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Niantic Going to Court in Holland For Protected Beach Access

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Comments

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,325
    This is another interesting location for a Pokemon location in my neck of the woods.


    http://globalnews.ca/news/2846577/pokemon-go-gym-outside-hells-angels-clubhouse-in-coquitlam-draws-warning/

    Of course Niantic bare no responsibility for doing no homework and choosing a totally stupid location.

    Stock holder returns are whats most important.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • MujonaMujona Member UncommonPosts: 108
    There is a reasonable level of responsibility that a company as the creator and distributor of a product must take, as there is a responsibility on the users of the product to be responsible and not abuse said product.

    The issue with something like Pokemon Go is that if players can not be seen to display enough responsibility with a product then the product either has to be withheld from those individuals, or the product itself has to adapt to overcome those issues.

    Question then becomes how much effort should be put into idiot-proofing something before the onus rests squarely on the user.
  • TheFunky1TheFunky1 Member UncommonPosts: 54
    edited September 2016
    Oh come on.  How do we know this is a dangerous place?  Is it in the middle of an intersection?  A trainyard?  Is there an active volcano next to the gym?  Look, dens of scum and thievery and hives of villanious activity exist everywhere but they usually don't hang signs out front.  It is a friggen motorcycle club.  In some neighborhoods that may be a safer spot than most.

    What happens if a location end's up being near a house that turns into a crack house?  What if people live in high crime neighborhoods, are they still allowed to play?  What do we do when when an over zealous property owner takes a shot at someone trespassing (or robbing the place) and says it was because the game led them there.

    Where do we give up with common sense and education and let darwinism take its toll.

    Poor little Timmy didn't realize the interstate was a bad place to practice his bike riding even though it was nice and flat.

    Son, don't ever walk by that tattoo parlor because evil patrons it.
  • TheFunky1TheFunky1 Member UncommonPosts: 54
    donger56 said:
    The dunes are our only protection against the northsea. We live below sea level. My house is 3.5 meter below sealevel. That's why it is protected.
    This sounds like a fundamental civil engineering faux pas.  I feel like linking Katrina videos here.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,325
    TheFunky1 said:
    Oh come on.  How do we know this is a dangerous place?  Is it in the middle of an intersection?  A trainyard?  Is there an active volcano next to the gym?  Look, dens of scum and thievery and hives of villanious activity exist everywhere but they usually don't hang signs out front.  It is a friggen motorcycle club.

    Where do we give up with common sense and education and let darwinism take its toll.

    Poor little Timmy didn't realize the interstate was a bad place to practice his bike riding even though it was nice and flat.

    Son, don't ever walk by that tattoo parlor because evil patrons it.
    Do you have any cases of drive by shootings around where you live?

    We have them around Metro Vancouver and a couple of them have involved Hell Angels as victims.

    The point is it's not a very bright place for a Pokemon. And I think Niantic is making more than enough money to do some research and maybe change a few locations if need be.

    Is that really too much to ask?

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • MagikarpsGhostMagikarpsGhost Member RarePosts: 689
    honestly i do not blame the company, this "game" has simply put stupid people in to the spot light for those who have been oblivious to finally see.

    free 7 day sub and unlocks for swtor new accounts and 90+ day inactive subs click here to get it!

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,545
    Torval said:
    laserit said:
    Torval said:
    laserit said:
    The company defiantly has to take some responsibility here. Not responding is pretty fucking rude and plain "wrong" I hope a Dutch Judge hammers them.
    Why? Why does the company have to take responsibility. Let's look at the reality here - the Pokemon aren't really there. People are using software in a manner that goes against local laws. The game even warns you at the start not to do that.

