I will really miss this qq when the game launches. It actually is almost as epic as the game itself.
I see documentaries in the future showcasing the qq.
It'll be a while before you get to miss that stuff. While trying to pull up an early quote on the subject (search here sucks), there was someone giving me 'what for' for claiming things weren't going to be out in 2014. Things that still aren't out.
And as mentioned above, there will definitely be documentaries.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I will really miss this qq when the game launches. It actually is almost as epic as the game itself.
I see documentaries in the future showcasing the qq.
qq won't stop at launch, that's when things really get started. Win, place, or show, this is gaming history and I for one am enjoying the story.
Given their track record in handling things competently, I expect the eventual release to be especially bug filled and troublesome. Safe bet there, of course.
There will still be people telling everyone to just wait, it'll be great next year.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
The only thing missing from this thread is Derek Smart stating definitely that the project is FUBAR and that the whole thing will come crumbling down within 90 days .... of course, he first said that a year ago, but nevermind the details ...
Why are the SC fans so obsessed over Derek Smart that they have to bring him into every (or every other) forum post ...
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
The only thing missing from this thread is Derek Smart stating definitely that the project is FUBAR and that the whole thing will come crumbling down within 90 days .... of course, he first said that a year ago, but nevermind the details ...
Why are the SC fans so obsessed over Derek Smart that they have to bring him into every (or every other) forum post ...
[mod edit]
well that's fine then, although this DS guy get's way to much attention.
SC is using a very shady marketing strategy, it's like exploiting drug addicts, this and the dodgy things they are claiming (which iincludes that they have confirmed every wish on the fans wishlist only to hype the hype and to rake more money) did a hell lot of damage to the crowdfunding society. From a developers point of view they are overcomplicating things without having a solid line, it's like watching a rookie dev designing his first game.
Post edited by Vaross on
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
The only thing missing from this thread is Derek Smart stating definitely that the project is FUBAR and that the whole thing will come crumbling down within 90 days .... of course, he first said that a year ago, but nevermind the details ...
Why are the SC fans so obsessed over Derek Smart that they have to bring him into every (or every other) forum post ...
[mod edit]
well that's fine then, although this DS guy get's way to much attention.
SC is using a very shady marketing strategy, it's like exploiting drug addicts, this and the dodgy things they are claiming (which iincludes that they have confirmed every wish on the fans wishlist only to hype the hype and to rake more money) did a hell lot of damage to the crowdfunding society. From a developers point of view they are overcomplicating things without having a solid line, it's like watching a rookie dev designing his first game.
Ok, so I will agree with you that DS gets too much credit, although he has been a massive asshole since before SC, so he earned that rep himself. So the fact that some people think SC is what made DS famous (or infamous) speaks a lot to their knowledge about him and what he's done and I feel sorry for people who are following him because they think he's some sort of crusader for the good of humanity. He has not and will not offer anything good to humanity when he leaves this Earth, at this rate.
Secondly, you're dealing in seriously vague, nebulous information. Honestly, I would have absolutely no problem engaging with people in an intelligent debate if their arguments were actually intelligent, well-constructed thoughts. Instead we get:
1) very shady marketing.... exploiting.... etc. There is absolutely zero evidence of this. We DO know that there are choices. However, saying that they are exploiting people like drug addicts would suggest that there is an ever-increasing average backer amount, which there isn't. It's like saying that Cadbury is exploiting customers by providing a lot of choices of chocolate bar. The fact that they provide variety does not, at all, show that they are exploiting customers.
2) They are damaging crowdfunding!!! There is no evidence that they have damaged crowdfunding at all. There has been bad press around crowdfunding since 2009, long before SC. It may provide ammunition, but nothing that isn't available anywhere else. For instance, I am a backer of Torment: Tides of Numenera and it is MUCH MUCH less complex than SC and is running just as late (years late, not months). I'm sure if I felt like the information I provided mattered I could find even more examples.
3) They have no idea what they're doing!! You have absolutely no idea about running a game project, and probably even a software project. If you did, then you wouldn't make such a blatantly holier-than-thou statement, like managing software projects is something that just a fucking breeze. If that was the case why the fuck do we still see issues in network layers in nearly EVERY MMO released, over a decade after MMOs were popularized? Go read some more recent articles, you'll actually see CR openly admit his mistakes and also admits that he does have high standards and doesn't get along with people who aren't willing to increase the level of their standards to meet that. So it's certainly not a matter of him being an idiot, he's well-aware that he is demanding and what he's requesting is maybe beyond what's currently being done, but he doesn't care. Maybe that's a knock against him, because he's challenging people, but he's not a bumbling idiot.
The only thing missing from this thread is Derek Smart stating definitely that the project is FUBAR and that the whole thing will come crumbling down within 90 days .... of course, he first said that a year ago, but nevermind the details ...
Why are the SC fans so obsessed over Derek Smart that they have to bring him into every (or every other) forum post ...
[mod edit]
well that's fine then, although this DS guy get's way to much attention.
SC is using a very shady marketing strategy, it's like exploiting drug addicts, this and the dodgy things they are claiming (which iincludes that they have confirmed every wish on the fans wishlist only to hype the hype and to rake more money) did a hell lot of damage to the crowdfunding society. From a developers point of view they are overcomplicating things without having a solid line, it's like watching a rookie dev designing his first game.
