This article reads like a Trump press statement, so full of self-serving hyperbole and so little substance. Look, we know how BM treated his Vanguard staff, laying them off and leaving them to stand in the parking lot without the decency to even face them. It was said by many at the time that this guy would never get money for a game project ever again.
Oh, and then crowd funding came along. Oh well, the publishers learned their lesson. Hopefully funding users won't have to pay the same ugly price.
Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
This article reads like a Trump press statement, so full of self-serving hyperbole and so little substance. Look, we know how BM treated his Vanguard staff, laying them off and leaving them to stand in the parking lot without the decency to even face them. It was said by many at the time that this guy would never get money for a game project ever again.
Oh, and then crowd funding came along. Oh well, the publishers learned their lesson. Hopefully funding users won't have to pay the same ugly price.
In all fairness, publishers aren't backing much of anything and this was a problem even before Vanguard was launched. That was part of the reason the whole debacle occurred.
People can argue until they're blue in the face about how McQuaid mismanaged Vanguard, but the truth is big money wasn't funding games that weren't modeled after WoW then, just like they are funding much of anything now.
I remain dubious a small team can deliver a full featured, stable MMORPG while maintaining high production standards.
I wish them well and who knows, maybe they'll be the first to beat the odds.
I don't recall the name of the term but maybe it's always about "two of the three"
You can have full featured and stable but not high production You can have High Production and Stable but not full featured You can have High Production Full and Featured but not Stable
That's depressing. It suggests that our ability to make games is at wright brothers level still. I hope that somebody changes the process to work better, kind of like how they advanced digital animation production in movies.
Well, we're talking about a small team here not a large development company.
edit: I think the original idea was with "fast/good/cheap"
@Sovrath; I've always heard this in terms of standard IT projects, and you could only know 2 of these 3 options -- function (what it will do), time (how long it will take) and cost (how much it will cost). Sadly, I've found that to be entirely true, with most businesses focusing on Time and Cost. Function is the lost child. MMORPG development teams seem to promise Function and Time, but inevitably the Function is always compromised in favor of Cost. It's the way of businesses and money. It's a three-way tug of war between Marketing (Time), Accounting (Cost) and Customers (Function).
I don't necessarily think that's true, probably what it is that you're seeing is 1) a lack of understanding OF the customers needs and wants; or 2) a lack of visibility to the entire decision making process. We use standard SBT (Scope, Budget, Time) measures which are very similar to what you're describing. It's VERY easy to have these seem unbalanced if you don't understand any one of these areas. A problem we've encountered before, and is quite common, is that whoever is defining the scope aspect isn't integrated into the team, so there is this disconnect and we don't know the "Why?" of what we're doing. Regardless, that doesn't mean that Budget and Time are constantly driving it, either. These items are all bound together at the hip. The main difference is that Budget and Time are, likely, set in stone. For that matter, there will likely be an MVP (minimum viable product) that has been defined as well. The MVP will/should ALWAYS be the driving factor of the project. Otherwise, it's up to the project manager to re-define the MVP to fit within whatever other constraints might be higher-priority.
From a consumer perspective, we are only, really, privy to what features AREN'T in the product, which will ultimately create friction because it's likely that they've also stretched that time value. So now the consumer is getting less features in more time. That being said, consumers were also, likely, sold on the vision opposed to what would be accepted as an MVP. Problem is that, aside from maybe forums or focus groups, how can a developer properly define an MVP without a consensus from the consumer? Ultimately they can't, so we get and MVP which is heavily biased based on the opinions of a few. This is where things like crowdfunding could be leveraged to get better information from people. I haven't seen it used that way yet, though.
I hope this game is everything that its fans want. I fear it may end up suffering from EQ2 style combat though, and that would make it something I won't enjoy for long. I was amazed when I saw video of the game on youtube because it literally looks like someone rebuilt EQ1. For so many people this game will be a triumph.
I do see alot of EQ1 in this and im not srue it is going to work in 2016.....Many of us did love EQ1 in 99/00 but the genre has really evolved from that style of game......It will have a niche crowd no doubt, but how many will be willing to pay for this?
