Microsoft releases minimum specs for Windows 10 VR Headsets

maskedweasel · November 2016

http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/21/13697268/microsoft-windows-10-vr-headsets-minimum-specs

"The software giant revealed that VR headsets for Windows 10 will start at $299, and now it’s starting to detail the PC specs required to power those VR experiences.

In the latest test builds of Windows 10, Microsoft is now including a "Windows Holographic First Run" application that tests a machine to ensure it’s compatible. I’ve tested a variety of machines, and it appears that Microsoft’s minimum requirements are pretty basic:

4GB of RAM
USB 3.0 port
A graphics card with DirectX 12 support
4 CPU cores, including dual-core processors with hyperthreading"

Waaaay different than the others here. Also keep in mind this has motion tracking and scaling built into the set.

Mikeha · November 2016

Microsoft has done it again.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

1 USB port which means it doesnt have external sensors which means it likely will not have controllers like Touch or HTC Vive and it also means its motion detection will be limited. (I think anyway i would have to check at home)

HAVING SAID THAT, I think the market has made it clear that it doesnt want high end VR just now because of the cost so it might be the right move for them. I think we will have to wait and see

maskedweasel · November 2016

SEANMCAD said:

1 USB port which means it doesnt have external sensors which means it likely will not have controllers like Touch or HTC Vive and it also means its motion detection will be limited.

HAVING SAID THAT, I think the market has made it clear that it doesnt want high end VR just now because of the cost so it might be the right move for them. I think we will have to wait and see

How do you know it won't have motion controls and how do you know motion detection is limited?

All of that can easily be built into the set, including using bluetooth for motion controls... paired through the hardware.

And motion detection isn't going to be limited, they're using Hololens technology here, hololens detects where you are in the room at all times. It's how it determines positioning of the holograms.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

1 USB port which means it doesnt have external sensors which means it likely will not have controllers like Touch or HTC Vive and it also means its motion detection will be limited.

HAVING SAID THAT, I think the market has made it clear that it doesnt want high end VR just now because of the cost so it might be the right move for them. I think we will have to wait and see

How do you know it won't have motion controls and how do you know motion detection is limited?

All of that can easily be built into the set, including using bluetooth for motion controls... paired through the hardware.

And motion detection isn't going to be limited, they're using Hololens technology here, hololens detects where you are in the room at all times. It's how it determines positioning of the holograms.

because of the USB ports. I have two. one for the headset, the other for the external motion sensors.
I dont know how it would work with just 1. Not saying I know its not, its just looks less likely

[Deleted User] · November 2016

The user and all related content has been deleted.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

blueturtle13 said:

Microsoft said that the headsets will start at $299 and will include inside-out tracking sensors, obviating the need for external cameras or laser systems like those on the current Oculus Rift or HTC Vive. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and Acer are all listed as partners.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price

interesting. I wonder how they are doing it with just one USB port.

thanks for the info

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Torval said:

SEANMCAD said:

blueturtle13 said:

Microsoft said that the headsets will start at $299 and will include inside-out tracking sensors, obviating the need for external cameras or laser systems like those on the current Oculus Rift or HTC Vive. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and Acer are all listed as partners.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price

interesting. I wonder how they are doing it with just one USB port.
thanks for the info

Because Microsoft has one of the best tech R&D facilities in the world.

yeah thats not good enough given their presence in the market place for consumer products.

I suspect its simply not as good as say an HTC. I am not saying that is a bad thing I am just saying its likely more like a Sony

maskedweasel · November 2016

Heres some speculation too, this may even work with older model XB1's or at least the XB 1 S

The specs for the regular XB1's are as follows:

RAM

8GB DDR3

CPU 8 Core AMD custom CPU
Frequency: 1.75 GHz [5]

GPU	Clock Speed: 853 MHz(originally 800 MHz)Shader Cores: 768 Peak Throughput: 1.31 TFLOPS

USB	USB 3.0 x3

The only thing I can think of that the original XB1's don't do as far as my knowledge is allow for Direct X 12 support... but I know the XB1 S does.

[Deleted User] · November 2016

The user and all related content has been deleted.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

blueturtle13 said:

SEANMCAD said:

Torval said:

SEANMCAD said:

blueturtle13 said:

Microsoft said that the headsets will start at $299 and will include inside-out tracking sensors, obviating the need for external cameras or laser systems like those on the current Oculus Rift or HTC Vive. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and Acer are all listed as partners.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price

interesting. I wonder how they are doing it with just one USB port.
thanks for the info

Because Microsoft has one of the best tech R&D facilities in the world.

yeah thats not good enough given their presence in the market place for consumer products.

I suspect its simply not as good as say an HTC. I am not saying that is a bad thing I am just saying its likely more like a Sony

The have a top tiered console that has beat out everything the last 4 months straight with a much more powerful one coming soon. Sold over 84 million 360's and currently have a comfortable market share with the Surface and Surface Pro. Now are offering up an affordable and practical VR solution for the masses. I would say they are doing fine in the consumer products market. The future looks bright indeed.

I would say they are not given their actual market penetration into mobile as well as their past record with devices such as the Zune. It does not mean they cant change but the past and current is not strong enough to support that they are solid because they have great RD. I am sorry. if that was the case it would beg the question...why Samsung

[Deleted User] · November 2016

The user and all related content has been deleted.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

blueturtle13 said:

SEANMCAD said:

blueturtle13 said:

SEANMCAD said:

Torval said:

SEANMCAD said:

blueturtle13 said:

Microsoft said that the headsets will start at $299 and will include inside-out tracking sensors, obviating the need for external cameras or laser systems like those on the current Oculus Rift or HTC Vive. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and Acer are all listed as partners.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price

interesting. I wonder how they are doing it with just one USB port.
thanks for the info

Because Microsoft has one of the best tech R&D facilities in the world.

yeah thats not good enough given their presence in the market place for consumer products.

I suspect its simply not as good as say an HTC. I am not saying that is a bad thing I am just saying its likely more like a Sony

The have a top tiered console that has beat out everything the last 4 months straight with a much more powerful one coming soon. Sold over 84 million 360's and currently have a comfortable market share with the Surface and Surface Pro. Now are offering up an affordable and practical VR solution for the masses. I would say they are doing fine in the consumer products market. The future looks bright indeed.

I would say they are not given their actual market penetration into mobile as well as their past record with devices such as the Zune. It does not mean they cant change but the past and current is not strong enough to support that they are solid because they have great RD. I am sorry. if that was the case it would beg the question...why Samsung

Zune? from 2006? Discontinued in 2012? Old news and a different CEO and leadership board that has been in place for quite sometime now.
If that is the case then Apple must be terrible because their watch did catch on. Or Google with Google glass.
Microsoft of today is not the Microsoft of 2006

ok let me get this straight.

reference to Samsung....ignored.
reference to Zune.....highlight.

really? the 'microsoft of today' has failed to get into the mobile phone market to any degree worth measuring

maskedweasel · November 2016

SEANMCAD said:

blueturtle13 said:

SEANMCAD said:

Torval said:

SEANMCAD said:

blueturtle13 said:

Microsoft said that the headsets will start at $299 and will include inside-out tracking sensors, obviating the need for external cameras or laser systems like those on the current Oculus Rift or HTC Vive. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and Acer are all listed as partners.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price

interesting. I wonder how they are doing it with just one USB port.
thanks for the info

Because Microsoft has one of the best tech R&D facilities in the world.

yeah thats not good enough given their presence in the market place for consumer products.

I suspect its simply not as good as say an HTC. I am not saying that is a bad thing I am just saying its likely more like a Sony

The have a top tiered console that has beat out everything the last 4 months straight with a much more powerful one coming soon. Sold over 84 million 360's and currently have a comfortable market share with the Surface and Surface Pro. Now are offering up an affordable and practical VR solution for the masses. I would say they are doing fine in the consumer products market. The future looks bright indeed.

I would say they are not given their actual market penetration into mobile as well as their past record with devices such as the Zune. It does not mean they cant change but the past and current is not strong enough to support that they are solid because they have great RD. I am sorry. if that was the case it would beg the question...why Samsung

You're talking about the Zune.. a product thats about a decade old at this point.

HTC in comparison is selling much better than the rift, but HTC hasn't been profitable in many quarters.. it's a sinking ship, yet they've penetrated the market better than the Rift.

You can easily look at the successes here for microsoft. Why is samsungs Tablet business struggling while Microsofts Surface business expanding?

Samsung is the biggest mobile seller on the planet, but Microsoft just has a better, more coveted product.

I feel thats the same outlook with VR sets. An all inclusive headset that works on Windows 10, with no lengthy setup, and hardware specs a lot more people currently have is where Microsoft saw a successful headset, and I believe it will outshadow everything else on the VR PC market by next summer.

[Deleted User] · November 2016

The user and all related content has been deleted.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Deekins said:

blueturtle13 said:

SEANMCAD said:

Torval said:

SEANMCAD said:

blueturtle13 said:

Microsoft said that the headsets will start at $299 and will include inside-out tracking sensors, obviating the need for external cameras or laser systems like those on the current Oculus Rift or HTC Vive. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and Acer are all listed as partners.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price

interesting. I wonder how they are doing it with just one USB port.
thanks for the info

Because Microsoft has one of the best tech R&D facilities in the world.

yeah thats not good enough given their presence in the market place for consumer products.

I suspect its simply not as good as say an HTC. I am not saying that is a bad thing I am just saying its likely more like a Sony

The have a top tiered console that has beat out everything the last 4 months straight with a much more powerful one coming soon. Sold over 84 million 360's and currently have a comfortable market share with the Surface and Surface Pro. Now are offering up an affordable and practical VR solution for the masses. I would say they are doing fine in the consumer products market. The future looks bright indeed.

I agree Microsoft does pretty good with what they do.

I have a Microsoft Lumia 950XL, it may not be a the popular choice. But I enjoy it more so than my old Samsung. It syncs everything up with my PC account. Once they get their messaging from PC to phone redone (they had it setup nicely, but someone decided to tie it into Skype, not sure I agree with it, but they must have some reason for it) that will be pretty sweet. I may not have all the nifty apps everyone else does, but I do love my 950XL.

I'm not a big fan of Xbox, but I will admit they have a pretty nice console. More of a Nintendo fan, since I love Zelda.

Personally I can only see this VR being good for them and the consumers. It is affordable and Microsoft is pretty good with what they do make.

i think many here have direct ties or indirect ties to Microsoft. that is what I think.

[Deleted User] · November 2016

The user and all related content has been deleted.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Deekins said:

SEANMCAD said:

Deekins said:

blueturtle13 said:

SEANMCAD said:

Torval said:

SEANMCAD said:

blueturtle13 said:

Microsoft said that the headsets will start at $299 and will include inside-out tracking sensors, obviating the need for external cameras or laser systems like those on the current Oculus Rift or HTC Vive. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and Acer are all listed as partners.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price

interesting. I wonder how they are doing it with just one USB port.
thanks for the info

Because Microsoft has one of the best tech R&D facilities in the world.

yeah thats not good enough given their presence in the market place for consumer products.

I suspect its simply not as good as say an HTC. I am not saying that is a bad thing I am just saying its likely more like a Sony

The have a top tiered console that has beat out everything the last 4 months straight with a much more powerful one coming soon. Sold over 84 million 360's and currently have a comfortable market share with the Surface and Surface Pro. Now are offering up an affordable and practical VR solution for the masses. I would say they are doing fine in the consumer products market. The future looks bright indeed.

I agree Microsoft does pretty good with what they do.

I have a Microsoft Lumia 950XL, it may not be a the popular choice. But I enjoy it more so than my old Samsung. It syncs everything up with my PC account. Once they get their messaging from PC to phone redone (they had it setup nicely, but someone decided to tie it into Skype, not sure I agree with it, but they must have some reason for it) that will be pretty sweet. I may not have all the nifty apps everyone else does, but I do love my 950XL.

