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Star Citizen – Shattered Dreams

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  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,605
    edited December 2016
    Torval said:
    Remember when Smart predicted they would be bankrupt and had stopped production by January or February of this year revised from an early failure date? It never happened. It looks like Not-So-Smart is a over a year behind schedule in his trumped up failure campaign. His followers apparently still suckle at the teat of manufactured pandemonium.

    That gives me an idea. He could be the new Minister of Gaming in our new sovereign overlords cabinet.
    He simply under estimated the stupidity of people willing to keep sending them money. Or They had more money than he actually thought(and probably less than they claim). Or people are not being paid a going rate and just want to be part of history. Or any other number of excuses one could come up with.

    End of the day they havent released anything but a broken tech demo and a bunch of faked fancy closed system videos of purported 'gameplay'.

    All those Cons (pun definitely intended) were   months ago and what exactly has been implemented from them? Oh yeah thats right after the new year. SO when April and May and the summer of 17 starts and there isnt anything from Citizincon or gamescon or whatever other con they were a part of is still nonexistent then what?

    Yup ANOTHER round of cons to distract and confuse people, with MORE faked fancy videos of stuff theyre going to put in the game (even though NOTHING from ANY con has been put in yet, going back to 2013).

    Its a GREAT business model so why change.

    Oh and lets not forget the salespitch after evry one of them, and also this sale that started a couple days before Thanksgiving. While still delivering nothing, yet (according to their numbers) they have sold (raised) almost 7 million in a couple days.
  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    edited December 2016
    The game has been is full developement since 2012. A game of this scope takes time... 4 years isn't much. I easily give them 2 more years for the full package. Haters, give it a rest already. Are you paid by publishing compagny affair to see a prededent in a hugely successful game made without their approuval? Seriously...

    Serious? Actually, after 4 years I expect alpha and beta tests, not just for the people who got suckered into giving them money. Sorry but when a developer keeps  changing the focus to add more stuff, they are lost and that is not a good thing. Usually companies cut out stuff that is being put into a software project not adding more. A moving end line is not a good thing as is bodes failure.


    My wife works in the software industry and has seen many big projects fail because of this exact problem. One has to start limiting or excluding things to get back on time and the project out.


    I expect, the developer here expects to keep getting money from the people donating money and to never put out a game. Maybe I am jaded but this is what seems to be going on. After all,

    https://mmos.com/editorials/most-expensive-mmorpgs-ever-developed


    The game is getting up there on the list and it is barely playable (a friend is a donator to game).


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,637
    edited December 2016
    We can  whine about it all day long, every single day about it on this forums (or anywhere else), about the release date and the delays over what is overdue to deliver on this game.... It doesn't change anything. It's not going to them and demand "RELEASE IT NOW!" that is going to make it happen; we like it or not.

    I'm playing games, when there's updates and stuff is out to play on SC I do and I have fun with it. More of the same regurgitated drama that FOR SOME REASON we have to go through frequently. (that is by itself a repeat of the same stuff for well over a year now)


    Seriously guys why not just create a macro already as all that is being done here is COPY/PASTE the same thing over and over and over and over again like that changes anything?
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    rodarin said:
    Torval said:
    Remember when Smart predicted they would be bankrupt and had stopped production by January or February of this year revised from an early failure date? It never happened. It looks like Not-So-Smart is a over a year behind schedule in his trumped up failure campaign. His followers apparently still suckle at the teat of manufactured pandemonium.

    That gives me an idea. He could be the new Minister of Gaming in our new sovereign overlords cabinet.
    He simply under estimated the stupidity of people willing to keep sending them money. Or They had more money than he actually thought(and probably less than they claim). Or people are not being paid a going rate and just want to be part of history. Or any other number of excuses one could come up with.

    End of the day they havent released anything but a broken tech demo and a bunch of faked fancy closed system videos of purported 'gameplay'.

    All those Cons (pun definitely intended) were   months ago and what exactly has been implemented from them? Oh yeah thats right after the new year. SO when April and May and the summer of 17 starts and there isnt anything from Citizincon or gamescon or whatever other con they were a part of is still nonexistent then what?

    Yup ANOTHER round of cons to distract and confuse people, with MORE faked fancy videos of stuff theyre going to put in the game (even though NOTHING from ANY con has been put in yet, going back to 2013).

    Its a GREAT business model so why change.