There was an interview with Brad, I dont recall if it was a live stream or not, but, he was asked about what happened with Vanguard. It's disaster was a culmination of three things, stress, smedley, and lots of booze/drugs.
I give Brad credit for being honest about what happened there.....Most people would not admit to the drugs and alcohol issues....Im hoping he learned some humbling lessons from it and has moved on and this will be better.
I give Brad credit for being honest about what happened there.....Most people would not admit to the drugs and alcohol issues....Im hoping he learned some humbling lessons from it and has moved on and this will be better.
Agreed. Everyone makes mistakes. It is how they proceed from them that separates the men from the boys.
Unlike other game devs I've known, Brad admitted that he fucked up. I respect that. So let's give the dude a chance, I think his honesty has earned him one.
I give Brad credit for being honest about what happened there.....Most people would not admit to the drugs and alcohol issues....Im hoping he learned some humbling lessons from it and has moved on and this will be better.
Agreed. Everyone makes mistakes. It is how they proceed from them that separates the men from the boys.
Unlike other game devs I've known, Brad admitted that he fucked up. I respect that. So let's give the dude a chance, I think his honesty has earned him one.
I don't know all the details, but if addiction is part of the problem that he had then it makes sense if he did shitty stuff. Addiction is serious, not just some embarrassment or a character defect. Some studies have shown that the same signal of self-preservation is sent from withdrawing as is sent neurologically when an organism faces death. It's just super hard to quit in many cases. Also, addicts are capable of behavior they never would have engaged in clean and pre-addiction. I just hope he has kicked it and is in recovery that is working.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
As a player who misses the old school group centric vibe which I feel defined this genre apart from the other genres this game has me watching it closely.
I do not doubt Brads ability or those in his development teams ability to deliver a good game, I feel they are doing great with the resources they have. I am worried about the obvious issues: his team is small and his funds are even smaller when comparing it to other major titles, you know the 200+ million dollar budgets. So does he have the resources to launch a game that is complete, large enough, content rich, and polished with his man power and money? He has to get a AAA feel to his mmo with a budget of a AA mmo.
So far almost everything they announced for the game I agree with, except the progeny system. So this sounds like the Best mmo fit for me. Group Game Play, PvE Focused, CC/Support classes, interactions with the world, situational gear, not a instance based dungeon grind that you que up int he main city. And I could go on.
If they release this game with too many incomplete/not implemented features they risk the game dying, they try to cram too much into the game to polish for launch or release early like Vanguard the game is DOA, they wait too long they risk losing interest.
But from what I am seeing the mainstream genre is it move farther and father away from what I loved about mmos. I simply cannot stand MMOs of today like FFXIV, B&S, TERA, GW2, ESO and so on. Pantheon sounds like something I been waiting for, for a very long time now. Bring back what made the mmo genre something special. I think brad has a decent size audience for this game, but it is in his court he has to deliver the game he is promising.
I'm not so sure there is any risk of people losing interest in Pantheon due to development taking too long. The real risk to me is that they fail to keep the confidence level high. They need to manage expectations while also putting their vision and competence on display. That's the balancing act, but I don't foresee their target audience ever losing interest in a highly cooperative and highly immersive environment that Pantheon will offer, as long as backers and fans remain confident in their capability to deliver.
There was an interview with Brad, I dont recall if it was a live stream or not, but, he was asked about what happened with Vanguard. It's disaster was a culmination of three things, stress, smedley, and lots of booze/drugs.
When they have a product I can buy, I will be there. Waiting is so hard =-\
And plz , take the time to launch without the technical issues that Vanguard suffered , That is my only concern , but feel he learned that lesson
FYI, Brad wasn't going to release Vanguard in a very early state. It was SoE which pushed him to abruptly releasing Vanguard. Since then, Vanguard never recovered from its launch until it got shut down.
