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Kinks in the Communication

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,758
    Archlyte said:
    Dakeru said:
    All you need to know about this company is the way Caspian keeps phrasing stuff to get vague meanings.

    This "$900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed” is a pretty good example.

    Well as I said in another thread - there is no AAA game but at least some people have AAA teeth now.
    At this point I think that the future of CoE is looking grim. It's hard to come back from a PR faux pas like this even with a great product. Not having a product in a reasonable time frame will not help. Repopulation is feeling very similar, with the original staff probably having had kids go off to college and what not with the game not yet released. 

    WoW may have actually killed the MMORPG genre back in 2003/4 but know one knew it yet. 
    They might be able to rebound if they had a better "front man" to address the community. But they don't.

    They have this guy who seems confrontational and we all know how people positively respond to confrontational people.
  • SeelinnikoiSeelinnikoi Member RarePosts: 1,356
    edited September 2016
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,150
    TimEisen said:
    Torval said:
    TimEisen said:
    I tried extremely hard to honestly present enough information for people to see the quotes and make their own conclusion. I did the back research and gave you the pieces I think are relevant to the topic for you to extrapolate from. Looking at those Kickstarter quotes it's hard not to think 900k was for the game. On the other hand the additional info existed, but it was certainly not easy to find.

    Personally I think it should have not just been on the KS but in the promo vid and featured on top of the KS in one of the main bullets. I dont understand how it wasn't.
    You did try and did a great job up until the conclusion that sort of excused them anyway.

    All the shoulda coulda woulda stuff doesn't really matter. What matters is that according to the Kickstarter rules the amount they ask for is the amount they need from supporters to complete what they promise to deliver to them.

    If I was a disgruntled backer I would contact them first for the refund. Then, failing that, I would contact Kickstarter and file a complaint about the project. Most people shouldn't be getting into this stuff anyway. I have a feeling that is why Brian Fargo and some associates started Fig - it's a better evolution to funding game projects. It allows for both accredited investors and hobbyist supporters. Pretty neat.
    Thanks for the feedback, everyone actually. I do consider it. I'm always looking to level up my wordsmithing skill.

    I just got a thing about Fig, did some looking into it, has its own banes as does KS. Frankly I think I'm nearing crowd funding max level. I noticed it when Sea of Thieves was announced and again with this Amazon game that might also be a MMO. I thought "oh good they aren't KS" lol. Full circle I guess.
    I think you asked great questions and I can even relate to your conclusion because I do that with a few projects. I've always done testing or backing new games in some way so I'll throw a few dollars at something now and again. For games it either needs to be an experienced team and/or something I really think would add to the gaming library.

    At this point they should just move on past this and keep plugging along to what it takes to succeed. They should have done it better so hopefully next time they do. Hopefully the backers have learned too. Spinning wheels on little mistakes won't get them to the finish line.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

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  • Hellmoon1500Hellmoon1500 Member UncommonPosts: 13

    Torval said:


    TimEisen said:

    I tried extremely hard to honestly present enough information for people to see the quotes and make their own conclusion. I did the back research and gave you the pieces I think are relevant to the topic for you to extrapolate from. Looking at those Kickstarter quotes it's hard not to think 900k was for the game. On the other hand the additional info existed, but it was certainly not easy to find.



    Personally I think it should have not just been on the KS but in the promo vid and featured on top of the KS in one of the main bullets. I dont understand how it wasn't.

    You did try and did a great job up until the conclusion that sort of excused them anyway.

    All the shoulda coulda woulda stuff doesn't really matter. What matters is that according to the Kickstarter rules the amount they ask for is the amount they need from supporters to complete what they promise to deliver to them.

    If I was a disgruntled backer I would contact them first for the refund. Then, failing that, I would contact Kickstarter and file a complaint about the project. Most people shouldn't be getting into this stuff anyway. I have a feeling that is why Brian Fargo and some associates started Fig - it's a better evolution to funding game projects. It allows for both accredited investors and hobbyist supporters. Pretty neat.



    900k is ALL they need from fans/backers, period. They have stated that in a recent interview regarding this whole matter (http://massivelyop.com/2016/09/28/interview-chronicles-of-elyrias-jeromy-walsh-on-post-kickstarter-funding/). It's not like they are Star Citizen and putting the game up a second time to crowdfund. They received a lot of feedback from people who couldn't back the game on kickstarter due to its payment restrictions and thus worked on putting out a store to accommodate fans that wanted to contribute and get kickstarter rewards as well as those who didn't learn about the game until after the kickstarter ended.

    The statement in question relates to SBS's mention of getting Series A funding from actual investors, like...people who want to make money from the game's development. Series A funding ONLY occurs when there is a product to invest in (think Pied Piper from Silicon Valley, if you are familiar with the show, they had to make a minimally viable product from their seed money they won in the TechCrunch Disrupt competition plus the $200k startup investment from an outside source before they were able to take bids in the Series A funding round).

    TV shows aside, I can see why some people feel hurt because they felt like this was a lack of information but in the grand scheme of things....it's really petty to drop your backing because SBS is looking for investors. SBS is still using KS money to make COE, if they had asked for $3 million on KS, they would have never got it and they didn't want to raise that from everyday-joes anyways...they want it from investors who need a Series A prototype. SBS is still making COE, their goals haven't changed one bit...but what people saw as kickstarter (A) then a finished game (C) path, it's more involved than that, but it's the same result: A. Kickstarter success, B. Create a minimally viable game and get additional funding from investors, C. Take the additional funding and create a finished product.
  • XingbairongXingbairong Member RarePosts: 927
    I don't know how people weren't aware that they would need more money. I remember clearly Timmy mentioning this during a dinner we had... anyone within 5 feet of us heard it load and clear... just because you weren't there it doesn't mean it wasn't said. Next time sleep outside the developers house, so that you can know such UNimportant information.

    This is the reason I don't support anymore kickstarts... because, 1st it takes YEARS to get to alpha testing, 2nd 90% of the time you get nothing for your money.
  • MoonChaserMoonChaser Member CommonPosts: 1
    Backers - or investors if you prefer that word - want to see the product to be successful in the long run. For people who may be unaware: CEO and founder of Soulbound Studios has invested a whole lot:
    Dedication, lots of private money, years of thoughts on design and raising a company from ground up. Not focusing on profit, but because he likes to play games just as much as all of us do, and as there is a need for innovation. As you can see, the goal aligns with the backers. Backers and developers want to see it happen.

    Now, while many backers were knowing or estimating the dimensions of the overall cost, some backers and non-backers seem to jump to false conclusions.

    Evidently SbS was aware of the scope of the project and talked about it on several occasions (there are more examples by the way). This means that the long term financing plan is also still in effect and there is absolutely no reason to assume that the partial unawareness of this plan would negatively affect the overall success of the project. The Kickstarter was successful and the remaining funds needed couldn't be cut regardless of the situation due to the nature of MMORPGs.

    So has the risk increased? Making an MMORPG is a big task in general and alot of factors contribute to it's success. Supporting it financially is a good way to improve on the odds. Pondering on how invested one is for a Kickstarter project is in no way constructive.
    When I spend money on a Kickstarter project, I never spend more than I can afford to loose or more than I think supporting the project for is good.
    That applies in particular to high tier pledges, and in those cases doing a minimum amount of research about the funding plan is to be expected. Yes: Nobody is too busy to drop a post on the official forums to ask about the plans. If there is an answer given within a reasonable amount of time: Great. If not: Move on. There is an active and friendly community ready to provide information about it. As backer one cannot ask for all the rights but none of the obligations.

    Kickstarter works because it enables new developer studios to create innovative games that vocal publishers wouldn't go about (without rip-off shops).

    Clearly there is a great interest in Chronicles of Elyria to bring to life from not only the community but from the developers in particular.
    Furthermore, looking at how costly and complex it would be to allow for refunds given the reward-system for community members (who help the game to become successful), as well as on how Kickstarter should work to provide a safe basis for developers, I don't see the merit of refunds:
    - It is inconsistent on the side of the backer who has decided to commit to a project that is currently moving forward
    - Implementing a refund system puts extra costs on the project and the funds raised by all the backers
    - It ultimately turns Kickstarter into a risky train to jump on for aspiring game studios with awesome ideas.

    If SbS would had not shared their intention on funding in places accessible to the public [There are many people who knew about the planning and assumed it to be common knowledge],
    if they had refused or ignored questions about funding plans altogether [It was addressed by the developers several times (most recently in the last update)] or
    if they had changed their design principles and vision for the game entirely after Kickstarter [The overall design process brought them even closer to the original vision]:
    - if they had very different plans and changed them due to greed [The way of funding in stages was set before KS and is being followed: Costs are inevitable in the genre]

    Then - and only then - I would start start voicing negative&constructive or in severe cases pessimistic comments on a game that can bring new interesting gaming experiences to the genre. Regardless of whether I'm invested or a bystander.

    Anything in this text you may perceive as aggressive is merely due to passionate opinions about Kickstaret and Chronicles of Elyria. Thanks.
  • notalltherenotallthere Member UncommonPosts: 7

    TimEisen said:

    Looking at those Kickstarter quotes it's hard not to think 900k was for the game. On the other hand the additional info existed, but it was certainly not easy to find.



    Personally I think it should have not just been on the KS but in the promo vid and featured on top of the KS in one of the main bullets. I dont understand how it wasn't.



    Really? I'm pretty sure I understand how it wasn't.

    The game's developers were saying that what they were seeking funding for was a viable game instead of a prototype because many people who would invest in a viable game would not invest in a prototype.

    From where I'm standing, it looks like they didn't feel they could get the money they wanted by presenting realistic goals, so they presented unrealistic ones instead. Kickstarter itself warns project creators to not do that for reasons that by now should be pretty obvious.





  • RobbgobbRobbgobb Member UncommonPosts: 674
    Most of my news for kickstarting a game comes from the page on Kickstarter or from e-mails. I have not looked at this game but does it state if want more information should be looking elsewhere? I still think it was one to get some backers to back that don't look elsewhere for information since it was clearly conveyed in places other than Kickstarter. I am glad I did not back now. More and more of what the industry is doing makes me want to wait for most games to be out and on discount before I touch them.
  • HolyAvengerOneHolyAvengerOne Member UncommonPosts: 691
    Nice Tim, but I think you forgot to quote your source... you basically rewrote the post I replied to you over here on MOP : http://fyre.it/Lsg3kSJY.4
  • emotaemota Member UncommonPosts: 413
    I truely sympathise with any backer of this nonsense, I hope you get your money back!
  • LethalityLethality Member UncommonPosts: 76
    Poor communication, and it almost feels intentional, that's my problem. I don't mind the additional risk and don't even care about losing my money... I'm trying to help someone do something they want to do for me. But this is more about their ignorance and apparently complete lack of awareness of the community pulse.
  • ThwaiteThwaite Member UncommonPosts: 83
    Ultimately. I don't care. I backed this one big and probably will add big again if they need it. This one is worth it.
  • RPGMASTERGAMERRPGMASTERGAMER Member UncommonPosts: 516
    edited September 2016

    Thwaite said:

    Ultimately. I don't care. I backed this one big and probably will add big again if they need it. This one is worth it.



    papers and dream but you should pick the one who sell them wisely

    some dream are fake while others are real, and not every dream seller can deliver them

    while your money gone no matter what happen
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,931
    They really should offer to give kickstarter people their money back if they choose. I think some folks thought the game could be completed based on the goal presented with no need to ask for additional funds. I know most of us know this was a pipe dream, but I'm not surprised many people fell for it.
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    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter

  • coolster50coolster50 Member UncommonPosts: 45
    Tiller said:
    They really should offer to give kickstarter people their money back if they choose. I think some folks thought the game could be completed based on the goal presented with no need to ask for additional funds. I know most of us know this was a pipe dream, but I'm not surprised many people fell for it.

     From what one of the Crowfall (another kickstarted mmo) devs said about their refund policy is that offering refunds screws with the budget of the game and can throw development out of whack. If Chronicles of Elyria is similar in that regard, then offering refunds will throw their budget and development out of whack.


    It probably would've worked out better for the CoE devs if they said that they were doing seed money AFTER they got the money, like the CF devs did when they got investor funds.


  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,323
    Tiller said:
    They really should offer to give kickstarter people their money back if they choose. I think some folks thought the game could be completed based on the goal presented with no need to ask for additional funds. I know most of us know this was a pipe dream, but I'm not surprised many people fell for it.

    Those poor misguided fools. KS is now BIG business and who needs a game to collect funds anyway?
  • toolaktoolak Member UncommonPosts: 154
    When I saw their vision of this game, then saw the buy able in game status, and then saw the 900k goal I almost fell out of my seat laughing.

    They say you should go with your gut reaction, and mine was snatch and grab. They used the uniqueness of the game to sucker Kickstarter funding for a "minimum viable complete game" when they really meant Kickstarter to fund their presentation to prospective investors. Anyone with money in this game needs to go to Kickstarter and file a claim. Trust me no corporate accountant will EVER let his company invest a dollar in this high hopes low expectation pile of crap.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,322
    Lol I was just about to say something about Pathfinder Online too...
  • AllerleirauhAllerleirauh Member UncommonPosts: 496
    edited October 2016
    If anyone is interested, they had a live Q&A. You can watch it here: https://gaming.youtube.com/watch?v=AIvOxJP0mw0
    Post edited by Allerleirauh on
    Currently Playing: Path of Exile

    "I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
  • TierlessTierless ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,377
    edited October 2016


    Nice Tim, but I think you forgot to quote your source... you basically rewrote the post I replied to you over here on MOP : http://fyre.it/Lsg3kSJY.4



    Nice work, couldnt have said it better myself! My column was due Wednesday and I didnt see your reply until just a few minutes ago. Contrary to what most people that stumbled into my work might think we are due at minimum half a day out for proof reading. I turn in 1.5 days out. Yes, shocking the version you see is the edited version, you can imagine how bad the original is! As I've done in the past I would have sited you if I did use it. I'd say if anythign this means we should probably be the tag team presidents of the world as we surely have the minds for it!
    But not all men seek rest and peace; some are born with the spirit of the storm in their blood, restless harbingers, knowing no other path.
  • TierlessTierless ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,377



    Tiller said:

    They really should offer to give kickstarter people their money back if they choose. I think some folks thought the game could be completed based on the goal presented with no need to ask for additional funds. I know most of us know this was a pipe dream, but I'm not surprised many people fell for it.


     From what one of the Crowfall (another kickstarted mmo) devs said about their refund policy is that offering refunds screws with the budget of the game and can throw development out of whack. If Chronicles of Elyria is similar in that regard, then offering refunds will throw their budget and development out of whack.


    It probably would've worked out better for the CoE devs if they said that they were doing seed money AFTER they got the money, like the CF devs did when they got investor funds.





    ACE did mention it but it certainly wasn't heavilly promoted. Same goes for the KS only being for the Dregs not the full game. It was on the KS and off the KS and they mentioned in a few places but they didn't make it a focal point. Not as poorly communicated as COE being a prototype but defintetly not something I'd think a casual KSer would know. I'd guess even now some CFers would be surprised to know they didn't fund the whole game with the KS.
    But not all men seek rest and peace; some are born with the spirit of the storm in their blood, restless harbingers, knowing no other path.
  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405

    Sovrath said:


    Archlyte said:


    Dakeru said:

    All you need to know about this company is the way Caspian keeps phrasing stuff to get vague meanings.

    This "$900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed” is a pretty good example.

    Well as I said in another thread - there is no AAA game but at least some people have AAA teeth now.


    At this point I think that the future of CoE is looking grim. It's hard to come back from a PR faux pas like this even with a great product. Not having a product in a reasonable time frame will not help. Repopulation is feeling very similar, with the original staff probably having had kids go off to college and what not with the game not yet released. 

    WoW may have actually killed the MMORPG genre back in 2003/4 but know one knew it yet. 


    They might be able to rebound if they had a better "front man" to address the community. But they don't.

    They have this guy who seems confrontational and we all know how people positively respond to confrontational people.



    I'm with you 100% on that. He comes across as petulant and self-righteous, even though I imagine it's not what he means to do. You play a big stakes game? Then utilize big stakes poker face and PR.
    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 623
    I am surprised something like this can even be an issue. KS is quite clear on these things (KS FAQs, "Kickstarter 101 - Basics"):

    "A project is a finite work with a clear goal"
    "The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project."

    There should be no maybes, "what we actually meant"s or misunderstandings. (note the "clear goal" part)
    If you are funding a prototype, the KS page should very visibly and clearly state "we are only funding a prototype."

    Anyway, hope for the backers that the devs pull a big fat rabbit out of the hat to lighten the mood.
  • pantaropantaro Member RarePosts: 514

    Sovrath said:


    Archlyte said:


    Dakeru said:

    All you need to know about this company is the way Caspian keeps phrasing stuff to get vague meanings.

    This "$900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed” is a pretty good example.

    Well as I said in another thread - there is no AAA game but at least some people have AAA teeth now.


    At this point I think that the future of CoE is looking grim. It's hard to come back from a PR faux pas like this even with a great product. Not having a product in a reasonable time frame will not help. Repopulation is feeling very similar, with the original staff probably having had kids go off to college and what not with the game not yet released. 

    WoW may have actually killed the MMORPG genre back in 2003/4 but know one knew it yet. 


    They might be able to rebound if they had a better "front man" to address the community. But they don't.

    They have this guy who seems confrontational and we all know how people positively respond to confrontational people.



    one of the big reasons i stepped away from their kickstarter i seen how he was speaking to people on these forums when they were critical of anything they did. imagine me getting treated like that then i'm supposed to give you my money ha! not gonna happen homie!
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,931
    Gaendric said:
    I am surprised something like this can even be an issue. KS is quite clear on these things (KS FAQs, "Kickstarter 101 - Basics"):

    "A project is a finite work with a clear goal"
    "The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project."

    There should be no maybes, "what we actually meant"s or misunderstandings. (note the "clear goal" part)
    If you are funding a prototype, the KS page should very visibly and clearly state "we are only funding a prototype."

    Anyway, hope for the backers that the devs pull a big fat rabbit out of the hat to lighten the mood.
    Naw it will go to court and this studio will be sued and the game will be canceled indefinitely; in the end forcing Kickstarter to change what they allow on Kickstarter.
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter

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