I'm not a big fan of Xbox, but I will admit they have a pretty nice console. More of a Nintendo fan, since I love Zelda.

Personally I can only see this VR being good for them and the consumers. It is affordable and Microsoft is pretty good with what they do make.

i think many here have direct ties or indirect ties to Microsoft. that is what I think.

Yes I am some guru with Microsoft. I mean I must be working for them from my stay at home dad job.

Seriously do you even think sometimes before you type something out? Or do you just spout things off and hope something sticks somewhere?

something like that. Reason is, this forum is very obviously disproportionately pro-Microsoft in such a degree that does not represent the average consumer metrics.

in other words, I think its possible that every single Luma phone owner has an account here because to be frank there arent that many out in the world

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Deekins said:

SEANMCAD said:

Deekins said:

SEANMCAD said:

Deekins said:

blueturtle13 said:

SEANMCAD said:

Torval said:

SEANMCAD said:

blueturtle13 said:

Microsoft said that the headsets will start at $299 and will include inside-out tracking sensors, obviating the need for external cameras or laser systems like those on the current Oculus Rift or HTC Vive. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and Acer are all listed as partners.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price

interesting. I wonder how they are doing it with just one USB port.
thanks for the info

Because Microsoft has one of the best tech R&D facilities in the world.

yeah thats not good enough given their presence in the market place for consumer products.

I suspect its simply not as good as say an HTC. I am not saying that is a bad thing I am just saying its likely more like a Sony

The have a top tiered console that has beat out everything the last 4 months straight with a much more powerful one coming soon. Sold over 84 million 360's and currently have a comfortable market share with the Surface and Surface Pro. Now are offering up an affordable and practical VR solution for the masses. I would say they are doing fine in the consumer products market. The future looks bright indeed.

I agree Microsoft does pretty good with what they do.

I have a Microsoft Lumia 950XL, it may not be a the popular choice. But I enjoy it more so than my old Samsung. It syncs everything up with my PC account. Once they get their messaging from PC to phone redone (they had it setup nicely, but someone decided to tie it into Skype, not sure I agree with it, but they must have some reason for it) that will be pretty sweet. I may not have all the nifty apps everyone else does, but I do love my 950XL.

I'm not a big fan of Xbox, but I will admit they have a pretty nice console. More of a Nintendo fan, since I love Zelda.

Personally I can only see this VR being good for them and the consumers. It is affordable and Microsoft is pretty good with what they do make.

i think many here have direct ties or indirect ties to Microsoft. that is what I think.

Yes I am some guru with Microsoft. I mean I must be working for them from my stay at home dad job.

Seriously do you even think sometimes before you type something out? Or do you just spout things off and hope something sticks somewhere?

something like that. Reason is, this forum is very obviously disproportionately pro-Microsoft in such a degree that does not represent the average consumer metrics.

in other words, I think its possible that every single Luma phone owner has an account here because to be frank there arent that many out in the world

And I think you are just mad that Microsoft is about to outsell Rift by a lot. It's ok to admit defeat and move on.

ok well here is what I think shows bias

'Oculus? yeah VR sucks its going to fail miserably'
'MS? well I am not really into VR but props to them'

'How can they do it?'
'because they have one of the best R&D in the world as evidence by Luma'

'I think we should wait to see if its as good as an HTC or a google cardboard'
'well obviously its going to be as good as an HTC that is obvious'

seriously?

maskedweasel · November 2016

SEANMCAD said:

Deekins said:

SEANMCAD said:

Deekins said:

SEANMCAD said:

Deekins said:

blueturtle13 said:

SEANMCAD said:

Torval said:

SEANMCAD said:

blueturtle13 said:

Microsoft said that the headsets will start at $299 and will include inside-out tracking sensors, obviating the need for external cameras or laser systems like those on the current Oculus Rift or HTC Vive. HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus, and Acer are all listed as partners.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/26/13418156/microsoft-windows-10-holographic-virtual-reality-headset-announced-price

interesting. I wonder how they are doing it with just one USB port.
thanks for the info

Because Microsoft has one of the best tech R&D facilities in the world.

yeah thats not good enough given their presence in the market place for consumer products.

I suspect its simply not as good as say an HTC. I am not saying that is a bad thing I am just saying its likely more like a Sony

The have a top tiered console that has beat out everything the last 4 months straight with a much more powerful one coming soon. Sold over 84 million 360's and currently have a comfortable market share with the Surface and Surface Pro. Now are offering up an affordable and practical VR solution for the masses. I would say they are doing fine in the consumer products market. The future looks bright indeed.

I agree Microsoft does pretty good with what they do.

I have a Microsoft Lumia 950XL, it may not be a the popular choice. But I enjoy it more so than my old Samsung. It syncs everything up with my PC account. Once they get their messaging from PC to phone redone (they had it setup nicely, but someone decided to tie it into Skype, not sure I agree with it, but they must have some reason for it) that will be pretty sweet. I may not have all the nifty apps everyone else does, but I do love my 950XL.

I'm not a big fan of Xbox, but I will admit they have a pretty nice console. More of a Nintendo fan, since I love Zelda.

Personally I can only see this VR being good for them and the consumers. It is affordable and Microsoft is pretty good with what they do make.

i think many here have direct ties or indirect ties to Microsoft. that is what I think.

Yes I am some guru with Microsoft. I mean I must be working for them from my stay at home dad job.

Seriously do you even think sometimes before you type something out? Or do you just spout things off and hope something sticks somewhere?

something like that. Reason is, this forum is very obviously disproportionately pro-Microsoft in such a degree that does not represent the average consumer metrics.

in other words, I think its possible that every single Luma phone owner has an account here because to be frank there arent that many out in the world

And I think you are just mad that Microsoft is about to outsell Rift by a lot. It's ok to admit defeat and move on.

ok well here is what I think shows bias

'Oculus? yeah VR sucks its going to fail miserably'
'MS? well I am not really into VR but props to them'

'How can they do it?'
'because they have one of the best R&D in the world as evidence by Luma'

'I think we should wait to see if its as good as an HTC or a google cardboard'
'well obviously its going to be as good as an HTC that is obvious'

seriously?

this is some of the worst paraphrasing I've ever seen. The problem is, if you actually want real answers, ask real questions, and then when you get the real answers, don't discount them because you don't like them.

maskedweasel · November 2016

Deekins said:

I've stated several times I have nothing against VR. I'm not into it. I just think you have a bias to try to see everything in Rift be the number 1 seller. Seriously, I've written out that I don't care if VR goes big or not. But at least Microsoft is making it a reasonably priced VR system.

You white knight VR to no end. Especially Rift. Yet when Microsoft is releasing something that is by all intents and purposes going to put Rift 6 feet under, you go all rage mode that everyone is conspiring against you and are all part of some Microsoft club out to get you and Rift.

You should be glad that Microsoft is about to do this, that means more will be able to afford and actually partake in VR. Instead you are butthurt they are about to put the hurt on Rift in a major way.

In more ways than one it would seem. Originally XB1 was set to partner with Oculus and their Rift for the Scorpio system.

Now with Microsofts set, Oculus just lost millions in potential sales from XB1 owners. Its rough. Microsoft took away that chance for a partnership, but went one further and made a set, cheaper and more widely available than the Rift for the PC. It's a tough pill to swallow.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Deekins said:

Just to prove it to you. My last post in another thread about VR.

"To be honest, I couldn't care less about VR either way. As I have bad eyesight and I don't need some headset strapped 2-3 inches with a chance to make it all the worse. Perhaps when all is said and done and they can say with 100% truth that it won't hurt my eyes or make them worse than they are getting on their own, then I'll try it. Being told I was going to go blind one day at the age of 16 and I'm now 36 (and my eyes have already gotten a lot worse in the past 20 years. Come to think of it it was at 16 I was told that, so edit), I don't care to speed that along any faster.

Only thing I care about is the white knights of it using best guessing and estimates as fact and saying this proves all of you wrong. When in fact it has proven nothing except that some companies love to guess at stuff (and still have to lower their estimates) and that some companies are trying to guess 10 years out as to how much VR will make..when they can't even keep their financial guesses for a year.

It might be best to wait till the actual companies release sales numbers and financial gains/losses to start predicting things. Just my opinion of course."

we should count the posts and put the count in a spreadsheet.

how many negitive counts for VR when Oculus is refered to vs how many negitive counts for VR when Sony or Microsoft is refered to.

I think we all know what the results would be

[Deleted User] · November 2016

The user and all related content has been deleted.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

blueturtle13 said:

SEANMCAD said:

Deekins said:

Just to prove it to you. My last post in another thread about VR.

"To be honest, I couldn't care less about VR either way. As I have bad eyesight and I don't need some headset strapped 2-3 inches with a chance to make it all the worse. Perhaps when all is said and done and they can say with 100% truth that it won't hurt my eyes or make them worse than they are getting on their own, then I'll try it. Being told I was going to go blind one day at the age of 16 and I'm now 36 (and my eyes have already gotten a lot worse in the past 20 years. Come to think of it it was at 16 I was told that, so edit), I don't care to speed that along any faster.

Only thing I care about is the white knights of it using best guessing and estimates as fact and saying this proves all of you wrong. When in fact it has proven nothing except that some companies love to guess at stuff (and still have to lower their estimates) and that some companies are trying to guess 10 years out as to how much VR will make..when they can't even keep their financial guesses for a year.

It might be best to wait till the actual companies release sales numbers and financial gains/losses to start predicting things. Just my opinion of course."

we should count the posts and put the count in a spreadsheet.

how many negitive counts for VR when Oculus is refered to vs how many negitive counts for VR when Sony or Microsoft is refered to.

I think we all know what the results would be

I think many people either pro VR, against VR or Neutral to VR always thought the pricing was a sticking point.
Sony and now Microsoft are providing options that are in the realm of mass consumer consumption.
If that is the case and people start to show even more of an interest other tech heads and early adopters we may just see the types of software developed that is very much needed to make it a successful technology.

that is a good statement and a good point. I dont think its accurate only because the complaints started long before the price was known however your point might be what gives it momentum.

my hunch however is that the bias has more to do with PC vs Console wars (correction: branding vs non-branding the whole product identification thing). but that is just a hunch

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Deekins said:

Pretty much this. Most don't want to drop 1500-2000 for a gaming PC and then another 600-800 for a VR headset to be able to play VR games. It is just to much money.

Sony came out with their VR console that is pretty affordable. And for those that have gaming PC's already, this is affordable for them to get into VR.

It is a whole lot more affordable for the normal consumer. They don't need to spend tons to get it and enjoy it.

yeah but the problem with this is that people where raging against Oculus and VR as a whole before the prices where even known. People started to praise Sonys entry into the market before the prices of sony where known as well.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Torval said:

SEANMCAD said:

Deekins said:

SEANMCAD said:
something like that. Reason is, this forum is very obviously disproportionately pro-Microsoft in such a degree that does not represent the average consumer metrics.

in other words, I think its possible that every single Luma phone owner has an account here because to be frank there arent that many out in the world

And I think you are just mad that Microsoft is about to outsell Rift by a lot. It's ok to admit defeat and move on.

ok well here is what I think shows bias

'Oculus? yeah VR sucks its going to fail miserably'
'MS? well I am not really into VR but props to them'

'How can they do it?'
'because they have one of the best R&D in the world as evidence by Luma'

'I think we should wait to see if its as good as an HTC or a google cardboard'
'well obviously its going to be as good as an HTC that is obvious'

seriously?

You embarrass yourself: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/

And it's Lumia.

doesnt even remotely touch on what I said. in fact i dont even understand how its related to anything I said. Luma or Lumia.

Care to explain to me the connection between what I said and what you linked? I dont get it. Lumia is barely even relevant in the industry how the fuck do you ignore that?

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거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다