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PANTHEON Twitch Stream Review : Impressed

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  • fs23otmfs23otm Member UncommonPosts: 503
    DKLond said:

    It's PROGRESSION - it's not "World of Warcraft". Why is everything about WoW? Are you that stagnant in your line of thinking?

    Because WoW is a perfect example of the "progression" you speak of...

    Vanilla WoW and TBC are often heralded as the best time in WOW. Gameplay was much slower than it was today. You had to use CC and coordinate within the groups. There was no group finder. the community was much better.

    Then WOTLK happened... and the gameplay turned to more of the "progression", and your quoted pull 10 mobs, philosophy. CC vanish... It was, and still is about, GO GO GO GO. It is about, get in, get it done, and don't remember anything about it. 

    Progression for the sake of progress is not a valid argument. 

    The best gameplay and balance in any game is still EQ1. Where EQ didn't progress was UI, ( and I am not talking about addons) in the flow of information, and graphics. I have said this all along. If EQ, had just updated the engine and the graphics, and modified the UI to be more informative while remaining clean, it would still compete in the world today. 
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    DKLond said:
    Once again, I'm correcting your misunderstanding - because you've so far chosen to ignore what I'm saying.

    If you finally get it, then we can certainly stop this exchange.
    Yeah but what is it that I need to get?

    This Topic is about Pantheon (about us), and as you put it, you already understood and accepted our point of view.
    If you want us to discuss about yourself, your feelings and beliefs, open another thread, as this is not the right place.

  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    fs23otm said:
    DKLond said:

    It's PROGRESSION - it's not "World of Warcraft". Why is everything about WoW? Are you that stagnant in your line of thinking?

    Because WoW is a perfect example of the "progression" you speak of...

    Vanilla WoW and TBC are often heralded as the best time in WOW. Gameplay was much slower than it was today. You had to use CC and coordinate within the groups. There was no group finder. the community was much better.

    Then WOTLK happened... and the gameplay turned to more of the "progression", and your quoted pull 10 mobs, philosophy. CC vanish... It was, and still is about, GO GO GO GO. It is about, get in, get it done, and don't remember anything about it. 

    Progression for the sake of progress is not a valid argument. 

    The best gameplay and balance in any game is still EQ1. Where EQ didn't progress was UI, ( and I am not talking about addons) in the flow of information, and graphics. I have said this all along. If EQ, had just updated the engine and the graphics, and modified the UI to be more informative while remaining clean, it would still compete in the world today. 
    No, I don't think WoW is the perfect example of the progression I speak of.

    I don't even have to think, because I'm the one speaking about it - and I'm not thinking of WoW.

    Who is arguing for progression for the sake of progression?

    I'm saying progression is a natural part of any MMO - including Pantheon.

    We're talking about time versus reward. Pantheon will obviously provide rewards.

    I think EQ had an absolutely terrible time versus reward balance - even at release.

    Obviously, if you seriously found it perfect - then Pantheon is likely to please you :)
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    ste2000 said:
    DKLond said:
    Once again, I'm correcting your misunderstanding - because you've so far chosen to ignore what I'm saying.

    If you finally get it, then we can certainly stop this exchange.
    Yeah but what is it that I need to get?

    This Topic is about Pantheon (about us), and as you put it, you already understood and accepted our point of view.
    If you want us to discuss about yourself, your feelings and beliefs, open another thread, as this is not the right place.

    Ehm, what?

    I have no interest in discussing anything. I have an interest in exchanging and speaking my mind.

    The only reason there's a discussion is because you didn't understand my point of view - and I had to make it clearer for you.

    I did that not because I want a discussion, but because I prefer being understood.

    Also, part of our opinions will inevitably be our feelings and beliefs. How could it not be?

    You're not making any sense at all.

    Anyway, you just accepted that I feel differently about the game than you do. So, why are you still going on?

    Again, you enjoy what you enjoy - and I enjoy what I enjoy.
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    DKLond said:
    ste2000 said:

    Yeah but what is it that I need to get?

    Ehm, what?
    I have no interest in discussing anything. I have an interest in exchanging and speaking my mind.
    The only reason there's a discussion is because you didn't understand my point of view - and I had to make it clearer for you.

    Yeah but you didn't answer my question
    What do I need to get? What I need to understand? Put a subject to the conversation.
    Maybe you need to be a bit more clear on what you want to discuss, so people can address the issue directly and clear the air, because at this point I am genuinely confused about what you want to discuss.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    ste2000 said:
    DKLond said:
    ste2000 said:

    Yeah but what is it that I need to get?