    This is just an excuse for another European Union country/gov't entity/municipality to try and milk a private business instead of holding the offender liable. There's no money in holding the offender liable, but a big internet company. Ka-ching! If The Hague was really smart they would find a way to tie Microsoft and Google antitrust lawsuits in there. Oh, and the phone maker. They're responsible too!
    Isn't the company virtually placing them there? They have no control? The thing that I find most disturbing is that they are ignoring the matter. Not even willing to talk about it.

    fuck them 
    What is there to talk about? I already explained that at the beginning of the program there is a warning not to violate the privacy of others or enter unwelcome areas. If people can't obey the laws then that's on them. I've already cited several examples of how software and items could be used to violate the same thing.

    If the purpose and intent of the software was exclusively to violate privacy then I would agree with you. It's not. It's how people use the software.
    I admit I'm totally ignorant and have never played (or wanted to play) Pokemon Go but doesn't the game decide where to spawn them and where not to or is that totally up to the user?

    The users are definitely responsible but if the game is directing you (or at least not discouraging you) to go certain places where you shouldn't go I can see some responsibility there as well.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • MujonaMujona Member UncommonPosts: 108
    Unfortunately it's not just dumb people that have suffered for some actions of users or that users have suffered at the hands of others. As laserit pointed out some places are just not that safe to be out and about because of what it functionally an unrelated activity going on there.

    It matters because while someone can be entirely within their own legal rights with their actions, they can still find themselves in harm's way. There's only so much anyone can do about that unfortunately because the root cause for such situations isn't the game itself, but an outside party/influence. Under such a situation there isn't much to do than either a) rely on individual discretion or b) enforce some level of limitation in the game to reduce the potential from third party interference.
  • LoveRemovalMachineLoveRemovalMachine Member UncommonPosts: 213
    edited September 2016
    TheFunky1 said:
    donger56 said:
    The dunes are our only protection against the northsea. We live below sea level. My house is 3.5 meter below sealevel. That's why it is protected.
    This sounds like a fundamental civil engineering faux pas.  I feel like linking Katrina videos here.
    It sounds like you know nothing about our country and the engineering that was, is done and will be done.
    Our country is fighting the sea for hundreds of years.


    Granted it went wrong in 1953 due to a combination of a high spring tide and a severe European windstorm over the North Sea caused a storm tide.

    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_flood_of_1953

    Our country learned from that and made the delta works which was engineering at top level.
    And I quote from the source:
    "Along with the Zuiderzee works, Delta Works have been declared one of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World by the American Society of Civil Engineers."

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Works

    We also built the Afsluitdijk, constructed between 1927 and 1932.

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsluitdijk

    Another interesting thing is Holland's flood control and without dikes, this part of the Netherlands would be flooded:



    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_control_in_the_Netherlands

    We are always in a race what our intelligence can do for us and what our intelligence does to us.

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,796
    TheFunky1 said:
    donger56 said:
    The dunes are our only protection against the northsea. We live below sea level. My house is 3.5 meter below sealevel. That's why it is protected.
    This sounds like a fundamental civil engineering faux pas.  I feel like linking Katrina videos here.
    It sounds like you know nothing about our country and the engineering that was, is done and will be done.
    Our country is fighting the sea for hundreds of years.


    Granted it went wrong in 1953 due to a combination of a high spring tide and a severe European windstorm over the North Sea caused a storm tide.

    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_flood_of_1953

    Our country learned from that and made the delta works which was engineering at top level.
    And I quote from the source:
    "Along with the Zuiderzee works, Delta Works have been declared one of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World by the American Society of Civil Engineers."

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Works

    We also built the Afsluitdijk, constructed between 1927 and 1932.

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsluitdijk

    Another interesting thing is Holland's flood control and without dikes, this part of the Netherlands would be flooded:



    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_control_in_the_Netherlands

    I first heard about the changes the Dutch did to the environment in Dutch culture class.
    I was amazed by this ambitious project that happened so long ago.

