Kinks in the Communication

SBFord · September 2016

Kinks in the Communication

“We've been very transparent from the beginning that $900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed.” This week our own Timothy Eisen goes back to the beginning to see if that claim from Soulbound Studios holds up.

Read the full story here

RPGMASTERGAMER · September 2016

OP do they pay you for be biased like that ?? we only need 900k ''from kickstarter'' to create the games... hohohoho guys we told that only that we need for create the games ''FROM KICKSTARTER'' we are not liar trust us now we ask we need 3 millions ''from now'' to keep promise the games, but ''from now'' maybe that not enough finish the games we will ask for more, until no one give us money scam 101 lol fuck them what a bunch of scammer who use twist words now : “We've been very transparent from the beginning that $900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed.”

LOL someone please sue them, they are againts the rules of kickstarter too
they started use the terms : minimally viable game MINIMALLY viable features games ... in 6 years ( honestly im thinking nothing will ever releases ) they will not get the 3 millions more ( i hope peoples are not that stupid but peoples prove me wrong each times... ) im thinking that just a pure scams at this points

winghaven1 · September 2016

RPGMASTERGAMER said:

lol fuck them what a bunch of scammer who use twist words now : “We've been very transparent from the beginning that $900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed.”

LOL someone please sue them, they are againts the rules of kickstarter too

they started use the terms : minimally viable game

MINIMALLY viable features games ... in 6 years
( honestly im thinking nothing will ever releases )

they will not get the 3 millions more
( i hope peoples are not that stupid but peoples prove me wrong each times... )

im thinking that just a pure scams at this points

You sound so insightful. Bravo!

Mardukk · September 2016

So damn tired of kickstarter. At this point I would be ok with everyone giving companies nothing before the game is finished and released. If this means nothing gets released...oh well. We need a list of kickstarter games that are super successful and people have been happy with.

Slapshot1188 · September 2016

Tim don't try so hard. Was it on the Kickstarter page? No

Simple answer.

Now if they really feel that no backer was mislead why not simply have a 2 week refund period? If nobody was deceived there is nothing for SBS to worry about right? It's funny they so cavalierly toss around "perceived risk" for the backers when they themselves won't take the risk of offering refunds.

People shouldn't have to dig through post 478 on the forums or a random blurb on a developer newsletter to find out they are backing a prototype and not a full game. Stretch goals when the main game needs 2 - 3 times the Kickstarter just to launch? Embarassing and indefensible.

Albatroes · September 2016

“In the end, the approach we took was to solicit feedback from the community to cull the game down to its most basic form, what people considered to be the minimally viable game. We estimated the cost of development based on that and used that as our funding goal. We then took everything else and set them as stretch goals.

In this way, we're able to release what we and the community feel is a complete game, but also gives backers the opportunity to communicate with their support which features they want to see at launch. All that said, we'll be setting a funding goal of $900k, with a slew of cool and important stretch goals.”

So, I'm gonna try my logic at this in explaining why this isn't right. When someone requests money from Kickstarter, regardless of how well things are communicated ELSEWHERE it should be mentioned on the place you're requesting funding from. Stripped down to bare bones, according to them, the 900k was enough to make a >>> complete game <<<. What I liked about the article written on this site is the simple question that they actually raised more than 900k, I believe close to 1.4M? Yet, that money is going towards stretch goals??? How can anything honestly be a "stretch goal" if the product isn't even completed. Its honestly the same logic as day one DLC. How can you make day 1 DLC on a game that isn't even finished/released? There is no logic, just greed. These guys are telling or maybe not even telling people that the extra 500k HAS to go goals that will not lead to completing the game. Stretch goals for a game that still needs 2-3M to complete? I'll be honest, the likelihood of this game seeing release is looking slimmer and slimmer the more time passes.

SpottyGekko · September 2016

They blatantly abused the Kickstarter process and misrepresented what the funding was for.

Sins of omission are just as bad as sins of commission.

Now they're cocky enough to say "tough shit, you fell for it, now deal with it ! Sorry, no refunds" ?