Ok, so I will agree with you that DS gets too much credit, although he has been a massive asshole since before SC, so he earned that rep himself. So the fact that some people think SC is what made DS famous (or infamous) speaks a lot to their knowledge about him and what he's done and I feel sorry for people who are following him because they think he's some sort of crusader for the good of humanity. He has not and will not offer anything good to humanity when he leaves this Earth, at this rate.
Secondly, you're dealing in seriously vague, nebulous information. Honestly, I would have absolutely no problem engaging with people in an intelligent debate if their arguments were actually intelligent, well-constructed thoughts. Instead we get:
1) very shady marketing.... exploiting.... etc. There is absolutely zero evidence of this. We DO know that there are choices. However, saying that they are exploiting people like drug addicts would suggest that there is an ever-increasing average backer amount, which there isn't. It's like saying that Cadbury is exploiting customers by providing a lot of choices of chocolate bar. The fact that they provide variety does not, at all, show that they are exploiting customers.
2) They are damaging crowdfunding!!! There is no evidence that they have damaged crowdfunding at all. There has been bad press around crowdfunding since 2009, long before SC. It may provide ammunition, but nothing that isn't available anywhere else. For instance, I am a backer of Torment: Tides of Numenera and it is MUCH MUCH less complex than SC and is running just as late (years late, not months). I'm sure if I felt like the information I provided mattered I could find even more examples.
3) They have no idea what they're doing!! You have absolutely no idea about running a game project, and probably even a software project. If you did, then you wouldn't make such a blatantly holier-than-thou statement, like managing software projects is something that just a fucking breeze. If that was the case why the fuck do we still see issues in network layers in nearly EVERY MMO released, over a decade after MMOs were popularized? Go read some more recent articles, you'll actually see CR openly admit his mistakes and also admits that he does have high standards and doesn't get along with people who aren't willing to increase the level of their standards to meet that. So it's certainly not a matter of him being an idiot, he's well-aware that he is demanding and what he's requesting is maybe beyond what's currently being done, but he doesn't care. Maybe that's a knock against him, because he's challenging people, but he's not a bumbling idiot.
Everything is fine I respect your opinion (though I didn't read it through) waitwaitwait ... point 3 just pops in my eyes (You have absolutely no idea about running a game project), this is actually not true Though your response seems to be a little bit aggressive.
Post edited by Vaross on
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
We all know what is going to be shown... Videos of things that are not in the game and wont be for a long time. Look at the video they showed last year to get people to spend more money, half of that stuff is STILL not in the game. A bunch of rah rah to get the masses to donate more and some carrots dangling of how great it will all be someday.
Wasn't what was shown at Citizencon 2015 in-game? Alpha 2.0 anyone? Side of that, only SQ42 is what is not yet released.
You can see the Citizencon 2015 Demo and see by yourself how it IS in-game, released 2 months after.
So what exactly is the half of that stuff on the video that is not in-game? Or are you mentioning by half, SQ42?
We all know what is going to be shown... Videos of things that are not in the game and wont be for a long time. Look at the video they showed last year to get people to spend more money, half of that stuff is STILL not in the game. A bunch of rah rah to get the masses to donate more and some carrots dangling of how great it will all be someday.
Wasn't what was shown at Citizencon 2015 in-game? Alpha 2.0 anyone? Side of that, only SQ42 is what is not yet released.
You can see the Citizencon 2015 Demo and see by yourself how it IS in-game, released 2 months after.
Funny, I did not realize that Citizencon only lasted for 23 minutes. I'm pretty sure there are other things talked about and presented back at CitizenCon 2015 that are still not in the game as I have said. I do give you credit for a nice attempt to hide it though.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Funny, I did not realize that Citizencon only lasted for 23 minutes. I'm pretty sure there are other things talked about and presented back at CitizenCon 2015 that are still not in the game as I have said. I do give you credit for a nice attempt to hide it though.
To my memory there's only 2 demos on Citcon 2015: - Alpha 2.0 = Currently Released - SQ42 first demo (Morrow Tour) = Currently Un-Released.
Unless when you're talking about half of that stuff is not released, to be about SQ42... I'm not hiding anything, you would be pretending I am.
Funny, I did not realize that Citizencon only lasted for 23 minutes. I'm pretty sure there are other things talked about and presented back at CitizenCon 2015 that are still not in the game as I have said. I do give you credit for a nice attempt to hide it though.
To my memory there's only 2 demos on Citcon 2015: - Alpha 2.0 = Currently Released - SQ42 first demo (Morrow Tour) = Currently Un-Released.
Unless when you're talking about half of that stuff is not released, to be about SQ42... I'm not hiding anything, you would be pretending I am.
Or maybe you are pretending that I am...
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Nope pretty sure I ain't. If you're looking for stuff shown but not released yet you wouldn't be looking at Citcon last year, yet at Gamescon where stuff like Star Marine was demoed. Things like Arccorp (social module back then) were released and the AC 2.0 (later SC 2.0) is mostly released exception of the shown I think retaliator delerict they did EVA into and activated the ship; ship delericts like that are not on the game still.
