First of all @ Vrika and Sovrath were you backers? If not, I don't think you understand the frustration that people who pledged their money on Kickstarter must feel right now. The people who pledged money on Kickstarter weren't told that their money was going to their medical and dental insurance; they believed that the money was going to go to the creation of the game. Now they are asking for more money. If I pledged money (which thankfully I did not), I wouldn't be too happy to know where my money was going to.
Jeromy Walsh already was paying out of pocket, before Kickstarter (or so he claims). I assume that he is well off, so if he wanted his employees to have medical and dental insurance, why did it come out of the Kickstarter money? I agree with @Dakeru they are a tiny indie studio that is offering top salaries and benefits to their employees with money that doesn't belong to them. That's not right.
"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
Since when did gamers start funding indie companies with millions of dollars for a game before it's done? Oh wait, since Star Citizen. This is stupid, and I have no intention on helping supply them with MILLIONS to complete their indie MMO. That's ridiculous.
And before they will even release or finish that game, all the backers will be 10years older and in that time people will have other priorites or better games will be released, new technologies will come up etc..
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.? -Albert Einstein
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write. So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.
It was solely, “Hey all, as you know, MMOs are expensive and we’re still working to raise another $2M – $3M, but anything you want to contribute further will help.”
Is that the total budget for the game?
Yes. That’s what we anticipate is necessary to finish the game completely – including building all the additional content, hiring additional staff, and getting it out the door.
He should be named Kirby.. obviously he lives in Dreamland.
$2-$3M is not the total budget - otherwise they wouldn't need more money based on what they have said. It is their "budget to completion" - technically their estimated budget to complete.
Well maybe since the interview goes on to say that this will only get them (hopefully!) to some minimum viable product, that more money will be needed and they will get this from publishing deals ....
So it seems that not only is it not a total budget number its not an estimated budget to completion either.
So, let me get all this straight. The CEO lists a number that he knows will only be enough to create a portfolio to showcase to potential investors that may or may not invest and is estimating that the full project will take 2-3 million more to completely, right?
If all that is correct and with him openly admitting to pretty much using sheeple to fund a prototype, does this guy seriously think he'll get enough investors at this point? Its pretty much PR suicide for anyone connected to something like that imo.
I was stupid enough to back this game and posted my feelings on Kickstarter.
My first issue is simply stated when you see a project on Kickstarter, the poster is asked to list the dollar amount needed "to complete the project" Often multiple funding sources are used; e.g. the project group's seed money, the KickStarter and an intention to seek additional investment. In this case, it was clearly stated this team felt they needed $900K indicating they had more than $500K already invested themselves and $500K from family and friends. In other words, a budget just about $1.9 MM Too little? Maybe but it is what they stated in the KickStarter. At no time did they indicate they needed millions more....They collected $1.3 MM exceeding their goal.
Now we are led to believe this is far short of what they needed and oh, "this was clear to everyone all along" (sic) Oh and at the same time in the same post, they shut off any refunds updating their "refund policy"
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. What was I thinking?
Caveat Empor!
Sorry all future crowdfunding seekers, I'm out. Thank morons like Chis Roberts and these fools. They ruined it for you; really too bad when excellent games like Wasteland 2 and Divinity Original Sin probably wouldn't have been made without crowdfunding.
A fool and his money are soon parted?
you can do a visa/mastercard charge back, or a bank refunds in most country
you explain about how that a scam ( asked 900k first for create a games, then say that not enough and want more money... in fact visa and mastercard dont even need why usualy , you just say that a scam )
get back your money because they will ask for more
peoples have told you guys btw... they got team with zero experience, they want make a games with features even AAA team cant make... with 40++ millions...
this will never be make, if you cant get money, learn from your mistake and dont get riped off again next months with the new kickstarter....
when you back kickstarter, you need well know peoples behind, a good team with exp, not their first mmorpg ( or they got a demo, more that papers and dream ect )
you can trust games for exemple divinity 2 ( will be done ) and well know dev...
get better judgements guys.... now think about the money wasted .
First of all @ Vrika and Sovrath were you backers? If not, I don't think you understand the frustration that people who pledged their money on Kickstarter must feel right now. The people who pledged money on Kickstarter weren't told that their money was going to their medical and dental insurance; they believed that the money was going to go to the creation of the game. Now they are asking for more money. If I pledged money (which thankfully I did not), I wouldn't be too happy to know where my money was going to.
Jeromy Walsh already was paying out of pocket, before Kickstarter (or so he claims). I assume that he is well off, so if he wanted his employees to have medical and dental insurance, why did it come out of the Kickstarter money? I agree with @Dakeru they are a tiny indie studio that is offering top salaries and benefits to their employees with money that doesn't belong to them. That's not right.
I am not a backer, true. My irritation is with companies that misrepresent themselves or are not clear that the money they use isn't going to be the entire pot that they need to finish their game. Because of this it gives kickstarter and and any crowdfunding sites/organizations a bad name and sort of "poisons the well" for legitimate, talented groups who could really use crowd funding to finish great projects that wouldn't otherwise get funding.
