I don't know how people weren't aware that they would need more money. I remember clearly Timmy mentioning this during a dinner we had... anyone within 5 feet of us heard it load and clear... just because you weren't there it doesn't mean it wasn't said. Next time sleep outside the developers house, so that you can know such UNimportant information.
This is the reason I don't support anymore kickstarts... because, 1st it takes YEARS to get to alpha testing, 2nd 90% of the time you get nothing for your money.
Backers - or investors if you prefer that word - want to see the product to be successful in the long run. For people who may be unaware: CEO and founder of Soulbound Studios has invested a whole lot: Dedication, lots of private money, years of thoughts on design and raising a company from ground up. Not focusing on profit, but because he likes to play games just as much as all of us do, and as there is a need for innovation. As you can see, the goal aligns with the backers. Backers and developers want to see it happen.
Now, while many backers were knowing or estimating the dimensions of the overall cost, some backers and non-backers seem to jump to false conclusions.
Evidently SbS was aware of the scope of the project and talked about it on several occasions (there are more examples by the way). This means that the long term financing plan is also still in effect and there is absolutely no reason to assume that the partial unawareness of this plan would negatively affect the overall success of the project. The Kickstarter was successful and the remaining funds needed couldn't be cut regardless of the situation due to the nature of MMORPGs.
So has the risk increased? Making an MMORPG is a big task in general and alot of factors contribute to it's success. Supporting it financially is a good way to improve on the odds. Pondering on how invested one is for a Kickstarter project is in no way constructive. When I spend money on a Kickstarter project, I never spend more than I can afford to loose or more than I think supporting the project for is good. That applies in particular to high tier pledges, and in those cases doing a minimum amount of research about the funding plan is to be expected. Yes: Nobody is too busy to drop a post on the official forums to ask about the plans. If there is an answer given within a reasonable amount of time: Great. If not: Move on. There is an active and friendly community ready to provide information about it. As backer one cannot ask for all the rights but none of the obligations.
Kickstarter works because it enables new developer studios to create innovative games that vocal publishers wouldn't go about (without rip-off shops).
Clearly there is a great interest in Chronicles of Elyria to bring to life from not only the community but from the developers in particular. Furthermore, looking at how costly and complex it would be to allow for refunds given the reward-system for community members (who help the game to become successful), as well as on how Kickstarter should work to provide a safe basis for developers, I don't see the merit of refunds: - It is inconsistent on the side of the backer who has decided to commit to a project that is currently moving forward - Implementing a refund system puts extra costs on the project and the funds raised by all the backers - It ultimately turns Kickstarter into a risky train to jump on for aspiring game studios with awesome ideas.
If SbS would had not shared their intention on funding in places accessible to the public [There are many people who knew about the planning and assumed it to be common knowledge], if they had refused or ignored questions about funding plans altogether [It was addressed by the developers several times (most recently in the last update)] or if they had changed their design principles and vision for the game entirely after Kickstarter [The overall design process brought them even closer to the original vision]: - if they had very different plans and changed them due to greed [The way of funding in stages was set before KS and is being followed: Costs are inevitable in the genre]
Then - and only then - I would start start voicing negative&constructive or in severe cases pessimistic comments on a game that can bring new interesting gaming experiences to the genre. Regardless of whether I'm invested or a bystander.
Anything in this text you may perceive as aggressive is merely due to passionate opinions about Kickstaret and Chronicles of Elyria. Thanks.
Looking at those Kickstarter quotes it's hard not to think 900k was for the game. On the other hand the additional info existed, but it was certainly not easy to find.
Personally I think it should have not just been on the KS but in the promo vid and featured on top of the KS in one of the main bullets. I dont understand how it wasn't.
Really? I'm pretty sure I understand how it wasn't.
The game's developers were saying that what they were seeking funding for was a viable game instead of a prototype because many people who would invest in a viable game would not invest in a prototype.
