Well according to a self tabulated spreadsheet they release. There is no way of knowing any real figures,
That number is a catch 22 though. If its real they BETTER deliver something pretty decent. if it isnt then its out and out lies to keep the few people who are still buying ships strung along, and that could probably be spun into a fraud case in some court somewhere.
Well according to a self tabulated spreadsheet they release. There is no way of knowing any real figures,
You forget that the Guiness Book of World Records checked the numbers before putting it into the GBWR as the largest crowdfunding success ever, any genre. Confirmation for GBWR usually requires an attesting notary.
Arglebargle said: [...]Right now, CIG has sold ships that would, fully crewed, fill up an entire instance, with no space for friends or foes. For all I know there are ships that, fully crewed, couldn't fit in an instance. The fantasy of a giant, sandbox world has run into the reality of netcode and computer limitation.
Indeed, this is what you get when you showcase the expensive assets before you have any idea how they should work together in the result. And they still didn't found the "fun" in their game > Which is what you do at concept stage and test it with a real pre-alpha.
They've created the most expensive Goat Simulator in the world and the fans are cheering
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
I am completely oblivious as to how you can make a relationship between SC and Goat Simulator, can you please enlighten me in on how you came to that?
Think the point of the comparision is that GOat Simulator is a game built around the implementation of game mechanics individually, before (or possibly without) having a framework for those mechanics to interact together with. It leads to a lot of contradictions, issues, and instability. Some mechanics may work fine together or provide emergent gameplay opportunities, some other ones may very well just make the game crash and burn.
In the case of Goat Simulator that situation was embraced as the design principle for the game, and that works for a niche title. That design philosophy does not work for a AAA title though where everything has to sync up and operate smoothly. The networking layer has to be able to handle everything going on between the server and clients, and every feature added onto that is that much more strain.
A good example of this is the MMOs that chose to leverage the Unreal 3 engine as their platform. With the base networking code, there were some pretty abrupt and hard limitations that forced studios that didn't have a creative solution or good network engineers to try and compromise and cut back on many of their game mechanics. Games like APB found themselves very crippled by it, having to use a simpler form of hit detection and combat mechanics, crippled draw distances, and a rather low player limit (for an MMO) to obtain a "workable" state. Other titles like Tera leveraged the use of instances very heavily. Titles like Mortal looked to plugins that could replace the networking layer in order to work, though in a cumbersome and lag-prone way by injecting the code into the engine.
This game may be much more "ground up" approach, but if certain features of the game outpace the capabilities of the engine they are trying to build to-task, then they are still going to be running into the same kind of problems where they will have to scale back features and content in order to reach a functional state in the long term.
From what I've seen so far I personally would say the game will release, but it will not be in a state or as feature-filled as the intended scope of the game aimed to achieve. The cost of the game will be considerably more than the actual results warrant. And a last point, the rotating per-release content of expensive ships is simply excessive.
TL/DR; There are aspects that are pretty scammy, but there also is a game being developed and it will see release and it may very well be a pretty fun game. It just will not be what people expected from it.
How would an outside developer know any differently than a person who reads about it?
I'm not really following the game, but because of the constant 'fraud' claims that come on the site, I decided to do 15 - 20 minutes of looking around.
Here is a road map that they have put out. Question: Are they following it and working through it. Timelines might not be perfect or even good, but are they making progress? Anyone who has actually planned anything remotely complicated knows that timelines are harder to keep the longer and the more complicated a project is.
Attached is a picture of the top topics of their forum. What I looked for was what they were talking about. Mainly stuff about the game and not the cries of foul we're led to believe. You can always chalk it up to the 'They delete all bad posts, but if you go through, you'll find em.' It's a cop out answer.
Attached is a picture of positions they are advertising for: I'm sure the numerous mmo developers who regularly comment on these things can probably nitpik the numbers, but it shows they are 'doing something.'
All of this can be whitewash, but my guess is that it's legit. I personally wouldn't buy one of those outlandish ships that I've heard about, but if I decide to get into it, I wouldn't mind getting a founders pack. Will it amount to anything? That's any ones guess, but my guess is they're gonna try.
The game CIG is building is not a scam. Wasteful, poorly managed, yeah; but Star Citizen is the pet project of CR. The marketing may be suspect, but they are trying to get a game out.