    Oh and lets not forget the salespitch after evry one of them, and also this sale that started a couple days before Thanksgiving. While still delivering nothing, yet (according to their numbers) they have sold (raised) almost 7 million in a couple days.
    How anyone can look at what DS is doing (regardless of the outcome of SC) as anything more than a personal vendetta and smear campaign is beyond me at this point. SC itself has nothing to do with what DS is doing, it's completely apparent. 

     I get it; there are quite a few people who hate crowdfunding, look at SC as a scam, etc... Those are mostly reasonable opinions at this stage, based on the uncertainty of the project, what has transpired with deadlines/promises as well as the funding method. 

    Yet to let confirmation bias lead you to side with such a vendetta/agenda, it's something else entirely. To put it sensationally, it's essentially siding with the Devil, to face the mischievous nature of Loki.. You're pretty much supporting a devious scheme, only because you perceive his opponent to be mischievous. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited December 2016
    botrytis said:
    The game has been is full developement since 2012. A game of this scope takes time... 4 years isn't much. I easily give them 2 more years for the full package. Haters, give it a rest already. Are you paid by publishing compagny affair to see a prededent in a hugely successful game made without their approuval? Seriously...
    Serious? Actually, after 4 years I expect alpha and beta tests, not just for the people who got suckered into giving them money. Sorry but when a developer keeps  changing the focus to add more stuff, they are lost and that is not a good thing. Usually companies cut out stuff that is being put into a software project not adding more. A moving end line is not a good thing as is bodes failure.

    My wife works in the software industry and has seen many big projects fail because of this exact problem. One has to start limiting or excluding things to get back on time and the project out.

    I expect, the developer here expects to keep getting money from the people donating money and to never put out a game. Maybe I am jaded but this is what seems to be going on. After all,

    https://mmos.com/editorials/most-expensive-mmorpgs-ever-developed

    The game is getting up there on the list and it is barely playable (a friend is a donator to game).
    Its an error to think that the game has been in development for 4 years. Yes the KS finished 4 years ago but at that point in time there was "no company". The support structure that exists in a major company is huge. Starting "from scratch" takes a serious chunk of time.

    Yes scope is a key issue in how long a game takes. However paying staff is a pretty big deal as well. So de-scoping probably isn't an option - you can write the your <<it's doomed>> headline.

    How long is reasonable? Well after Bungee had worked up enough of a contract to persuade Activision to commit major (remember $500M statement) it took them c. 2.5 years. Not starting from scratch. And they finishing with a team of 540+ people. And I think a) Bungee did an excellent job and b) that Destiny is a quality game - some disagree and say there is no content etc. 

    Now projects get canned for various reasons as well but when it comes to games the reason is usually that the projected revenue is less than the estimated costs. Now having to raise all the funding has its problems - working in a goldfish bowl for example - but it does mean this reason is most unlikely to come to pass.

    As far as getting "up there on the list" money raised does not equal money spent - and if its not playable .... well people can decide since the alpha is out there. And that is what matters. Not the hype; not how long it has taken; not the unsupported attacks but the alpha. For good or ill the truth is out there.
  • adamlotus75adamlotus75 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    So let's say it takes 10 years to dev a game this big. They are 5 years in.  Would you say they are 50% complete? 40%? 30%? 5%?  By complete i mean: art assets, animations, economy, roles and associated gameplay, AI, 100 star systems, farming ships, mining, MMO numbers of players playing together, alien races, capital ships, optimisation, and all the other crap.

    So choose a number you think is accurate and extrapolate it out. How long will they take to finish this game? Do a simple multiplication. Then multiply the money by the same ratio. It will give you a ballpark.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited December 2016
    So let's say it takes 10 years to dev a game this big. They are 5 years in.  Would you say they are 50% complete? 40%? 30%? 5%?  By complete i mean: art assets, animations, economy, roles and associated gameplay, AI, 100 star systems, farming ships, mining, MMO numbers of players playing together, alien races, capital ships, optimisation, and all the other crap.

    So choose a number you think is accurate and extrapolate it out. How long will they take to finish this game? Do a simple multiplication. Then multiply the money by the same ratio. It will give you a ballpark.
    So what do you think they have spent so far? Most estimates are in the $60Ms I think - but I'm not that interested. So - using your 5 year number you understand - they have enough funding for another 5 years. See what I did there?
  • adamlotus75adamlotus75 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    Nice deflect - so im guessing you think they are 50% complete. Haha.

