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Pantheon Second Gameplay Stream Overview

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  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    edited December 2016
    Aradune said:
    I don't believe it is a weak argument because people began to leave those types of games behind. This is not because they are the best examples of the MMO genre it is because the genre evolved as did those who play them. You must realize that as Yoshi-P, the producer of FFXIV has said:
    With all due respect to Yoshi-P, the original producer & lead designer of EverQuest disagrees.  Pretty sure Todd Coleman (Crowfall) and Richard Garriott (SotA) do too.  Even Raph Koster (UO, SW:G), while not full time on an MMO, is helping out on Crowfall....

    • MMORPGs nowadays can’t be successful unless they’re large-scale games.
    Actually it's the large scale, massively expensive online games (MEOGs?) that have tried to appeal to everyone that have struggled, had retention issues, had to switch to F2P and cash-shops to monetize casual gamers before they bail on the game, etc.  Ask Rob Pardo why they gave up on Titan...  Sure, trying to make a 'WoW killer' is probably folly, but also entirely unnecessary.
    • Some companies want to make MMORPGs but they can’t afford it, and the ones that are trying to make MMORPGs are being told by investors to just make a game of a different genre.

    Funding is hard to come by regardless of genre.... even companies devoted to virtual reality are only getting seed funding to 'experiment'.  Big publishers are risk adverse right now (seems to run in cycles), but there are other ways to fund games.

    • We’re currently in a state where even if you want to make an MMORPG, you really can’t.

     But we and others ARE.

    • Yoshi-P’s personal opinion is that MMORPGs aren’t dead but they’re just taking a break.

     He may be taking a break but I'm not.

    • He feels that it’ll be another 10~15 years until they become big again
    What magical event is going to occur in 10 or 15 years that will suddenly make them 'big' again?  Perhaps he is frustrated that he can't (or won't) make the MMO of his dreams in the near future, or maybe he needs a break, but I'm living my dream :)

    Rob gave up Titan because it did not cohesively fit together and further their vision as a studio. What they did have was very different and don't think you have seen the last of MMOs from Blizzard ;)

    10 to 15 years that he is talking about?
    Just wait ;)
     
    With all due respect to you Brad I have only seen one completed game from you in Everquest and Bill and Steve had a mighty big hand in that as well. Following that was Vanguard, though brilliant in places, was a bit of a mess so color me cautious.

     








    I'm not going to speak for Rob, but my understanding was that spending so much money and launching another WoW-level project wasn't going to 1. match WoW's level of success (which it needed to) and 2. more importantly, reach millions of people who were not already WoW players and therefore grow the gamespace again.  When they became unconvinced of this, as Blizzard is wont to do, they canned it.  When Blizzard does something, they expect it to be big (huge, genre changing).  All of which supports my assertion that MEOGs are not the way to go.

    Not 'cohesively fitting together' and 'not fitting in with their vision' is white-washed press release baloney and most certainly would have been realized far earlier (Titan was fairly far along when cancelled).  Also given the talent and resources that team had, extremely unlikely.

    That said, will they eventually tackle another MMO? I sure hope so, but according to you they shouldn't, right?  They need to wait 10-15 years for that magical moment you seem unwilling to articulate.

    Yes, Steve & Bill were key to EQ's design, which is why you see them in the credits where due (I wrote the credits, btw).

    VG was a mess at launch because we had to release 6 months early.  When it was cleaned up, it still ran 7 years (and EQ is still going).  All of this has been re-hashed a hundred times.  But if producing & managing (and learning from both my success and my mistakes) two MMOs (how many people have done that?) colors you cautious, so be it.

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    Xodic said:
    punahou said:

    I'm am excited about the game-- as this will be EQ201X-- let their be no doubt.


    From the classes to their roles, this is EQ.

    Does anyone know if the devs have said anything about combat and runspeed?  I will be very upset if they lock down your runspeed in combat like EQ2.

    I am a huge proponent of movement buffs that empower classes to kite and for its group utility.

    Judging from the stream there are already movement speed buffs and it doesn't seem like being engaged changes your movement speed. Also, they did have to call out 'train', so the reset range for mobs are most likely zone wide.

    I assume you will be able to kite.
    I wouldn't rule out kiting... tweaked so it's A tactic and not THE tactic (e.g. because it's broken) is however likely.

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 12,263
    edited December 2016
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

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  • VorpalChicken28VorpalChicken28 Member UncommonPosts: 348
    Personally I'm looking forward to Pantheon coming out, I've not settled into any MMO since I stopped playing EQ and VG, everything just doesn't seem to have anything in it that keeps me playing like it did in EQ and VG.

    I played EQ for 16 years, 10 of which I was a raider, I loved VG, it was my downtime game when not playing EQ.

    Something needs to radically change in the MMO market or we're just going to get lumped with the same shit we've had to endure since WoW came to prominence.

    I'll admit I've not yet bought into Pantheon (moneywise) as I'm not 100% swayed by crowdfunding, but if Brad was to say that they need the cash to finish and needed people to pledge, I'd pledge now, I think Pantheon is something that needs to happen and needs to succeed.

    And while I see Brad is here on the thread a big thanks for those 16 years of EQ (And VG) met my wife in EQ and been married 13 years now, without EQ I'd not have a game to benchmark very other game against.
    “Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” 
    ― Terry PratchettMaking Money
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Aradune said:
    I'm not going to speak for Rob, but my understanding was that spending so much money and launching another WoW-level project wasn't going to 1. match WoW's level of success (which it needed to) and 2. more importantly, reach millions of people who were not already WoW players and therefore grow the gamespace again.  When they became unconvinced of this, as Blizzard is wont to do, they canned it.  When Blizzard does something, they expect it to be big.

    Coincidentally that's exactly what I said 5 years ago when I  predicted that Titan wasn't going to be a MMORPG but a Massive FPS or a MOBA, it turned out they made Overwatch, so I wasn't wrong.
    From a business point of view it was only logic that  Blizzard wouldn't want a similar product to directly compete with WoW, that would have split their player base while doubling the costs and halving the margin.

    Just to show to @blueturtle13 that you don't need to work for Valve to understand the Gaming Industry.

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  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016

    You are half right about Titan ;)
    Tell me about the other half I am not right about.....I hate the suspense.

    In 2009 Jeff Kaplan stepped down from WoW to become Producer of Project Titan, then he became the Producer of Overwatch,.........Project Titan became Overwatch.
    Is this also half right?

    I knew they were going to make Overwatch before Blizzard knew it.
    Post edited by ste2000 on

  • VorpalChicken28VorpalChicken28 Member UncommonPosts: 348
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    “Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” 
    ― Terry PratchettMaking Money
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
  • VorpalChicken28VorpalChicken28 Member UncommonPosts: 348
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Well it's in alpha atm so kinda expected
    “Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” 
    ― Terry PratchettMaking Money
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    vorpal28 said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Well it's in alpha atm so kinda expected
    Fair enough. Let's see how much it evolves in that sense.
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  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 708
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 12,263
    edited December 2016
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

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  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
  • VorpalChicken28VorpalChicken28 Member UncommonPosts: 348
    In fairness to Blizzard, yes they have the whole marketing shebang down to a T, but the products they release are excellent.

    An excellent example of Good Marketing but Poor Product (be it viral, word of mouth or otherwise) is No Man's Sky.

    With Blizzard you get what it says on the box.