Octagon7711 · September 2016

I read the kickstarter page and some of their forums. It looked to me like, "this is what we need to make the game," then, "we got that, this what we need to make the game better with stretch goals." They didn't start putting out the words seed money and MVP until now.

You really shouldn't have to read Reddit or every post in their forums to know what's going on, that's what the kickstarter page is for, the one with regular updates about what was going on and keep posting pictures of strange wild life. Not to mention what they wanted to do with souls is untested and a big gamble in and of itself.

They appear to be all over the place. Still I wish them well and hope they get their act together cause this doesn't bold well.

Vrika · September 2016

I think the real communication mistake was that they told about it at all.

They should have just kept quiet, and if the money ran out explained how the development took longer than they thought and there were more costs than they thought.

donger56 · September 2016

Nice mental gymnastics, but in the end, the author just looks like some CEO sitting in front of congress trying not to admit the obvious. This was yet another fine example of why crowdfunding sucks for MMORPG's. So now what happens if they don't extort 2-3 million from somewhere? I guess the backers lose again. How many more times does this have to happen before people stop throwing money and this garbage?

bobbymcswanson · September 2016

I lost interest after I saw that you could by higher status in the game for thousands of real $$$....imma be dammed before I pay real money to be a serf in a video game where i pay some rich RL asshole virtual taxes.....

This trend of buying status in a video game is getting annoying...everyone that plays should be on equal footing regardless of real world standing....

Am I missing something? Everyone buys the game for 30-40$ then has to buy extra lives as a "subscription type fee"....but I can also pay like 10k to be king over other players for 6months or so? Get the fuck outta here....

FelixMajor · September 2016

We were all warned never to go full retard. They went full retard.

Thomas2006 · September 2016

This game will never come out.. You can quote me on that in a few years when people are crying that it is not out.

Me and several other people on these exact forums said that there was NO way they could creature what they where selling on a $900k budget. Not with the small team they had. Even another $2-$3 mil will not give these jokers / conartist the ability to create said game.

They knew full well that if they put on kickstarter that this was the $900k was to fund a prototype to pitch to investors that very VERY few people would have put money toward it. They delibertly left that wording out of it to get the money.

Now months later they have very little to nothing to show for it and they are back asking for more money. Where is that prototype MMO? Why did it not get the investers to finish out that money? Why do they need to ask for even more money?

No invester worth a dam is going to touch this with there millions. Very basic research will tell you this is an extremly high risk investment with very low odds of return. When very large companies dedicated to making MMO's and people that have WAY WAY more knowledge in the working of MMO's then these clowns can not pull of MMO's of half the scope with $100m + budgets. What makes you think these few people with little to no MMO development knowledge with a team only slightly larger then a one man show compared to these larger companies. It is all pipedreams. I bet a few of these devs are sitting in nice new cards, houses and offices.

Kickstarter projects should have to show where every penny of the money goes to its backers. Should be a requirement to show on the kickstarter page exactly where the money is / was used and what was purchased.

$900k+ and nothing they have shown couldn't be done with stock Unreal 4 and some store bought assets + a canned kit website.

Slapshot1188 · September 2016

TimEisen said:

Personally I think it should have not just been on the KS but in the promo vid and featured on top of the KS in one of the main bullets. I dont understand how it wasn't.

That's really the point isn't it?

Listing Stretch Goals they are going to apply the funds to when they need millions more for the base game? Are you kidding me?

And again, if they REALLY believe they were straight up and everyone was informed why not reopen refunds for 2 weeks? Why should the honus be on the backers to bear the "perceived risk"?

k61977 · September 2016

This is the one of the few times I would defend someone for doing a chargeback against a company since they are having a no refund policy. There is a huge difference between a prototype and a complete game. Since they themselves have came out and stated that it was always going to be a prototype with the kickstarter and not a game itself they most likely mislead a lot of people that most likely wouldn't have given if they knew. This is not something you bury on other pages and hope investors don't see. Doing something like that is what I would consider fraud by omission. It is very, very rare you will ever see me say that people have a right to do a chargeback, I feel that way on this.