    Other estimates say they have spent $60m at Imaginarium alone. Constant constant reshoots at the worlds most exclusive mo cap studio, with Hollywood actors.

    It is very possible that the money is nearly all gone.

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    gervaise1 said:
    So let's say it takes 10 years to dev a game this big. They are 5 years in.  Would you say they are 50% complete? 40%? 30%? 5%?  By complete i mean: art assets, animations, economy, roles and associated gameplay, AI, 100 star systems, farming ships, mining, MMO numbers of players playing together, alien races, capital ships, optimisation, and all the other crap.

    So choose a number you think is accurate and extrapolate it out. How long will they take to finish this game? Do a simple multiplication. Then multiply the money by the same ratio. It will give you a ballpark.
    So what do you think they have spent so far? Most estimates are in the $60Ms I think - but I'm not that interested. So - using your 5 year number you understand - they have enough funding for another 5 years. See what I did there?
    They have probably spent 30 million alone this year on employee salaries alone. Who knows how much has been spent on contractors, cons, flying Chris all over the world, etc.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,637
    edited December 2016
    Other estimates say they have spent $60m at Imaginarium alone. Constant constant reshoots at the worlds most exclusive mo cap studio, with Hollywood actors.

    Reshoots were not made on it. Where are these estimates that 3 months on Imaginarium costed 60M?

    Aside of DS and the SA Forums if possible.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Nice deflect - so im guessing you think they are 50% complete. Haha.

    Other estimates say they have spent $60m at Imaginarium alone. Constant constant reshoots at the worlds most exclusive mo cap studio, with Hollywood actors.

    It is very possible that the money is nearly all gone.

    Did I suggest 50%? Ah a leading question! The alpha is out there. Which means that people can come up with their own "estimate" of how far along the game is since it will very much depend on what they expect. 

    My "feel" is that it won't be that simple. For better or for worse I think SC will be "progressively" rolled out. And that there will be conflicting pressures and desires around bug squashing, features, wipes and moving from pledges to sales along with new game releases. For SM - have to see how 2.6 plays out of course - but I think this could happen next year. They will still be able to roll out new stuff for it. And as a "subset" of SC it will be able to generate media coverage for SC.  

    Spend. Not a simple beast either. Commitment, liability, payment plans, exchange rates, in some cases maybe a % of downstream sales. A $60M spent at Imaginarium - must have got a huge discount when you factor in wages. The latest financial reports will be out there but commitments made to their subsidiaries have been for 12 months and there has been no doom posts about people leaving! So no they haven't spent all the money!

    Twelve months ago it was "there is no game", "no code", "they are all on a Caribbean island" etc. This years its Alpha + 1 year. And there is no hiding. Comment like "its unplayable" can be made but the truth is out there; and the converse is true - no hype is possible. However much they might like to hype stuff whatever they push has to be about to release. The alpha keeps them honest!


  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    edited December 2016
    Kefo said:
    gervaise1 said:
    So let's say it takes 10 years to dev a game this big. They are 5 years in.  Would you say they are 50% complete? 40%? 30%? 5%?  By complete i mean: art assets, animations, economy, roles and associated gameplay, AI, 100 star systems, farming ships, mining, MMO numbers of players playing together, alien races, capital ships, optimisation, and all the other crap.

    So choose a number you think is accurate and extrapolate it out. How long will they take to finish this game? Do a simple multiplication. Then multiply the money by the same ratio. It will give you a ballpark.
    So what do you think they have spent so far? Most estimates are in the $60Ms I think - but I'm not that interested. So - using your 5 year number you understand - they have enough funding for another 5 years. See what I did there?
    They have probably spent 30 million alone this year on employee salaries alone. Who knows how much has been spent on contractors, cons, flying Chris all over the world, etc.
    They have spend almost $40m alone on F42 for 2014/2015 (let alone 2016) and this is not a guess this is something you can read in their UK Annual Company Report.

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited December 2016
    Kefo said:
    gervaise1 said:
    So let's say it takes 10 years to dev a game this big. They are 5 years in.  Would you say they are 50% complete? 40%? 30%? 5%?  By complete i mean: art assets, animations, economy, roles and associated gameplay, AI, 100 star systems, farming ships, mining, MMO numbers of players playing together, alien races, capital ships, optimisation, and all the other crap.

    So choose a number you think is accurate and extrapolate it out. How long will they take to finish this game? Do a simple multiplication. Then multiply the money by the same ratio. It will give you a ballpark.
    So what do you think they have spent so far? Most estimates are in the $60Ms I think - but I'm not that interested. So - using your 5 year number you understand - they have enough funding for another 5 years. See what I did there?
    They have probably spent 30 million alone this year on employee salaries alone. Who knows how much has been spent on contractors, cons, flying Chris all over the world, etc.
    They have spend almost $40m alone on F42 for 2014/2015 (let alone 2016) and this is not a guess this is something you can read in their UK Annual Company Report.
    Link for the $40M. Alternatively there is this one but you will have to point out the $40M ..... 
     
    Direct link to PDF stored on Companies House UK 


    There is indeed 2016 to add - and tax credits and so forth.

    However $60M on Imaginarium, and $40M for F42 for 2014/2015,and the islands in Caribbean and the Pacific RSI sure is making the money go a long way! 

  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    Muke said:
    Maurgrim said:
    The game will get released that I'm sure about, but It wont come even close to that dream list that Chris keeps adding on.
    It will release like ARK: Survival did.

    1-let ppl pay for it claiming it is alpha
    2-release official DLCs for $xxxx
    3-with any complaint about bugs or bad content: refer to the alpha status.
    4- goto 1)
    Chris learned from the greatest snake-oil salesman of the MMO genre: Richard Garriott. Two peas in a pod.
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Member UncommonPosts: 1,332
    edited December 2016
    gervaise1 said:
    botrytis said:
    The game has been is full developement since 2012. A game of this scope takes time... 4 years isn't much. I easily give them 2 more years for the full package. Haters, give it a rest already. Are you paid by publishing compagny affair to see a prededent in a hugely successful game made without their approuval? Seriously...
    Serious? Actually, after 4 years I expect alpha and beta tests, not just for the people who got suckered into giving them money. Sorry but when a developer keeps  changing the focus to add more stuff, they are lost and that is not a good thing. Usually companies cut out stuff that is being put into a software project not adding more. A moving end line is not a good thing as is bodes failure.

    My wife works in the software industry and has seen many big projects fail because of this exact problem. One has to start limiting or excluding things to get back on time and the project out.

    I expect, the developer here expects to keep getting money from the people donating money and to never put out a game. Maybe I am jaded but this is what seems to be going on. After all,

    https://mmos.com/editorials/most-expensive-mmorpgs-ever-developed

    The game is getting up there on the list and it is barely playable (a friend is a donator to game).
    Its an error to think that the game has been in development for 4 years. Yes the KS finished 4 years ago but at that point in time there was "no company". The support structure that exists in a major company is huge. Starting "from scratch" takes a serious chunk of time.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Citizen

    According to the Wiki page development started in 2011. So development has been at least 4 years at this point.

    Which in and of itself isn't problem. The problem is the end is nowhere in sight. 
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,637
    edited December 2016
    Atlan99 said:
    Which in and of itself isn't problem. The problem is the end is nowhere in sight. 
    That's a problem for you really.

    It's quite clear the overall backers problems are more about the way they communicate unrealistic / over-optimistic dates, than the fact we're in for something that won't fully release anytime soon. We already know that!

    If you don't accept that, simply don't back SC, if you're a backer, there's no lack of info around to go after a refund; if you don't care about that then find other games to play. Otherwise what happens is just one un-healthy obsession.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited December 2016
    All these years waiting for something that will more-than-likely hit Early Access first.
  • adamlotus75adamlotus75 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    Except when he flies first class to Hawaii. Or more likely business class.
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    edited December 2016
    Atlan99 said:
    gervaise1 said:
    botrytis said:
    The game has been is full developement since 2012. A game of this scope takes time... 4 years isn't much. I easily give them 2 more years for the full package. Haters, give it a rest already. Are you paid by publishing compagny affair to see a prededent in a hugely successful game made without their approuval? Seriously...
    Serious? Actually, after 4 years I expect alpha and beta tests, not just for the people who got suckered into giving them money. Sorry but when a developer keeps  changing the focus to add more stuff, they are lost and that is not a good thing. Usually companies cut out stuff that is being put into a software project not adding more. A moving end line is not a good thing as is bodes failure.