    I'd just like to see Blizzard for to once again take the lead and release something really original or at the very least a serious itteration above whats currently available (Original Diablo being a good example as they took a very basic game design ie MUDS and amped it 100%)
    “Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” 
    ― Terry PratchettMaking Money
  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 499
    edited December 2016
    For the record I'm "Down With Time Sinks", back in the old days we used to call that "Playing The Game" :) 
  • Jonnyp2Jonnyp2 Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Xodic said:
    Xodic said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    To be fair that can be said of most studios not just Blizzard. They make billions so they must be doing something right.....for years.
    Right, because marketing brings in money, and the amount of money made reflects how great the game is...
    Not sure what you mean. Marketing is the reason they are successful? Hardly.
    Didn't help Battleborn at all even though I saw commercials all the time for it.
    No one said anything about how 'great' they are it is just common sense that they are very successful and for what they try and accomplish they do. They sell a lot of copies of their games and have millions of fans in multiple genres.

     
    What!? This new Blizzard has made a total of one good game - which is undeniably the original pre-fucked World of Warcraft. Since then they have become nothing more than a marketing company that just so happens to own a game development studio. They have so much money they are able to literally purchase more money. Overwatch had their shit on everything, from Taco Bell cups to movie trailers. They shadowed Battleborn (which isn't a great game - just as Overwatch isn't) and they did it with money.

    Of all of the games out there similar and arguably better than Overwatch, Overwatch makes more money; why is that? It's better?

    Bullshit. It's because Blizzard is a household name - bought and paid for through marketing. 

    edit - to clarify, pointing to revenue and contributing that to how great games are is a misrepresentation. It makes them successful, but doesn't necessarily mean the games are great and that the way Blizzard makes them is perfect. So when you say "they must be doing something right" yes, they are masters of marketing.
    Blizzard hasn't made a "good" game since vanilla wow?  This guy isn't biased at all... 
  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 708
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
    Exactly, we can expect it to improve as the videos have clearly shown.

    It's an MMO.  There's only so many things that can be "original" in them as they all take from one another.  WoW took from EQ, other games took from WoW, so on and so forth.  Its a never ending cycle.   There are some things that are interesting though that they talked about in this last stream.  The system where you have the different weather systems where you have to get accustomed to and having different severites is interesting and unique.

    And yes, you're right, anyone who expects the level of polish that Blizzard provides would be naive and I am not knocking Visionary Realms devs at all in the slightest but having a dev team of 500+ strong makes a huge difference.  They have limitless resources as well which helps  tremendously. 

    Being a huge fan and player of EQ for many years and even with its issues, Vanguard to this day still provided some great memories and hope this can capture similar times.  I especially look forward to the open world dungeons. No more instanced BS please.  
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
    Exactly, we can expect it to improve as the videos have clearly shown.

    It's an MMO.  There's only so many things that can be "original" in them as they all take from one another.  WoW took from EQ, other games took from WoW, so on and so forth.  Its a never ending cycle.   There are some things that are interesting though that they talked about in this last stream.  The system where you have the different weather systems where you have to get accustomed to and having different severites is interesting and unique.

    And yes, you're right, anyone who expects the level of polish that Blizzard provides would be naive and I am not knocking Visionary Realms devs at all in the slightest but having a dev team of 500+ strong makes a huge difference.  They have limitless resources as well which helps  tremendously. 

    Being a huge fan and player of EQ for many years and even with its issues, Vanguard to this day still provided some great memories and hope this can capture similar times.  I especially look forward to the open world dungeons. No more instanced BS please.  
    Well, I agree about open world and the weather system. Those are neat features.

    I just think the game, as a whole, smacks of stubborn adherence to the ancient past.

    I've been a passionate gamer since 1982 - so I don't lack appreciation for old-school mechanics and the golden years of gaming.

    But I'm not blind to evolution - and I'm not blind to how I, myself, have changed as a human being.

    I'm no longer a wide-eyed teenager willing to dedicate all my life to a single game. That just won't happen.

    Modern games have to adapt or die, essentially.

    Well, not die per say - but if you're going to target the niche market, you better be fine with it - and you better not expect people to ignore the last decade of genre evolution.

    This is where I'm not quite sure about Pantheon and the developers. I'm sceptical about whether they can truly accept a very small playerbase and thrive.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    DKLond said:
    I was among those 500K - but that doesn't mean I want to go back in time and play ancient throwbacks.
    The more you use the phrase ancient throwbacks, the more obvious it becomes that you lack any first-hand knowledge of what those games offered and were about.


  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Member UncommonPosts: 654
    I am taking a wait and see approach, but so far I've enjoyed what the team have shown.

    I'm in no doubt this game is only going to cater to a small niche, but if the devs are happy, the bills are getting paid and content keeps getting added to the game I'm not going to care that the game has not got 100's of servers.

    I'm looking forward to the old game mechanic approach to the game;  I've never really enjoyed the quest treadmill type MMO seen since EQ2 and WoW.  Don't get me wrong certain quests I enjoy, for example heritage quests from EQ 2 and some of the story stuff from SWTOR, but I've had enough and I'm looking forward to some good old fashioned group mob grinding. 

    It is also my belief that sometimes to move forward or take a different direction, you have to move back to the point in time where the genre went off in one direction and take a different path or approach to game mechanics, for example since WoW the majority of MMO's have took a more casual,  mass appeal and streamlined approach where the end game takes the most focus.  What we are seeing now is indie devs carving a niche approach to gameplay;  only focusing on one or a few elements which their core audience is interested in.  Time will tell if this approach will be a success, but hopefully it will succeed and other dev teams will gain confidence and build  and approve on these MMO's.

  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 708
    edited December 2016
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
    Exactly, we can expect it to improve as the videos have clearly shown.

    It's an MMO.  There's only so many things that can be "original" in them as they all take from one another.  WoW took from EQ, other games took from WoW, so on and so forth.  Its a never ending cycle.   There are some things that are interesting though that they talked about in this last stream.  The system where you have the different weather systems where you have to get accustomed to and having different severites is interesting and unique.

    And yes, you're right, anyone who expects the level of polish that Blizzard provides would be naive and I am not knocking Visionary Realms devs at all in the slightest but having a dev team of 500+ strong makes a huge difference.  They have limitless resources as well which helps  tremendously. 

    Being a huge fan and player of EQ for many years and even with its issues, Vanguard to this day still provided some great memories and hope this can capture similar times.  I especially look forward to the open world dungeons. No more instanced BS please.  
    Well, I agree about open world and the weather system. Those are neat features.

    I just think the game, as a whole, smacks of stubborn adherence to the ancient past.

    I've been a passionate gamer since 1982 - so I don't lack appreciation for old-school mechanics and the golden years of gaming.

    But I'm not blind to evolution - and I'm not blind to how I, myself, have changed as a human being.

    I'm no longer a wide-eyed teenager willing to dedicate all my life to a single game. That just won't happen.

    Modern games have to adapt or die, essentially.

    Well, not die per say - but if you're going to target the niche market, you better be fine with it - and you better not expect people to ignore the last decade of genre evolution.

    This is where I'm not quite sure about Pantheon and the developers. I'm sceptical about whether they can truly accept a very small playerbase and thrive.
    Ancient past?  Did you even play Everquest or Vanguard?  The mechanics, community, open world that both had were incredibly detailed and all worked.  A thrilling open world that had consequences on your actions, such as fighting guards or being an asshat to the community which communities then are what made those games incredibly fun and enveloping.  All 3 of those that I mentioned at the beginning are what MMO's have been missing and some of the reasons why most of them have not been all that successful. 

    Community - Something that we haven't seen in a many years.  You grew with your fellow players on your servers.  You got to know them both in-game and on a personal level.  You formed bonds, friendships, relationships.  You ran stuff together, you failed together, you went through trials and tribulations.  All of these made the game better because you got to know your fellow player in the WORLD you were playing in.  Something missing so dearly in these games now.  A vast amount of players now feel so entitled that they don't even know what a community entails and that's sad.  I actually pitty a lot of players now because of what they have missed. I could tell you many names of players character names and their real life names because of the friendships that grew.  I couldn't tell you a single persons name that I have played with in recent years because everything has been so disconnected. 