From where I'm standing, it looks like they didn't feel they could get the money they wanted by presenting realistic goals, so they presented unrealistic ones instead. Kickstarter itself warns project creators to not do that for reasons that by now should be pretty obvious.
Most of my news for kickstarting a game comes from the page on Kickstarter or from e-mails. I have not looked at this game but does it state if want more information should be looking elsewhere? I still think it was one to get some backers to back that don't look elsewhere for information since it was clearly conveyed in places other than Kickstarter. I am glad I did not back now. More and more of what the industry is doing makes me want to wait for most games to be out and on discount before I touch them.
Poor communication, and it almost feels intentional, that's my problem. I don't mind the additional risk and don't even care about losing my money... I'm trying to help someone do something they want to do for me. But this is more about their ignorance and apparently complete lack of awareness of the community pulse.
They really should offer to give kickstarter people their money back if they choose. I think some folks thought the game could be completed based on the goal presented with no need to ask for additional funds. I know most of us know this was a pipe dream, but I'm not surprised many people fell for it.
They really should offer to give kickstarter people their money back if they choose. I think some folks thought the game could be completed based on the goal presented with no need to ask for additional funds. I know most of us know this was a pipe dream, but I'm not surprised many people fell for it.
From what one of the Crowfall (another kickstarted mmo) devs said about their refund policy is that offering refunds screws with the budget of the game and can throw development out of whack. If Chronicles of Elyria is similar in that regard, then offering refunds will throw their budget and development out of whack.
It probably would've worked out better for the CoE devs if they said that they were doing seed money AFTER they got the money, like the CF devs did when they got investor funds.
They really should offer to give kickstarter people their money back if they choose. I think some folks thought the game could be completed based on the goal presented with no need to ask for additional funds. I know most of us know this was a pipe dream, but I'm not surprised many people fell for it.
Those poor misguided fools. KS is now BIG business and who needs a game to collect funds anyway?
When I saw their vision of this game, then saw the buy able in game status, and then saw the 900k goal I almost fell out of my seat laughing.
They say you should go with your gut reaction, and mine was snatch and grab. They used the uniqueness of the game to sucker Kickstarter funding for a "minimum viable complete game" when they really meant Kickstarter to fund their presentation to prospective investors. Anyone with money in this game needs to go to Kickstarter and file a claim. Trust me no corporate accountant will EVER let his company invest a dollar in this high hopes low expectation pile of crap.
"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
All you need to know about this company is the way Caspian keeps phrasing stuff to get vague meanings.
This "$900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed” is a pretty good example.
Well as I said in another thread - there is no AAA game but at least some people have AAA teeth now.
At this point I think that the future of CoE is looking grim. It's hard to come back from a PR faux pas like this even with a great product. Not having a product in a reasonable time frame will not help. Repopulation is feeling very similar, with the original staff probably having had kids go off to college and what not with the game not yet released.
WoW may have actually killed the MMORPG genre back in 2003/4 but know one knew it yet.
They might be able to rebound if they had a better "front man" to address the community. But they don't.
They have this guy who seems confrontational and we all know how people positively respond to confrontational people.
I'm with you 100% on that. He comes across as petulant and self-righteous, even though I imagine it's not what he means to do. You play a big stakes game? Then utilize big stakes poker face and PR.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
I am surprised something like this can even be an issue. KS is quite clear on these things (KS FAQs, "Kickstarter 101 - Basics"):
"A project is a finite work with a clear goal" "The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project."
There should be no maybes, "what we actually meant"s or misunderstandings. (note the "clear goal" part) If you are funding a prototype, the KS page should very visibly and clearly state "we are only funding a prototype."
Anyway, hope for the backers that the devs pull a big fat rabbit out of the hat to lighten the mood.
All you need to know about this company is the way Caspian keeps phrasing stuff to get vague meanings.
This "$900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed” is a pretty good example.
Well as I said in another thread - there is no AAA game but at least some people have AAA teeth now.