    My wife works in the software industry and has seen many big projects fail because of this exact problem. One has to start limiting or excluding things to get back on time and the project out.

    I expect, the developer here expects to keep getting money from the people donating money and to never put out a game. Maybe I am jaded but this is what seems to be going on. After all,

    https://mmos.com/editorials/most-expensive-mmorpgs-ever-developed

    The game is getting up there on the list and it is barely playable (a friend is a donator to game).
    Its an error to think that the game has been in development for 4 years. Yes the KS finished 4 years ago but at that point in time there was "no company". The support structure that exists in a major company is huge. Starting "from scratch" takes a serious chunk of time.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Citizen

    According to the Wiki page development started in 2011. So development has been at least 4 years at this point.

    Which in and of itself isn't problem. The problem is the end is nowhere in sight. 
    Other Companies don't start their projects with full swing, too.
    I never understood why the "rabid" fans count the planning on other projects but never on the SC timeline ... also none of this great long time projects had a 5+ year pre-Alpha like SC has.
    Edit: except maybe Wildstar or DNF :)

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    At this point, I expect SC to "launch" as something little more than a playable alpha, as a means for CR and others to avoid lawsuits and potential criminal charges.

    The game, as promised, will not, or even more specifically can't be delivered in good shape at this point.

  • KellerKeller Member UncommonPosts: 602
    Atlan99 said:
    "Shattered Dreams"

    Cry me a river, lol
    I can see how you got an Epic rating with such quality posts.
    Yup, I got an epic rating because I have both a sense of humour and the ability to never take things too seriously. Events in the game industry are not of world-changing significance... :D
    Guess you have never been trampled by a Pokémon-Go herd?

  • Sassy_Gay_UnicornSassy_Gay_Unicorn Member UncommonPosts: 316
    Atlan99 said:
    Thank you for the link. It was an enjoyable read. DS is, if nothing else (I don't know much about him other than the general lore known amongst all hardcore MMO fans), a good writer. 

    My problem is that I am too ignorant about the tech to know if he is making valid points or not. And ironically, one of his links at the bottom of the article ( http://www.pcgamer.com/inside-the-hardcore-fanbase-keeping-the-star-citizen-dream-alive/ ) actually made me a lot more sympathetic towards the SC fan base. I now have a better understanding of why gamers would spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a game still in development. 

    I'm not a space game kind of guy, but we all have dreams. And I really hope Star Citizen delivers everything it has promised for those people who have so much invested emotionally. I think that as gamers we should want every MMO to succeed. 

    I don't know if SC is a scam. Could be. But I believe that something is being built, or attempted to be built. 

    I wish them luck and hope that SC turns out to be the game its fans are craving. Time will tell. I won't invest any of my money into it, mainly because it's not my genre and I have doubts, but if it (the PU) does come to pass in the form that has been promised I'll certainly pony my cash up for a little mining ship and have some fun.
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    ...

    ... 

    I wish them luck and hope that SC turns out to be the game its fans are craving. Time will tell. I won't invest any of my money into it, mainly because it's not my genre and I have doubts, but if it (the PU) does come to pass in the form that has been promised I'll certainly pony my cash up for a little mining ship and have some fun.
    I wish them luck too. Space opera is definitely one of my favourite genre's, Freelancer (2003) is probably my all-time fave in that regard.

    I've not spent a dime on SC yet, mainly because I was very sceptical of them achieving anything I'd want to play. A small-scale version of EVE is not what I'm looking for, I played the large-scale version for 6 years already. EVE on a small scale would just be a deathmatch arena...

    I intend to play SC as I would play any other F2P or B2P. Minimal investment upfront, but quite happy to pay a "premium sub" if it offers good value. I will "earn" my ships via game play or not at all...
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,605
    My oh my how people have already forgotten this little gem

    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/327124/from-bdsse-to-minimum-viable-product

    What was that maybe 6 months ago?

    Now people have been conned into thinking everything is back on track to rel;ease the greatest game ever thought of.
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    rodarin said:
    My oh my how people have already forgotten this little gem

    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/327124/from-bdsse-to-minimum-viable-product

    What was that maybe 6 months ago?

    Now people have been conned into thinking everything is back on track to rel;ease the greatest game ever thought of.

    Never underestimate the power of:


    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

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