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The Simple Reason a 15$ Subscription Doesn't Work Anymore

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  • DrDread74DrDread74 Member UncommonPosts: 308
    Ceironx said:
    I think people are forgetting that companies earn millions if not billions of dollars while the guy who fixes your toilet while swimming in shit gets just enough to fill his stomach. Idk man...

    That guy is only fixing your toilet so he can pay for his MMO Sub =)

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  • duari91duari91 Member UncommonPosts: 34
    The reason why P2P MMO's are going by the dinosaur is, well, because ALL MMO's are on the decline.

    I work in the game industry as a publisher of MMORPGs, and I can tell you that the product itself is horrible these days. Back in the day, an average paying user could easily drop 35-50 bucks ARPPU on a F2P mmo with an item shop. Today, we are lucky to drain out 20 bucks for the average paying user. This is on good titles too.

    Economy lives and dies by supply and demand. The gaming industry is not immune to that. Inherently, the users are the primary reason why MMORPGs don't work in general. Users spend less on the game, the devs cut costs, advertising takes a hit, and the budget for the next MMO in development is half of what it was on the previous title.

    Now we are in 2016, with less and less AAA MORPGs under development. By 2026 I think the entire genre will be dead, unless Devs come up with a way to reduce dev times and running costs.
  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318
    Eldurian said:
    I don't know the exact date that 15$ subs became a thing. I believe it was around 2000. It definitely was by 2003. Check this out though:

    Inflation Calculator

    Put in the year you played your first 15 and the year you played your first 15$ sub game and hit "Calculate".

    Based on my estimation of 2000, a 15$ sub should now cost people 21$. Yet subscription prices have not increased whatsoever. People just want to go back to the good old days of 15$ subs but it's a lot like people who want to go back to the good old days of five cent coffee. It's been 16 years. We went through a major recession during that time period. 15$ doesn't pay the bills anymore.

    No consumers have ever shown any indication of being tolerant to them jacking up the prices though. Any MMO that did would be massacred by public opinion as "greedy money grabbers." So they gave us cash shops instead. That's on us.

    rofl. That doesn't mean it needs to be f2p. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,911
    duari91 said:
    The reason why P2P MMO's are going by the dinosaur is, well, because ALL MMO's are on the decline.

    I work in the game industry as a publisher of MMORPGs, and I can tell you that the product itself is horrible these days. Back in the day, an average paying user could easily drop 35-50 bucks ARPPU on a F2P mmo with an item shop. Today, we are lucky to drain out 20 bucks for the average paying user. This is on good titles too.

    Economy lives and dies by supply and demand. The gaming industry is not immune to that. Inherently, the users are the primary reason why MMORPGs don't work in general. Users spend less on the game, the devs cut costs, advertising takes a hit, and the budget for the next MMO in development is half of what it was on the previous title.

    Now we are in 2016, with less and less AAA MORPGs under development. By 2026 I think the entire genre will be dead, unless Devs come up with a way to reduce dev times and running costs.
    I will agree with you on one point. The MMO "product" these days is pretty horrible.

    Maybe if better games were made people would want to pay for them again.

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  • duari91duari91 Member UncommonPosts: 34
    Kyleran said:
    duari91 said:
    The reason why P2P MMO's are going by the dinosaur is, well, because ALL MMO's are on the decline.

    I work in the game industry as a publisher of MMORPGs, and I can tell you that the product itself is horrible these days. Back in the day, an average paying user could easily drop 35-50 bucks ARPPU on a F2P mmo with an item shop. Today, we are lucky to drain out 20 bucks for the average paying user. This is on good titles too.

    Economy lives and dies by supply and demand. The gaming industry is not immune to that. Inherently, the users are the primary reason why MMORPGs don't work in general. Users spend less on the game, the devs cut costs, advertising takes a hit, and the budget for the next MMO in development is half of what it was on the previous title.

    Now we are in 2016, with less and less AAA MORPGs under development. By 2026 I think the entire genre will be dead, unless Devs come up with a way to reduce dev times and running costs.
    I will agree with you on one point. The MMO "product" these days is pretty horrible.

    Maybe if better games were made people would want to pay for them again.
    Unfortunately, "Better" is now an Objective term. A product derived from the 90s/early 2000s wont cut it anymore. That means you either need to go the route of PvP (like Camelot Unchained) or drop a few hundred million into a product to get it to the point where people would want to play it.

