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Chronciles of Elyria - Not Pay to Win
simon155
Member UncommonPosts: 53
It's the subject of much discussion, because quite frankly the game
looks awesome. We're talking dynamic worlds with vast scales of AI
animals and more, with finite resources, aging, player building, combat,
kingdoms, flexible contract systems, exploration and discovery. The list goes on, and it's quite unlike and other MMO I've seen to date. On top of that, it's not even in Alpha and looks great!
Game site below:
https://chroniclesofelyria.com/
First, a disclaimer. People often misquote or misinterpret. If you want to get to the bottom of things, go visit the official forum and check the dev journals and design notes for the latest, most accurate information, but bear in mind this is a game under development. Things are moving along really well from what we've seen, but you never know what'll change. Above all, never rely on forums, especially places like this, for reliable facts.
There's a bit of misinformation floating about, so let's tackle the first subject:
"Pay to Win."
As far as most of the community are concerned, Chronicles of Elyria is NOT pay to win.
Following launch there are NO plans for any financial means to get a leg up in the world. You're all playing on the same terms.
Any rank or status you achieve in the world can be lost. Anyone could in theory work their way up the ranks in time from a lowly peasant to a King. Obtaining that rank does NOT ensure you keep it. There may be assassinations, wars, Dukes obtaining a cassus beli and means to challenge your rule, and more. This is a fully dynamic world, and as such, much can change. The pitch is fairness to all, but not equality for all.
So, what's all this pay to win nonsense about? Well, before launch, if you hurry over the the Chronicles of Elyria store, you can sign up to back at a higher tier. This simply helps the developers fund the games development, which so far looks nothing like your bog standard MMO game, and has a very large community getting very excited about it, including myself. Needless to say, the developers really do seem to value everyone in the community, though it seems there's the odd bad-egg in the community who is over demanding of attention. Caspian and SBS are a very approachable bunch though and it seems trying their hardest to develop the game that people really want, something that has been a gaping hole in the market for a very long time.
What does the higher tier give you? Well, if for example you were to back as a count, you would begin the game in one of the "Count" positions. Others may be occupied by NPCs or other players. There are various rewards, Aesthetic rewards like commemorative plagues you can re-make if lost. Others, you may lose permanently. Next, a count does NOT own an entire county. He simply manages certain aspects of it, including the county coffers. Stealing from them may result in his prompt downfall. These differing ranks, more than anything, change your game experience, to an increasingly strategic one.
Look into the detailed design journals and the official postings, as I really can't do the game justice myself on here. Needless to say, I plan to back as a Count, and I know that I could lose it. The game is looking awesome, and the design to date is so different from the market norm that I can't wait to get stuck it.
I have no ambitions myself for rising through the ranks and becoming a duke. I'd be tempted to pass the title on, but perhaps if I make it I'll give it a go. What would you do?
The facts:
1. This is NOT pay to win. Most of the community have said so. The developers have said so.
2. People who say it is invariably have no idea what they think "winning is".
3. Anything you can commit to upfront to help fund the game, you may lose.
4. Those backing at higher tiers are accepting this risk, but supporting the game.
5. You can lose property, mounts, items and more.
6. There are legal frameworks in place, so thieves can be punished, but this does not prevent illegal activity.
7. This game is quite unlike any other MMO to date.
8. The "Exposition store" where you can buy the higher tier backing options is ONLY open until the game launches. It's not an ongoing "pay to get a foot up". As such, from the moment the game goes fully live, EVERYONE can begin gaining or losing their wealth.
9. Playing as a higher tier changes your game experience to a more strategic one. It doesn't make you "win". If you're aiming to be a bold warrior and adventurer, hunting the most dangerous, strangest and rarest creatures in the world, in many respects, a rise in rank may prove a disadvantage. Look into fame and spirit loss yourself.
Game site below:
https://chroniclesofelyria.com/
First, a disclaimer. People often misquote or misinterpret. If you want to get to the bottom of things, go visit the official forum and check the dev journals and design notes for the latest, most accurate information, but bear in mind this is a game under development. Things are moving along really well from what we've seen, but you never know what'll change. Above all, never rely on forums, especially places like this, for reliable facts.
There's a bit of misinformation floating about, so let's tackle the first subject:
"Pay to Win."
As far as most of the community are concerned, Chronicles of Elyria is NOT pay to win.
Following launch there are NO plans for any financial means to get a leg up in the world. You're all playing on the same terms.
Any rank or status you achieve in the world can be lost. Anyone could in theory work their way up the ranks in time from a lowly peasant to a King. Obtaining that rank does NOT ensure you keep it. There may be assassinations, wars, Dukes obtaining a cassus beli and means to challenge your rule, and more. This is a fully dynamic world, and as such, much can change. The pitch is fairness to all, but not equality for all.