    Ehm, what?
    I have no interest in discussing anything. I have an interest in exchanging and speaking my mind.
    The only reason there's a discussion is because you didn't understand my point of view - and I had to make it clearer for you.

    Yeah but you didn't answer my question
    What do I need to get? What I need to understand? Put a subject to the conversation.
    Maybe you need to be a bit more clear on what you want to discuss, so people can address the issue directly and clear the air, because at this point I am genuinely confused about what you want to discuss.

    Just admit you're wrong about everything and accept his superior opinion and all will be forgiven.


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Dullahan said:
    ste2000 said:


    Just admit you're wrong about everything and accept his superior opinion and all will be forgiven.
    Ehehhh...that's exactly what I am trying to do.
    I am trying to understand what he is on about so I can accept it.

    I spent two posts already asking that, but he still didn't get the hint.
    I hope he is able to tell me what I am supposed to accept, so we can settle the discussion.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    Lol, it seems to me that certain people are mad because it's looking more and more like Brad & team are going to pull this off. 

    After watching the stream I would imagined some jaws dropped, not because it's looks outstanding but because of the progress since the other stream. 

    One says he is a backer which I don't believe for one minute given his post history on this game. 

    The other can't get it through his scull that they don't care what he thinks. The game is not being made for his type of MMO player. 

    He also thinks he knows us who want this type of MMO better than ourselves. 

    As for time to play, how the hell does the other one know how much time we have on our hand, delusional at best. 

    I'll will be playing this for years so will like minded people. If it takes days or weeks to get things done and I enjoy getting them done with like minded people then I'm smiling. 




  • DaemonweaverDaemonweaver Member UncommonPosts: 123
    Game looked quite good but combat is boring beyond belief, no impact, very static and lackluster!
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    Game looked quite good but combat is boring beyond belief, no impact, very static and lackluster!
     Remember it's pre alpha and no where near the end product. Think we can all agree the game looks good especially the characters. Now they are getting there they will have more time to get the combat down, it's never going to look as fast as action combat systems. 





  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 484
    DMKano said:
    Gyva02 said:
    Mendel said:
    Pretty game.  But I played a less-pretty version of this 17 years ago.  It's still a pile of characters beating on a single mob at a time, with single adds mezzed and waiting for their beatdown to begin.  What about packs of 4-8 mobs at a time?  I've been bored with the 4-on-1 fight with 1 healer and 1 crowd controller for quite a long while now.

    Beyond the pretty graphics, it's more of the same, nothing new or innovative.
    Just how we like it :) 

    Just how you THINK you like it.

    IMO - after several weeks you'll probably be thinking "I've played all this before... why am I doing this again?"
    I've played P99 every day for years. I KNOW its what I like :) 
  • dcutbi001dcutbi001 Member UncommonPosts: 48
    edited December 2016
    ste2000 said:
    Dullahan said:
    ste2000 said:


    Just admit you're wrong about everything and accept his superior opinion and all will be forgiven.
    Ehehhh...that's exactly what I am trying to do.
    I am trying to understand what he is on about so I can accept it.

    I spent two posts already asking that, but he still didn't get the hint.
    I hope he is able to tell me what I am supposed to accept, so we can settle the discussion.
    My interpretation of what he is saying, and doing, here, is that he thinks there are several elements of the game that he likes, but there are some things he would like them to change to suit him. Most specifically combat, and the time it takes to kill mobs. 

    DKlond, you keep asking what is wrong with you watching a public video, and, in response, coming to a public forum and posting your thoughts about it. The simple response to that statement is - nothing is wrong with it. With that being said, it seems like a better question is, why do so many people here have such a problem with it?

    The answer to that question is simple really - you're coming here stating that some of the core elements of a game that is already being made, is making a mistake because it went a different direction then what you personally like. The problem people on these boards, specifically, have with that is, it's not like the tenants that you dislike are really up for discussion to change. This is how the game is being designed, so why come here and bang a drum that you think it's wrong?

    I don't know you, and I'm sure you're a nice enough guy, but how can those of us that desperately want this type of game take your negative disposition as anything but inflammatory? My first instinct was telling me you were just sour grapes for no reason and you came here to troll, but the more I read you posts I changed my mind. Now it actually feels more like you are someone who had hoped this game would go in a direction more to your liking, because it actually had elements that sounded interesting to you, but it ended up missing the mark for you in some big ways. I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but that was just what it started to feel like reading through your posts. 