Nonsense! He ran out of money and went crying to SOE. Yes it was SOE's decision to release the game in the state it was in, but they were just trying to recover their investment, they were done throwing money at it. The project was a disaster in the making. Horrible project management was the problem with this game and that can be laid in Brad's lap. We can only hope that Brad has learned from his past mistakes, but stop making excuses for him.
When they have a product I can buy, I will be there. Waiting is so hard =-\
And plz , take the time to launch without the technical issues that Vanguard suffered , That is my only concern , but feel he learned that lesson
FYI, Brad wasn't going to release Vanguard in a very early state. It was SoE which pushed him to abruptly releasing Vanguard. Since then, Vanguard never recovered from its launch until it got shut down.
Nonsense! He ran out of money and went crying to SOE. Yes it was SOE's decision to release the game in the state it was in, but they were just trying to recover their investment, they were done throwing money at it. The project was a disaster in the making. Horrible project management was the problem with this game and that can be laid in Brad's lap. We can only hope that Brad has learned from his past mistakes, but stop making excuses for him.
You are actually boring, he owns you nothing. Don't like how Brad handled Vanguard or can't except that circumstances happen then stay away from this game.
Anyone would think Brad banged your bird or girlfriend, it's old news and just fogging a dead horse.
When they have a product I can buy, I will be there. Waiting is so hard =-\
And plz , take the time to launch without the technical issues that Vanguard suffered , That is my only concern , but feel he learned that lesson
FYI, Brad wasn't going to release Vanguard in a very early state. It was SoE which pushed him to abruptly releasing Vanguard. Since then, Vanguard never recovered from its launch until it got shut down.
Nonsense! He ran out of money and went crying to SOE. Yes it was SOE's decision to release the game in the state it was in, but they were just trying to recover their investment, they were done throwing money at it. The project was a disaster in the making. Horrible project management was the problem with this game and that can be laid in Brad's lap. We can only hope that Brad has learned from his past mistakes, but stop making excuses for him.
You are actually boring, he owns you nothing. Don't like how Brad handled Vanguard or can't except that circumstances happen then stay away from this game.
Anyone would think Brad banged your bird or girlfriend, it's old news and just fogging a dead horse.
Actually I had several friends that worked on Vanguard so I have first hand knowledge of the piece of work Brad was at that time. You really should not comment on things you have no knowledge of.
When they have a product I can buy, I will be there. Waiting is so hard =-\
And plz , take the time to launch without the technical issues that Vanguard suffered , That is my only concern , but feel he learned that lesson
FYI, Brad wasn't going to release Vanguard in a very early state. It was SoE which pushed him to abruptly releasing Vanguard. Since then, Vanguard never recovered from its launch until it got shut down.
Nonsense! He ran out of money and went crying to SOE. Yes it was SOE's decision to release the game in the state it was in, but they were just trying to recover their investment, they were done throwing money at it. The project was a disaster in the making. Horrible project management was the problem with this game and that can be laid in Brad's lap. We can only hope that Brad has learned from his past mistakes, but stop making excuses for him.
You are actually boring, he owns you nothing. Don't like how Brad handled Vanguard or can't except that circumstances happen then stay away from this game.
Anyone would think Brad banged your bird or girlfriend, it's old news and just fogging a dead horse.
Actually I had several friends that worked on Vanguard so I have first hand knowledge of the piece of work Brad was at that time. You really should not comment on things you have no knowledge of.
Yeah! and I had a grandad who worked on the moon landing.
Comments
Oh, and then crowd funding came along. Oh well, the publishers learned their lesson. Hopefully funding users won't have to pay the same ugly price.
Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
In all fairness, publishers aren't backing much of anything and this was a problem even before Vanguard was launched. That was part of the reason the whole debacle occurred.
People can argue until they're blue in the face about how McQuaid mismanaged Vanguard, but the truth is big money wasn't funding games that weren't modeled after WoW then, just like they are funding much of anything now.