So, what's all this pay to win nonsense about? Well, before launch, if you hurry over the the Chronicles of Elyria store, you can sign up to back at a higher tier. This simply helps the developers fund the games development, which so far looks nothing like your bog standard MMO game, and has a very large community getting very excited about it, including myself. Needless to say, the developers really do seem to value everyone in the community, though it seems there's the odd bad-egg in the community who is over demanding of attention. Caspian and SBS are a very approachable bunch though and it seems trying their hardest to develop the game that people really want, something that has been a gaping hole in the market for a very long time.
What does the higher tier give you? Well, if for example you were to back as a count, you would begin the game in one of the "Count" positions. Others may be occupied by NPCs or other players. There are various rewards, Aesthetic rewards like commemorative plagues you can re-make if lost. Others, you may lose permanently. Next, a count does NOT own an entire county. He simply manages certain aspects of it, including the county coffers. Stealing from them may result in his prompt downfall. These differing ranks, more than anything, change your game experience, to an increasingly strategic one.
Look into the detailed design journals and the official postings, as I really can't do the game justice myself on here. Needless to say, I plan to back as a Count, and I know that I could lose it. The game is looking awesome, and the design to date is so different from the market norm that I can't wait to get stuck it.
I have no ambitions myself for rising through the ranks and becoming a duke. I'd be tempted to pass the title on, but perhaps if I make it I'll give it a go. What would you do?
The facts:
1. This is NOT pay to win. Most of the community have said so. The developers have said so.
2. People who say it is invariably have no idea what they think "winning is".
3. Anything you can commit to upfront to help fund the game, you may lose.
4. Those backing at higher tiers are accepting this risk, but supporting the game.
5. You can lose property, mounts, items and more.
6. There are legal frameworks in place, so thieves can be punished, but this does not prevent illegal activity.
7. This game is quite unlike any other MMO to date.
8. The "Exposition store" where you can buy the higher tier backing options is ONLY open until the game launches. It's not an ongoing "pay to get a foot up". As such, from the moment the game goes fully live, EVERYONE can begin gaining or losing their wealth.
9. Playing as a higher tier changes your game experience to a more strategic one. It doesn't make you "win". If you're aiming to be a bold warrior and adventurer, hunting the most dangerous, strangest and rarest creatures in the world, in many respects, a rise in rank may prove a disadvantage. Look into fame and spirit loss yourself.
Post edited by simon155 on
Comments
Feel free to have a different opinion but to me this is clearly one of the most over the top P2W games I have seen.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
1. You can lose anything you buy to another player, even an NPC potentially, with nothing left to show for your money.
2. The backing options are ONLY available PRE-launch to help players to define kingdoms, towns and more, and make the world better prepared for new players. This isn't a "keep throwing money in to stay ahead game".
3. Starting out with extra furniture does not make you "win a game"
4. Many MMOs sell aesthetic goods for $, which don't offer game advantages, so we should steer clear of false definitions of "IP for $" equating to pay to win.
5. Land can be lost. Buildings can be lost. Resources are finite. Mounts can be lost. Siege weapons can be lost. There is no permanent advantage.
6. Elyria is a world filled with inequality. This isn't a "normal" MMO. In your bog standard MMO, there IS no King. All players are equal. In Elyria, ANY player can potentially rise through the ranks and depose another. A King is NOT equal to a peasant, but reaching King is NOT winning.
7. Perhaps while you're blasting CoE about being P2W, you should define what your idea of "winning" is. If your ideal of winning is owning a mount, then perhaps for you it is P2W.. it just wouldn't fit most people's definition.
As I said, Elyria is not pay to win.
I'd suggest this: DON'T take anyone's word on it here. Go to the official forums: https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/General-Discussion
Read up for yourself, and get the official line on the game. There's no shortage of little kids desperate for attention on places like this. It's best just to leave them alone and get accurate information first hand
First of all, you can't win in a MMO, so there is no MMO which is literally P2W.
The term Pay to Win is just a convenient term and it is not meant to be taken literally.
A loose translation for it would be "Pay to have an advantage over other players" but as you can see it doesn't sound as good, so the community forged the "P2W" terms which is more convenient to use in discussions and generally quickly understandable.
Having establish that.
It looks like CoE is P2W as having a clear advantage over players is like cheating.
Buying lands, kingship, huge head start time, it makes it unfair on other players that don't have the same financial power as you do, and conveys the message that rich people are better than you, just like it happens in real life, but in a game I really don't want to see that.
It doesn't matter that your incompetence as a player make you lose that advantage that you bought, that's irrelevant, that only confirm you should not play games if nothing else, and invest the money in something you are really good at....and leave games to gamers.
Do you claim to speak for all the community? That would indeed be misleading and only an opinion.
Which community do you speak of? I would assume you mean this one right here at mmorpg since this is the forum you're posting in and the community you're "speaking to". Again very misleading if you mean something else.
P2w.....this has been a highly debated subject in these forums here at mmorpg numerous times and the only consensus we have is that it is highly subjective and the community can't really agree on what constitutes p2w.
Do you claim to have single-handedly proven what p2w is and defined it in a way that everyone agrees with?