    Its not worth the risk, and even if my company wanted to do something like that (and had the money for it), I would strongly campaign against it. Not when you can produce a trash FPS product like the CoD series, charge 60 for it, and just reskin it every other year.

    Like I said, the genre is only saved once a more cost effective route can be discovered.
  • AdoniAdoni Member UncommonPosts: 384
    I am fine with paying 15$ a month for a month's worth of entertainment. I don't go out much, don't go to the movies and it's a good value for me. I pay 12.99$ a month for Ulitma Online and I would pay 15.00$ but not more. I have not been impressed with any new mmo that has come out since World Of Warcraft and I will go back and forth there.

    image
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,011
    I am find with paying $15 or $25 for a good MMO.  Problem is there is few good MMOs out there.  P2P will always be a superior model to customers than any other model because Players either pay or they do not.  This Free Loading shit is just BS and it causes companies to nickle and dime people in the cash shop for Free Loading.  
  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,377
    The problem with $15 sub has nothing to do with inflation.

    The problem with $15 sub is these days there are a lot of other different type of digital entertainment products that is also occupying your time/money for same price or less.

    Nowadays there are Netflix, music streaming services, mobile app games etc that is also $15 or less per month, it makes it hard for people to justify paying $15 a month just for 1 game.

    To compete against other entertainment products if an MMO is planning pure sub-based these days their price point needs to be much lower - nothing to do with inflation, just the natural evolution of the amount of distractions/cheap thrills that we are getting these days.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,011
    duari91 said:
    The reason why P2P MMO's are going by the dinosaur is, well, because ALL MMO's are on the decline.

    I work in the game industry as a publisher of MMORPGs, and I can tell you that the product itself is horrible these days. Back in the day, an average paying user could easily drop 35-50 bucks ARPPU on a F2P mmo with an item shop. Today, we are lucky to drain out 20 bucks for the average paying user. This is on good titles too.

    Economy lives and dies by supply and demand. The gaming industry is not immune to that. Inherently, the users are the primary reason why MMORPGs don't work in general. Users spend less on the game, the devs cut costs, advertising takes a hit, and the budget for the next MMO in development is half of what it was on the previous title.

    Now we are in 2016, with less and less AAA MORPGs under development. By 2026 I think the entire genre will be dead, unless Devs come up with a way to reduce dev times and running costs.
    The reason why MMOs are in decline is because Every game in the last 10 years has done a Copy and Paste of WOW.  Now if that was only 2 to 5 games total not a big deal, but you have LOTRO, Rift, SWTOR, DDO, and the list goes on and on.  You have AAA titles that did this and Bullshit browser based MMOs.  There is little difference in MMOs today between games.

    Let's add to that, that every MMO since 2008 as become more and more single player based, or lobby based game, added in tools like LFD or LFR and got away from the Social aspect of MMOs which the Genera was built on.  So Today Who the hell is going to keep playing a game when they have no friends in the game.  They dont these people cancel their account and leave the game then come back for 2 or 3 months and repeat.   

    Let's also add in the fact that MMOs are like a fast food joint now.  How long does it take for a new WOW expansion or any MMO for that matter to clear all the content?  3 months if that for hardcore players, and if you are a casual player 2 months because you just Queue your ass until you seen everything then you are board.  MMOs need to be time sink from meeting people and making friends to leveling to gearing.   Now there is a Balance, if all your game is, is like FFXIV where the end game is 4 or 5 bosses in an instance then yes leveling should be fast.  Why?  Because the people who want to raid like that want to get to end game as fast as possible.  I know because I get tired of leveling today in a game which puts the most focus on end game.  Now if you are a game like SWG Leveling as fast as possible didnt mean shit outside of grinding for your Jedi.  (Pre-CU)  So It didnt matter if you were a master bounty hunter or not because skill did play a large role in both PVE and PVP.  Also who your friends are played a role.  