Ok, so I will agree with you that DS gets too much credit, although he has been a massive asshole since before SC, so he earned that rep himself. So the fact that some people think SC is what made DS famous (or infamous) speaks a lot to their knowledge about him and what he's done and I feel sorry for people who are following him because they think he's some sort of crusader for the good of humanity. He has not and will not offer anything good to humanity when he leaves this Earth, at this rate.
Secondly, you're dealing in seriously vague, nebulous information. Honestly, I would have absolutely no problem engaging with people in an intelligent debate if their arguments were actually intelligent, well-constructed thoughts. Instead we get:
1) very shady marketing.... exploiting.... etc. There is absolutely zero evidence of this. We DO know that there are choices. However, saying that they are exploiting people like drug addicts would suggest that there is an ever-increasing average backer amount, which there isn't. It's like saying that Cadbury is exploiting customers by providing a lot of choices of chocolate bar. The fact that they provide variety does not, at all, show that they are exploiting customers.
2) They are damaging crowdfunding!!! There is no evidence that they have damaged crowdfunding at all. There has been bad press around crowdfunding since 2009, long before SC. It may provide ammunition, but nothing that isn't available anywhere else. For instance, I am a backer of Torment: Tides of Numenera and it is MUCH MUCH less complex than SC and is running just as late (years late, not months). I'm sure if I felt like the information I provided mattered I could find even more examples.
3) They have no idea what they're doing!! You have absolutely no idea about running a game project, and probably even a software project. If you did, then you wouldn't make such a blatantly holier-than-thou statement, like managing software projects is something that just a fucking breeze. If that was the case why the fuck do we still see issues in network layers in nearly EVERY MMO released, over a decade after MMOs were popularized? Go read some more recent articles, you'll actually see CR openly admit his mistakes and also admits that he does have high standards and doesn't get along with people who aren't willing to increase the level of their standards to meet that. So it's certainly not a matter of him being an idiot, he's well-aware that he is demanding and what he's requesting is maybe beyond what's currently being done, but he doesn't care. Maybe that's a knock against him, because he's challenging people, but he's not a bumbling idiot.
Everything is fine I respect your opinion (though I didn't read it through) waitwaitwait ... point 3 just pops in my eyes (You have absolutely no idea about running a game project), this is actually not true Though your response seems to be a little bit aggressive.
Hey, the response is DEFINITELY aggressive and I'll still stick behind it saying that you've never run a game project, I'd put money on it. Any reasonable person who has any amount of experience in the software industry, nevermind games or even project management, understands the complexity of what's trying to be done. Additionally, those who have managed projects understand how managing multiple teams contributing to the same project increases the complexity. Furthermore, they should at least appreciate how managing multiple teams across different offices/time zones complicates things.
If you had, maybe, said something like CR got in way over his head with multiple offices then at least that provides some context to what you're saying. All you say is "From a developers point of view they are overcomplicating things without having a solid line, it's like watching a rookie dev designing his first game." which is, possibly, the biggest blanket statement ever. This is what I'm talking about. You can't disagree that they are over-complicating things, but you could also argue that every project ever run was over-complicated at some level. This is inherent in any project and it's why we have entire retrospective meetings discussing things we did well and things we could improve.
Honestly, your statement is like saying, "I don't get why humans are so amazing, they're just a bunch of cells."
Just finished reading the entire Kotaku series on Star Citizen's developmental trouble. Dang! Incompetance, bad decision making, poor project management through and through. Hmn, where have you heard that before?
Roberts' hubris and arrogance oozed out of every pronouncement. This guy worked on how many games? How many movies? And yet he made the same errors he was noted for throughout his entire history. And added some new ones!
The question from the beginning was whether Roberts had matured or not, but it was evident from early on that that wasn't the case. Thus we have the same sadsack development issues replayed once again, just wasting supporter money this time. And with no one to really rein in Roberts and his stupidity.
Well, it will be interesting to see how they handle the Citizen Con this weekend.
The worse part is the people who believe he's the greatest thing since hot apple pie.
Honestly, your statement is like saying, "I don't get why humans are so amazing, they're just a bunch of cells."
Basically it's the other way round. An example of overcomplicating things in development.
Create a Character > Assign the CharacterCamera to the Character Motor > inherit its position and rotation from the eyes > now design a system that is nulling out the movement from the eyes in conjunction to the base character mode to flat out head bobbing 2 Systems that fight against each other, fine in single player not a good idea in multiplayer because the position has to be forecast through the Character controller > Animation controller/Bones > Physics > Ragdoll to reach the position of the eyes. Processing: Character Motor > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll > Camera Expected Result: when a lag occurs your camera will pop out of the character and you will see your headless self. No testing for lag or errors can avoid that because you have to go through at least 4 systems that can influence the position of the eyes before processing the camera.
ok we will test something more stable: Create a character > inherit the camera to the Motor (with a height axis offset from the eyes). Processing: Character Motor > Camera > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll Result: no Headbobbing and just one system can influence the position. If this one lags the camera will lag with it. On top of that you can dampening and tween the eyes position to get a more natural behaviour (or add a headbob ) and check the delta if there is a lag (increase dampening with more lag so that the camera does not pop out) - You can not do this lag check with version 1 because it would be too late (the forecast is already done when reaching the camera system).
