I just remembered another fun "class" from the past, which was my cloaky engineer in Planetside. Oh man, I haven't played that game in ten years, but I can still clearly remember some of the best times from it.
I built an engineer character with a cloak suit and a cloaked ATV. I would fill my backpack with anti-tank mines and repeatedly drive to the nearest chokepoints, like bridges or natural valleys, and mine the shit out of them. I had two jobs, killing enemy armor and hunting snipers, and I relished both jobs equally. Snipers used to get so mad when a cloaky engineer with an autopistol uncloaked and ended their killing spree.
Honestly, that was the only fun I had in Planetside 2 really. Of course, they removed character builds, so I was stuck with the pre-built, shitty infiltration class, but hunting snipers during a big fight with a cloak and a giant OSK pistol... lol. Loved it.
Most favorite classes are good memmories of old....
I dont see many people referring to more recent games like GW2... Which for example in my book has some reall highlights... espescially the engineer...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Hands down. Nothing even comes close that I have experienced. I've tried WoW several times but I can't get beyond the game play and the GRAPHICS. Besides, I haven't seen the customization of CoH anywhere.
So looking thru this thread we see an overwhelming tilt to Older games , Vanguard,EQ , CoH, AoC,SWG .. etc .. Why has class devlopment gotten worse over the years ?
All these classes folks listing , and i have played many of them were so much more involved , is that the word i want , they felt more special in what they brought to a group mechaic, than what the new crop of games offer , they had/have better utilities etc.. More fleshed out and fun ..More cohesive ...
Another thing i notice is a strong contingent of Vanguard and EQ votes , and BM had his fingerprints on both which gives me hope for the classes and experience coming up in Pantheon ...
The reason for this is that old school games actually had classes. Modern MMOs do not have classes...they have 6-8 of the same character with a different skin. Every character can do everything so that everyone gets a trophy. Warriors can buff, debuff, heal, tank, and dps....so can clerics, wizards, rogues, druids, etc... In old school games, characters had a role to play (roleplaying game..imagine that...) and every single one of them brought value to a group. People don't like modern MMOs classes because they are all just generic cookie cutter garbage.
The best class I played was an Enchanter in EQ1...The reason why? In groups and raids, my character did no damage, didnt do any heals, but yet was considered a very valuable team member......How many games today can you have a class that can say that?
The best class I played was an Enchanter in EQ1...The reason why? In groups and raids, my character did no damage, didnt do any heals, but yet was considered a very valuable team member......How many games today can you have a class that can say that?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Hands down. Nothing even comes close that I have experienced. I've tried WoW several times but I can't get beyond the game play and the GRAPHICS. Besides, I haven't seen the customization of CoH anywhere.
CoH was a different kind of game. Loved it. Loved watching my firekin pets bouncing around as they ran around. The variety of controllers was amazing. Oh well, we can't have these kinds of games.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I think the hardest aspect for unique classes is the conditioned belief of balance between classes. I hope to see an mmo someday that takes the ideas of past mmos (class diversity) and creates content that actual requires more than just 3 roles. I don't want them to abandon the trinity. I would just like to see it expanded on.
I would love to see them expand the roles but I really don't believe they want to spend the resources on something they have work at to balance.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Are classes today worse or just catering to a crowd that wants different things.
I will say classes are typically not as diverse which may be worse. However you also are not locked into a class that is as rigid as past ones, which is imo better. Personally I like being kind of fluid. Eq bards were awesome for that.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I was just discussing this situation with a friend of mine. His viewpoint was an interesting one. He claimed that back in the day the players fit roles to the skillsets, whereas today the developers fit the skillsets to the roles. I believe there is a lot of truth to that, however I think that's just one aspect of a larger problem. I've noticed several people have discussed that this result is from the lack of adherence to the trinity. I think its the opposite. Too great of an empowerment to the trinity and an empowerment of tanks, and to some extent healers, specifically. Typically, we think of the trinity as Tank - Healer - DPS, when in truth, its roles are more akin to Control - Mitigation - Damage. Tanks embody two out of three of these roles. They mitigate incoming damage (drastically in modern mmos), they also lock down enemy aggro (basically the ultimate CC). Healers are capable of full mitigation (and in modern mmos can often do so completely and without limit). And now all that's left is damage. Healers and tanks have to be able to do some damage as well (otherwise they can't fight by themselves), so the DPS output of pure DPS classes has to fall between slightly better than tank/healers to absurdly high. Since there would be design issues in absurdly high DPS, there is little room left in which to define a DPS class, as the rest of the roles have been completely subsumed by the Tank and Healer. FFXIV is a great example of this, where the tank and healer carry the group (IIRC most content has been beaten with just WAR and WHM), and the DPS are just the filler.
In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
I disagree. The differences between classes is about choices and balance. A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it. Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.
Everyone should be able to deal damage. DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is. WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second. After this, combat became all about "the damage."
For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes. How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon? What mechanic id this?
GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.
To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences. Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same. Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others. But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.
When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.
In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
I disagree. The differences between classes is about choices and balance. A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it. Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.
Everyone should be able to deal damage. DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is. WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second. After this, combat became all about "the damage."
For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes. How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon? What mechanic id this?
GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.
To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences. Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same. Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others. But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.
When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.
Just my opinion, of course.
Actually the orriginal trinity in EQ and DAoC was tank, healer, cc....
it was wow that removed the CC class and made dps classes a requirement, instead of simplifying classroles even more i think the answer definately is in a change to the trinnity where everyone can dps but also has a main role like tank, healer, cc, buffer, debuffef
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Original EQ.... Enchanter. So much fun dropping a dagger by noobie log in Neriak then cast minor illusion. Then watch people try to pick me up. XD I miss crowd control classes. Ha we almost had to kill our tank once when the beholders charmed him and had him attack us. The good old days.
Necromancer GWs1, awesome fun and with the way GWs skills were set up, just so many different ways to play. Aaaaaaah the good old days of Ecto farming duo Underworld With SS necro and a 55 monk. For me no MMO has come remotely close to the diversity and choice of builds and play styles.
Are classes today worse or just catering to a crowd that wants different things.
I will say classes are typically not as diverse which may be worse. However you also are not locked into a class that is as rigid as past ones, which is imo better. Personally I like being kind of fluid. Eq bards were awesome for that.
In my opinion, class diversity has been slowly getting worse over the years.
However, in the early days of MMOs, even though the class diversity was there, the combat lacked depth in a lot of early games. For example, something like SWG had amazing diversity, yet the combat was pretty shallow (the depth was in character customisation rather than actual combat).
I think the sweet spot was 2005-2010 ish.
The games that came out in this era still had a decent amount of class diversity but the combat had advanced enough to have a decent amount of depth. Post 2010 (or perhaps earlier), games started simplifying again so the diversity was lost and the recent action-combat trend has removed nearly all depth from combat.
In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
I disagree. The differences between classes is about choices and balance. A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it. Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.
Everyone should be able to deal damage. DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is. WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second. After this, combat became all about "the damage."
For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes. How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon? What mechanic id this?
GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.
To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences. Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same. Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others. But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.
When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.
Just my opinion, of course.
Actually the orriginal trinity in EQ and DAoC was tank, healer, cc....
it was wow that removed the CC class and made dps classes a requirement, instead of simplifying classroles even more i think the answer definately is in a change to the trinnity where everyone can dps but also has a main role like tank, healer, cc, buffer, debuffef
Support classes were great. CC is fun imo. I also love classes that debuff.
Players complaining about CC really used to annoy me. Can't take the heat don't play. Same with people who don't like class based systems. Don't like it don't play it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
I disagree. The differences between classes is about choices and balance. A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it. Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.
Everyone should be able to deal damage. DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is. WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second. After this, combat became all about "the damage."
For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes. How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon? What mechanic id this?
GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.
To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences. Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same. Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others. But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.
When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.
Just my opinion, of course.
Very well said! It seems like a generational difference. Very old pnp dnder here and I love classes. We did accept it but then a new group of people came into gaming that wanted it all now. This being able to switch classes idea is just catering to them. It feels like we went from players having fun together to me me me. Stupid snowflakes!
My old vanilla/tbc guild had a no damage meter rule. One warning then kicked from the raid if you did it again. Get rid of the numbers and let players figure it out the old fashion way.
Bring back CC and Debuffing and the rest for Gygax sake.
I posted this video (2 HR) a while back. It brought back to me all the old feelings about when we played back then and how it is has changed.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Original EQ.... Enchanter. So much fun dropping a dagger by noobie log in Neriak then cast minor illusion. Then watch people try to pick me up. XD I miss crowd control classes. Ha we almost had to kill our tank once when the beholders charmed him and had him attack us. The good old days.
One of old EQ friends just loves his Enchanter. He hates newer mmoRPGs because things like lack of CC and how dumbed down it has become. To quote him: "games are so dumbed down that people think actually think they have evolved".
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
I disagree. The differences between classes is about choices and balance. A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it. Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.
Everyone should be able to deal damage. DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is. WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second. After this, combat became all about "the damage."
For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes. How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon? What mechanic id this?
GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.
To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences. Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same. Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others. But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.
When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.
Just my opinion, of course.
Very well said! It seems like a generational difference. Very old pnp dnder here and I love classes. We did accept it but then a new group of people came into gaming that wanted it all now. This being able to switch classes idea is just catering to them. It feels like we went from players having fun together to me me me. Stupid snowflakes!
My old vanilla/tbc guild had a no damage meter rule. One warning then kicked from the raid if you did it again. Get rid of the numbers and let players figure it out the old fashion way.
Bring back CC and Debuffing and the rest for Gygax sake.
I posted this video (2 HR) a while back. It brought back to me all the old feelings about when we played back then and how it is has changed.
Well, playing D&D long before mmorpg's even that game with strict rules had multi classing... allowing for a fighter/mage or rogue/priest class... however with all the drawbacks not many people where willing to take the disadvantages of multiclassing...
the only games with good multi classing where D&D online, the orriginal GW1.. FF multiclassing didnt yield the wished for results to me in both versions of the game
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
DAoC - Skald, Theurigist and Necromancer
EQ2 - Beastlord
Vanguard - Ranger and Bloodmage
SWG - Elder Jedi, Spy, and TKM or Swordsman/Doc
Vanguard- Ranger
I built an engineer character with a cloak suit and a cloaked ATV. I would fill my backpack with anti-tank mines and repeatedly drive to the nearest chokepoints, like bridges or natural valleys, and mine the shit out of them. I had two jobs, killing enemy armor and hunting snipers, and I relished both jobs equally. Snipers used to get so mad when a cloaky engineer with an autopistol uncloaked and ended their killing spree.
Honestly, that was the only fun I had in Planetside 2 really. Of course, they removed character builds, so I was stuck with the pre-built, shitty infiltration class, but hunting snipers during a big fight with a cloak and a giant OSK pistol... lol. Loved it.
I dont see many people referring to more recent games like GW2... Which for example in my book has some reall highlights... espescially the engineer...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Hands down. Nothing even comes close that I have experienced. I've tried WoW several times but I can't get beyond the game play and the GRAPHICS. Besides, I haven't seen the customization of CoH anywhere.
I would be surprised to see that in a new game.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
CoH was a different kind of game. Loved it. Loved watching my firekin pets bouncing around as they ran around. The variety of controllers was amazing. Oh well, we can't have these kinds of games.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I would love to see them expand the roles but I really don't believe they want to spend the resources on something they have work at to balance.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I will say classes are typically not as diverse which may be worse. However you also are not locked into a class that is as rigid as past ones, which is imo better. Personally I like being kind of fluid. Eq bards were awesome for that.
In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
Everyone should be able to deal damage. DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is. WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second. After this, combat became all about "the damage."
For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes. How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon? What mechanic id this?
GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.
To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences. Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same. Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others. But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.
When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.
Just my opinion, of course.
VG
it was wow that removed the CC class and made dps classes a requirement, instead of simplifying classroles even more i think the answer definately is in a change to the trinnity where everyone can dps but also has a main role like tank, healer, cc, buffer, debuffef
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Original EQ.... Enchanter. So much fun dropping a dagger by noobie log in Neriak then cast minor illusion. Then watch people try to pick me up. XD I miss crowd control classes. Ha we almost had to kill our tank once when the beholders charmed him and had him attack us. The good old days.
However, in the early days of MMOs, even though the class diversity was there, the combat lacked depth in a lot of early games. For example, something like SWG had amazing diversity, yet the combat was pretty shallow (the depth was in character customisation rather than actual combat).
I think the sweet spot was 2005-2010 ish.
The games that came out in this era still had a decent amount of class diversity but the combat had advanced enough to have a decent amount of depth. Post 2010 (or perhaps earlier), games started simplifying again so the diversity was lost and the recent action-combat trend has removed nearly all depth from combat.
Support classes were great. CC is fun imo. I also love classes that debuff.
Players complaining about CC really used to annoy me. Can't take the heat don't play. Same with people who don't like class based systems. Don't like it don't play it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Very well said! It seems like a generational difference. Very old pnp dnder here and I love classes. We did accept it but then a new group of people came into gaming that wanted it all now. This being able to switch classes idea is just catering to them. It feels like we went from players having fun together to me me me. Stupid snowflakes!
My old vanilla/tbc guild had a no damage meter rule. One warning then kicked from the raid if you did it again.
Get rid of the numbers and let players figure it out the old fashion way.
Bring back CC and Debuffing and the rest for Gygax sake.
I posted this video (2 HR) a while back. It brought back to me all the old feelings about when we played back then and how it is has changed.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
One of old EQ friends just loves his Enchanter. He hates newer mmoRPGs because things like lack of CC and how dumbed down it has become. To quote him: "games are so dumbed down that people think actually think they have evolved".
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
the only games with good multi classing where D&D online, the orriginal GW1.. FF multiclassing didnt yield the wished for results to me in both versions of the game
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)