At this point I think that the future of CoE is looking grim. It's hard to come back from a PR faux pas like this even with a great product. Not having a product in a reasonable time frame will not help. Repopulation is feeling very similar, with the original staff probably having had kids go off to college and what not with the game not yet released.
WoW may have actually killed the MMORPG genre back in 2003/4 but know one knew it yet.
They might be able to rebound if they had a better "front man" to address the community. But they don't.
They have this guy who seems confrontational and we all know how people positively respond to confrontational people.
one of the big reasons i stepped away from their kickstarter i seen how he was speaking to people on these forums when they were critical of anything they did. imagine me getting treated like that then i'm supposed to give you my money ha! not gonna happen homie!
I am surprised something like this can even be an issue. KS is quite clear on these things (KS FAQs, "Kickstarter 101 - Basics"):
"A project is a finite work with a clear goal" "The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project."
There should be no maybes, "what we actually meant"s or misunderstandings. (note the "clear goal" part) If you are funding a prototype, the KS page should very visibly and clearly state "we are only funding a prototype."
Anyway, hope for the backers that the devs pull a big fat rabbit out of the hat to lighten the mood.
Naw it will go to court and this studio will be sued and the game will be canceled indefinitely; in the end forcing Kickstarter to change what they allow on Kickstarter.
All you need to know about this company is the way Caspian keeps phrasing stuff to get vague meanings.
This "$900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed” is a pretty good example.
Well as I said in another thread - there is no AAA game but at least some people have AAA teeth now.
At this point I think that the future of CoE is looking grim. It's hard to come back from a PR faux pas like this even with a great product. Not having a product in a reasonable time frame will not help. Repopulation is feeling very similar, with the original staff probably having had kids go off to college and what not with the game not yet released.
WoW may have actually killed the MMORPG genre back in 2003/4 but know one knew it yet.
They might be able to rebound if they had a better "front man" to address the community. But they don't.
They have this guy who seems confrontational and we all know how people positively respond to confrontational people.
one of the big reasons i stepped away from their kickstarter i seen how he was speaking to people on these forums when they were critical of anything they did. imagine me getting treated like that then i'm supposed to give you my money ha! not gonna happen homie!
Thing is, this way of them responding to the community has always been like that though. Especially when they were having problems with their site and shop. "We can't get anything done with people being so negative" or something like that. I mean, you're (referring to SBS) a company for crying out loud or trying to be at least. Offering a professional response, such as "due to technical issues, we have to delay these features" etc. If they are always going to react this way professionally and not even communicate properly in the proper places, how can they handle managing a long term project like an mmorpg post launch? Its just not possible. The future of this title is too grim even if it miraculously gets released.
MoonChaser said: New Guy posted a lot of stuff... SNIP
1. Welcome to MMORPG.COM hope you stick around long after this game and become part of the community
2. Has the actual risk increased? No... BUT...
If people were not aware that in addition to the 900k they needed to raise at least 2-3 Million more then the risk level they used to judge their pledge was not correct. And since this was not included on the Kickstarter page, and since they even talked about using money over 900k on stretch goals, that is 100% on the company and 0% on the backers. Nobody should have to comb forums for random posts by a developer for something like that.
If I get in a taxi and the driver is drunk but I don't know, telling me he's drunk does not change my actual risk of an accident, but if I know he's drunk BEFORE I get in the car with him I can make an informed choice that the risk level is too high for me.
So the "perceived risk" argument they keep making is utterly silly.
Again, if they really feel everyone knew this then there would be no harm in reopening refunds for a 2 week period.
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
MoonChaser said: New Guy posted a lot of stuff... SNIP
1. Welcome to MMORPG.COM hope you stick around long after this game and become part of the community
2. Has the actual risk increased? No... BUT...
If people were not aware that in addition to the 900k they needed to raise at least 2-3 Million more then the risk level they used to judge their pledge was not correct. And since this was not included on the Kickstarter page, and since they even talked about using money over 900k on stretch goals, that is 100% on the company and 0% on the backers. Nobody should have to comb forums for random posts by a developer for something like that.