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
Honestly, your statement is like saying, "I don't get why humans are so amazing, they're just a bunch of cells."
Basically it's the other way round. An example of overcomplicating things in development.
Create a Character > Assign the CharacterCamera to the Character Motor > inherit its position and rotation from the eyes > now design a system that is nulling out the movement from the eyes in conjunction to the base character mode to flat out head bobbing 2 Systems that fight against each other, fine in single player not a good idea in multiplayer because the position has to be forecast through the Character controller > Animation controller/Bones > Physics > Ragdoll to reach the position of the eyes. Processing: Character Motor > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll > Camera Expected Result: when a lag occurs your camera will pop out of the character and you will see your headless self. No testing for lag or errors can avoid that because you have to go through at least 4 systems that can influence the position of the eyes before processing the camera.
ok we will test something more stable: Create a character > inherit the camera to the Motor (with a height axis offset from the eyes). Processing: Character Motor > Camera > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll Result: no Headbobbing and just one system can influence the position. If this one lags the camera will lag with it. On top of that you can dampening and tween the eyes position to get a more natural behaviour (or add a headbob ) and check the delta if there is a lag (increase dampening with more lag so that the camera does not pop out) - You can not do this lag check with version 1 because it would be too late (the forecast is already done when reaching the camera system).
Ok well that's more of an implementation over a requirement. I would ask,though,what do you see as an advantage of the first implementation over the second? If the second is so obvious there must, obviously, be some gains realized from the first, more complicated.
Honestly, your statement is like saying, "I don't get why humans are so amazing, they're just a bunch of cells."
Basically it's the other way round. An example of overcomplicating things in development.
Create a Character > Assign the CharacterCamera to the Character Motor > inherit its position and rotation from the eyes > now design a system that is nulling out the movement from the eyes in conjunction to the base character mode to flat out head bobbing 2 Systems that fight against each other, fine in single player not a good idea in multiplayer because the position has to be forecast through the Character controller > Animation controller/Bones > Physics > Ragdoll to reach the position of the eyes. Processing: Character Motor > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll > Camera Expected Result: when a lag occurs your camera will pop out of the character and you will see your headless self. No testing for lag or errors can avoid that because you have to go through at least 4 systems that can influence the position of the eyes before processing the camera.
ok we will test something more stable: Create a character > inherit the camera to the Motor (with a height axis offset from the eyes). Processing: Character Motor > Camera > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll Result: no Headbobbing and just one system can influence the position. If this one lags the camera will lag with it. On top of that you can dampening and tween the eyes position to get a more natural behaviour (or add a headbob ) and check the delta if there is a lag (increase dampening with more lag so that the camera does not pop out) - You can not do this lag check with version 1 because it would be too late (the forecast is already done when reaching the camera system).
Ok well that's more of an implementation over a requirement. I would ask,though,what do you see as an advantage of the first implementation over the second? If the second is so obvious there must, obviously, be some gains realized from the first, more complicated.
The first one is easier to implement when the camera is already set up to the eyes just write a module to negate the head movement and let it update. The second one needs a little restructuring of the player object and a bit more programming but is more stable and reliable in the long run.
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
Having read through the Kotaku articles I find them to be a pretty decent piece of 'objective' journalism, as far as objective goes of course. I like the inclusion of Derek Smart and the 24 year old feud exposing big flaws in both Smarts AND Roberts character. Around here most just point at Smart because that is the easy thing to do.
As for SC? I lost all sympathy when I read about ship debt. Selling virtual ships for a game that does not exist yet is dubious. Selling ships that have not even been designed yet for a game that does not exist yet borders on criminal imo.
Roberts has never delivered everything he has promised in any of his games, why SC might be different is a mystery to me. Why people act like he can pull it of and heavily defend it is an even bigger mystery, are people that starved for a decent space sim that they are humping the hype train like no tomorrow?
The future will tell but I think a lot of people are going to be very disappointed. And I ain't talking levels of SotA disappointment either...... Here is to hoping I am wrong.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Honestly, your statement is like saying, "I don't get why humans are so amazing, they're just a bunch of cells."
Basically it's the other way round. An example of overcomplicating things in development.
Create a Character > Assign the CharacterCamera to the Character Motor > inherit its position and rotation from the eyes > now design a system that is nulling out the movement from the eyes in conjunction to the base character mode to flat out head bobbing 2 Systems that fight against each other, fine in single player not a good idea in multiplayer because the position has to be forecast through the Character controller > Animation controller/Bones > Physics > Ragdoll to reach the position of the eyes. Processing: Character Motor > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll > Camera Expected Result: when a lag occurs your camera will pop out of the character and you will see your headless self. No testing for lag or errors can avoid that because you have to go through at least 4 systems that can influence the position of the eyes before processing the camera.
ok we will test something more stable: Create a character > inherit the camera to the Motor (with a height axis offset from the eyes). Processing: Character Motor > Camera > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll Result: no Headbobbing and just one system can influence the position. If this one lags the camera will lag with it. On top of that you can dampening and tween the eyes position to get a more natural behaviour (or add a headbob ) and check the delta if there is a lag (increase dampening with more lag so that the camera does not pop out) - You can not do this lag check with version 1 because it would be too late (the forecast is already done when reaching the camera system).