Wizardry · September 2016

I don't have a problem with being off in the numbers by a few million,i have a problem with a certain game that said ti could be done for 6 million but 120 million later still have VERY little to show,that is a HUMONGOUS difference in cost.
However that does not mean i have changed my stance on Ks's/crowd funding,i still consider game development to be the sole problem of the developer,not the gamer's.
I don't get the whole "I backed this" statements,it makes it sound like the gamer is investing into some business when they are most certainly not.

The ONLY time i consider taking gamer money as being legit is if the developer offers up shares in the business and that is normal straight up shares and not any kind of mumbo jumbo B rated or C rated or whatever BS terms go around in business.

CrazKanuk · September 2016

Mardukk said:

So damn tired of kickstarter. At this point I would be ok with everyone giving companies nothing before the game is finished and released. If this means nothing gets released...oh well. We need a list of kickstarter games that are super successful and people have been happy with.

Just search Kickstarter on Steam

My bet is that you say, "Shit! I had no idea that was crowdfunded more than once."

There are PLENTY of highly successful games that people are overwhelmingly happy with. Similarly, there are plenty of games that people are unhappy with. Imagine that!!

Actually, I did a comparison between KS games and regularly-released games based on their thumbs-up/down on steam and there is literally no difference. So don't be putting the Publisher on a pedestal because the evidence is right there in plain sight. Pull your ass out of 2009.

Octagon7711 · September 2016

Just got an updates email from them. THis is part of what it said.
Today we're live on DM21 Gaming for a special 2-hour Q&A to celebrate the channel's anniversary and answer your questions about Chronicles of Elyria.

Join us from 4-6pm PST. Questions will be taken from the most up-voted items on this Reddit thread.

Dakeru · September 2016

All you need to know about this company is the way Caspian keeps phrasing stuff to get vague meanings.

This "$900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed” is a pretty good example.

Well as I said in another thread - there is no AAA game but at least some people have AAA teeth now.

Sovrath · September 2016

Wizardry said:

I don't get the whole "I backed this" statements,it makes it sound like the gamer is investing into some business when they are most certainly not.

They are if they think they are.

the word investment is not just used to get a monetary return. It's used by organizations all the time for "investing" in community, "investing" in education, etc. The return is something that the person giving the money believes in, it's about making something happen.

Mardukk · September 2016

CrazKanuk said:

Mardukk said:

So damn tired of kickstarter. At this point I would be ok with everyone giving companies nothing before the game is finished and released. If this means nothing gets released...oh well. We need a list of kickstarter games that are super successful and people have been happy with.

Just search Kickstarter on Steam

My bet is that you say, "Shit! I had no idea that was crowdfunded more than once."

There are PLENTY of highly successful games that people are overwhelmingly happy with. Similarly, there are plenty of games that people are unhappy with. Imagine that!!

Actually, I did a comparison between KS games and regularly-released games based on their thumbs-up/down on steam and there is literally no difference. So don't be putting the Publisher on a pedestal because the evidence is right there in plain sight. Pull your ass out of 2009.

Keep handing over the money bud. By the way I have a few sketches for a great game. What do you think about supporting me?

donger56 · September 2016

CrazKanuk said:

Mardukk said:

So damn tired of kickstarter. At this point I would be ok with everyone giving companies nothing before the game is finished and released. If this means nothing gets released...oh well. We need a list of kickstarter games that are super successful and people have been happy with.

Just search Kickstarter on Steam

My bet is that you say, "Shit! I had no idea that was crowdfunded more than once."

There are PLENTY of highly successful games that people are overwhelmingly happy with. Similarly, there are plenty of games that people are unhappy with. Imagine that!!

Actually, I did a comparison between KS games and regularly-released games based on their thumbs-up/down on steam and there is literally no difference. So don't be putting the Publisher on a pedestal because the evidence is right there in plain sight. Pull your ass out of 2009.

I can't think of a single MMORPG that was entirely crowdfunded that could be called anything approaching what I would consider a success. Either you have a very low bar for what a success is, or you are referring to games outside the MMORPG genre.