Somehow I rather doubt it so again highly misleading on your part IMHO.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
The imagination has better resolution than any monitor, and words are more effective than pixels. I think @simon155 drank the Kool Aid.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I speak of the game community itself, over at Chronicles of Elyria. No I don't mean this site. I don't have much interest in this site as it has far less factual information than the game sites themselves. I only followed a link here. As you'll see from my posting count, I'm not an avid follower of the site. I'm basing the statement on the typical responses over on the game site itself, which will be comprised of people who have ready access to far more accurate and detailed information than the mere snippets and misquotes I've seen in this forum. Perhaps it's that abundance of information over there that shapes the difference in responses.
Yes, P2W is very subjective. It would seem strange therefore that it would garner such a significant number of comments. That in mind, best to clarify exactly what's involved so people don't get mislead.
No - defining P2W would have been a good starting point. Hence you'll find detail in my OP that is oddly lacking in many of the other posts that rant about it.
Ok, so let's say that there is no cash shop or anything here. I would be well within my rights to spend $1000 per day to hire myself an army of 100 Chinese players to watch over my kingdom on a daily basis, 24/7, correct? So what does that mean?
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Nowadays you skip the fighting part and buy the area directly.
Souls may have different "stats".
You should start here: http://chroniclesofelyria.gamepedia.com/Souls
...and then here: https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/323/Design-Journal-1--Introduction-to-Souls
Let's imagine a single skill. During your life, the decisions you make and the work you put into developing that skill may have a lasting effect on your soul. Starting with a soul with a greater affinity for something, simply doesn't make you a "master" at it or break the game. During your life, some choices will increase your ability with a skill. You might commit criminal deeds and grief people, only be be thrown in prison. There, time will pass instantly, but having "served" your time, your character will age, and as you've been unable to train your skills in prison, they will atrophy. You might work on alternate skills when you come out.
You can effectively finish a life with a lower affinity for a skill than you started. It all depends on how you play it. Min/Maxing may fit with some games, but Elyria is a great deal more "open plan" than most games. You might assume in a boring run of the mill MMO that maxing a "swordfighting" skill will make you better than everyone else.
In Elyria, it's not the some environment at all. Obtaining better crafted gear may have an impact. Obtaining new skills may have an impact. Making allies certainly will. Improving your ability to survive and thrive will have an impact, increasing the time you can dedicate to your craft. Some players intend to be law breakers. Others intend to get rich from commissions, hunting such people down for profit.
It's very unlikely "cookie cutters" will be commonplace in Elyria. Even the discovery system is wildly complex. Events in the world may randomly present opportunities for discovery to those in the right place at the right time. Having goods from one professions and working on another might yield a discovery. Experimentation and being different are two factors most likely to reward players.
Go back and look at that thread again. I read a later posting by the devs that stated they had no such plan. Sadly some visitor took it upon himself to plaster an out of context posting from an "ideas discussion" thread as fact, something that was later proven not to be the case.
As I've often said, never rely on places like this for facts - best to go to source.
Perhaps we'll see some gold farmer attempting to do exactly that. Unlike many MMOs, the fact that you can lose it will make it all the more rewarding if a gold seller does get found. The inevitable consequence is that potentially entire kingdoms will raise against them, and you'll get to witness one of the first amusing MMO scenes unfold where a gold seller gets ripped off and cleaned out by an armed player base.
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/459061/developer-has-no-objection-to-allowing-high-donating-players-have-gm-accounts-not-p2w-lol/p1
So it is not P2W? Buy the man a clue.
My point exactly. I mean there was an article here today that talked about some guy spending $1 million in Game of War. So, yeah, technically there could be someone out there interested in controlling the game. However, the question is, realistically, is this something that people would be concerned with? I don't see people talk about this scenario at ALL! Yet people seem to think that things like 3-week head starts are game-breaking advantages. Again, I think people really just need to put things in perspective and think realistically.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Now if we go to https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/14989/equity-vs-fairness?page=9
... and read post #133 from the actual source you'll start to correct the misinformation.
Your first clue should be the fact it's a discussion thread. The devs there like to bounce ideas off the community and gauge reception. If you get a clown plastering a thought around as if it's gospel and a final decision, you're going to be misinformed.
I would never want my game especially a sandbox to be lose its integrity by having paid for advantages sponsored by the game itself.
Sadly there are group mentalities like that in any MMO.. many have been brought down by it. The devs seem to be doing all they can, and making provision to offset any risks that are raised like those.
The risk of such organized groups is no greater than buying tiers for launch.
In many respects, having tiers open pre-launch as they are will catch a wider cross section of the public, and reduce the risk of things being monopolized.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
That is debatable... In fact paying people to play it for you is worse, as it not only gives you an advantage off the bat, but an ongoing one at that. This assumes something about what you define "advantage" as. Elyria isn't as clear cut as most titles in that respect. There are so many routes to success that it's not so simply defined. If you want to becomes a legendary monster slayer, ruling a kingdom is not the best route. If you want to become a legendary blacksmith it won't fit either. All things take time, and skills are soft capped in many ways.
You'd need an awfully large employee base to fend off 100k players and potentially more NPCs if you decided to announce yourself as a gold seller.