Ok well that's more of an implementation over a requirement. I would ask,though,what do you see as an advantage of the first implementation over the second? If the second is so obvious there must, obviously, be some gains realized from the first, more complicated.
The first one is easier to implement when the camera is already set up to the eyes just write a module to negate the head movement and let it update. The second one needs a little restructuring of the player object and a bit more programming but is more stable and reliable in the long run.
Sorry, just saw your reply.
Ok, first of all, I think they did add head bob dampening, or that's coming. I agree that the head bob was whack. That being said, based on my understanding if they were to implement something like option 2 there would be a disconnect between the first person space and the world space, or as others might interpret that player, especially if things like head bob are added afterwards. So they are, essentially, sacrificing performance for realism. Would that be a fair estimation?
Having read through the Kotaku articles I find them to be a pretty decent piece of 'objective' journalism, as far as objective goes of course. I like the inclusion of Derek Smart and the 24 year old feud exposing big flaws in both Smarts AND Roberts character. Around here most just point at Smart because that is the easy thing to do.
As for SC? I lost all sympathy when I read about ship debt. Selling virtual ships for a game that does not exist yet is dubious. Selling ships that have not even been designed yet for a game that does not exist yet borders on criminal imo.
Roberts has never delivered everything he has promised in any of his games, why SC might be different is a mystery to me. Why people act like he can pull it of and heavily defend it is an even bigger mystery, are people that starved for a decent space sim that they are humping the hype train like no tomorrow?
The future will tell but I think a lot of people are going to be very disappointed. And I ain't talking levels of SotA disappointment either...... Here is to hoping I am wrong.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Oh, I think that disappointment is a given. That's not an SC issue though, that's a GAMER issue. Actually, it's a human issue. There is plenty of interesting information surrounding hype and there is actually a hype curve that pretty accurately illustrates what people go through.
As for selling ships, I can't fathom where someone feels they could get $10k of value out of any game. Either way, it's their money, so have at it, I guess. Just because it's not something that you can justify in your mind doesn't mean it's criminal. There is plenty of snake oil for sale that I can't understand either, but it's somehow still allowed to be sold.
As far as delivery goes, I would have preferred to see a phased release, similar to what ED is doing, but whatever, I guess they're going to take some heat up-front to do what they want to do. As far as your disbelief, I think it's reasonable to say that not everything will be delivered. Do you feel like the core game is something that will be delivered, though? It seems like gamers are very sensitive around what's delivered for some games and less concerned about what's delivered for others, and that generally seems proportionate to how critical they are of the game. Could just be me, but that's just something I've observed.
Honestly, your statement is like saying, "I don't get why humans are so amazing, they're just a bunch of cells."
Basically it's the other way round. An example of overcomplicating things in development.
Create a Character > Assign the CharacterCamera to the Character Motor > inherit its position and rotation from the eyes > now design a system that is nulling out the movement from the eyes in conjunction to the base character mode to flat out head bobbing 2 Systems that fight against each other, fine in single player not a good idea in multiplayer because the position has to be forecast through the Character controller > Animation controller/Bones > Physics > Ragdoll to reach the position of the eyes. Processing: Character Motor > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll > Camera Expected Result: when a lag occurs your camera will pop out of the character and you will see your headless self. No testing for lag or errors can avoid that because you have to go through at least 4 systems that can influence the position of the eyes before processing the camera.
ok we will test something more stable: Create a character > inherit the camera to the Motor (with a height axis offset from the eyes). Processing: Character Motor > Camera > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll Result: no Headbobbing and just one system can influence the position. If this one lags the camera will lag with it. On top of that you can dampening and tween the eyes position to get a more natural behaviour (or add a headbob ) and check the delta if there is a lag (increase dampening with more lag so that the camera does not pop out) - You can not do this lag check with version 1 because it would be too late (the forecast is already done when reaching the camera system).
Ok well that's more of an implementation over a requirement. I would ask,though,what do you see as an advantage of the first implementation over the second? If the second is so obvious there must, obviously, be some gains realized from the first, more complicated.
The first one is easier to implement when the camera is already set up to the eyes just write a module to negate the head movement and let it update. The second one needs a little restructuring of the player object and a bit more programming but is more stable and reliable in the long run.
Sorry, just saw your reply.
Ok, first of all, I think they did add head bob dampening, or that's coming. I agree that the head bob was whack. That being said, based on my understanding if they were to implement something like option 2 there would be a disconnect between the first person space and the world space, or as others might interpret that player, especially if things like head bob are added afterwards. So they are, essentially, sacrificing performance for realism. Would that be a fair estimation?
You can safely pull the position and rotation from other assets like the position and rotation from the head at any state it would make no difference in the result. A disconnect from the 1st to 3rd to spectator is both solutions, because you are altering the 1st person view in both cases. I just wanted to point out that to have a stable camera should be top priority in this scene. To have 2 systems fighting each other costs ressources and is bug ridden.