I don't necessarily think that's true, probably what it is that you're seeing is 1) a lack of understanding OF the customers needs and wants; or 2) a lack of visibility to the entire decision making process. We use standard SBT (Scope, Budget, Time) measures which are very similar to what you're describing. It's VERY easy to have these seem unbalanced if you don't understand any one of these areas. A problem we've encountered before, and is quite common, is that whoever is defining the scope aspect isn't integrated into the team, so there is this disconnect and we don't know the "Why?" of what we're doing. Regardless, that doesn't mean that Budget and Time are constantly driving it, either. These items are all bound together at the hip. The main difference is that Budget and Time are, likely, set in stone. For that matter, there will likely be an MVP (minimum viable product) that has been defined as well. The MVP will/should ALWAYS be the driving factor of the project. Otherwise, it's up to the project manager to re-define the MVP to fit within whatever other constraints might be higher-priority.
From a consumer perspective, we are only, really, privy to what features AREN'T in the product, which will ultimately create friction because it's likely that they've also stretched that time value. So now the consumer is getting less features in more time. That being said, consumers were also, likely, sold on the vision opposed to what would be accepted as an MVP. Problem is that, aside from maybe forums or focus groups, how can a developer properly define an MVP without a consensus from the consumer? Ultimately they can't, so we get and MVP which is heavily biased based on the opinions of a few. This is where things like crowdfunding could be leveraged to get better information from people. I haven't seen it used that way yet, though.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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The SK was my favorite class and no other MMO has gotten it "right" sense then. Even the ones in EQ2 lacked the flavor of the original.
Agreed. Everyone makes mistakes. It is how they proceed from them that separates the men from the boys.
Unlike other game devs I've known, Brad admitted that he fucked up. I respect that. So let's give the dude a chance, I think his honesty has earned him one.
Agreed. Everyone makes mistakes. It is how they proceed from them that separates the men from the boys.
Unlike other game devs I've known, Brad admitted that he fucked up. I respect that. So let's give the dude a chance, I think his honesty has earned him one.
I don't know all the details, but if addiction is part of the problem that he had then it makes sense if he did shitty stuff. Addiction is serious, not just some embarrassment or a character defect. Some studies have shown that the same signal of self-preservation is sent from withdrawing as is sent neurologically when an organism faces death. It's just super hard to quit in many cases. Also, addicts are capable of behavior they never would have engaged in clean and pre-addiction. I just hope he has kicked it and is in recovery that is working.
I do not doubt Brads ability or those in his development teams ability to deliver a good game, I feel they are doing great with the resources they have. I am worried about the obvious issues: his team is small and his funds are even smaller when comparing it to other major titles, you know the 200+ million dollar budgets. So does he have the resources to launch a game that is complete, large enough, content rich, and polished with his man power and money? He has to get a AAA feel to his mmo with a budget of a AA mmo.
So far almost everything they announced for the game I agree with, except the progeny system. So this sounds like the Best mmo fit for me. Group Game Play, PvE Focused, CC/Support classes, interactions with the world, situational gear, not a instance based dungeon grind that you que up int he main city. And I could go on.
If they release this game with too many incomplete/not implemented features they risk the game dying, they try to cram too much into the game to polish for launch or release early like Vanguard the game is DOA, they wait too long they risk losing interest.
But from what I am seeing the mainstream genre is it move farther and father away from what I loved about mmos. I simply cannot stand MMOs of today like FFXIV, B&S, TERA, GW2, ESO and so on. Pantheon sounds like something I been waiting for, for a very long time now. Bring back what made the mmo genre something special. I think brad has a decent size audience for this game, but it is in his court he has to deliver the game he is promising.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/02/13/the-inside-story-of-how-a-major-mmo-went-wrong?page=2
If anything Brad was very grateful to him and Sony and they were honest when they said they would fund them for 6 months.
You are actually boring, he owns you nothing. Don't like how Brad handled Vanguard or can't except that circumstances happen then stay away from this game.
Anyone would think Brad banged your bird or girlfriend, it's old news and just fogging a dead horse.
Yeah! and I had a grandad who worked on the moon landing.