    At the end of the day, my question to you would be - What did you hope the outcome would be by coming to a post where people are excited about the current stream, and saying the design is going to be mostly a failure? Even if you think that's true, I still don't get what the purpose for coming here with that message would be. The only thing I can think of is that you were hoping the development team would read your post, and possibly change their core tenants. Anything beyond that makes your posts look purposely caustic.
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    dcutbi001 said:

    The answer to that question is simple really - you're coming here stating that some of the core elements of a game that is already being made, is making a mistake because it went a different direction then what you personally like. The problem people on these boards, specifically, have with that is, it's not like the tenants that you dislike are really up for discussion to change. This is how the game is being designed, so why come here and bang a drum that you think it's wrong?

    Exactly.
    He insisted telling us that we didn't get or accept his opinion, but I actually got him straight away.
    What transpired from his post is that he was telling us we were wrong to like this type of game because according to him combat is slow paced and an archaic design that no longer works in today MMOs.
    What he failed to understand is, why we appreciate and accept that most people dislike this kind of design, we actually love it.
    But he kept banging on the fact that we didn't get his point of view, truth is we did, but we didn't care because it wasn't relevant to this Pantheon topic, it was becoming a me, me, me conversation.
    That's why I suggested to make another thread on the subject.
    And I don't think he is a troll, I just think he didn't realized he was way off topic.


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited December 2016
    The truth is people don't seem to really like new mmos and their fancy new systems much either, hence the reason they can't float the subscription model or keep a decent playerbase, despite spending hundreds of millions of dollars.

    It's just a laughable place to argue from against older mechanics when the game in question managed to keep a larger playerbase for a longer period of time than almost any game that's come out in a decade.


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    ^^^
    People might hate this type of design all they like, but that's the only design that guarantees longevity and a steady number of Subscribers.
    Slow leveling is the secret to keep players subscribed, I acknowledge it is an artificial way to make content last longer, but it's a clever one, since it is impossible to produce enough content to last a year in modern fast paced MMOs.

    And slow leveling, and slow paced can be fun, because you are not stressed by the thought of having to reach level cap in a month, it also gives you the chance to appreciate the items you gather during your adventures.
    In modern games you level so fast that you out-level your gear within a day of playing, killing the joy of obtaining new items.


  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    Gyva02 said:
    DMKano said:
    Gyva02 said:
    Mendel said:
    Pretty game.  But I played a less-pretty version of this 17 years ago.  It's still a pile of characters beating on a single mob at a time, with single adds mezzed and waiting for their beatdown to begin.  What about packs of 4-8 mobs at a time?  I've been bored with the 4-on-1 fight with 1 healer and 1 crowd controller for quite a long while now.

    Beyond the pretty graphics, it's more of the same, nothing new or innovative.
    Just how we like it :) 

    Just how you THINK you like it.

    IMO - after several weeks you'll probably be thinking "I've played all this before... why am I doing this again?"
    I've played P99 every day for years. I KNOW its what I like :) 


    And he would have us believe that he donated to this game lol. Just by his comment you quoted we know it's a big fat lie. 

    Embarrassing. 




  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,308
    DKLond said:
    ste2000 said:
    DKLond said:

    It's NOT particularly rewarding to spend minutes standing around a single mob - watching players making a move every 5 seconds - until the goblin predictably drops dead, seeing as how you established the winning tactic a hundred goblins ago - only to be rewarded with a nearly invisible amount of progress on the XP bar.


    I like all of that, is that wrong?
    I don't get why some of you have problem accepting that people have different taste than you have.
    You are not just trying to give your opinion on the game, which by now is all very clear.
    Now it looks like you are trying to convince people who like the game that they actually shouldn't, because the slow leveling and downtime don't make sense (to you).

    To me it makes perfect sense, not seeing the XP bar moving relaxes me because it take away the pressure of leveling, and while the group is resting I can get a coffee, smoke a cigarette, making myself a sandwich, post on the forums, talking to my family or just shit talk with my group or guild mates.
    Not worrying about the XP bar makes me actually play the game at my own pace, instead of chasing the XP bar.

    I don't need to win to enjoy a MMO (like most of you), I just want to have fun along the journey.
    Is this such a weird concept to grasp? For me it makes perfect sense.
    Key word here  is "relax" "Socialize" and "Fun", I play MMOs for those reasons.
    When I feel the need of some intense play sessions, smashing my gamepad on the desk and banging my head on the wall, I play Battlefield, COD or FIFA, which I do quite often, but not when I play MMOs.
    If you've been following the thread, this isn't about convincing others. It's about correcting their misunderstanding of our dislike.

    Of course it's not wrong that you enjoy that kind of gameplay. As I've said countless times before, the game is great for SOME people.

    The point of contention is when people don't understand other points of view.

    I don't know why you assume I need to "win" anything. I have no idea what that's about here. How can you win an MMO?

    No, I want to feel like my time investment is rewarded - and to me, that's about lots of unique content and tangible progression at a reasonable pace.

    You will never see me tell people they're wrong to enjoy what they enjoy. On the other hand, I don't understand why I can't state my opinion about a game on a public forum right after a bunch of new videos have been posted that we're all exposed to.
    yes its two completely different play styles, it's not for you but make no mistake, it is for others. i also agree with some of the others that i feel far much more satisfied when i loot an item that is extremely difficult and time consuming to get rather than just get a welfare epic every time i log in or even once every couple days.

    i also feel more satisfied when i achieve a progression milestone that takes months to get to rather than hitting it in a couple days like no big deal.


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016
    DMKano said:

    Now in your estimate - if you took every player who played EQ1 from Vanilla to Kunark - what % of those players TODAY after 14-17 years do you think would have the time and patience to play a game that required the same type of time investment?

    Because that's the audience that Pantheon is targeting  - and I have serious doubts that in 2017/18 or whenever this launches those players will have any more than 2-6 weeks of nostalgia gameplay left in them before they throw in the towel. 

    So that's what I am asking - how many will stick around for even 3 months, let alone 6months or more.

    My answer is many, many more than you think.

    Your always seems so full of yourself when making this sort of assumptions, you seem to think you are the only one that knows what people really wants.
    I like to see you so determined making the same kind of analyses on Archeage an why after just 3 years it has already a foot in the grave, while EQ after 13 years is still going.
    Maybe you should offer your wisdom to Trion, who knows maybe Archeage might still have a chance.

    You accuse people dishing their own estimates, but you do the same with a touch of arrogance, without producing any facts, just suppositions based on your own taste.
    Old School games might be niche but people that play them are very loyal and stick with them for years, unlike other more recent games  we know.

    And stop labeling people that like this kind of game "nostalgic" I made a couple of thread just to explain to people like you that it is not nostalgia what make us want to play those games.
    You might want to head over and read them, you might learn that there are people that actually love the things you hate.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    There will be far more skeptics playing Pantheon than oldschool EQ fanboys.

    By a wide margin.


  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    For me the progression pace, community and group-centric nature of EQ is where it's at. I literally cannot find the same experience elsewhere so yes, I am looking forward to a modern version of this model.
  • wandericawanderica Member UncommonPosts: 366
    DKLond said:
    Dullahan said:
    I find the argument that a game "takes too much time" is a very slanted view held by only the minority who think they must be on the top and competitive. Because they have to be the best, if being the best requires playing a lot then therefore there's nothing else that can possibly be enjoyed. That really couldn't be a more unfair and illogical assessment. 

    There is plenty to accomplish in a game like Pantheon - much like EQ - in a reasonable amount of time. You just won't be "competitive" as easily, and that's the crux of your argument. Sorry, most people don't think that way.
    I've never been competitive in that way.

    The problem with the amount of time things take is very simple.

    It doesn't feel like the rewards are worth the investment.

    Time is a very limited commodity - and having endless fights that you have to grind through - to get to something that's nearly identical - is not super exciting to all of us. 

    That's why modern MMOs have reduced TTK - and made content much more distinct. Developers understand that most players want to experience new content - and most players aren't willing to settle for EQ standards.

    MMOs were never meant to have EQ-style combat - it was a limitation of networking technology and the new horizon of having hundreds of players in the same areas.

    These days, technology has evolved - and they've learned to handle players through clever instancing.

    Stubbornly insisting on having slow combat and long TTK is completely unnecessary. You don't have to force single-mob fights that take minutes upon players to have a tactical game.