1st Solution (as CIG implemented it) - From World point to Camera Player -> Character Controller -> Animation Controller -> Physics (Inverse Kinematics) -> Ragdoll (Kinematics) -> Head position/rotation >>> From here I know where the Eyes are. They inherit the Camera now in the middle of the Head and recalculate backwards to get the actual delta to sub it from the camera to null out head
2nd Solution - From World point to Camera Player -> Character Controller -> Animation Controller -> Physics (Inverse Kinematics) -> Ragdoll (Kinematics) -> Head position/rotation Player -> Character Controller -> Camera From here I can offset the camera to the Head rotation/position and it would be the exact same result as #1 though when the character controller lags the camera would lag with it without having to calculate all the other systems (which will multiply the lag expotentially due to having the animations and physics send over the network as well.) From here I can also check if the character is lagging by checking the whole systems and react before the camera already has been moved with the head - it will still move with the controller
In both cases I can add and reduce head bobbing by saying: (1) Take Camera offset to controller and dampen it by x% by calculating the delta to the controller (CIG has choosen to dampen 100%). (2) Take Camera offset and add x% Head position/rotation
You can also add a spring mechanism like adding a tween with the InOutElastic easytype or an altered sinus (thats how human behaviour is, your head does not move in linear easetypes when turning your head (except in "The Exorcist")) (in game dev you need tweens and these easetypes quite often to simulate the nature https://d19oqafiwfkr0c.cloudfront.net/content-image/original-be13377e-556504c0d279e.png )
TL;DR With the 2nd solution (in graphic this is an elastic pole on the character) I can do everything what I can do with the 1st (which is the chicken head) but with a more reliable and stable result > though CIG has gone for the first
IMHO I can imagine a dev suggesting the 2nd solution and CR going on a rage and ask why the F****** cam isn't any longer inherit from the head.
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
Oh and before I forget - the CIG way now is as soon as they realise that their camera system reacts sometimes dodgy to put another system on top of it to reduce the dodgyness ... that's what I mean with overcomplicated.
Edit: and find a fancy name for it like "Camera-Lag-Reducing System (CLRS)"
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
Oh and before I forget - the CIG way now is as soon as they realise that their camera system reacts sometimes dodgy to put another system on top of it to reduce the dodgyness ... that's what I mean with overcomplicated.
Edit: and find a fancy name for it like "Camera-Lag-Reducing System (CLRS)"
I'm quoting here to reduce the size of the post.
I can agree with you, a stable camera would be nice. I remember the initial head bob as being quite nauseating. That being said, I don't have any information about how they've implemented their head bob and why. It could be reactionary or it could be proactive to a larger system. We don't have access to their design documents, mind maps, or whatever else they're using to manage this. I've been involved with plenty of projects where it seemed like we were just putting band-aids on bullet holes only to find out that there are very specific reasons for the implementation, many of which weren't because the system was horribly broken (some yes). I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Having read through the Kotaku articles I find them to be a pretty decent piece of 'objective' journalism, as far as objective goes of course. I like the inclusion of Derek Smart and the 24 year old feud exposing big flaws in both Smarts AND Roberts character. Around here most just point at Smart because that is the easy thing to do.
As for SC? I lost all sympathy when I read about ship debt. Selling virtual ships for a game that does not exist yet is dubious. Selling ships that have not even been designed yet for a game that does not exist yet borders on criminal imo.
Roberts has never delivered everything he has promised in any of his games, why SC might be different is a mystery to me. Why people act like he can pull it of and heavily defend it is an even bigger mystery, are people that starved for a decent space sim that they are humping the hype train like no tomorrow?
The future will tell but I think a lot of people are going to be very disappointed. And I ain't talking levels of SotA disappointment either...... Here is to hoping I am wrong.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Oh, I think that disappointment is a given. That's not an SC issue though, that's a GAMER issue. Actually, it's a human issue. There is plenty of interesting information surrounding hype and there is actually a hype curve that pretty accurately illustrates what people go through.
As for selling ships, I can't fathom where someone feels they could get $10k of value out of any game. Either way, it's their money, so have at it, I guess. Just because it's not something that you can justify in your mind doesn't mean it's criminal. There is plenty of snake oil for sale that I can't understand either, but it's somehow still allowed to be sold.
As far as delivery goes, I would have preferred to see a phased release, similar to what ED is doing, but whatever, I guess they're going to take some heat up-front to do what they want to do. As far as your disbelief, I think it's reasonable to say that not everything will be delivered. Do you feel like the core game is something that will be delivered, though? It seems like gamers are very sensitive around what's delivered for some games and less concerned about what's delivered for others, and that generally seems proportionate to how critical they are of the game. Could just be me, but that's just something I've observed.
Ohhh, I think the core game, the one initially promised will be delivered, good or not. However, the initially promised game has very little in common with the behemoth Roberts is selling right now. Roberts is selling his wildest and most ambitious dream. And there is nothing wrong with that besides the quite obvious fact that he is not selling it as a dream but as a game he will actually deliver.
Phased release seems like the way to go but will take such a tremendous amount of time with all the stuff being promised that I can see the game running out of steam before 25% of its features have been added, if that even happens. But like I said before, I hope I am wrong, I just don't think I am.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Comments
It'll be a while before you get to miss that stuff. While trying to pull up an early quote on the subject (search here sucks), there was someone giving me 'what for' for claiming things weren't going to be out in 2014. Things that still aren't out.
And as mentioned above, there will definitely be documentaries.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Given their track record in handling things competently, I expect the eventual release to be especially bug filled and troublesome. Safe bet there, of course.
There will still be people telling everyone to just wait, it'll be great next year.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
SC is using a very shady marketing strategy, it's like exploiting drug addicts, this and the dodgy things they are claiming (which iincludes that they have confirmed every wish on the fans wishlist only to hype the hype and to rake more money) did a hell lot of damage to the crowdfunding society.
From a developers point of view they are overcomplicating things without having a solid line, it's like watching a rookie dev designing his first game.
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
Ok, so I will agree with you that DS gets too much credit, although he has been a massive asshole since before SC, so he earned that rep himself. So the fact that some people think SC is what made DS famous (or infamous) speaks a lot to their knowledge about him and what he's done and I feel sorry for people who are following him because they think he's some sort of crusader for the good of humanity. He has not and will not offer anything good to humanity when he leaves this Earth, at this rate.
Secondly, you're dealing in seriously vague, nebulous information. Honestly, I would have absolutely no problem engaging with people in an intelligent debate if their arguments were actually intelligent, well-constructed thoughts. Instead we get:
1) very shady marketing.... exploiting.... etc. There is absolutely zero evidence of this. We DO know that there are choices. However, saying that they are exploiting people like drug addicts would suggest that there is an ever-increasing average backer amount, which there isn't. It's like saying that Cadbury is exploiting customers by providing a lot of choices of chocolate bar. The fact that they provide variety does not, at all, show that they are exploiting customers.
2) They are damaging crowdfunding!!! There is no evidence that they have damaged crowdfunding at all. There has been bad press around crowdfunding since 2009, long before SC. It may provide ammunition, but nothing that isn't available anywhere else. For instance, I am a backer of Torment: Tides of Numenera and it is MUCH MUCH less complex than SC and is running just as late (years late, not months). I'm sure if I felt like the information I provided mattered I could find even more examples.
3) They have no idea what they're doing!! You have absolutely no idea about running a game project, and probably even a software project. If you did, then you wouldn't make such a blatantly holier-than-thou statement, like managing software projects is something that just a fucking breeze. If that was the case why the fuck do we still see issues in network layers in nearly EVERY MMO released, over a decade after MMOs were popularized? Go read some more recent articles, you'll actually see CR openly admit his mistakes and also admits that he does have high standards and doesn't get along with people who aren't willing to increase the level of their standards to meet that. So it's certainly not a matter of him being an idiot, he's well-aware that he is demanding and what he's requesting is maybe beyond what's currently being done, but he doesn't care. Maybe that's a knock against him, because he's challenging people, but he's not a bumbling idiot.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
waitwaitwait ... point 3 just pops in my eyes (You have absolutely no idea about running a game project), this is actually not true
Though your response seems to be a little bit aggressive.
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
Side of that, only SQ42 is what is not yet released.
You can see the Citizencon 2015 Demo and see by yourself how it IS in-game, released 2 months after.
So what exactly is the half of that stuff on the video that is not in-game?
Or are you mentioning by half, SQ42?
To my memory there's only 2 demos on Citcon 2015:
- Alpha 2.0 = Currently Released
- SQ42 first demo (Morrow Tour) = Currently Un-Released.
Unless when you're talking about half of that stuff is not released, to be about SQ42... I'm not hiding anything, you would be pretending I am.
Hey, the response is DEFINITELY aggressive and I'll still stick behind it saying that you've never run a game project, I'd put money on it. Any reasonable person who has any amount of experience in the software industry, nevermind games or even project management, understands the complexity of what's trying to be done. Additionally, those who have managed projects understand how managing multiple teams contributing to the same project increases the complexity. Furthermore, they should at least appreciate how managing multiple teams across different offices/time zones complicates things.
If you had, maybe, said something like CR got in way over his head with multiple offices then at least that provides some context to what you're saying. All you say is "From a developers point of view they are overcomplicating things without having a solid line, it's like watching a rookie dev designing his first game." which is, possibly, the biggest blanket statement ever. This is what I'm talking about. You can't disagree that they are over-complicating things, but you could also argue that every project ever run was over-complicated at some level. This is inherent in any project and it's why we have entire retrospective meetings discussing things we did well and things we could improve.
Honestly, your statement is like saying, "I don't get why humans are so amazing, they're just a bunch of cells."
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
An example of overcomplicating things in development.
Create a Character > Assign the CharacterCamera to the Character Motor > inherit its position and rotation from the eyes > now design a system that is nulling out the movement from the eyes in conjunction to the base character mode to flat out head bobbing
2 Systems that fight against each other, fine in single player not a good idea in multiplayer because the position has to be forecast through the Character controller > Animation controller/Bones > Physics > Ragdoll to reach the position of the eyes.
Processing: Character Motor > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll > Camera
Expected Result: when a lag occurs your camera will pop out of the character and you will see your headless self. No testing for lag or errors can avoid that because you have to go through at least 4 systems that can influence the position of the eyes before processing the camera.
ok we will test something more stable:
Create a character > inherit the camera to the Motor (with a height axis offset from the eyes).