    Now you can turn Themepark MMOs into a time sink as well and have a longer leveling curve.  However your Raiding will suffer as it should.   You would get a Higher quality of Group play game play if you focused on small groups 4 to 8 man content.  These are easy for Casual schedule players to get into and if done right where you sync everyone to the Level Cap and give them all their abilities for the instance run they could start on 1 Tier of End Game content.  Even give them gear for end game plus give larger XP bonuses for clearing Instances.  But here is the key to that.  No Automated LF Group tools and Require CC and teamwork.  Think Vanilla WOW/TBC Dungeons.   You do that and you make this content require Social Skills and give out larger XP rewards and you will see a better overall community.  You will also see players saying HEY I found a group I love running with and keeping their subs.  


  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 407
    edited December 2016
    Nanfoodle said:
    Forgrimm said:
    I'd gladly pay $21 a month to have access to everything and not be nickel-and-dimed in a cash shop. Cash shops weren't introduced because game devs didn't think people would pay a higher monthly sub cost though, they were introduced because for the majority of games, a cash shop is more profitable for the company, even more so than it would be for them to offer an increased monthly sub rate.
    We made cash shops a thing and I know when that happens. Many years ago Blizzard put what the community calls the "Sparkle Pony" mount. Over the weekend they sold 25 mills worth from Friday night to Sunday. Blizzard is not hurting for cash but that moment made every game company stop and go hmmm. Was not long after that services we use to get for free became micro dings. Again not because companies were broke but because we were willing to pay for stupid things we used to earn by playing the game. Now you dont need to play at all. Like that guy the spent 25k in RL money to have a maxed out char in EVE. 
    Eh, they already knew the sale of items and conviences could be really profitable.. they'd watched the RMT scene for years - people spending $15 on a subscription, then several times that on a single weapon, character, leveling service, currency, etc.

    Thing was, RMT had an extreme stigma attached to it - back when most players actually cared more about the experience of playing the game, than simply "getting to the end ASAP", and demanding to have all their loot "now!". Engaging in RMT was highly frowned upon and one would be considered a pariah if they were known to do it. Being a legit player, who earned everything through gameplay was respected in a MMORPG's community. Also, devs cared more and were more interested in maintaining the integrity of the worlds they'd created. They saw the damage unmitigated RMT could do, and so they fought to prevent it.

    For devs prior to WoW's success (including, even, Blizzard I would say), it was about creating a great MMORPG experience to keep players engaged and entertained for as long as possible - that was how they'd make their money. That $15 each month was basically the players saying "I enjoy the work you're doing, and find it worth the cost-of-entry, so I will pay for another month so I can continue to enjoy myself". For developers since, it's become all about making as much money as possible, for as little effort as possible - ergo cookie-cutter MMO design, simpler/dumbed-down gameplay, increased soloability (it's easier to develop and tune content for one person than it is for a group), instancing, cash shops/microtransactions, and so on.


  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,498
    duari91 said:
    Kyleran said:
    duari91 said:
    The reason why P2P MMO's are going by the dinosaur is, well, because ALL MMO's are on the decline.

    I work in the game industry as a publisher of MMORPGs, and I can tell you that the product itself is horrible these days. Back in the day, an average paying user could easily drop 35-50 bucks ARPPU on a F2P mmo with an item shop. Today, we are lucky to drain out 20 bucks for the average paying user. This is on good titles too.

    Economy lives and dies by supply and demand. The gaming industry is not immune to that. Inherently, the users are the primary reason why MMORPGs don't work in general. Users spend less on the game, the devs cut costs, advertising takes a hit, and the budget for the next MMO in development is half of what it was on the previous title.

    Now we are in 2016, with less and less AAA MORPGs under development. By 2026 I think the entire genre will be dead, unless Devs come up with a way to reduce dev times and running costs.
    I will agree with you on one point. The MMO "product" these days is pretty horrible.

    Maybe if better games were made people would want to pay for them again.
    Unfortunately, "Better" is now an Objective term. A product derived from the 90s/early 2000s wont cut it anymore. That means you either need to go the route of PvP (like Camelot Unchained) or drop a few hundred million into a product to get it to the point where people would want to play it.

    Its not worth the risk, and even if my company wanted to do something like that (and had the money for it), I would strongly campaign against it. Not when you can produce a trash FPS product like the CoD series, charge 60 for it, and just reskin it every other year.

