It seems from what Suzie has said that no "boxes" are being bought, as long as that's the case it is not casino gaming. It is a variation on the grind that has been with us since the beginning of MMOs. It seems to be moving into new areas like crafting, not sure that's good, a MMO should not rely on RNG alone.
No no boxes you still have to buy the special mounts in the cash shop.
Lol, I remember the old days where it took forever to get anything. Maybe people should stop rushing and enjoy the games for what they are. All this pixel elitism makes me cringe and laugh at the same time.
I played Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Everquest 2 for many years, but about 8-10 years ago I started to become disillusioned with all the grinding. Maybe it was getting older and realizing how truly precious real-life time was that caused it. Regardless, while I do enjoy RNG in some forms (i.e. procedurally generated rooms, procedurally generated modifiers like in Ziggurat, and even random item drops as one previous poster said) there comes a point where one must say "Enough is enough" Even if I had all day every day to play video games I still couldn't and wouldn't "anchor" myself to a virtual world that, if you get right down to it, is all 0's and 1's on a display.
I find it more that the game will last me longer. It really is just a release from reality, so why would I want it to end sooner. I played all those games as well, and I like it when a game takes me longer to achieve what I want.
That is true. It is an escape from reality, but as long as I'm in "escape mode" I'd much prefer to enjoy the journey a bit more. Albatroes, who replied first to this article, said it right when he mentioned older games having "one version." The player either learned to master that one version of difficulty or not. But this topic is about time investment for loot in a game. I suppose the question is: When does it end and for what purpose? There's bragging rights to say "I've collected all of X items" or "I achieved all that there is currently available to do in this game" but I guess for me that became insufficient. At least with Dark Age of Camelot I felt like I was fighting for something instead of "Grind A to get B so you can get C so you can get D so you can get E......"
Lol, I remember the old days where it took forever to get anything. Maybe people should stop rushing and enjoy the games for what they are. All this pixel elitism makes me cringe and laugh at the same time.
I played Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Everquest 2 for many years, but about 8-10 years ago I started to become disillusioned with all the grinding. Maybe it was getting older and realizing how truly precious real-life time was that caused it. Regardless, while I do enjoy RNG in some forms (i.e. procedurally generated rooms, procedurally generated modifiers like in Ziggurat, and even random item drops as one previous poster said) there comes a point where one must say "Enough is enough" Even if I had all day every day to play video games I still couldn't and wouldn't "anchor" myself to a virtual world that, if you get right down to it, is all 0's and 1's on a display.
I find it more that the game will last me longer. It really is just a release from reality, so why would I want it to end sooner. I played all those games as well, and I like it when a game takes me longer to achieve what I want.
That is true. It is an escape from reality, but as long as I'm in "escape mode" I'd much prefer to enjoy the journey a bit more. Albatroes, who replied first to this article, said it right when he mentioned older games having "one version." The player either learned to master that one version of difficulty or not. But this topic is about time investment for loot in a game. I suppose the question is: When does it end and for what purpose? There's bragging rights to say "I've collected all of X items" or "I achieved all that there is currently available to do in this game" but I guess for me that became insufficient. At least with Dark Age of Camelot I felt like I was fighting for something instead of "Grind A to get B so you can get C so you can get D so you can get E......"
Agreed. I m still subbed to DAOC, but between that and WoW now I m set. I m still fighting for a reason , and don t feel like it s time wasted.
The real issue is how the community is handling this ilevel bloat in game. If you try to pug anything now through LFG tool, people are asking for ilevels that are higher than what drops in said content. With the amount of RNG gearing in this expansion you can be pretty unlucky with drops and there is really nothing you can do about that. At least in past expansions you could farm currency that minimized your bad luck. A little rng is okay but they went too far with it in my opinion.
Lol, I remember the old days where it took forever to get anything. Maybe people should stop rushing and enjoy the games for what they are. All this pixel elitism makes me cringe and laugh at the same time.
I played Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Everquest 2 for many years, but about 8-10 years ago I started to become disillusioned with all the grinding. Maybe it was getting older and realizing how truly precious real-life time was that caused it. Regardless, while I do enjoy RNG in some forms (i.e. procedurally generated rooms, procedurally generated modifiers like in Ziggurat, and even random item drops as one previous poster said) there comes a point where one must say "Enough is enough" Even if I had all day every day to play video games I still couldn't and wouldn't "anchor" myself to a virtual world that, if you get right down to it, is all 0's and 1's on a display.