It's just that nobody can fire the bad managers. Hell, they'll probably get a pay raise.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Given the people involved in the company it is implausible that it is a scam. Why would anyone with that much credibility commit career suicide by creating such a scam. Will it be successful? No-one can answer that question, because no-one has a crystal ball to look into the future. We can at best, guess. What is certain is that there are frequent posts on this site by people who seem to make it their hobby to try and ensure it is not successful by launching into fairly ludicrous statements with no sincere qualifications that they should be taken seriously. It has been the case of business history that lots of great ideas didn't work out that well in the end to lots of complex reasons, and plenty of really crap ideas that turned out to be total gold mines. Who knows - no-one! People who have invested money through crowd-sourcing may be understandably frustrated, that's one thing, but it certainly doesn't do their investment any good thrashing around that frustration to devalue the obvious progress the game has already made. Projects often blow out timelines, and that this one seems to be putting along irrespective, might be a very good indicator that it is actually being held together well. But again, all we can do is speculate, and again, unfortunately, much of the speculation on this site is just rubbish.
Given the people involved in the company it is implausible that it is a scam. Why would anyone with that much credibility commit career suicide by creating such a scam. Will it be successful? No-one can answer that question, because no-one has a crystal ball to look into the future. We can at best, guess. What is certain is that there are frequent posts on this site by people who seem to make it their hobby to try and ensure it is not successful by launching into fairly ludicrous statements with no sincere qualifications that they should be taken seriously. It has been the case of business history that lots of great ideas didn't work out that well in the end to lots of complex reasons, and plenty of really crap ideas that turned out to be total gold mines. Who knows - no-one! People who have invested money through crowd-sourcing may be understandably frustrated, that's one thing, but it certainly doesn't do their investment any good thrashing around that frustration to devalue the obvious progress the game has already made. Projects often blow out timelines, and that this one seems to be putting along irrespective, might be a very good indicator that it is actually being held together well. But again, all we can do is speculate, and again, unfortunately, much of the speculation on this site is just rubbish.
I doubt its a scam and I'd say most, if not all, of the devs on this project are just trying to do their job so not really trying to commit career suicide.
For CR its somewhat impossible to commit career suicide since his died long ago and he's just banking on nostalgia now. There is a lot of speculation from both sides of the fence, myself included, but one just needs to look at how Chris managed his first game company and see history repeating itself to understand why many think he should not be in charge of anything except maybe dreaming up ideas.
Yea, I don't think it is a scam as such. I don't think his plan is to get all the money and run but I do think that maybe the $$ signs got to him a bit. A good example of this is recently (relatively) they released a trailer for the game which turned out to not be advertising the game, but a specific ship you could buy. I do think they've set themselves up for a fall, though, as I cannot see how they could possible live up to the hype and expectation at such a large amount of money. Whether or not the game will be completed and how good it is will remain to be seen... It just seems to me that a lot of time, effort and money is spent in generating more money, when even by the most expansive games made, they have made enough to make it. That does concern me a little. That said, my own investment was small and so I don't really have anything riding on the outcome.
As a 3D artist I can tell you this... with the amount of money at play here, and the fact that some known names are part of the project, it would NOT help their future career options to continue to work on a project that was a scam.
I have met a few of their artist over at one of the Gnomon events and a friend of mine has been over at CIG a few times due to who he knows over there.
The developer confidence is high. Meaning, they believe in their project. For a developer that is very important. They believe in their project, they see the progress, the road map and thus are putting a lot of effort into it.
This is not a scam, the project and the studio behind it is very real and it has some serious (respectable) industry talent driving it.
Its one thing to wonder if the project will succeed or not, and a completely different thing to assume its a scam. The latter I think holds no water given the kind of investments into this project. Its clear they are setting up for the long haul, not a heist.
Also keep in mind this is an age of crowd funding. Its still a bit new, its awkward... it is something that is unique in that its free from the big publisher meddling (for good and for bad). There will be mistakes, there will be new forms of engagement with the community, and new forms of generating development funds. If crowd funding can get out of the awkward phase, the growing pains, then it is a good thing for the consumers and developers alike (as the big publishers can do far more harm than good).
CIG is testing new waters, it will seem odd to some... but just remember that this is an AAA approach with crowdfunding and no big money bag publisher. Nothing like this has been done before, so either way there is a lot to learn from what CIG is doing and they know this as well.
I don't think the managers and stuff would go around telling the regular grunts that it was a scam :P I don't think anyone contests that they are making a game of some description.
Edit: Not that I think its a scam. See my post above. As a 3D artist myself, working on SC would be a great thing to put on your CV, even if it does turn out bad. The scope of the game and art alone would be worth it. Its not like a random 3d artist is going to get blamed for it being a scam, not when the company is so big. I don't know about the US, but in the UK the only contact 3d artists have with money is when they get paid :P
I don't think the managers and stuff would go around telling the regular grunts that it was a scam :P I don't think anyone contests that they are making a game of some description.
Edit: Not that I think its a scam. See my post above. As a 3D artist myself, working on SC would be a great thing to put on your CV, even if it does turn out bad. The scope of the game and art alone would be worth it. Its not like a random 3d artist is going to get blamed for it being a scam, not when the company is so big. I don't know about the US, but in the UK the only contact 3d artists have with money is when they get paid :P
I don't think its just the "grunts" that be in the dark if that were true as the art leads themselves have quite a lot of faith and confidence in this project. I would give experienced developers enough credibility to sense if something was amiss. I mean people are not necessarily working blind here, all it takes is a few to sense something is off and well that spreads.
You mentioned the size of studio, which I think is relevant. Clearly the studio is growing in size, big investments are being made and not just with hiring talent (developers and actors). If this were a scam, then that's a pretty lousy way of hoarding the money you are scamming. Spending it in the way CIG has is not in line with scamming people out of money, since it doesnt seem like Chris or anyone else wants to keep it. This means even on the management end, they are showing "confidence" in their project. The "grunts" also pick up on this.
If Chris Robert's goal was to get some attention, then failing to deliver would be the opposite of kind of attention he would want. Any future attempt at a crowd sourced project would fall flat due to low consumer trust. Would any big publisher want to take on any of his projects at that point either? Probably not.
There is just nothing for CIG's management to gain by any form of scam. Whether its trickle up or trickle down developer confidence, it is there and thats generally not going to be present on such a scale if any scam is present. My point being that developers are going to pick up on their environment, the project they work on, and the interest they have in the project. I'm sure we all know that one guy who just wants to get paid and does not care about anything else... his work is usually low energy... more like going through the motions rather than being invested on a personal level with the project. I am seeing, at least from who I have talked to, the compete opposite of that in at CIG. We often say here, if there is smoke, there is fire. In the same vein, I believe if that kind of enthusiasm and confidence is present with the development team after all this, then there must be something there to cause it.
I get what you are saying though, just would contend it goes a bit deeper on this kind of "rule breaking" (it kind of is) project. SC is definitely doing something new, sink or swim there will be a lot to learn and/or copy from whats being done so far.
The game has followers because we are all cultists, delusional and such. The game is bad and awful, it's going to fail and we are all going to commit suicide then (not my words btw).
ps: nice touch with No Man's Sky shown as one of the games that would destroy SC. Oups!
Well , it least No Man's Sky is released, playable and updated! Can't say that about SC !
PS: Also no kickstarter for NMS . Oups !
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
I don't think the managers and stuff would go around telling the regular grunts that it was a scam :P I don't think anyone contests that they are making a game of some description.
Edit: Not that I think its a scam. See my post above. As a 3D artist myself, working on SC would be a great thing to put on your CV, even if it does turn out bad. The scope of the game and art alone would be worth it. Its not like a random 3d artist is going to get blamed for it being a scam, not when the company is so big. I don't know about the US, but in the UK the only contact 3d artists have with money is when they get paid :P
I don't think its just the "grunts" that be in the dark if that were true as the art leads themselves have quite a lot of faith and confidence in this project. I would give experienced developers enough credibility to sense if something was amiss. I mean people are not necessarily working blind here, all it takes is a few to sense something is off and well that spreads.
You mentioned the size of studio, which I think is relevant. Clearly the studio is growing in size, big investments are being made and not just with hiring talent (developers and actors). If this were a scam, then that's a pretty lousy way of hoarding the money you are scamming. Spending it in the way CIG has is not in line with scamming people out of money, since it doesnt seem like Chris or anyone else wants to keep it. This means even on the management end, they are showing "confidence" in their project. The "grunts" also pick up on this.
If Chris Robert's goal was to get some attention, then failing to deliver would be the opposite of kind of attention he would want. Any future attempt at a crowd sourced project would fall flat due to low consumer trust. Would any big publisher want to take on any of his projects at that point either? Probably not.
There is just nothing for CIG's management to gain by any form of scam. Whether its trickle up or trickle down developer confidence, it is there and thats generally not going to be present on such a scale if any scam is present. My point being that developers are going to pick up on their environment, the project they work on, and the interest they have in the project. I'm sure we all know that one guy who just wants to get paid and does not care about anything else... his work is usually low energy... more like going through the motions rather than being invested on a personal level with the project. I am seeing, at least from who I have talked to, the compete opposite of that in at CIG. We often say here, if there is smoke, there is fire. In the same vein, I believe if that kind of enthusiasm and confidence is present with the development team after all this, then there must be something there to cause it.
I get what you are saying though, just would contend it goes a bit deeper on this kind of "rule breaking" (it kind of is) project. SC is definitely doing something new, sink or swim there will be a lot to learn and/or copy from whats being done so far.
I don't think SC is an intentional scam, but do you know how money laundering works? You steal the money, you open a business, you make money doing that business. Sure, you only make a fraction of the original investment, but those money are now legal and free to be spent however you want. If this was a scam it would be great, because, without investing a dollar, Christ Roberts has secured a decade of a lavish lifestyle for himself, plus all the cash he would leave for himself after liquidating the company's assets, which were also bought for free money. If he just took the money and ran he could've gotten himself in trouble. If took the money, spent most of it and then said "well, we tried, see ya", he would walk away scoff free.
Sorry Crowdfunding IS NOT THE SAME AS GETTING INVESTORS.
It's the modern alternative to investors.. and there's no real reason to yell.
Does the law consider them investors for all the rights and responsibilities that comes with being an 'investor'? The law is what matters not people on a forum who feels they entitled to be acknowledge as investors.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I don't think the managers and stuff would go around telling the regular grunts that it was a scam :P I don't think anyone contests that they are making a game of some description.
Edit: Not that I think its a scam. See my post above. As a 3D artist myself, working on SC would be a great thing to put on your CV, even if it does turn out bad. The scope of the game and art alone would be worth it. Its not like a random 3d artist is going to get blamed for it being a scam, not when the company is so big. I don't know about the US, but in the UK the only contact 3d artists have with money is when they get paid :P
I don't think its just the "grunts" that be in the dark if that were true as the art leads themselves have quite a lot of faith and confidence in this project. I would give experienced developers enough credibility to sense if something was amiss. I mean people are not necessarily working blind here, all it takes is a few to sense something is off and well that spreads.
You mentioned the size of studio, which I think is relevant. Clearly the studio is growing in size, big investments are being made and not just with hiring talent (developers and actors). If this were a scam, then that's a pretty lousy way of hoarding the money you are scamming. Spending it in the way CIG has is not in line with scamming people out of money, since it doesnt seem like Chris or anyone else wants to keep it. This means even on the management end, they are showing "confidence" in their project. The "grunts" also pick up on this.
If Chris Robert's goal was to get some attention, then failing to deliver would be the opposite of kind of attention he would want. Any future attempt at a crowd sourced project would fall flat due to low consumer trust. Would any big publisher want to take on any of his projects at that point either? Probably not.
There is just nothing for CIG's management to gain by any form of scam. Whether its trickle up or trickle down developer confidence, it is there and thats generally not going to be present on such a scale if any scam is present. My point being that developers are going to pick up on their environment, the project they work on, and the interest they have in the project. I'm sure we all know that one guy who just wants to get paid and does not care about anything else... his work is usually low energy... more like going through the motions rather than being invested on a personal level with the project. I am seeing, at least from who I have talked to, the compete opposite of that in at CIG. We often say here, if there is smoke, there is fire. In the same vein, I believe if that kind of enthusiasm and confidence is present with the development team after all this, then there must be something there to cause it.
I get what you are saying though, just would contend it goes a bit deeper on this kind of "rule breaking" (it kind of is) project. SC is definitely doing something new, sink or swim there will be a lot to learn and/or copy from whats being done so far.
I don't think SC is an intentional scam, but do you know how money laundering works? You steal the money, you open a business, you make money doing that business. Sure, you only make a fraction of the original investment, but those money are now legal and free to be spent however you want. If this was a scam it would be great, because, without investing a dollar, Christ Roberts has secured a decade of a lavish lifestyle for himself, plus all the cash he would leave for himself after liquidating the company's assets, which were also bought for free money. If he just took the money and ran he could've gotten himself in trouble. If took the money, spent most of it and then said "well, we tried, see ya", he would walk away scoff free.
Yeah, but you know how businesses work, right? Remember that he's got over 300 employees and it's been agreed upon both by Chris and the more radical side of the fence that it costs in excess of 30 million annually in order to run. If you actually plot that out over a timeline based on their employees, I'm sure you'd find their funding isn't going to be providing anyone with any amount of lavish lifestyle any time soon.
I don't think the managers and stuff would go around telling the regular grunts that it was a scam :P I don't think anyone contests that they are making a game of some description.
Edit: Not that I think its a scam. See my post above. As a 3D artist myself, working on SC would be a great thing to put on your CV, even if it does turn out bad. The scope of the game and art alone would be worth it. Its not like a random 3d artist is going to get blamed for it being a scam, not when the company is so big. I don't know about the US, but in the UK the only contact 3d artists have with money is when they get paid :P
I don't think its just the "grunts" that be in the dark if that were true as the art leads themselves have quite a lot of faith and confidence in this project. I would give experienced developers enough credibility to sense if something was amiss. I mean people are not necessarily working blind here, all it takes is a few to sense something is off and well that spreads.
You mentioned the size of studio, which I think is relevant. Clearly the studio is growing in size, big investments are being made and not just with hiring talent (developers and actors). If this were a scam, then that's a pretty lousy way of hoarding the money you are scamming. Spending it in the way CIG has is not in line with scamming people out of money, since it doesnt seem like Chris or anyone else wants to keep it. This means even on the management end, they are showing "confidence" in their project. The "grunts" also pick up on this.
If Chris Robert's goal was to get some attention, then failing to deliver would be the opposite of kind of attention he would want. Any future attempt at a crowd sourced project would fall flat due to low consumer trust. Would any big publisher want to take on any of his projects at that point either? Probably not.
There is just nothing for CIG's management to gain by any form of scam. Whether its trickle up or trickle down developer confidence, it is there and thats generally not going to be present on such a scale if any scam is present. My point being that developers are going to pick up on their environment, the project they work on, and the interest they have in the project. I'm sure we all know that one guy who just wants to get paid and does not care about anything else... his work is usually low energy... more like going through the motions rather than being invested on a personal level with the project. I am seeing, at least from who I have talked to, the compete opposite of that in at CIG. We often say here, if there is smoke, there is fire. In the same vein, I believe if that kind of enthusiasm and confidence is present with the development team after all this, then there must be something there to cause it.
I get what you are saying though, just would contend it goes a bit deeper on this kind of "rule breaking" (it kind of is) project. SC is definitely doing something new, sink or swim there will be a lot to learn and/or copy from whats being done so far.
I don't think SC is an intentional scam, but do you know how money laundering works? You steal the money, you open a business, you make money doing that business. Sure, you only make a fraction of the original investment, but those money are now legal and free to be spent however you want. If this was a scam it would be great, because, without investing a dollar, Christ Roberts has secured a decade of a lavish lifestyle for himself, plus all the cash he would leave for himself after liquidating the company's assets, which were also bought for free money. If he just took the money and ran he could've gotten himself in trouble. If took the money, spent most of it and then said "well, we tried, see ya", he would walk away scoff free.
Yeah, but you know how businesses work, right? Remember that he's got over 300 employees and it's been agreed upon both by Chris and the more radical side of the fence that it costs in excess of 30 million annually in order to run. If you actually plot that out over a timeline based on their employees, I'm sure you'd find their funding isn't going to be providing anyone with any amount of lavish lifestyle any time soon.
I've put money into the game. I've only put money into the game that I don't care about parting with. Since 2.5 dropped I've put more time into the ALPHA than any other game this year and enjoyed it very much.
I look at it as supporting the company, and investing in something that could be great. From my perspective, the 600 bucks I've put in has already been worth it. I've gotten more than that out in enjoyment in my eyes.
600 bucks!?!?!! You may say, but that was what I determined I was comfortable with putting in. If the game as promised never releases, I still feel I got my monies worth.
That number is different for everyone. If you don't feel you are getting your monies worth for your 'investment' you shouldn't be putting that money into the project in the first place. What is so hard to understand?
There is a, in my opinion, fun game already, and it just keeps getting more and more features added. I've lost nothing.
Why do people insist on complaining about it. If you aren't invested, it's no skin off your nose. If you are and you felt like you've put in too much money... Well, you have one person to blame for that. Yourself.
Why do people insist on complaining about it. If you aren't invested, it's no skin off your nose. If you are and you felt like you've put in too much money... Well, you have one person to blame for that. Yourself.
To be fair to those backers who are not happy with the way ways things have changed, Chris has flip flopped on a great many of the things he said in the first two years when discussing the game and taking backer funds
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Why do people insist on complaining about it. If you aren't invested, it's no skin off your nose. If you are and you felt like you've put in too much money... Well, you have one person to blame for that. Yourself.