    Like I said, the genre is only saved once a more cost effective route can be discovered.
    People like you are the problem.  You only see what exists and have no vision for changing such.  Perhaps you should look for another line of work because you are gumming up the works for more innovative people.
  • LuidenLuiden Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Didn't read this thread, just wanted to say that I would pay up to $50.00 a month for a quality game that DID NOT include a cash shop, marketplace, P2W model, F2P model etc.  A quality game that let's me suspend my disbelief and not focus on in game shopping.  If I want to shop, I can go to Amazon and buy sheit.  I want a service/game that will take me to another place and 'entertain' me.
  • thompdre12thompdre12 Member UncommonPosts: 3
    This is probably one of those industries that needs to undergo a mass exodus/culling to create incentive for developing MMO's to a better standard again. I really only played vanilla WoW back in that time of emerging MMO's. (never played LOTRO or anything else until many years later) After attempting a comeback many years later to try WoW again and a few other random MMO's, I wasn't impressed with the directions the mechanics went. LOTRO has that messaging that says "Hey, if you sub, you can turn in this quest right here instead of going back to the quest giver." Huh. Other than saving me some time, what is the point of that? To make the game less realistic? Oh look, now in WoW I can dungeon queue my way from lvl 14 - MAX without ever questing again. Fun, but I guess I'll not be making friends in game any more.

    Which brings me to the point of all this. I think for people who like the idea of a sub (myself included) are people who want to go on a grand story epic adventure and meet people along the way, like the old fantasy books describe. The MMO part is heavy on the group experience for us. Otherwise, I can play through a grand story by myself in a RPG, or if I want instant intensity I can play Overwatch for an hour. People that probably enjoy the cash shop or other models are likely less into the realism of the fantasy world they play in and more just want to get to whatever part of the game it is (pvp, raiding, whatever) that they enjoy doing over and over. Plus many people that were into the old models of gameplay are aging, have spouses, kids, obligations that don't give them time to play 3 hours every night and 8 every weekend.

    I loved WoW because it was rewarding to put in the time. Seeing awesome gear and getting awesome gear was a badge of honor. Running everywhere was what an adventurer would have to do if they didn't want to pony up cash for a windstrider. Getting a mount proved you knew how to earn and save up money. 3-manning a dungeon successfully brought personal pride. I would pay a sub for that sort of thing again provided I had the time to invest again. That's why Nost was so popular with people like me. We had to earn it again, in a way that nobody had an advantage over others. Same reason I love Overwatch. Everyone is always equal.

    The industry will never die, but I do hope it goes the way of the auto industry (this time with no bailouts) so that we can essentially start over again and get another few years of decent mechanics from the style of MMO's I like until the cash creep kills it once again. (Notice I said "I like" meaning it is what I like. Not what you or anyone else should like)
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,933
    Problems with this genre to me.  It's devolved into game play and majority audience that doesn't want or need to be MMOs.  Small group coop, Arena PvP and small raids can be done with regular multilayer games.  Probably done better.  You can even include the lobby cities.

    The genre never corrected it's failure's in gameplay.  It changed it's payment model that requires people with large amounts of money to subsidize the game.  That instead of figuring out why most people don't want to pay for you gameplay.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,016
    Talonsin said:
    I drop $15 for a simple lunch so getting a months worth of game access for that same price is crazy awesome.  Sadly, many gamers have trouble seeing this. 

    If Trion would release an Archeage server with no cash shop, increased labor, sub only with no free players/no plex and guarantee I could get two 24x24 land plots, I would pay $30 a month for that.

     
    I never thought i would say this but if Trion opens a server with no cash shop i would include AA on my list of subscription games to play on and off (along with WoW and FFXIV).




  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,034
    Kyleran said:
    duari91 said:
    The reason why P2P MMO's are going by the dinosaur is, well, because ALL MMO's are on the decline.

    I work in the game industry as a publisher of MMORPGs, and I can tell you that the product itself is horrible these days. Back in the day, an average paying user could easily drop 35-50 bucks ARPPU on a F2P mmo with an item shop. Today, we are lucky to drain out 20 bucks for the average paying user. This is on good titles too.

    Economy lives and dies by supply and demand. The gaming industry is not immune to that. Inherently, the users are the primary reason why MMORPGs don't work in general. Users spend less on the game, the devs cut costs, advertising takes a hit, and the budget for the next MMO in development is half of what it was on the previous title.