I find it more that the game will last me longer. It really is just a release from reality, so why would I want it to end sooner. I played all those games as well, and I like it when a game takes me longer to achieve what I want.
That is true. It is an escape from reality, but as long as I'm in "escape mode" I'd much prefer to enjoy the journey a bit more. Albatroes, who replied first to this article, said it right when he mentioned older games having "one version." The player either learned to master that one version of difficulty or not. But this topic is about time investment for loot in a game. I suppose the question is: When does it end and for what purpose? There's bragging rights to say "I've collected all of X items" or "I achieved all that there is currently available to do in this game" but I guess for me that became insufficient. At least with Dark Age of Camelot I felt like I was fighting for something instead of "Grind A to get B so you can get C so you can get D so you can get E......"
Agreed. I m still subbed to DAOC, but between that and WoW now I m set. I m still fighting for a reason , and don t feel like it s time wasted.
It's funny, too, because I got an email just this morning stating DAoC was celebrating their 15th anniversary and are awarding people 30 free days. I may actually go back, if for nothing other than the nostalgia.
So! With the last .. few xpacs , most of you cried that after 1 month, there is nothing more to do in WoW, and now , when there are some very interesting and yes, grindy things to do which will require time to complete , you are .. crying?
/face(palm)
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
I'm pretty sure that many of the features listed above originally came from games like Guild Wars 2. I
mean I saw the Fractals (GRift or Mythic Plus) dungeon system with a
difficulty scale and with so called Mystlock Instability (WoW M+
Affixes) mechanics first introduced back in 2012 in GW2. D3 did the same
later with GRifts starting in 2014. Yes D3 and WoW has key items and
the progression is not account wide but the rest is basically the same
idea as Fractals. That's just one example among many like Account
Wardrobe and other end game progression systems. GW2 had WvW masteries
back in 2013 and later in 2015 PvE masteries came with a different
twist. You basically progress in a selected mastery and you also collect
mastery points besides mastery xp. The higher level the selected
mastery is the more grind it requires to get it unlocked. The Artifact
Weapon progression seems to be a merged implementation of HoT Legendary
journey + the PvE Mastery system. WoW even tried to implement the
Action Camera controls in Legion as GW2 did the same earlier with the
HoT expansion but Blizzard's solution was reportedly causing motion
sickness and they removed the feature right after release. I guess they
rushed it and the complaints were due to unreasonably limited zoom and
FoV settings bound to action controls. Of course all these features
are great when they are done right but they have never been exclusive to Diablo 3. I'm not even
saying that ANet or other MMO devs invented the wheel but it was strange
to see the same features in Blizzard's games not long after GW2 took
the risk to try and enhance them live on the same market.
Umm no.
Umm yes. I'm a huge fan of Blizzard and currently playing Legion and loving it. But he is right. Most of these features originally came from Guild Wars 2. Actually since Guild Wars 2 realese Blizzard took a lot of things from it and implemented them to WoW. I'm glad they did it. WoW is in an amazing state right now. And I couldn't be happier about it.
I'm pretty sure that many of the features listed above originally came from games like Guild Wars 2. I
mean I saw the Fractals (GRift or Mythic Plus) dungeon system with a
difficulty scale and with so called Mystlock Instability (WoW M+
Affixes) mechanics first introduced back in 2012 in GW2. D3 did the same
later with GRifts starting in 2014. Yes D3 and WoW has key items and
the progression is not account wide but the rest is basically the same
idea as Fractals. That's just one example among many like Account
Wardrobe and other end game progression systems. GW2 had WvW masteries
back in 2013 and later in 2015 PvE masteries came with a different
twist. You basically progress in a selected mastery and you also collect
mastery points besides mastery xp. The higher level the selected
mastery is the more grind it requires to get it unlocked. The Artifact
Weapon progression seems to be a merged implementation of HoT Legendary
journey + the PvE Mastery system. WoW even tried to implement the
Action Camera controls in Legion as GW2 did the same earlier with the
HoT expansion but Blizzard's solution was reportedly causing motion
sickness and they removed the feature right after release. I guess they
rushed it and the complaints were due to unreasonably limited zoom and
FoV settings bound to action controls. Of course all these features
are great when they are done right but they have never been exclusive to Diablo 3. I'm not even
saying that ANet or other MMO devs invented the wheel but it was strange
to see the same features in Blizzard's games not long after GW2 took
the risk to try and enhance them live on the same market.
Umm no.
Umm yes. I'm a huge fan of Blizzard and currently playing Legion and loving it. But he is right. Most of these features originally came from Guild Wars 2. Actually since Guild Wars 2 realese Blizzard took a lot of things from it and implemented them to WoW. I'm glad they did it. WoW is in an amazing state right now. And I couldn't be happier about it.
agreed but as Blizz does it s better then what GW2 does, hence the ummm no.
Oh , and i LOVE the Diablofication of WoW! I am fan of Diablo (3) !
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
So! With the last .. few xpacs , most of you cried that after 1 month, there is nothing more to do in WoW, and now , when there are some very interesting and yes, grindy things to do which will require time to complete , you are .. crying?
/face(palm)
The main complaint that people have isn't about grind or time, it's about the RNG on top of RNG. In fact, I imagine that most people would prefer an actual grind if there was a definitive and specific reward at the end. The problem is that first you have the RNG of an item dropping or not, then you have the RNG of the item level staying at base or rolling higher, then you have the secondary stats which may or may not be valued by your class/spec. And since they removed reforging from the game, you're stuck with the secondary stats that you get. So if you're lucky enough to get the double RNG of an item actually dropping and the ilvl rolling higher than your current piece, it may not even be an upgrade because it may have shitty secondary stats.
It seems from what Suzie has said that no "boxes" are being bought, as long as that's the case it is not casino gaming. It is a variation on the grind that has been with us since the beginning of MMOs. It seems to be moving into new areas like crafting, not sure that's good, a MMO should not rely on RNG alone.
It's the exact same mechanic packaged in a different wrapper. At least you acknowledge that it's been a part of mmo gaming since the beginning. Clever packaging has fooled mmo gamers for nearly two decades now.
I disagree its a matter of being fooled. Odds for something being dropped have been around for quite some time on sites like WoWhead
Carrot on Stick et all
Does Blizzard publish those odds or are they a calculated estimate based on observation? There is a difference. Usually on the hobbyist level a big difference.
Besides, it doesn't matter because they both have RNG odds associated with getting what you want. You can measure the success and odds of getting a loot box item or an epic upgrade or the drop you want. The mechanic is essentially the same just different packaging.
I agree with you on principle.
IMHO Blizzard is totally guilty of abusing the subscription model.
One of the good points about the subscription only model is that it limits a person to being taken advantage of for $15 a month.
The Cash Shop RNG Loot Box model ?
I agree with many of your points (not all), but would point out that WoW has a cash shop and RMT to gold conversion through their tokens. Their "loot boxes" are hidden behind their loot drop mechanics that keep people pulling that one-armed-bandit in their search for the epic. The cash shop however is right out there in the open just like other cash shop games. That's why I always say these things are more complicated and muddy than "P2P" "B2P" "F2P" "RN" "grind" etc. Each game, studio, and publisher has their own secret (or not so secret) sauce of how they design and sell their games. They don't just all implement those things in the same way.
I want to have fun in the games I am playing. If having fun then will keep playing. Grind and RNG to a degree doesn't bother me. I have moved away from MMOs for the most part as don't enjoy them enough. I like the non-combat part of BDO but that is it recently. I do like D3 though and will play a lot in short bursts. It is fun and lots of loot that is always changing. I also don't have to worry as much about how geared I am to jump in and just play with random people. Let me know when Wow gets to that level of Diablofication and I might check it out again.
It seems from what Suzie has said that no "boxes" are being bought, as long as that's the case it is not casino gaming. It is a variation on the grind that has been with us since the beginning of MMOs. It seems to be moving into new areas like crafting, not sure that's good, a MMO should not rely on RNG alone.
It's the exact same mechanic packaged in a different wrapper. At least you acknowledge that it's been a part of mmo gaming since the beginning. Clever packaging has fooled mmo gamers for nearly two decades now.
I disagree its a matter of being fooled. Odds for something being dropped have been around for quite some time on sites like WoWhead
Carrot on Stick et all
Does Blizzard publish those odds or are they a calculated estimate based on observation? There is a difference. Usually on the hobbyist level a big difference.
Besides, it doesn't matter because they both have RNG odds associated with getting what you want. You can measure the success and odds of getting a loot box item or an epic upgrade or the drop you want. The mechanic is essentially the same just different packaging.
I agree with you on principle.
IMHO Blizzard is totally guilty of abusing the subscription model.
One of the good points about the subscription only model is that it limits a person to being taken advantage of for $15 a month.
The Cash Shop RNG Loot Box model ?
I agree with many of your points (not all), but would point out that WoW has a cash shop and RMT to gold conversion through their tokens. Their "loot boxes" are hidden behind their loot drop mechanics that keep people pulling that one-armed-bandit in their search for the epic. The cash shop however is right out there in the open just like other cash shop games. That's why I always say these things are more complicated and muddy than "P2P" "B2P" "F2P" "RN" "grind" etc. Each game, studio, and publisher has their own secret (or not so secret) sauce of how they design and sell their games. They don't just all implement those things in the same way.
Good point. Players pay the $15 and that gives them entry into the casino and the opportunity to pull the handle of the slot machines for 30 days.
And as @Forgrimm says: if one star comes up they get an item; two stars it actually has an iLevel higher than their current item; three stars it actually has stats that are viable.
The odds of any one star coming up is low; three stars .... yeah. And there is no "grind path" available. Which means - as @borghive49 says - you are getting LFG requests for iLevels that might drop.
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
To me the RNG-lucky dip daily grind that is end-game plus the spec-specific artifact grind isn't fun at all. And fuck garrison resources 2.0 yuck.
There is too much solo crap in WoW for an MMO for my liking and the various game systems feel tacked-on as well. I like things to do but I still feel like I'm playing alone in my garrison just now there are others running around in it.
I hate to be one of those cliché douchebags but I only lasted a month before canceling my sub this xpac which is something of a record for me. Oh well.
Yeah the true legion design is showing through now. Clearly very diablo like. Welcome to the RNG in a major way. Putting RNG in a major way into crafting really ruins the game for me. I have not got any of my crafters up above 725, the demands for so many materials is ridiculous. Today I spent almost 5 hours gathers materials to make two items.
I have never been much of a dungeon runner. In this game you almost spend half your time in them. Since there are not many of these instances it really really gets repetitive. Just making the instance harder does not change this one bit.
all this talk about RNG and 0 mentions about legendary drops? and bug that was "fixed" ...that made that ppl that got 1 legendary 1 week upped the odds of having a 2nd fast? (i have seen ppl with up to 3 legendaries!) , while tons have NONE
I think this article points out every problem I am having with this expansion. While I own Diablo III, I don't care for it's near instant repetitiveness. If I wanted to play Diablo III, I would go play Diablo III.
I'm okay with a little RNG in the quest rewards possibly proc'ing a upgraded version of the gear. Questing is leveling and not end game.
But the added RNG and the tiered recipe system of crafting just makes it more tedious. Everything I hear about Nomi makes me not want to bother with Legion cooking because it's literally RNG-ception. Forget that. If I do the quest, give me the damn reward, not this chance at a chance of a chance crap. Too bad Blizzard doesn't know how to make crafting matter for end game unless you're a jewelcrafter, alchemist, or cook (buff crafter).
While I like the quest/zone scaling and believe it's done well, I don't see any reason to stack RNG on my RNG in my dugeons.
Like a fair amount of the WoW community, I'm a working adult and don't always have time to grind for grind sake. And when presented in this manner, it sounds pretty damn grindy,
It seems from what Suzie has said that no "boxes" are being bought, as long as that's the case it is not casino gaming. It is a variation on the grind that has been with us since the beginning of MMOs. It seems to be moving into new areas like crafting, not sure that's good, a MMO should not rely on RNG alone.
It's the exact same mechanic packaged in a different wrapper. At least you acknowledge that it's been a part of mmo gaming since the beginning. Clever packaging has fooled mmo gamers for nearly two decades now.
There is a gulf between randomness with grind and randomness with casino purchased play. It is not a matter of fooling players, it is including randomness in such a way that it does not make gameplay of secondary importance.
When you make random luck more important than dedication to playing or team management you are turning MMOs into fruit (slot) machine games even if you don't have to put a coin in.
Seriously the randomness in drops is the best thing in a mmo.... for now its just possible upgrades of the same item...that is SUPER... I am starting to get tired of asking something in wow general and getting a response go to wowhead for the answer.....is it an mmo....or not? What will make you go back to a dungeon if not a better item? This will make looking for raids/dungeons much faster than before..( they already are atleast in my server it won't take more than 20 min for a group..and even less for a raid.) Mythics are there for small guilds but organized and Raids for larger organized guilds...it can't get any better. For me if it was COMPLETE random it would be even better. Diablo MMO style is the best move Blizzard could possibly make to keep players in the game for long.
My only problem with Legion is for once again everything you did before is ZERO now...They should find a formula to fix this. Give something for Garrisons to have a reason to make..Same for shipyards. Or just DELETE them and give something to players for obtaining them as compensation.
Why not make set items continuosly upgradable from tier 1 - 20 through upgraded items..and not deleting all before and trying for the new latest tier which will last for 1 year....
Same for legendaries...how much time to get the legendary ring as high as possible to make it obsolete...Legendaries SHOULD NEVER be obsolete....
What will happen to artifacts in next expansion? Do we throw them away when the next green lvl 111 weapon is 20% better than the fully leveled artifact??
my 10 cents..
Comments
No no boxes you still have to buy the special mounts in the cash shop.
That is true. It is an escape from reality, but as long as I'm in "escape mode" I'd much prefer to enjoy the journey a bit more. Albatroes, who replied first to this article, said it right when he mentioned older games having "one version." The player either learned to master that one version of difficulty or not. But this topic is about time investment for loot in a game. I suppose the question is: When does it end and for what purpose? There's bragging rights to say "I've collected all of X items" or "I achieved all that there is currently available to do in this game" but I guess for me that became insufficient. At least with Dark Age of Camelot I felt like I was fighting for something instead of "Grind A to get B so you can get C so you can get D so you can get E......"
Agreed. I m still subbed to DAOC, but between that and WoW now I m set. I m still fighting for a reason , and don t feel like it s time wasted.
It's funny, too, because I got an email just this morning stating DAoC was celebrating their 15th anniversary and are awarding people 30 free days. I may actually go back, if for nothing other than the nostalgia.
/face(palm)
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
agreed but as Blizz does it s better then what GW2 does, hence the ummm no.
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
You will get no argument from me here
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
And as @Forgrimm says: if one star comes up they get an item; two stars it actually has an iLevel higher than their current item; three stars it actually has stats that are viable.
The odds of any one star coming up is low; three stars .... yeah. And there is no "grind path" available. Which means - as @borghive49 says - you are getting LFG requests for iLevels that might drop.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
There is too much solo crap in WoW for an MMO for my liking and the various game systems feel tacked-on as well. I like things to do but I still feel like I'm playing alone in my garrison just now there are others running around in it.
I hate to be one of those cliché douchebags but I only lasted a month before canceling my sub this xpac which is something of a record for me. Oh well.
I have never been much of a dungeon runner. In this game you almost spend half your time in them. Since there are not many of these instances it really really gets repetitive. Just making the instance harder does not change this one bit.
I'm okay with a little RNG in the quest rewards possibly proc'ing a upgraded version of the gear. Questing is leveling and not end game.
But the added RNG and the tiered recipe system of crafting just makes it more tedious. Everything I hear about Nomi makes me not want to bother with Legion cooking because it's literally RNG-ception. Forget that. If I do the quest, give me the damn reward, not this chance at a chance of a chance crap. Too bad Blizzard doesn't know how to make crafting matter for end game unless you're a jewelcrafter, alchemist, or cook (buff crafter).
While I like the quest/zone scaling and believe it's done well, I don't see any reason to stack RNG on my RNG in my dugeons.
Like a fair amount of the WoW community, I'm a working adult and don't always have time to grind for grind sake. And when presented in this manner, it sounds pretty damn grindy,
There is a gulf between randomness with grind and randomness with casino purchased play. It is not a matter of fooling players, it is including randomness in such a way that it does not make gameplay of secondary importance.
When you make random luck more important than dedication to playing or team management you are turning MMOs into fruit (slot) machine games even if you don't have to put a coin in.
My only problem with Legion is for once again everything you did before is ZERO now...They should find a formula to fix this. Give something for Garrisons to have a reason to make..Same for shipyards. Or just DELETE them and give something to players for obtaining them as compensation.
Why not make set items continuosly upgradable from tier 1 - 20 through upgraded items..and not deleting all before and trying for the new latest tier which will last for 1 year....
Same for legendaries...how much time to get the legendary ring as high as possible to make it obsolete...Legendaries SHOULD NEVER be obsolete....
What will happen to artifacts in next expansion? Do we throw them away when the next green lvl 111 weapon is 20% better than the fully leveled artifact??
my 10 cents..