Processing: Character Motor > Camera > Animation controller > Physics > Ragdoll
Result: no Headbobbing and just one system can influence the position. If this one lags the camera will lag with it. On top of that you can dampening and tween the eyes position to get a more natural behaviour (or add a headbob
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
Have fun
Ok well that's more of an implementation over a requirement. I would ask,though,what do you see as an advantage of the first implementation over the second? If the second is so obvious there must, obviously, be some gains realized from the first, more complicated.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
The second one needs a little restructuring of the player object and a bit more programming but is more stable and reliable in the long run.
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
As for SC? I lost all sympathy when I read about ship debt. Selling virtual ships for a game that does not exist yet is dubious. Selling ships that have not even been designed yet for a game that does not exist yet borders on criminal imo.
Roberts has never delivered everything he has promised in any of his games, why SC might be different is a mystery to me. Why people act like he can pull it of and heavily defend it is an even bigger mystery, are people that starved for a decent space sim that they are humping the hype train like no tomorrow?
The future will tell but I think a lot of people are going to be very disappointed. And I ain't talking levels of SotA disappointment either...... Here is to hoping I am wrong.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Sorry, just saw your reply.
Ok, first of all, I think they did add head bob dampening, or that's coming. I agree that the head bob was whack. That being said, based on my understanding if they were to implement something like option 2 there would be a disconnect between the first person space and the world space, or as others might interpret that player, especially if things like head bob are added afterwards. So they are, essentially, sacrificing performance for realism. Would that be a fair estimation?
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Oh, I think that disappointment is a given. That's not an SC issue though, that's a GAMER issue. Actually, it's a human issue. There is plenty of interesting information surrounding hype and there is actually a hype curve that pretty accurately illustrates what people go through.
As for selling ships, I can't fathom where someone feels they could get $10k of value out of any game. Either way, it's their money, so have at it, I guess. Just because it's not something that you can justify in your mind doesn't mean it's criminal. There is plenty of snake oil for sale that I can't understand either, but it's somehow still allowed to be sold.
As far as delivery goes, I would have preferred to see a phased release, similar to what ED is doing, but whatever, I guess they're going to take some heat up-front to do what they want to do. As far as your disbelief, I think it's reasonable to say that not everything will be delivered. Do you feel like the core game is something that will be delivered, though? It seems like gamers are very sensitive around what's delivered for some games and less concerned about what's delivered for others, and that generally seems proportionate to how critical they are of the game. Could just be me, but that's just something I've observed.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
A disconnect from the 1st to 3rd to spectator is both solutions, because you are altering the 1st person view in both cases.
I just wanted to point out that to have a stable camera should be top priority in this scene. To have 2 systems fighting each other costs ressources and is bug ridden.
1st Solution (as CIG implemented it) - From World point to Camera
Player -> Character Controller -> Animation Controller -> Physics (Inverse Kinematics) -> Ragdoll (Kinematics) -> Head position/rotation >>> From here I know where the Eyes are. They inherit the Camera now in the middle of the Head and recalculate backwards to get the actual delta to sub it from the camera to null out head
2nd Solution - From World point to Camera
Player -> Character Controller -> Animation Controller -> Physics (Inverse Kinematics) -> Ragdoll (Kinematics) -> Head position/rotation
Player -> Character Controller -> Camera
From here I can offset the camera to the Head rotation/position and it would be the exact same result as #1 though when the character controller lags the camera would lag with it without having to calculate all the other systems (which will multiply the lag expotentially due to having the animations and physics send over the network as well.)
From here I can also check if the character is lagging by checking the whole systems and react before the camera already has been moved with the head - it will still move with the controller
In both cases I can add and reduce head bobbing by saying:
(1) Take Camera offset to controller and dampen it by x% by calculating the delta to the controller (CIG has choosen to dampen 100%).
(2) Take Camera offset and add x% Head position/rotation
You can also add a spring mechanism like adding a tween with the InOutElastic easytype or an altered sinus (thats how human behaviour is, your head does not move in linear easetypes when turning your head (except in "The Exorcist"))
(in game dev you need tweens and these easetypes quite often to simulate the nature https://d19oqafiwfkr0c.cloudfront.net/content-image/original-be13377e-556504c0d279e.png )
TL;DR With the 2nd solution (in graphic this is an elastic pole on the character) I can do everything what I can do with the 1st (which is the chicken head) but with a more reliable and stable result > though CIG has gone for the first
IMHO I can imagine a dev suggesting the 2nd solution and CR going on a rage and ask why the F****** cam isn't any longer inherit from the head.
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
Edit: and find a fancy name for it like "Camera-Lag-Reducing System (CLRS)"
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
I'm quoting here to reduce the size of the post.
I can agree with you, a stable camera would be nice. I remember the initial head bob as being quite nauseating. That being said, I don't have any information about how they've implemented their head bob and why. It could be reactionary or it could be proactive to a larger system. We don't have access to their design documents, mind maps, or whatever else they're using to manage this. I've been involved with plenty of projects where it seemed like we were just putting band-aids on bullet holes only to find out that there are very specific reasons for the implementation, many of which weren't because the system was horribly broken (some yes). I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Phased release seems like the way to go but will take such a tremendous amount of time with all the stuff being promised that I can see the game running out of steam before 25% of its features have been added, if that even happens. But like I said before, I hope I am wrong, I just don't think I am.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer