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The Diablofication of WoW

24

Comments

  • rertezrertez Member UncommonPosts: 222
    I'm pretty sure that many of the features listed above originally came from games like Guild Wars 2.
    I mean I saw the Fractals (GRift or Mythic Plus) dungeon system with a difficulty scale and with so called Mystlock Instability (WoW M+ Affixes) mechanics first introduced back in 2012 in GW2. D3 did the same later with GRifts starting in 2014. Yes D3 and WoW has key items and the progression is not account wide but the rest is basically the same idea as Fractals.
    That's just one example among many like Account Wardrobe and other end game progression systems. GW2 had WvW masteries back in 2013 and later in 2015 PvE masteries came with a different twist. You basically progress in a selected mastery and you also collect mastery points besides mastery xp. The higher level the selected mastery is the more grind it requires to get it unlocked. The Artifact Weapon progression seems to be a merged implementation of HoT Legendary journey + the PvE Mastery system.
    WoW even tried to implement the Action Camera controls in Legion as GW2 did the same earlier with the HoT expansion but Blizzard's solution was reportedly causing motion sickness and they removed the feature right after release. I guess they rushed it and the complaints were due to unreasonably limited zoom and FoV settings bound to action controls.
    Of course all these features are great when they are done right but they have never been exclusive to Diablo 3. I'm not even saying that ANet or other MMO devs invented the wheel but it was strange to see the same features in Blizzard's games not long after GW2 took the risk to try and enhance them live on the same market.
  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558
    rertez said:
    I'm pretty sure that many of the features listed above originally came from games like Guild Wars 2.
    I mean I saw the Fractals (GRift or Mythic Plus) dungeon system with a difficulty scale and with so called Mystlock Instability (WoW M+ Affixes) mechanics first introduced back in 2012 in GW2. D3 did the same later with GRifts starting in 2014. Yes D3 and WoW has key items and the progression is not account wide but the rest is basically the same idea as Fractals.
    That's just one example among many like Account Wardrobe and other end game progression systems. GW2 had WvW masteries back in 2013 and later in 2015 PvE masteries came with a different twist. You basically progress in a selected mastery and you also collect mastery points besides mastery xp. The higher level the selected mastery is the more grind it requires to get it unlocked. The Artifact Weapon progression seems to be a merged implementation of HoT Legendary journey + the PvE Mastery system.
    WoW even tried to implement the Action Camera controls in Legion as GW2 did the same earlier with the HoT expansion but Blizzard's solution was reportedly causing motion sickness and they removed the feature right after release. I guess they rushed it and the complaints were due to unreasonably limited zoom and FoV settings bound to action controls.
    Of course all these features are great when they are done right but they have never been exclusive to Diablo 3. I'm not even saying that ANet or other MMO devs invented the wheel but it was strange to see the same features in Blizzard's games not long after GW2 took the risk to try and enhance them live on the same market.

    Umm no.
  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,126
    isnt there a paladin spell thats alot like a crusader one?
    At least 2: The Crusader horse that is basically a summon that can be used as an escape mechanic and talented to be able to be used 2x -- hell on a battleground. In addition, the spinning hammers is a first row talent for Protection Pallies.


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


  • KamofilaKamofila Member UncommonPosts: 113

    Thane said:

    imo WoW ain't diablofied.



    that's a progress affecting both games for some years now, blizzard is moving them closer together.



    Diablo on the one hand, got more and more from WoW, while WoW... well, i think you get my point :)



    The RNG thing is part of WoW since the beginning, and who didn't notice, most likely never raided MC :>



    imo WoW ain't diablofied.
    Yes it is

    that's a progress affecting both games for some years now, blizzard is moving them closer together.
    But you just contradicted yourself

    Diablo on the one hand, got more and more from WoW, while WoW... well, i think you get my point :)
    You repeated yourself

    The RNG thing is part of WoW since the beginning, and who didn't notice, most likely never raided MC :>
    You are so pro and cool


    Slowly losing faith in humanity
    Yep

    Do you like lollipops? Suck it. Don't bite you greedy twit.

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,387

    Scot said:

    It seems from what Suzie has said that no "boxes" are being bought, as long as that's the case it is not casino gaming. It is a variation on the grind that has been with us since the beginning of MMOs. It seems to be moving into new areas like crafting, not sure that's good, a MMO should not rely on RNG alone.



    No no boxes you still have to buy the special mounts in the cash shop.
  • zephiriuszephirius Member UncommonPosts: 13

    Soki123 said:


    zephirius said:



    Soki123 said:


    Lol, I remember the old days where it took forever to get anything. Maybe people should stop rushing and enjoy the games for what they are. All this pixel elitism makes me cringe and laugh at the same time.