If I get in a taxi and the driver is drunk but I don't know, telling me he's drunk does not change my actual risk of an accident, but if I know he's drunk BEFORE I get in the car with him I can make an informed choice that the risk level is too high for me.
So the "perceived risk" argument they keep making is utterly silly.
Again, if they really feel everyone knew this then there would be no harm in reopening refunds for a 2 week period.
I'll try and summarize their refund policy on their KS page updated a few days ago. Pretty much they made a system that they dont know how to properly manage and so they dont want to issue refunds due to having to figure out the said system they made.....
They can't configure a proper backer reward/refund system but they can make an mmorpg. In the event that the game doesn't get made there's always these reassuring words:
"Finally, 'No refund' brings with it a stigma of additional risk. But of
course, we'll do just as our competitors are doing. In the event that
Soulbound Studios is, for some reason, unable to complete development
due to a lack of resources, we'll make available our balance sheet so
backers can see how the money was spent."
i cant believe people are placing their hopes into this game. all games are sugar and honey before release. have you learned nothing in all these years? you really thougt some millions are enough for an mmo?
Halfway already. Bunch of senseless,uninvolved, naysaying about a game lots of people would be afraid to play. Yes games fail, some succeed. Not a month in development people salivate to start grinding gears and hype-anti-hype.
Comments
This is the reason I don't support anymore kickstarts... because, 1st it takes YEARS to get to alpha testing, 2nd 90% of the time you get nothing for your money.
Dedication, lots of private money, years of thoughts on design and raising a company from ground up. Not focusing on profit, but because he likes to play games just as much as all of us do, and as there is a need for innovation. As you can see, the goal aligns with the backers. Backers and developers want to see it happen.
Now, while many backers were knowing or estimating the dimensions of the overall cost, some backers and non-backers seem to jump to false conclusions.
Evidently SbS was aware of the scope of the project and talked about it on several occasions (there are more examples by the way). This means that the long term financing plan is also still in effect and there is absolutely no reason to assume that the partial unawareness of this plan would negatively affect the overall success of the project. The Kickstarter was successful and the remaining funds needed couldn't be cut regardless of the situation due to the nature of MMORPGs.
So has the risk increased? Making an MMORPG is a big task in general and alot of factors contribute to it's success. Supporting it financially is a good way to improve on the odds. Pondering on how invested one is for a Kickstarter project is in no way constructive.
When I spend money on a Kickstarter project, I never spend more than I can afford to loose or more than I think supporting the project for is good.
That applies in particular to high tier pledges, and in those cases doing a minimum amount of research about the funding plan is to be expected. Yes: Nobody is too busy to drop a post on the official forums to ask about the plans. If there is an answer given within a reasonable amount of time: Great. If not: Move on. There is an active and friendly community ready to provide information about it. As backer one cannot ask for all the rights but none of the obligations.
Kickstarter works because it enables new developer studios to create innovative games that vocal publishers wouldn't go about (without rip-off shops).
Clearly there is a great interest in Chronicles of Elyria to bring to life from not only the community but from the developers in particular.
Furthermore, looking at how costly and complex it would be to allow for refunds given the reward-system for community members (who help the game to become successful), as well as on how Kickstarter should work to provide a safe basis for developers, I don't see the merit of refunds:
- It is inconsistent on the side of the backer who has decided to commit to a project that is currently moving forward
- Implementing a refund system puts extra costs on the project and the funds raised by all the backers
- It ultimately turns Kickstarter into a risky train to jump on for aspiring game studios with awesome ideas.