    It's unbelievable that this thread turned from:
    'Greedy company refuses to answer the city officials when asked to obey the law'

    To:
    'The Dutch are at fault for being shitty engineers'

    WTF!
    Harbinger of Fools
  • TheFunky1TheFunky1 Member UncommonPosts: 54
    Interesting wiki article.  I thought it kind of funny it ended with this quote "Also, that afterwards the Dutch did not have serious discussions of why this preventable disaster occurred and as a nation tended to ignore its social and psychological impacts."

    The reason it entered the forum, if you missed it, was that someone said they were below sea level yet right next to it.  It has to do with people becoming comfortable with problems that they have grown accustomed to in their environment.   The same way people live in a city filled with many things that can bring their life to an abrupt end but tend to focus on the newest thing and not necessarily the most dangerous.
  • TheFunky1TheFunky1 Member UncommonPosts: 54
    edited September 2016
    I hate quoting people who quote people as it tends to make a rather large and redundant wall of text, but to respond to your 

    It's unbelievable that this thread turned from:
    'Greedy company refuses to answer the city officials when asked to obey the law'

    The company did not break the law.  Users did.
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,796
    TheFunky1 said:
    I hate quoting people who quote people as it tends to make a rather large and redundant wall of text, but to respond to your 

    It's unbelievable that this thread turned from:
    'Greedy company refuses to answer the city officials when asked to obey the law'

    The company did not break the law.  Users did.
    The company is tempting kids to break the law.
    Harbinger of Fools
  • AryanRoAryanRo Member UncommonPosts: 48

    Nanfoodle said:

    Funny how people pass by logic when it comes to this game. Places they would not go, they go. Things they would not do, they do. Not sure how the game is at fault here but maybe I dont understand the law here. My fav so far is the guy playing P-GO driving and sideswiped a cop car.




    Why is the game company or the game fault.. cause prior to game release there was no need or the protected areas would not have been invasive or the invasions issues would be lesser then what is upto now..

    People like to use guns as examples.. why would a gun company be at fault for a crime.. when the gun itself provide no security features or mechanism preventing the gun from firing was damage or faulty. It would be the companies fault for providing an unsafe product..

    Some here take this issue veriy lightly and disregard that all this issue incremented to a hell degree when the game came out.. Who does the game belong to.. who is profiting from the game.. Niantic Labs so they are held accountable for any improper actions of whoever plays the game.. Regardless of who they are servicing. They are providing a service that is becoming unsafe for everyone else.
    Is the same deal wihen MP3 distributors even though RIAA when after some bystandards they could not go after the world so they went after the distributors like morpheus, bearshare, etc...

    Niantic should have done a better job before revealing this game as they did.. The should have made capturing pokemon to specific park zones rather then what is now.. the only one to blame for all this mess is Niantic Labs.. Stop making excuses for them or thinking they should not be held accountable.. cause bottom line they are.. is their service aka game..
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 8,768
    edited October 2016

    Vrika said:


    Kyleran said:


    laserit said:


    Nanfoodle said:


    laserit said:


    Nanfoodle said:


    laserit said:

    The company defiantly has to take some responsibility here. Not responding is pretty fucking rude and plain "wrong" I hope a Dutch Judge hammers them.


    I think it would be a bad precedent to set. If someone makes a program and people using it in ways that break the laws, the software creator is to blame even in part. That could stop a lot of awesome programs from being created. If I stab you, am I 100% to blame? Someone did make that knife for me.


    Its not about that.

    Its about cooperation. If an authority is telling you that your unintentionally causing damage and you don't even have respect enough to even reply?

    Who the heck do some of these companies and corporations think they are these days?

    I hope the Judge Hammers them 


    So now you can sue companies if they dont respond to you? So you should be required by law to answer every phone call, email and snail mail sent to you? Again, I see nothing but holes. 


    So if your causing damage, environmental or other. Not replying gets you off any hook. Just plug your ears and go nananana absolves you of any responsibility? 

    I'm sure the authorities in question have made more than a single attempt to contact the company.  