    I played Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Everquest 2 for many years, but about 8-10 years ago I started to become disillusioned with all the grinding. Maybe it was getting older and realizing how truly precious real-life time was that caused it. Regardless, while I do enjoy RNG in some forms (i.e. procedurally generated rooms, procedurally generated modifiers like in Ziggurat, and even random item drops as one previous poster said) there comes a point where one must say "Enough is enough" Even if I had all day every day to play video games I still couldn't and wouldn't "anchor" myself to a virtual world that, if you get right down to it, is all 0's and 1's on a display.


    I find it more that the game will last me longer. It really is just a release from reality, so why would I want it to end sooner. I played all those games as well, and I like it when a game takes me longer to achieve what I want.



    That is true. It is an escape from reality, but as long as I'm in "escape mode" I'd much prefer to enjoy the journey a bit more. Albatroes, who replied first to this article, said it right when he mentioned older games having "one version." The player either learned to master that one version of difficulty or not. But this topic is about time investment for loot in a game. I suppose the question is: When does it end and for what purpose? There's bragging rights to say "I've collected all of X items" or "I achieved all that there is currently available to do in this game" but I guess for me that became insufficient. At least with Dark Age of Camelot I felt like I was fighting for something instead of "Grind A to get B so you can get C so you can get D so you can get E......"
  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558
    zephirius said:

    Soki123 said:


    zephirius said:



    Soki123 said:


    Lol, I remember the old days where it took forever to get anything. Maybe people should stop rushing and enjoy the games for what they are. All this pixel elitism makes me cringe and laugh at the same time.






    I played Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Everquest 2 for many years, but about 8-10 years ago I started to become disillusioned with all the grinding. Maybe it was getting older and realizing how truly precious real-life time was that caused it. Regardless, while I do enjoy RNG in some forms (i.e. procedurally generated rooms, procedurally generated modifiers like in Ziggurat, and even random item drops as one previous poster said) there comes a point where one must say "Enough is enough" Even if I had all day every day to play video games I still couldn't and wouldn't "anchor" myself to a virtual world that, if you get right down to it, is all 0's and 1's on a display.


    I find it more that the game will last me longer. It really is just a release from reality, so why would I want it to end sooner. I played all those games as well, and I like it when a game takes me longer to achieve what I want.



    That is true. It is an escape from reality, but as long as I'm in "escape mode" I'd much prefer to enjoy the journey a bit more. Albatroes, who replied first to this article, said it right when he mentioned older games having "one version." The player either learned to master that one version of difficulty or not. But this topic is about time investment for loot in a game. I suppose the question is: When does it end and for what purpose? There's bragging rights to say "I've collected all of X items" or "I achieved all that there is currently available to do in this game" but I guess for me that became insufficient. At least with Dark Age of Camelot I felt like I was fighting for something instead of "Grind A to get B so you can get C so you can get D so you can get E......"

    Agreed. I m still subbed to DAOC, but between that and WoW now I m set. I m still fighting for a reason , and don t feel like it s time wasted.
  • borghive49borghive49 Member RarePosts: 372
    edited October 2016
    The real issue is how the community is handling this ilevel bloat in game. If you try to pug anything now through LFG tool, people are asking for ilevels that are higher than what drops in said content. With the amount of RNG gearing in this expansion you can be pretty unlucky with drops and there is really nothing you can do about that. At least in past expansions you could farm currency that minimized your bad luck.  A little rng is okay but they went too far with it in my opinion. 
  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558
    will be fixed, don t rush and wait. people just rush throught shit nowadays.
  • zephiriuszephirius Member UncommonPosts: 13

    Soki123 said:


    zephirius said:



    Soki123 said:




    zephirius said:





    Soki123 said:



    Lol, I remember the old days where it took forever to get anything. Maybe people should stop rushing and enjoy the games for what they are. All this pixel elitism makes me cringe and laugh at the same time.









    I played Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Everquest 2 for many years, but about 8-10 years ago I started to become disillusioned with all the grinding. Maybe it was getting older and realizing how truly precious real-life time was that caused it. Regardless, while I do enjoy RNG in some forms (i.e. procedurally generated rooms, procedurally generated modifiers like in Ziggurat, and even random item drops as one previous poster said) there comes a point where one must say "Enough is enough" Even if I had all day every day to play video games I still couldn't and wouldn't "anchor" myself to a virtual world that, if you get right down to it, is all 0's and 1's on a display.




    I find it more that the game will last me longer. It really is just a release from reality, so why would I want it to end sooner. I played all those games as well, and I like it when a game takes me longer to achieve what I want.






    That is true. It is an escape from reality, but as long as I'm in "escape mode" I'd much prefer to enjoy the journey a bit more. Albatroes, who replied first to this article, said it right when he mentioned older games having "one version." The player either learned to master that one version of difficulty or not. But this topic is about time investment for loot in a game. I suppose the question is: When does it end and for what purpose? There's bragging rights to say "I've collected all of X items" or "I achieved all that there is currently available to do in this game" but I guess for me that became insufficient. At least with Dark Age of Camelot I felt like I was fighting for something instead of "Grind A to get B so you can get C so you can get D so you can get E......"



    Agreed. I m still subbed to DAOC, but between that and WoW now I m set. I m still fighting for a reason , and don t feel like it s time wasted.



    It's funny, too, because I got an email just this morning stating DAoC was celebrating their 15th anniversary and are awarding people 30 free days. I may actually go back, if for nothing other than the nostalgia.
  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 2,291
    So! With the last .. few xpacs , most of you cried that after 1 month, there is nothing more to do in WoW, and now , when there are some very interesting and yes, grindy things to do which will require time to complete , you are .. crying?

    /face(palm)

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • NephethNepheth Member RarePosts: 429
    Soki123 said:
    rertez said:
    I'm pretty sure that many of the features listed above originally came from games like Guild Wars 2.
    I mean I saw the Fractals (GRift or Mythic Plus) dungeon system with a difficulty scale and with so called Mystlock Instability (WoW M+ Affixes) mechanics first introduced back in 2012 in GW2. D3 did the same later with GRifts starting in 2014. Yes D3 and WoW has key items and the progression is not account wide but the rest is basically the same idea as Fractals.
    That's just one example among many like Account Wardrobe and other end game progression systems. GW2 had WvW masteries back in 2013 and later in 2015 PvE masteries came with a different twist. You basically progress in a selected mastery and you also collect mastery points besides mastery xp. The higher level the selected mastery is the more grind it requires to get it unlocked. The Artifact Weapon progression seems to be a merged implementation of HoT Legendary journey + the PvE Mastery system.
    WoW even tried to implement the Action Camera controls in Legion as GW2 did the same earlier with the HoT expansion but Blizzard's solution was reportedly causing motion sickness and they removed the feature right after release. I guess they rushed it and the complaints were due to unreasonably limited zoom and FoV settings bound to action controls.
    Of course all these features are great when they are done right but they have never been exclusive to Diablo 3. I'm not even saying that ANet or other MMO devs invented the wheel but it was strange to see the same features in Blizzard's games not long after GW2 took the risk to try and enhance them live on the same market.

    Umm no.
    Umm yes. I'm a huge fan of Blizzard and currently playing Legion and loving it. But he is right. Most of these features originally came from Guild Wars 2. Actually since Guild Wars 2 realese Blizzard took a lot of things from it and implemented them to WoW. I'm  glad they did it. WoW is in an amazing state right now. And I couldn't be happier about it.
  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558
    Nepheth said:
    Soki123 said:
    rertez said:
    I'm pretty sure that many of the features listed above originally came from games like Guild Wars 2.
    I mean I saw the Fractals (GRift or Mythic Plus) dungeon system with a difficulty scale and with so called Mystlock Instability (WoW M+ Affixes) mechanics first introduced back in 2012 in GW2. D3 did the same later with GRifts starting in 2014. Yes D3 and WoW has key items and the progression is not account wide but the rest is basically the same idea as Fractals.
    That's just one example among many like Account Wardrobe and other end game progression systems. GW2 had WvW masteries back in 2013 and later in 2015 PvE masteries came with a different twist. You basically progress in a selected mastery and you also collect mastery points besides mastery xp. The higher level the selected mastery is the more grind it requires to get it unlocked. The Artifact Weapon progression seems to be a merged implementation of HoT Legendary journey + the PvE Mastery system.
    WoW even tried to implement the Action Camera controls in Legion as GW2 did the same earlier with the HoT expansion but Blizzard's solution was reportedly causing motion sickness and they removed the feature right after release. I guess they rushed it and the complaints were due to unreasonably limited zoom and FoV settings bound to action controls.
    Of course all these features are great when they are done right but they have never been exclusive to Diablo 3. I'm not even saying that ANet or other MMO devs invented the wheel but it was strange to see the same features in Blizzard's games not long after GW2 took the risk to try and enhance them live on the same market.

    Umm no.
    Umm yes. I'm a huge fan of Blizzard and currently playing Legion and loving it. But he is right. Most of these features originally came from Guild Wars 2. Actually since Guild Wars 2 realese Blizzard took a lot of things from it and implemented them to WoW. I'm  glad they did it. WoW is in an amazing state right now. And I couldn't be happier about it.

    agreed but as Blizz does it s better then what GW2 does, hence the ummm no.
  • MaelzraelMaelzrael Member UncommonPosts: 405
    I've been enjoying the expansion more and actually going out into the world daily. It's great.


  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 2,291
    Oh , and i LOVE the Diablofication of WoW! I am fan of Diablo (3) !

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,777
    laserit said:
    Torval said:
    laserit said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:
    It seems from what Suzie has said that no "boxes" are being bought, as long as that's the case it is not casino gaming. It is a variation on the grind that has been with us since the beginning of MMOs. It seems to be moving into new areas like crafting, not sure that's good, a MMO should not rely on RNG alone.
    It's the exact same mechanic packaged in a different wrapper. At least you acknowledge that it's been a part of mmo gaming since the beginning. Clever packaging has fooled mmo gamers for nearly two decades now.
    I disagree its a matter of being fooled. Odds for something being dropped have been around for quite some time on sites like WoWhead

    Carrot on Stick et all
    Does Blizzard publish those odds or are they a calculated estimate based on observation? There is a difference. Usually on the hobbyist level a big difference.

    Besides, it doesn't matter because they both have RNG odds associated with getting what you want. You can measure the success and odds of getting a loot box item or an epic upgrade or the drop you want. The mechanic is essentially the same just different packaging.
    I agree with you on principle.

    IMHO Blizzard is totally guilty of abusing the subscription model. 

    One of the good points about the subscription only model is that it limits a person to being taken advantage of for $15 a month.

    The Cash Shop RNG Loot Box model ?
    I agree with many of your points (not all), but would point out that WoW has a cash shop and RMT to gold conversion through their tokens. Their "loot boxes" are hidden behind their loot drop mechanics that keep people pulling that one-armed-bandit in their search for the epic. The cash shop however is right out there in the open just like other cash shop games. That's why I always say these things are more complicated and muddy than "P2P" "B2P" "F2P" "RN" "grind" etc. Each game, studio, and publisher has their own secret (or not so secret) sauce of how they design and sell their games. They don't just all implement those things in the same way.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,972
    IceAge said:
    So! With the last .. few xpacs , most of you cried that after 1 month, there is nothing more to do in WoW, and now , when there are some very interesting and yes, grindy things to do which will require time to complete , you are .. crying?

    /face(palm)
    The main complaint that people have isn't about grind or time, it's about the RNG on top of RNG. In fact, I imagine that most people would prefer an actual grind if there was a definitive and specific reward at the end. The problem is that first you have the RNG of an item dropping or not, then you have the RNG of the item level staying at base or rolling higher, then you have the secondary stats which may or may not be valued by your class/spec. And since they removed reforging from the game, you're stuck with the secondary stats that you get. So if you're lucky enough to get the double RNG of an item actually dropping and the ilvl rolling higher than your current piece, it may not even be an upgrade because it may have shitty secondary stats.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,157
    Torval said:
    laserit said:
    Torval said:
    laserit said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:
    It seems from what Suzie has said that no "boxes" are being bought, as long as that's the case it is not casino gaming. It is a variation on the grind that has been with us since the beginning of MMOs. It seems to be moving into new areas like crafting, not sure that's good, a MMO should not rely on RNG alone.
    It's the exact same mechanic packaged in a different wrapper. At least you acknowledge that it's been a part of mmo gaming since the beginning. Clever packaging has fooled mmo gamers for nearly two decades now.
    I disagree its a matter of being fooled. Odds for something being dropped have been around for quite some time on sites like WoWhead

    Carrot on Stick et all
    Does Blizzard publish those odds or are they a calculated estimate based on observation? There is a difference. Usually on the hobbyist level a big difference.

    Besides, it doesn't matter because they both have RNG odds associated with getting what you want. You can measure the success and odds of getting a loot box item or an epic upgrade or the drop you want. The mechanic is essentially the same just different packaging.
    I agree with you on principle.

    IMHO Blizzard is totally guilty of abusing the subscription model. 

    One of the good points about the subscription only model is that it limits a person to being taken advantage of for $15 a month.

    The Cash Shop RNG Loot Box model ?
    I agree with many of your points (not all), but would point out that WoW has a cash shop and RMT to gold conversion through their tokens. Their "loot boxes" are hidden behind their loot drop mechanics that keep people pulling that one-armed-bandit in their search for the epic. The cash shop however is right out there in the open just like other cash shop games. That's why I always say these things are more complicated and muddy than "P2P" "B2P" "F2P" "RN" "grind" etc. Each game, studio, and publisher has their own secret (or not so secret) sauce of how they design and sell their games. They don't just all implement those things in the same way.
    I'm no champion of Blizzards model.

    You will get no argument from me here ;) 

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • RobbgobbRobbgobb Member UncommonPosts: 664
    I want to have fun in the games I am playing. If having fun then will keep playing. Grind and RNG to a degree doesn't bother me. I have moved away from MMOs for the most part as don't enjoy them enough. I like the non-combat part of BDO but that is it recently. I do like D3 though and will play a lot in short bursts. It is fun and lots of loot that is always changing. I also don't have to worry as much about how geared I am to jump in and just play with random people. Let me know when Wow gets to that level of Diablofication and I might check it out again.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,387
    edited October 2016
    Torval said:
    laserit said:
    Torval said:
    laserit said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:
    It seems from what Suzie has said that no "boxes" are being bought, as long as that's the case it is not casino gaming. It is a variation on the grind that has been with us since the beginning of MMOs. It seems to be moving into new areas like crafting, not sure that's good, a MMO should not rely on RNG alone.
    It's the exact same mechanic packaged in a different wrapper. At least you acknowledge that it's been a part of mmo gaming since the beginning. Clever packaging has fooled mmo gamers for nearly two decades now.
    I disagree its a matter of being fooled. Odds for something being dropped have been around for quite some time on sites like WoWhead

    Carrot on Stick et all
    Does Blizzard publish those odds or are they a calculated estimate based on observation? There is a difference. Usually on the hobbyist level a big difference.

    Besides, it doesn't matter because they both have RNG odds associated with getting what you want. You can measure the success and odds of getting a loot box item or an epic upgrade or the drop you want. The mechanic is essentially the same just different packaging.
    I agree with you on principle.

    IMHO Blizzard is totally guilty of abusing the subscription model. 

    One of the good points about the subscription only model is that it limits a person to being taken advantage of for $15 a month.

    The Cash Shop RNG Loot Box model ?
    I agree with many of your points (not all), but would point out that WoW has a cash shop and RMT to gold conversion through their tokens. Their "loot boxes" are hidden behind their loot drop mechanics that keep people pulling that one-armed-bandit in their search for the epic. The cash shop however is right out there in the open just like other cash shop games. That's why I always say these things are more complicated and muddy than "P2P" "B2P" "F2P" "RN" "grind" etc. Each game, studio, and publisher has their own secret (or not so secret) sauce of how they design and sell their games. They don't just all implement those things in the same way.
    Good point. Players pay the $15 and that gives them entry into the casino and the opportunity to pull the handle of the slot machines for 30 days.

    And as @Forgrimm says: if one star comes up they get an item; two stars it actually has an iLevel higher than their current item; three stars it actually has stats that are viable.

    The odds of any one star coming up is low; three stars .... yeah. And there is no "grind path" available. Which means - as @borghive49 says - you are getting LFG requests for iLevels that might drop.
    Post edited by gervaise1 on
  • RedMachine72RedMachine72 Member UncommonPosts: 154
    Dang it................making me want to go back into Diablo 3 now.....
  • H4lucinationH4lucination Member UncommonPosts: 17
    off already, game blows
  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,666
    o k

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,554
    edited October 2016
    Hmm, well this RNG seems vastly preferable to the kind of RNG we've seen recently from eastern MMORPGs- where you spend a week grinding the same mobs for currency and then spend that currency attempting to upgrade something, only to watch it blow up.

    Not only is there zero variety in the "grind", but there are potentially horrendous outcomes.

    ArcheAge 3.0 introduced gems that prevent items from "blowing up" when used during upgrade process - so at least some Eastern MMOs are making changes.

    Now there is still a high chance of not upgrading at highest tiers - but at least you won't lose your main weapon you worked years for.
  • fearufearu Member UncommonPosts: 208
    edited October 2016
    To me the RNG-lucky dip daily grind that is end-game plus the spec-specific artifact grind isn't fun at all. And fuck garrison resources 2.0 yuck.

    There is too much solo crap in WoW for an MMO for my liking and the various game systems feel tacked-on as well. I like things to do but I still feel like I'm playing alone in my garrison just now there are others running around in it.

    I hate to be one of those cliché douchebags but I only lasted a month before canceling my sub this xpac which is something of a record for me. Oh well.

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