Archlyte · September 2016

Dakeru said:

All you need to know about this company is the way Caspian keeps phrasing stuff to get vague meanings.

This "$900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed” is a pretty good example.

Well as I said in another thread - there is no AAA game but at least some people have AAA teeth now.

At this point I think that the future of CoE is looking grim. It's hard to come back from a PR faux pas like this even with a great product. Not having a product in a reasonable time frame will not help. Repopulation is feeling very similar, with the original staff probably having had kids go off to college and what not with the game not yet released.

WoW may have actually killed the MMORPG genre back in 2003/4 but know one knew it yet.

Sovrath · September 2016

Archlyte said:

Dakeru said:

All you need to know about this company is the way Caspian keeps phrasing stuff to get vague meanings.

This "$900k was all we needed from Kickstarter to get the game done, not that it's all we'd needed” is a pretty good example.

Well as I said in another thread - there is no AAA game but at least some people have AAA teeth now.

At this point I think that the future of CoE is looking grim. It's hard to come back from a PR faux pas like this even with a great product. Not having a product in a reasonable time frame will not help. Repopulation is feeling very similar, with the original staff probably having had kids go off to college and what not with the game not yet released.

WoW may have actually killed the MMORPG genre back in 2003/4 but know one knew it yet.

They might be able to rebound if they had a better "front man" to address the community. But they don't.

They have this guy who seems confrontational and we all know how people positively respond to confrontational people.

Seelinnikoi · September 2016

GREED MONGER 2.0

Hellmoon1500 · September 2016

Torval said:

TimEisen said:

I tried extremely hard to honestly present enough information for people to see the quotes and make their own conclusion. I did the back research and gave you the pieces I think are relevant to the topic for you to extrapolate from. Looking at those Kickstarter quotes it's hard not to think 900k was for the game. On the other hand the additional info existed, but it was certainly not easy to find.

Personally I think it should have not just been on the KS but in the promo vid and featured on top of the KS in one of the main bullets. I dont understand how it wasn't.

You did try and did a great job up until the conclusion that sort of excused them anyway.

All the shoulda coulda woulda stuff doesn't really matter. What matters is that according to the Kickstarter rules the amount they ask for is the amount they need from supporters to complete what they promise to deliver to them.

If I was a disgruntled backer I would contact them first for the refund. Then, failing that, I would contact Kickstarter and file a complaint about the project. Most people shouldn't be getting into this stuff anyway. I have a feeling that is why Brian Fargo and some associates started Fig - it's a better evolution to funding game projects. It allows for both accredited investors and hobbyist supporters. Pretty neat.

900k is ALL they need from fans/backers, period. They have stated that in a recent interview regarding this whole matter (http://massivelyop.com/2016/09/28/interview-chronicles-of-elyrias-jeromy-walsh-on-post-kickstarter-funding/). It's not like they are Star Citizen and putting the game up a second time to crowdfund. They received a lot of feedback from people who couldn't back the game on kickstarter due to its payment restrictions and thus worked on putting out a store to accommodate fans that wanted to contribute and get kickstarter rewards as well as those who didn't learn about the game until after the kickstarter ended.

The statement in question relates to SBS's mention of getting Series A funding from actual investors, like...people who want to make money from the game's development. Series A funding ONLY occurs when there is a product to invest in (think Pied Piper from Silicon Valley, if you are familiar with the show, they had to make a minimally viable product from their seed money they won in the TechCrunch Disrupt competition plus the $200k startup investment from an outside source before they were able to take bids in the Series A funding round).

TV shows aside, I can see why some people feel hurt because they felt like this was a lack of information but in the grand scheme of things....it's really petty to drop your backing because SBS is looking for investors. SBS is still using KS money to make COE, if they had asked for $3 million on KS, they would have never got it and they didn't want to raise that from everyday-joes anyways...they want it from investors who need a Series A prototype. SBS is still making COE, their goals haven't changed one bit...but what people saw as kickstarter (A) then a finished game (C) path, it's more involved than that, but it's the same result: A. Kickstarter success, B. Create a minimally viable game and get additional funding from investors, C. Take the additional funding and create a finished product.

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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey