Your need to defend a game that is not even in beta yet and I, myself, supported seems superficial, not my cautiously optimistic skepticism of whether it can deliver on what it is aiming for.
I am defending the concept not the finished product or the game itself, though the subject of this topic is Pantheon so I talk about this game. It is actually pretty clear from my posts. Find better arguments to counter act my point of view.
I am defending the concept not the finished product or the game itself, though the subject of this topic is Pantheon so I talk about this game. It is actually pretty clear from my posts. Find better arguments to counter act my point of view.
I thought we were having a cogent conversation. You are picking a fight where there is none my friend.
I am not picking up a fight, just rebutting your veiled accusations of being a fanboy, when it was actually clear I was talking about the genre it belongs to.
I am not the one pointing fingers or patronizing others, like you keep doing. So if there is someone who want to pick up a fight, it is not certainly me.
I would like to have a meaningful conversation. But you should be a bit more open minded and stop categorizing people and games following old tired standards. It is not a good way to carry a conversation.
The Overworld design reminds me a lot of ESO. The ground , grass and rocks look very similar. I dont know if they took any inspiration from that game but it wouldnt bother me if so since I think ESOs world looks fantastic.
I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.
Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one. Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces. PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part. Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion. Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses. Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities. A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have. Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas. This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed.
Well when you have been beat over the head with no risk vs reward, linear quest hub themeparks for 10+ years...I'm not gonna threaten to not play over some older mechanics. These people that say they are not going to try the game must really love the state of the genre as it stands...I envy them.
In my opinion with all the MMORPGs currently available there are enough games to go around and if Pantheon wants to cater to the people who originally loved and want another Everquest I don't see why that is not a valid or feasible idea. There is no need to put down the game for doing exactly what its core fans want and there is also no need to take umbrage when people do criticise it for the same reason.
I am supporting this game for the reason that it will be like Everquest.
I don't know why expressing honest dislike based on a public video is "putting it down"?
We're on a public forum dedicated to MMOs - and we each have our own opinions. Is it a problem to have a negative opinion about games sometimes?
Because that doesn't make any sense to me.
Unless, of course, we just want a huge confirmation fest where no one ever learns anything about each other.
I find it laughable that Yoshi-P is being seen as an authority on what will be successful for Western audiences for MMORPGs. He has made it blatantly obvious that Japan is the priority for FF14. The west reception has always been a wonderful side-effect for them and not a focus. He has no idea what western players love anymore than what a western design team would know about what works for an asian market. You can look at what works and try to emulate that (see WoW clone era) or go with what you know. Final Fantasy 14 went with a design system that Yoshi-P knows and is familiar with and something they thought would work for a Japan centric audience. They've openly talked about that. What makes what Brad and company is doing with Pantheon any different? They're using EQ and Vanguard to a lesser extent as an influence. I'm sure the game will go through plenty of iterations before it hits launch based on player feedback.
I find it laughable that Yoshi-P is being seen as an authority on what will be successful for Western audiences for MMORPGs. He has made it blatantly obvious that Japan is the priority for FF14. The west reception has always been a wonderful side-effect for them and not a focus. He has no idea what western players love anymore than what a western design team would know about what works for an asian market. You can look at what works and try to emulate that (see WoW clone era) or go with what you know. Final Fantasy 14 went with a design system that Yoshi-P knows and is familiar with and something they thought would work for a Japan centric audience. They've openly talked about that. What makes what Brad and company is doing with Pantheon any different? They're using EQ and Vanguard to a lesser extent as an influence. I'm sure the game will go through plenty of iterations before it hits launch based on player feedback.
Mr Yoshida is a highly regarded person in gaming and respected the world over for his contributions to the RPG and MMO genre. His love of the MMO genre goes well beyond just the shores of Japan which is why FFXIV remains one of the most successful sub-based games in the genre. Even in the West.
Yoshi-P is regarded in his success of a reboot of an MMO that was so disastrous that expectations were so low it was at a bargain basement level. I like FF14:ARR and think he deserves accolades for saving the brand. However extrapolating that means his influence extends beyond that says more about your personal taste and opinion of the man than reality.
People should not praise Yoshida or FFXIV. He did a miracle and saved the worst mmo in creation from shutdown and kept the p2p model, major props for that. But what else did they really do that other f2p mmos are not doing. Game is extremely polished but that is it.
Yoshi-P gets credit for saving a mmo that launched so incomplete and disastrous it was without words. No only did FFXIV launch with out endgame, it launched without midgame, early game, major parts of the battle system, and the dev team did alot of Copy Paste through the land scape, by alot I mean whole zones were made of 6-8 landmass designs turned different directions.
I give him little credit after that though, the new version of FFXIV is a WoW clone style game that even now through its first 2 expansions is getting more and more dumbed down and casual as time goes. They are following the same content design over and over and over each patch since 2.0. FFXIV has the same retention problem many games have in the genre currently. It is simply because of their design choices.
Being a large FF fan and someone who played FFXI advidly (about 20,000 ingame hours) I gave them from 1.0 to 3.4 to fix the game, and it was apparent they want it to be something you play in small chunks, something you play with low man groups, something where guild have no real purpose, PvP with litteraly nothing from it, whole open world if solo only - Fates are 20ppl soloing the same mob no interations, raids where it is simpley every class do max dps and dodge the circles, something that where all your work is reset every 6 months. I understand some people love this style of game but myself, my guild of 65 people who were in the game at launch and 2.0, the 143 people who joined and quit the game from my guild in those years very much disagree with the direction he took the game.
This is my opinion, but I disgree with Yoshida's assessment of the genre as a whole. The reason game are not succeeding is because they are no longer virtual worlds, the bonds of players no longer exist, the attachment to your character no longer exist. What made mmos special is they were more then just games back in the day. I grew to know the people I played with, many became friends outside the game. The genre has went too far from what made is something special. Pantheon, while I do not agree with all Brads decisions, I agree with most and I thank him and his team for taking the genre back to its roots and giving the ability to play in my opinion a mmo again.
Pantheon will not be the savior of the genre, most the players in the mmo genre will hate this game. But then again most the genre came to be with the WoW model, and not even the early wow model. This game is for the people without a home, people who do not want the modern casual or action mmo experiance. I do not think the niche is small though. Games were hitting 500k-1mill back in the day with this style. Those players didn't vanish, they are still here. Smaller then the mainstream mmo but still here and we have been without a home for awhile now. We are the people looking to pantheon.
Pantheon will not be the savior of the genre, most the players in the mmo genre will hate this game. But then again most the genre came to be with the WoW model, and not even the early wow model. This game is for the people without a home, people who do not want the modern casual or action mmo experiance. I do not think the niche is small though. Games were hitting 500k-1mill back in the day with this style. Those players didn't vanish, they are still here. Smaller then the mainstream mmo but still here and we have been without a home for awhile now. We are the people looking to pantheon.
I was among those 500K - but that doesn't mean I want to go back in time and play ancient throwbacks.
In the early days, these games were all we had - and there's a GIGANTIC difference between EQ and "the ideal MMO" - and I would claim that most of the fans of the genre played games like UO and EQ because they wanted the fantasy RPG multiplayer experience - not specifically the EQ/UO experience.
Also, most people evolve over time - they don't sit around waiting for a nostalgic trip to latch on to, so they can relive their youth. Such things rarely last.
They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.
I find it laughable that Yoshi-P is being seen as an authority on what will be successful for Western audiences for MMORPGs. He has made it blatantly obvious that Japan is the priority for FF14. The west reception has always been a wonderful side-effect for them and not a focus. He has no idea what western players love anymore than what a western design team would know about what works for an asian market. You can look at what works and try to emulate that (see WoW clone era) or go with what you know. Final Fantasy 14 went with a design system that Yoshi-P knows and is familiar with and something they thought would work for a Japan centric audience. They've openly talked about that. What makes what Brad and company is doing with Pantheon any different? They're using EQ and Vanguard to a lesser extent as an influence. I'm sure the game will go through plenty of iterations before it hits launch based on player feedback.
Mr Yoshida is a highly regarded person in gaming and respected the world over for his contributions to the RPG and MMO genre. His love of the MMO genre goes well beyond just the shores of Japan which is why FFXIV remains one of the most successful sub-based games in the genre. Even in the West.
Gotta admit, he doesnt give up. Took 3 goes to make ff14 work but he eventually got it.
They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.
There's just no way.
Well it is really speculation at this point, isn't it? We can't really prove or disprove that, since there hasn't been any new such game for over a decade. It's like saying a flying car is not going to be popular because nobody is driving it.
At the moment there are no solid numbers that can confirm for sure that Pantheon will bomb, though so many people are so sure that's what is going to happen. There is not even enough material around to make a decent marketing research. At this point is mainly people saying "I don't like it therefore it won't work", hardly a scientific method. We need a real benchmark that provides real data, that's why it is important Pantheon gets made.
Anyone that claims Wow made the mmo genre just shows their level of intellectual understanding of it. Wow did help streamline it; however, it was made mainstream by games like U.O and EQ.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.
There's just no way.
Well it is really speculation at this point, isn't it? We can't really prove or disprove that, since there hasn't been any new such game for over a decade. It's like saying a flying car is not going to be popular because nobody is driving it.
At the moment there are no solid numbers that can confirm for sure that Pantheon will bomb, though so many people are so sure that's what is going to happen. There is not even enough material around to make a decent marketing research. At this point is mainly people saying "I don't like it therefore it won't work", hardly a scientific method. We need a real benchmark that provides real data, that's why it is important Pantheon gets made.
I'm not looking to prove anything, simply to give my view on the matter
I don't feel certain because I'm a scientist - but because I've been a gamer for 34 years, and I've seen everything the genre has to offer. Not only that, but I'm a very enthusiastic student of human nature.
I have absolutely no interest in a "real benchmark" - because I'm not invested in being right about it.
In fact, I'd love to be wrong - because that means a LOT more people will be happy once the game is out. To me, that's a win.
I'd have to be a very petty person to wish failure upon the game.
That's not what I'm about at all.
I'm simply calling it like I see it. Nothing more and nothing less.
They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.
There's just no way.
Well it is really speculation at this point, isn't it? We can't really prove or disprove that, since there hasn't been any new such game for over a decade. It's like saying a flying car is not going to be popular because nobody is driving it.
At the moment there are no solid numbers that can confirm for sure that Pantheon will bomb, though so many people are so sure that's what is going to happen. There is not even enough material around to make a decent marketing research. At this point is mainly people saying "I don't like it therefore it won't work", hardly a scientific method. We need a real benchmark that provides real data, that's why it is important Pantheon gets made.
I'm not looking to prove anything, simply to give my view on the matter
I don't feel certain because I'm a scientist - but because I've been a gamer for 34 years, and I've seen everything the genre has to offer. Not only that, but I'm a very enthusiastic student of human nature.
I have absolutely no interest in a "real benchmark" - because I'm not invested in being right about it.
In fact, I'd love to be wrong - because that means a LOT more people will be happy once the game is out. To me, that's a win.
I'd have to be a very petty person to wish failure upon the game.
That's not what I'm about at all.
I'm simply calling it like I see it. Nothing more and nothing less.
So when you said "There's just no way" you were just offering an opinion. Got it.
They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.
There's just no way.
Well it is really speculation at this point, isn't it? We can't really prove or disprove that, since there hasn't been any new such game for over a decade. It's like saying a flying car is not going to be popular because nobody is driving it.
At the moment there are no solid numbers that can confirm for sure that Pantheon will bomb, though so many people are so sure that's what is going to happen. There is not even enough material around to make a decent marketing research. At this point is mainly people saying "I don't like it therefore it won't work", hardly a scientific method. We need a real benchmark that provides real data, that's why it is important Pantheon gets made.
I'm not looking to prove anything, simply to give my view on the matter
I don't feel certain because I'm a scientist - but because I've been a gamer for 34 years, and I've seen everything the genre has to offer. Not only that, but I'm a very enthusiastic student of human nature.
I have absolutely no interest in a "real benchmark" - because I'm not invested in being right about it.
In fact, I'd love to be wrong - because that means a LOT more people will be happy once the game is out. To me, that's a win.
I'd have to be a very petty person to wish failure upon the game.
That's not what I'm about at all.
I'm simply calling it like I see it. Nothing more and nothing less.
So when you said "There's just no way" you were just offering an opinion. Got it.
That is exactly right. In my opinion, there's absolutely no way Pantheon will make 500K players sustained.
In that same way, I would once have said that there's absolutely no way Donald Trump will be president.
Comments
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It is actually pretty clear from my posts.
Find better arguments to counter act my point of view.
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I am not the one pointing fingers or patronizing others, like you keep doing.
So if there is someone who want to pick up a fight, it is not certainly me.
I would like to have a meaningful conversation.
But you should be a bit more open minded and stop categorizing people and games following old tired standards.
It is not a good way to carry a conversation.
The Overworld design reminds me a lot of ESO. The ground , grass and rocks look very similar. I dont know if they took any inspiration from that game but it wouldnt bother me if so since I think ESOs world looks fantastic.
We're on a public forum dedicated to MMOs - and we each have our own opinions. Is it a problem to have a negative opinion about games sometimes?
Because that doesn't make any sense to me.
Unless, of course, we just want a huge confirmation fest where no one ever learns anything about each other.
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거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Yoshi-P gets credit for saving a mmo that launched so incomplete and disastrous it was without words. No only did FFXIV launch with out endgame, it launched without midgame, early game, major parts of the battle system, and the dev team did alot of Copy Paste through the land scape, by alot I mean whole zones were made of 6-8 landmass designs turned different directions.
I give him little credit after that though, the new version of FFXIV is a WoW clone style game that even now through its first 2 expansions is getting more and more dumbed down and casual as time goes. They are following the same content design over and over and over each patch since 2.0. FFXIV has the same retention problem many games have in the genre currently. It is simply because of their design choices.
Being a large FF fan and someone who played FFXI advidly (about 20,000 ingame hours) I gave them from 1.0 to 3.4 to fix the game, and it was apparent they want it to be something you play in small chunks, something you play with low man groups, something where guild have no real purpose, PvP with litteraly nothing from it, whole open world if solo only - Fates are 20ppl soloing the same mob no interations, raids where it is simpley every class do max dps and dodge the circles, something that where all your work is reset every 6 months. I understand some people love this style of game but myself, my guild of 65 people who were in the game at launch and 2.0, the 143 people who joined and quit the game from my guild in those years very much disagree with the direction he took the game.
This is my opinion, but I disgree with Yoshida's assessment of the genre as a whole. The reason game are not succeeding is because they are no longer virtual worlds, the bonds of players no longer exist, the attachment to your character no longer exist. What made mmos special is they were more then just games back in the day. I grew to know the people I played with, many became friends outside the game. The genre has went too far from what made is something special. Pantheon, while I do not agree with all Brads decisions, I agree with most and I thank him and his team for taking the genre back to its roots and giving the ability to play in my opinion a mmo again.
Pantheon will not be the savior of the genre, most the players in the mmo genre will hate this game. But then again most the genre came to be with the WoW model, and not even the early wow model. This game is for the people without a home, people who do not want the modern casual or action mmo experiance. I do not think the niche is small though. Games were hitting 500k-1mill back in the day with this style. Those players didn't vanish, they are still here. Smaller then the mainstream mmo but still here and we have been without a home for awhile now. We are the people looking to pantheon.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I was among those 500K - but that doesn't mean I want to go back in time and play ancient throwbacks.
In the early days, these games were all we had - and there's a GIGANTIC difference between EQ and "the ideal MMO" - and I would claim that most of the fans of the genre played games like UO and EQ because they wanted the fantasy RPG multiplayer experience - not specifically the EQ/UO experience.
Also, most people evolve over time - they don't sit around waiting for a nostalgic trip to latch on to, so they can relive their youth. Such things rarely last.
They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.
There's just no way.
We can't really prove or disprove that, since there hasn't been any new such game for over a decade.
It's like saying a flying car is not going to be popular because nobody is driving it.
At the moment there are no solid numbers that can confirm for sure that Pantheon will bomb, though so many people are so sure that's what is going to happen.
There is not even enough material around to make a decent marketing research.
At this point is mainly people saying "I don't like it therefore it won't work", hardly a scientific method.
We need a real benchmark that provides real data, that's why it is important Pantheon gets made.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I don't feel certain because I'm a scientist - but because I've been a gamer for 34 years, and I've seen everything the genre has to offer. Not only that, but I'm a very enthusiastic student of human nature.
I have absolutely no interest in a "real benchmark" - because I'm not invested in being right about it.
In fact, I'd love to be wrong - because that means a LOT more people will be happy once the game is out. To me, that's a win.
I'd have to be a very petty person to wish failure upon the game.
That's not what I'm about at all.
I'm simply calling it like I see it. Nothing more and nothing less.
In that same way, I would once have said that there's absolutely no way Donald Trump will be president.
See? An opinion is not fact.
I'm am excited about the game-- as this will be EQ201X-- let their be no doubt.
From the classes to their roles, this is EQ.
Does anyone know if the devs have said anything about combat and runspeed? I will be very upset if they lock down your runspeed in combat like EQ2.
I am a huge proponent of movement buffs that empower classes to kite and for its group utility.