    I'm not sure those "authorities" you mention have the authority to make such a request.

    Just to be very clear, the company and its product cause no harm when used responsibly, much like alchohol, firearms or dune buggys.

    If someone is using the product incorrectly, they are solely to blame, no one else.


    There are plenty of laws about manufacturing and sales of alcohol, firearms and dune buggys.

    How about trying to find an example product that is not regulated in any way?



    Not in the context of what you quoted and you know it lol
  • TheFunky1TheFunky1 Member UncommonPosts: 54
    It was illegal to distribute the copyrighted material so they went after the distributors.

    Ok, time for internet sarcasm.

    Knife makers make people stab people irl.  They are so readily available and sharp!

    Convertible car manufacturers make people steal cars.  Never was it so easy.

    Produce stands lead people to steal fruit. It's just right there next to the street.

    Surfboard makers are responsible for drowning and shark attacks.  People never wanted to be that far out in the surf before.

    GPS makes people drive into walls.  But it told me to turn left!

    Video Games can be played on phones while driving.  Its their fault I wrecked!

    People break the law and blame someone other than themselves.  Oh wait this isn't sarcasm.

    It is not a total surprise that a company so big is being sued for something that They Did Not Do.  If a Pokemon Go site is located in the ocean it is up to the user to either ignore it or find a way to get it.  If they drown, are they not complete idiots or at the least unfortunate and a victim of their own actions?
  • Veexer_NuiVeexer_Nui Member UncommonPosts: 206
    Niantec will easily win. The same way Google will win for having google maps. Just because it's there it doesn't mean people should ignore their surroundings.

    Archeage EU - Nui

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,796
    Niantec will easily win. The same way Google will win for having google maps. Just because it's there it doesn't mean people should ignore their surroundings.
    No Niantic will not win.
    I remember they said you only need to contact them to remove certain areas as play fields.

    They completely ignored any attempt to have the zone removed or at least limited.
    That's the part where they busted themselves.
    Harbinger of Fools
  • Erinak1Erinak1 Member UncommonPosts: 175
    You guys make such rediculous arguents. "If I bought a knife and stab someone would it be the companies fault?" Of course not. They are not influencing your actions in the slightest. Had they not made the knife and you wanted to stab someone you'd find something else. The same cannot be said for pokemon go. If the game didn't place pokemon there, nobody would have a reason to tresspass... the game is rewarding people for breaking laws. That said, I think it is up to a country to enforce its laws. The whole idea of a pokemon curfew is lunacy and would set a really bad precedence.
  • LoveRemovalMachineLoveRemovalMachine Member UncommonPosts: 213
    edited October 2016
    Niantec will easily win. The same way Google will win for having google maps. Just because it's there it doesn't mean people should ignore their surroundings.
    No, you are plain wrong, these dunes are protected by several laws by the European Union and it is called Natura 2000 and is a network of nature protection areas in the territory of the European Union.
    We are always in a race what our intelligence can do for us and what our intelligence does to us.

  • TheFunky1TheFunky1 Member UncommonPosts: 54
    edited October 2016
    Just to be clear here, I totally think Niantic should remove or move locations that get a number of complaints.  This leads to people gaming the system for their own benefit but that is just a necessary evil.

    I, however, do not think they should be financially liable if people don't like where they put the locations.

    You can't tell me no one has ever trespassed at that point or walked by that house before pokemon go came around so please don't argue that it is all a games fault that people suddenly went to that location and decided to break the law.  It ends up sounding like a player who has one in a bad spot near them and they are throwing a fit because they can't get it.
  • LoveRemovalMachineLoveRemovalMachine Member UncommonPosts: 213
    edited October 2016
    (The source is dutch, I translated the first part.)

    "Niantic has apologized to the municipality in preparation for the instituted summary proceedings and promised to remove all Pokémon from the nature reserve Westduinpark before Tuesday, October 11th, 2016, 09 am.
    In addition, Niantic has indicated to look for technical possibilities to turn off the Pokémon at night. Niantic has also contacted ProRail about Pokémon on the railways."

    Source: http://www.denhaag.nl/home/bewoners/actueel/pers/to/Pokemonontwikkelaar-Niantic-voldoet-aan-eis-gemeente-Den-Haag.htm
    We are always in a race what our intelligence can do for us and what our intelligence does to us.

  • barasawabarasawa Member UncommonPosts: 613

    Dakeru said:


    Nanfoodle said:


    Dakeru said:

    Not sure why the players are getting the blame now.
    The city officials didn't want a full ban, just more restrictions - the company kept on ignoring them.

    How else should the city react?


    Ticketing the people playing outside city bylaws. If there is a no skateboarding in the park bylaw and people break it, who gets in trouble? The guy using the skateboard or the guy who made the skateboard. Seems to me it would be the user. 


    Ticketing yeah but then they have to hire people to permanently guard the area.

    Contacting the company to ask for minor changes seems the most reasonable approach.



    Odds are pretty good their backend can't even handle that kind of request in the first place. It's probably a remove or leave, but that's about it. To have an exclusion schedule is actually a whole lot of processing and extra data fields it most likely doesn't have, and might choke on if they tried to install it. At the very least, they'd have to take the thing offline to update the entire world database and test it sufficiently before putting it all back online. Unless peoples lives are at risk, there's no company that's going to do all that without a legal requirement.

    Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  • barasawabarasawa Member UncommonPosts: 613

    laserit said:


    Kyleran said:


    laserit said:


    Nanfoodle said:


    laserit said:


    Nanfoodle said:


    laserit said:

    The company defiantly has to take some responsibility here. Not responding is pretty fucking rude and plain "wrong" I hope a Dutch Judge hammers them.


    I think it would be a bad precedent to set. If someone makes a program and people using it in ways that break the laws, the software creator is to blame even in part. That could stop a lot of awesome programs from being created. If I stab you, am I 100% to blame? Someone did make that knife for me.


    Its not about that.

    Its about cooperation. If an authority is telling you that your unintentionally causing damage and you don't even have respect enough to even reply?

    Who the heck do some of these companies and corporations think they are these days?

    I hope the Judge Hammers them 


    So now you can sue companies if they dont respond to you? So you should be required by law to answer every phone call, email and snail mail sent to you? Again, I see nothing but holes. 


    So if your causing damage, environmental or other. Not replying gets you off any hook. Just plug your ears and go nananana absolves you of any responsibility? 

    I'm sure the authorities in question have made more than a single attempt to contact the company.  


    I'm not sure those "authorities" you mention have the authority to make such a request.


    What a sad day that would be. When a foreign corporation can tell a government to go fuck themselves over their own local environment.

    Stockholders should be careful about what they wish for.

    This matters a lot for for the generations that come after me.



    What environment? The pokemon don't exist and are only visible on your device. The pokemon have 0 environmental impact.
    Now the pokemon players on the other hand, they might be breaking the law, and trashing places, but that's their own choice, fault, and responsibility.
    If you can't trust your own people to not do stupid things with a smartphone game, why in the hell did you let them have smartphones in the first place!?!

    Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  • barasawabarasawa Member UncommonPosts: 613
    It's hilarious how dense people are about culpability. 

    Every single person who does the whole "it's not the companies fault" speech deserves to have random stampedes of cows and live stock led across and through their property. You give those cows a good talking to, not the wrangler.
    Cows have no sense of private property, or responsibilities, and a stampede can't be led, it's a stampede! The best you can do is try to steer it. (puns allowed) 

    Besides, it's more like the herd stampedes across your property, and you want to take the groundskeeper to court because the cows were looking for grass, and he planted it all over the county including your property. 

    Yes, it does seem kind of silly when bring the examples to a closer relationship to the real issue, doesn't it

    Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

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