To be fair to those backers who are not happy with the way ways things have changed, Chris has flip flopped on a great many of the things he said in the first two years when discussing the game and taking backer funds
I've been a backer since August 2013. What are these, 'great many' things that are not going to be in the final game that were promised? I can think of things that have changed, and there have been quite a lot of things added, but I can't think of any that have been nixed that were promised. That's not to say there aren't any, I just can't think of any.
People still look at this wrong. It's an investment. If you feel you won't be getting your monies worth, you shouldn't put your money in. Investment is ALWAYS a risk. It NEVER turns out exactly as it was pitched. This is life, this is fact. You can hope you get a return on it, that being fun, money back, recognition, etc depending on your expectations.
My fact stands. When you INVEST in ANY crowd funded project you should fully realize that there is a risk you won't like what you are getting. You should then determine if it is still worth it to put the money in.
Things have, and always will, change. That's true of anything in life.
I don't think SC is an intentional scam, but do you know how money laundering works? You steal the money, you open a business, you make money doing that business. Sure, you only make a fraction of the original investment, but those money are now legal and free to be spent however you want. If this was a scam it would be great, because, without investing a dollar, Christ Roberts has secured a decade of a lavish lifestyle for himself, plus all the cash he would leave for himself after liquidating the company's assets, which were also bought for free money. If he just took the money and ran he could've gotten himself in trouble. If took the money, spent most of it and then said "well, we tried, see ya", he would walk away scoff free.
Yeah, but you know how businesses work, right? Remember that he's got over 300 employees and it's been agreed upon both by Chris and the more radical side of the fence that it costs in excess of 30 million annually in order to run. If you actually plot that out over a timeline based on their employees, I'm sure you'd find their funding isn't going to be providing anyone with any amount of lavish lifestyle any time soon.
Ok...... First off, this is AWESOME!!!! Did you do this yourself? If so, kudos man, I love that! I totally did something similar when I had fucks to give on the subject (when I thought I'd be able to convince people otherwise).
Now!!! Down to business, the numbers will be a bit skewed. Why? Ok, first of all they are very non-specific. For instance, it says $66k per year for a "Programmer". Meanwhile, a Software Developer makes $85k, apparently. Better still, if you want a Senior Software Developer, they make $120k. It really all boils down to experience. What sucks is that glass door in the US doesn't appear to show averages on a per company basis, which would be nice to get industry sampling. I've used the Canadian site in the past to review competitor averages, etc. Either way, I think it's a bit of a broad brush, especially with the Programmer. I think you'd be more likely to find that half, or more, of that development staff is making significantly more than $66k.
Also, I'm surprised at the contractor numbers. You generally pay a premium for them. I'm not sure whether the sheet is just using the same glassdoor data or what, but contractor salaries can be inflated for the same reason full timers are (because they need to pay for benefits, etc). Either way, in addition to salaries, this doesn't take into account the labor burden which are the costs of having those employees. This can vary from a low of like 50ish % up to 100% or more!!! It's retarded!! So even if you said that the average office salary was $70k, 270 people would end up costing like $19000000 in salaries. Then your labor burden could be anywhere from $10000000 to $19000000 depending on cost of having those people. Although, if only half were full-time then that number might be more like $5,000,000-$10,000,000. Either way, you're pushing $30 million. It's not unrealistic at all. Plus, since both CR and DS estimated the burn to be around $30 annually, I think that's probably pretty accurate.
Comments
That number is a catch 22 though. If its real they BETTER deliver something pretty decent. if it isnt then its out and out lies to keep the few people who are still buying ships strung along, and that could probably be spun into a fraud case in some court somewhere.
Have fun
And they still didn't found the "fun" in their game > Which is what you do at concept stage and test it with a real pre-alpha.
They've created the most expensive Goat Simulator in the world and the fans are cheering
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
In the case of Goat Simulator that situation was embraced as the design principle for the game, and that works for a niche title. That design philosophy does not work for a AAA title though where everything has to sync up and operate smoothly. The networking layer has to be able to handle everything going on between the server and clients, and every feature added onto that is that much more strain.
A good example of this is the MMOs that chose to leverage the Unreal 3 engine as their platform. With the base networking code, there were some pretty abrupt and hard limitations that forced studios that didn't have a creative solution or good network engineers to try and compromise and cut back on many of their game mechanics. Games like APB found themselves very crippled by it, having to use a simpler form of hit detection and combat mechanics, crippled draw distances, and a rather low player limit (for an MMO) to obtain a "workable" state. Other titles like Tera leveraged the use of instances very heavily. Titles like Mortal looked to plugins that could replace the networking layer in order to work, though in a cumbersome and lag-prone way by injecting the code into the engine.
This game may be much more "ground up" approach, but if certain features of the game outpace the capabilities of the engine they are trying to build to-task, then they are still going to be running into the same kind of problems where they will have to scale back features and content in order to reach a functional state in the long term.
From what I've seen so far I personally would say the game will release, but it will not be in a state or as feature-filled as the intended scope of the game aimed to achieve. The cost of the game will be considerably more than the actual results warrant. And a last point, the rotating per-release content of expensive ships is simply excessive.
TL/DR; There are aspects that are pretty scammy, but there also is a game being developed and it will see release and it may very well be a pretty fun game. It just will not be what people expected from it.
I'm not really following the game, but because of the constant 'fraud' claims that come on the site, I decided to do 15 - 20 minutes of looking around.
Here is a road map that they have put out. Question: Are they following it and working through it. Timelines might not be perfect or even good, but are they making progress? Anyone who has actually planned anything remotely complicated knows that timelines are harder to keep the longer and the more complicated a project is.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Attached is a picture of the top topics of their forum. What I looked for was what they were talking about. Mainly stuff about the game and not the cries of foul we're led to believe. You can always chalk it up to the 'They delete all bad posts, but if you go through, you'll find em.' It's a cop out answer.
Attached is a picture of positions they are advertising for: I'm sure the numerous mmo developers who regularly comment on these things can probably nitpik the numbers, but it shows they are 'doing something.'
All of this can be whitewash, but my guess is that it's legit. I personally wouldn't buy one of those outlandish ships that I've heard about, but if I decide to get into it, I wouldn't mind getting a founders pack. Will it amount to anything? That's any ones guess, but my guess is they're gonna try.
I self identify as a monkey.
The game CIG is building is not a scam. Wasteful, poorly managed, yeah; but Star Citizen is the pet project of CR. The marketing may be suspect, but they are trying to get a game out.
It's just that nobody can fire the bad managers. Hell, they'll probably get a pay raise.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I doubt its a scam and I'd say most, if not all, of the devs on this project are just trying to do their job so not really trying to commit career suicide.
For CR its somewhat impossible to commit career suicide since his died long ago and he's just banking on nostalgia now. There is a lot of speculation from both sides of the fence, myself included, but one just needs to look at how Chris managed his first game company and see history repeating itself to understand why many think he should not be in charge of anything except maybe dreaming up ideas.
I have met a few of their artist over at one of the Gnomon events and a friend of mine has been over at CIG a few times due to who he knows over there.
The developer confidence is high. Meaning, they believe in their project. For a developer that is very important. They believe in their project, they see the progress, the road map and thus are putting a lot of effort into it.
This is not a scam, the project and the studio behind it is very real and it has some serious (respectable) industry talent driving it.
Its one thing to wonder if the project will succeed or not, and a completely different thing to assume its a scam. The latter I think holds no water given the kind of investments into this project. Its clear they are setting up for the long haul, not a heist.
Also keep in mind this is an age of crowd funding. Its still a bit new, its awkward... it is something that is unique in that its free from the big publisher meddling (for good and for bad). There will be mistakes, there will be new forms of engagement with the community, and new forms of generating development funds. If crowd funding can get out of the awkward phase, the growing pains, then it is a good thing for the consumers and developers alike (as the big publishers can do far more harm than good).
CIG is testing new waters, it will seem odd to some... but just remember that this is an AAA approach with crowdfunding and no big money bag publisher. Nothing like this has been done before, so either way there is a lot to learn from what CIG is doing and they know this as well.
Edit: Not that I think its a scam. See my post above. As a 3D artist myself, working on SC would be a great thing to put on your CV, even if it does turn out bad. The scope of the game and art alone would be worth it. Its not like a random 3d artist is going to get blamed for it being a scam, not when the company is so big. I don't know about the US, but in the UK the only contact 3d artists have with money is when they get paid :P
You mentioned the size of studio, which I think is relevant. Clearly the studio is growing in size, big investments are being made and not just with hiring talent (developers and actors). If this were a scam, then that's a pretty lousy way of hoarding the money you are scamming. Spending it in the way CIG has is not in line with scamming people out of money, since it doesnt seem like Chris or anyone else wants to keep it. This means even on the management end, they are showing "confidence" in their project. The "grunts" also pick up on this.
If Chris Robert's goal was to get some attention, then failing to deliver would be the opposite of kind of attention he would want. Any future attempt at a crowd sourced project would fall flat due to low consumer trust. Would any big publisher want to take on any of his projects at that point either? Probably not.
There is just nothing for CIG's management to gain by any form of scam. Whether its trickle up or trickle down developer confidence, it is there and thats generally not going to be present on such a scale if any scam is present. My point being that developers are going to pick up on their environment, the project they work on, and the interest they have in the project. I'm sure we all know that one guy who just wants to get paid and does not care about anything else... his work is usually low energy... more like going through the motions rather than being invested on a personal level with the project. I am seeing, at least from who I have talked to, the compete opposite of that in at CIG. We often say here, if there is smoke, there is fire. In the same vein, I believe if that kind of enthusiasm and confidence is present with the development team after all this, then there must be something there to cause it.
I get what you are saying though, just would contend it goes a bit deeper on this kind of "rule breaking" (it kind of is) project. SC is definitely doing something new, sink or swim there will be a lot to learn and/or copy from whats being done so far.
PS: Also no kickstarter for NMS . Oups !
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Does the law consider them investors for all the rights and responsibilities that comes with being an 'investor'? The law is what matters not people on a forum who feels they entitled to be acknowledge as investors.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Yeah, but you know how businesses work, right? Remember that he's got over 300 employees and it's been agreed upon both by Chris and the more radical side of the fence that it costs in excess of 30 million annually in order to run. If you actually plot that out over a timeline based on their employees, I'm sure you'd find their funding isn't going to be providing anyone with any amount of lavish lifestyle any time soon.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Sorry not 300 but 268 and he said a mix of contractors and employees. What is the mix 90% contractors or 90% workers. Makes a huge difference. Based on this - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VTeRb3ONf_ZE9o_-KMGu89xDyzftTNae9Ia3Gfet_ww/edit#gid=1235646718 CIS is 50% contractors. Also, pay at 40K in Santa Barbara, CA would be considered welfare wage elsewhere in the country - that is nothing at all.
I look at it as supporting the company, and investing in something that could be great. From my perspective, the 600 bucks I've put in has already been worth it. I've gotten more than that out in enjoyment in my eyes.
600 bucks!?!?!! You may say, but that was what I determined I was comfortable with putting in. If the game as promised never releases, I still feel I got my monies worth.
That number is different for everyone. If you don't feel you are getting your monies worth for your 'investment' you shouldn't be putting that money into the project in the first place. What is so hard to understand?
There is a, in my opinion, fun game already, and it just keeps getting more and more features added. I've lost nothing.
Why do people insist on complaining about it. If you aren't invested, it's no skin off your nose. If you are and you felt like you've put in too much money... Well, you have one person to blame for that. Yourself.
Ok...... First off, this is AWESOME!!!! Did you do this yourself? If so, kudos man, I love that! I totally did something similar when I had fucks to give on the subject (when I thought I'd be able to convince people otherwise).
Now!!! Down to business, the numbers will be a bit skewed. Why? Ok, first of all they are very non-specific. For instance, it says $66k per year for a "Programmer". Meanwhile, a Software Developer makes $85k, apparently. Better still, if you want a Senior Software Developer, they make $120k. It really all boils down to experience. What sucks is that glass door in the US doesn't appear to show averages on a per company basis, which would be nice to get industry sampling. I've used the Canadian site in the past to review competitor averages, etc. Either way, I think it's a bit of a broad brush, especially with the Programmer. I think you'd be more likely to find that half, or more, of that development staff is making significantly more than $66k.
Also, I'm surprised at the contractor numbers. You generally pay a premium for them. I'm not sure whether the sheet is just using the same glassdoor data or what, but contractor salaries can be inflated for the same reason full timers are (because they need to pay for benefits, etc). Either way, in addition to salaries, this doesn't take into account the labor burden which are the costs of having those employees. This can vary from a low of like 50ish % up to 100% or more!!! It's retarded!! So even if you said that the average office salary was $70k, 270 people would end up costing like $19000000 in salaries. Then your labor burden could be anywhere from $10000000 to $19000000 depending on cost of having those people. Although, if only half were full-time then that number might be more like $5,000,000-$10,000,000. Either way, you're pushing $30 million. It's not unrealistic at all. Plus, since both CR and DS estimated the burn to be around $30 annually, I think that's probably pretty accurate.
Either way, though, it's a fucking cool link!
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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