    Open world -  MMO's since WoW began the massive introduction to instancing, HEAVY instancing use.  EQ at some point had some instances but nothing how it is today.  This is crucial because it completely disconnects you from these game worlds we're taking part in.  Yes, some will say well it helps with raids and it does but I feel it does more harm to the game than anything.

    Mechanics -  Everquest did a LOT right, as did Vanguard(Though again it had its issues no doubt but still very good).  For starters it put the player in control of how powerful their characters could be and by that I mean it engrossed every class as a whole and how they interacted.  If you had an Enchanter in your group, you had significant haste buffs, significant mana regen, significant crowd control, significant debuffs, etc, etc.  BUFFS/DEBUFFS actually played a role in the game and affected you immensely.  Buffs/debuffs nowadays are pointless.  Games have gone away from that and put more so into the gear taking away any interaction between players when it comesto class interaction.  

    I could go on and on but by no means were the features in these games "ancient".  If anything they were and still are a metric ton better than any iterations that we have today which is sad because you think some would say, hey those worked and worked well! Lets capitalize on it and build upon it to make it better than it was/is. 
  • RedsaltRedsalt Member UncommonPosts: 83
    They have made some good progress since their last stream.  I like the perception system as a means of opening content.  I am also likeing the art and environment design.   Looking forward to seeing more.

    Redsalt... the other salt.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536

    Ancient past?  Did you even play Everquest or Vanguard?  The mechanics, community, open world that both had were incredibly detailed and all worked.  A thrilling open world that had consequences on your actions, such as fighting guards or being an asshat to the community which communities then are what made those games incredibly fun and enveloping.  All 3 of those that I mentioned at the beginning are what MMO's have been missing and some of the reasons why most of them have not been all that successful. 

    Community - Something that we haven't seen in a many years.  You grew with your fellow players on your servers.  You got to know them both in-game and on a personal level.  You formed bonds, friendships, relationships.  You ran stuff together, you failed together, you went through trials and tribulations.  All of these made the game better because you got to know your fellow player in the WORLD you were playing in.  Something missing so dearly in these games now.  A vast amount of players now feel so entitled that they don't even know what a community entails and that's sad.  I actually pitty a lot of players now because of what they have missed. I could tell you many names of players character names and their real life names because of the friendships that grew.  I couldn't tell you a single persons name that I have played with in recent years because everything has been so disconnected. 

    Open world -  MMO's since WoW began the massive introduction to instancing, HEAVY instancing use.  EQ at some point had some instances but nothing how it is today.  This is crucial because it completely disconnects you from these game worlds we're taking part in.  Yes, some will say well it helps with raids and it does but I feel it does more harm to the game than anything.

    Mechanics -  Everquest did a LOT right, as did Vanguard(Though again it had its issues no doubt but still very good).  For starters it put the player in control of how powerful their characters could be and by that I mean it engrossed every class as a whole and how they interacted.  If you had an Enchanter in your group, you had significant haste buffs, significant mana regen, significant crowd control, significant debuffs, etc, etc.  BUFFS/DEBUFFS actually played a role in the game and affected you immensely.  Buffs/debuffs nowadays are pointless.  Games have gone away from that and put more so into the gear taking away any interaction between players when it comesto class interaction.  

    I could go on and on but by no means were the features in these games "ancient".  If anything they were and still are a metric ton better than any iterations that we have today which is sad because you think some would say, hey those worked and worked well! Lets capitalize on it and build upon it to make it better than it was/is. 
    Amazing post, Mack. The thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is, much of what you described above would be compatible with a lot of the things they are so adamant about having from modern games. For instance, as much as many of us may not personally like it, you could take something like twitch gameplay and have it exist in the above environment. As long as you slow the pace enough with downtime, allowing the social aspect, and keep the need for strategy intact, it would still work.

    In short, I find it simplest to describe it as the different between a virtual world and a video game. Unfortunately, the term virtual worlds means little to those who didn't experience them in there prime. Therein lies the disconnect.


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