If SbS would had not shared their intention on funding in places accessible to the public [There are many people who knew about the planning and assumed it to be common knowledge],
if they had refused or ignored questions about funding plans altogether [It was addressed by the developers several times (most recently in the last update)] or
if they had changed their design principles and vision for the game entirely after Kickstarter [The overall design process brought them even closer to the original vision]:
- if they had very different plans and changed them due to greed [The way of funding in stages was set before KS and is being followed: Costs are inevitable in the genre]
Then - and only then - I would start start voicing negative&constructive or in severe cases pessimistic comments on a game that can bring new interesting gaming experiences to the genre. Regardless of whether I'm invested or a bystander.
Anything in this text you may perceive as aggressive is merely due to passionate opinions about Kickstaret and Chronicles of Elyria. Thanks.
Really? I'm pretty sure I understand how it wasn't.
The game's developers were saying that what they were seeking funding for was a viable game instead of a prototype because many people who would invest in a viable game would not invest in a prototype.
From where I'm standing, it looks like they didn't feel they could get the money they wanted by presenting realistic goals, so they presented unrealistic ones instead. Kickstarter itself warns project creators to not do that for reasons that by now should be pretty obvious.
papers and dream but you should pick the one who sell them wisely
some dream are fake while others are real, and not every dream seller can deliver them
while your money gone no matter what happen
From what one of the Crowfall (another kickstarted mmo) devs said about their refund policy is that offering refunds screws with the budget of the game and can throw development out of whack. If Chronicles of Elyria is similar in that regard, then offering refunds will throw their budget and development out of whack.
It probably would've worked out better for the CoE devs if they said that they were doing seed money AFTER they got the money, like the CF devs did when they got investor funds.
Those poor misguided fools. KS is now BIG business and who needs a game to collect funds anyway?
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
They say you should go with your gut reaction, and mine was snatch and grab. They used the uniqueness of the game to sucker Kickstarter funding for a "minimum viable complete game" when they really meant Kickstarter to fund their presentation to prospective investors. Anyone with money in this game needs to go to Kickstarter and file a claim. Trust me no corporate accountant will EVER let his company invest a dollar in this high hopes low expectation pile of crap.
I'm with you 100% on that. He comes across as petulant and self-righteous, even though I imagine it's not what he means to do. You play a big stakes game? Then utilize big stakes poker face and PR.
"A project is a finite work with a clear goal"
"The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project."
There should be no maybes, "what we actually meant"s or misunderstandings. (note the "clear goal" part)
If you are funding a prototype, the KS page should very visibly and clearly state "we are only funding a prototype."
Anyway, hope for the backers that the devs pull a big fat rabbit out of the hat to lighten the mood.
one of the big reasons i stepped away from their kickstarter i seen how he was speaking to people on these forums when they were critical of anything they did. imagine me getting treated like that then i'm supposed to give you my money ha! not gonna happen homie!
2. Has the actual risk increased? No... BUT...
If people were not aware that in addition to the 900k they needed to raise at least 2-3 Million more then the risk level they used to judge their pledge was not correct. And since this was not included on the Kickstarter page, and since they even talked about using money over 900k on stretch goals, that is 100% on the company and 0% on the backers. Nobody should have to comb forums for random posts by a developer for something like that.
If I get in a taxi and the driver is drunk but I don't know, telling me he's drunk does not change my actual risk of an accident, but if I know he's drunk BEFORE I get in the car with him I can make an informed choice that the risk level is too high for me.
So the "perceived risk" argument they keep making is utterly silly.
Again, if they really feel everyone knew this then there would be no harm in reopening refunds for a 2 week period.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/soulboundstudios/chronicles-of-elyria-epic-story-mmorpg-with-aging/posts/1691859?ref=backer_project_update
They can't configure a proper backer reward/refund system but they can make an mmorpg. In the event that the game doesn't get made there's always these reassuring words:
"Finally, 'No refund' brings with it a stigma of additional risk. But of course, we'll do just as our competitors are doing. In the event that Soulbound Studios is, for some reason, unable to complete development due to a lack of resources, we'll make available our balance sheet so backers can see how the money was spent."