    Now we are in 2016, with less and less AAA MORPGs under development. By 2026 I think the entire genre will be dead, unless Devs come up with a way to reduce dev times and running costs.
    I will agree with you on one point. The MMO "product" these days is pretty horrible.

    Maybe if better games were made people would want to pay for them again.
    I think back to when we used to go to stores like Compusa and buy PC games....If they would have offered many games for free and a few to buy I think most of us would walk out with the free ones wouldnt we?
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,300
    It's simple inflation.  Not all things inflate in tandom.  Food costs can come down or up, while video entertainment goes through the roof.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • duari91duari91 Member UncommonPosts: 34
    edited December 2016
    Ozmodan said:
    duari91 said:
    Kyleran said:
    duari91 said:
    The reason why P2P MMO's are going by the dinosaur is, well, because ALL MMO's are on the decline.

    I work in the game industry as a publisher of MMORPGs, and I can tell you that the product itself is horrible these days. Back in the day, an average paying user could easily drop 35-50 bucks ARPPU on a F2P mmo with an item shop. Today, we are lucky to drain out 20 bucks for the average paying user. This is on good titles too.

    Economy lives and dies by supply and demand. The gaming industry is not immune to that. Inherently, the users are the primary reason why MMORPGs don't work in general. Users spend less on the game, the devs cut costs, advertising takes a hit, and the budget for the next MMO in development is half of what it was on the previous title.

    Now we are in 2016, with less and less AAA MORPGs under development. By 2026 I think the entire genre will be dead, unless Devs come up with a way to reduce dev times and running costs.
    I will agree with you on one point. The MMO "product" these days is pretty horrible.

    Maybe if better games were made people would want to pay for them again.
    Unfortunately, "Better" is now an Objective term. A product derived from the 90s/early 2000s wont cut it anymore. That means you either need to go the route of PvP (like Camelot Unchained) or drop a few hundred million into a product to get it to the point where people would want to play it.

    Its not worth the risk, and even if my company wanted to do something like that (and had the money for it), I would strongly campaign against it. Not when you can produce a trash FPS product like the CoD series, charge 60 for it, and just reskin it every other year.

    Like I said, the genre is only saved once a more cost effective route can be discovered.
    People like you are the problem.  You only see what exists and have no vision for changing such.  Perhaps you should look for another line of work because you are gumming up the works for more innovative people.
    I don't think so. I am in this line of work because I am good at it, I make my company a lot of money, and I love video games.

    People like me are the reasons why MMOs get made. No money, no game.

    What you don't understand, is that there are currently good business reasons for not producing/developing MMORPGs. If you understood what the real overhead costs were, you wouldnt be producing/developing them either.

    At the end of the day, people like me are paving the way for more cost effective ways to create these products. Do you want WoW clones for the next 20 years, or do you want something that has improved/brings something new to the genre? You don't get that by dumping millions of dollars to produce the same product. The genre needs to hurt for a while before it can evolve.

    We are seeing this with Crowfall and Camelot Unchained. Which may be the answer to where the genre needs to go for the future. Let's wait and see.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,945
    This is a good point. Shouldn't prices go down since everything is easier to make and manage?

    image

  • duari91duari91 Member UncommonPosts: 34
    This is a good point. Shouldn't prices go down since everything is easier to make and manage?
    They should go F2P, or B2P like Guild Wars. In fact, Guild Wars is one of the best examples of item shops done right. The titles that I manage make more as F2P than a P2P title would. A lot of companies today have the reasoning, if they charge you 60 for the box, then 15 per month thereafter, they can get an ROI much faster. 

    I see why companies believe this, but they are wrong. For example, If SWTOR was B2P (like Guild Wars) right out of the gate, they would have made back their initial investment way quicker. The advertisement angle of a  game with no monthly charge brings in way more users than a monthly sub would. You'd get more box sales, and users feel more comfortable purchasing from the item shop. It would not be uncommon to see a title like SWTOR to command a 35 dollar+ ARPPU, whereas a P2P title is limited at 15 dollars ARPPU (or whatever their monthly charge is).

    Just my 2 cents, but my personal work experience tells me F2P/B2P is the route for the short term.
  • DauzqulDauzqul Member RarePosts: 1,980
    I wouldn't mind paying a sub. What I would mind is them forcing a cash shop down my throat even after a sub.
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