    You are, of course, correct with your history lesson here.  That is indeed the reason that slow combat existed as it did in EQ.  There are many times that I enjoy fast paced combat, if not action based.  It fits more in a great many games, such as WoW, FFXIV, or BDO.  However, I think it's also fair to point out that the slow combat style of times gone by, such as that seen in EQ and FFXI, had a very positive impact.  The happy side effect was that you had time to talk in groups because of the downtime, not in spite of it like we see in WoW.  In short, it was one of the driving forces behind community, but certainly not the only one.  Conversely, that community began to erode, quite fast, the moment WoW burst on the scene and streamlined combat and gameplay.  It has only become worse as games get more and more fast paced.  That slow combat is now sneered at as people refer to it as "slow WoW-Style combat."

    I would urge you to at least check the game out before writing it off as old and outdated.  Pantheon seeks to recapture the community feel of old school MMOs, but not necessarily the gameplay of old MMOs.  There are a few of us on their forums that don't want another EQ, but if it takes a slower paced combat to regain that lost sense of community, it's a price I would happily pay.


  • JCBNJCBN Member UncommonPosts: 47
    edited December 2016
    I havent written anything on this board for years, but i also saw the Pantheon stream (actually watched the 3 hour long stream @ youtube).

    I decided to check out mmorpg, and behold... OP speaks my mind 100%, i completely agree, and i cannot wait for this game, i know this will be the niche game for me, for many years.

    I am 36 years old, with kids, job, wife, house... all that jizz, sure my playtime aint as high as the good old days... but i still love playing games, and when i play games, i wanna be entertained, and i dont need anyone to hold my hand.

    I welcome this game, thank you ste2000, for writing down my thoughts, so i dont have to!
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited December 2016
    Let's not pretend that lowering the TTK or required time devotion doesn't also lower the sense of accomplishment. This is something that modern game companies have failed to understand as they've swung the pendulum so far towards the side of convenience. When something takes longer, it feels inherently more worthwhile to most people. There's a balance there, and the reward must feel worth the time commitment, but inevitably something you worked for is more enjoyable than something you did not.

    And for the 100th time, there is simply no data to suggest that people won't find a game like Pantheon enjoyable. There are no other games to compare it to. For years now, developers have been under mandate to replicate the success of one game, and no one has bothered considering what else might also be successful. This will change as soon as a game has success doing something different.

    I believe Pantheon will be that game.


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    DMKano said:
    Gyva02 said:
    DMKano said:
    Gyva02 said:
    Mendel said:
    Pretty game.  But I played a less-pretty version of this 17 years ago.  It's still a pile of characters beating on a single mob at a time, with single adds mezzed and waiting for their beatdown to begin.  What about packs of 4-8 mobs at a time?  I've been bored with the 4-on-1 fight with 1 healer and 1 crowd controller for quite a long while now.

    Beyond the pretty graphics, it's more of the same, nothing new or innovative.
    Just how we like it :) 

    Just how you THINK you like it.

    IMO - after several weeks you'll probably be thinking "I've played all this before... why am I doing this again?"
    I've played P99 every day for years. I KNOW its what I like :) 


    And he would have us believe that he donated to this game lol. Just by his comment you quoted we know it's a big fat lie. 

    Embarrassing. 

    What's embarrassing is that you  are quick to call me a liar just because you disagree with me, and quite possibly have an axe to grind with what I've said in the past?

    That's embarrassing.

    You can't even fathom the idea that I backed Pantheon and I can still be critical of the development decisions?

    Backers can and SHOULD be critical - that's how things get better, if everyone just "ooohs" and "aaaahs" at anything developers say.... that's a lot more embarrassing isn't it?


    I still play P99, I've played EQ1 since march of 1999 , I have over 7 years of "/played" time.

    And yet I am not going to be blind to the fact that the playerbase that can stand to play that type of game has dwindled over the last 17 years and continue to do so every year.

    It's a valid concern.

    I understand that you like new and old school DMK.....I just think your inside scoop data is completely wrong......COMPLETELY !! 


    Now, understand there is no possible way to track, chart or poll peoples opinion when FORCE CHANGE FOR PROFET had been made to the industry in the last 10 years.

    Add that Marketing, and Advertisement is always skewed..........They have the POWER AND THE MONEY to tell the population what they like.  The population has no way to dispute or rebuttal other than using message boards.  Any rebuttal would only be considered a guess because its not an official source !

     I don't care what inside tips you have :)
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    edited December 2016
    Those name tags really remind of Vanguard.

    Appears they have nailed the initial old school feel and look. It wants to be a genre game and it looks it. Great for those interested in it.

    Also some very nice RPG style elements. The unjaded part of me is gaining a level of excitement for this game.

    You stay sassy!

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