HOWEVER ...
"finishing a game/working on a game", to me, means running a business and part of running a business means paying employees, giving them benefits, giving them a reason to actually be there WORKING.
This is part of "the creation of the game". You make it sound that the money should only go to hobbyists who are working on their own time or who should just get some token compensation.
It's more than ok for them to compensate their employees or even to "have employees". Anyone who thinks that giving benefits is a "no no", especially to qualified people is ... well, I'm not sure how to respond to that as it feels to me that they have no knowledge of the workplace.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
First of all @ Vrika and Sovrath were you backers? If not, I don't think you understand the frustration that people who pledged their money on Kickstarter must feel right now. The people who pledged money on Kickstarter weren't told that their money was going to their medical and dental insurance; they believed that the money was going to go to the creation of the game.
You're being unrealistic. Any company must offer good salary, benefits and terms if they want to hire skilled workers. Kickstarter companies are no exception.
Did you think Kickstarter companies could get stuff cheaper because it's bought using your money?
First of all @ Vrika and Sovrath were you backers? If not, I don't think you understand the frustration that people who pledged their money on Kickstarter must feel right now. The people who pledged money on Kickstarter weren't told that their money was going to their medical and dental insurance; they believed that the money was going to go to the creation of the game. Now they are asking for more money. If I pledged money (which thankfully I did not), I wouldn't be too happy to know where my money was going to.
Jeromy Walsh already was paying out of pocket, before Kickstarter (or so he claims). I assume that he is well off, so if he wanted his employees to have medical and dental insurance, why did it come out of the Kickstarter money? I agree with @Dakeru they are a tiny indie studio that is offering top salaries and benefits to their employees with money that doesn't belong to them. That's not right.
I am not a backer, true. My irritation is with companies that misrepresent themselves or are not clear that the money they use isn't going to be the entire pot that they need to finish their game. Because of this it gives kickstarter and and any crowdfunding sites/organizations a bad name and sort of "poisons the well" for legitimate, talented groups who could really use crowd funding to finish great projects that wouldn't otherwise get funding.
HOWEVER ...
"finishing a game/working on a game", to me, means running a business and part of running a business means paying employees, giving them benefits, giving them a reason to actually be there WORKING.
This is part of "the creation of the game". You make it sound that the money should only go to hobbyists who are working on their own time or who should just get some token compensation.
It's more than ok for them to compensate their employees or even to "have employees". Anyone who thinks that giving benefits is a "no no", especially to qualified people is ... well, I'm not sure how to respond to that as it feels to me that they have no knowledge of the workplace.
You're missing the point. How is any of this going to matter if the game is not completed? The article says that $2-3M More Needed to Complete the Game", so does this mean that backers are simply sustaining them until the money runs out? This is the impression that I'm getting. You understand that they may have misrepresented themselves to where the money was going.
I don't think the people who backed the game care if they have medical and dental insurance; I know that you are saying that is all part of running a business. However, how I look at it, no product, no pay. They are wasting their time if they need $2-3M more to "complete" the game.
"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
First of all @ Vrika and Sovrath were you backers? If not, I don't think you understand the frustration that people who pledged their money on Kickstarter must feel right now. The people who pledged money on Kickstarter weren't told that their money was going to their medical and dental insurance; they believed that the money was going to go to the creation of the game.
You're being unrealistic. Any company must offer good salary, benefits and terms if they want to hire skilled workers. Kickstarter companies are no exception.
Did you think Kickstarter companies could get stuff cheaper because it's bought using your money?
Thankfully, I was not one of the backers (so it wasn't my money). No, I don't think I'm being unrealistic either. Read my comment to Sovrath. They did not make it clear to where they money was going. The backers shouldn't have had to assume that they were paying for their medical/dental insurance, furniture, etc. You are getting lost in the details.
"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
Well great then that a tiny indie studio that lives from kickstarter money offers top salaries and benefits to their employees.
If you do want good and experienced talent working on your side...
...you really have to dig deeper in your pockets. This is what maintains the industry standards as companies do exactly that to keep their talent to attract it to them.
Or they move their operations to Germany for the cheaper labor...
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
This market is becoming a huge source of scams and I blame the player base! The moment people started deciding that no one should have to pay subs and or box fees.
So as it sounds these guys are basically asking for "investors" to back their company based around a product that doesn't exist yet, and may never without any stake in said company. Or are they looking to milk a few years salary out of "founders"? It's a rather ingenious scam, pay our operating costs, health insurance, and salaries to the tune of 2 - 3 million dollars so we can maybe deliver a finished product at some point... lol
First of all @ Vrika and Sovrath were you backers? If not, I don't think you understand the frustration that people who pledged their money on Kickstarter must feel right now. The people who pledged money on Kickstarter weren't told that their money was going to their medical and dental insurance; they believed that the money was going to go to the creation of the game. Now they are asking for more money. If I pledged money (which thankfully I did not), I wouldn't be too happy to know where my money was going to.
Jeromy Walsh already was paying out of pocket, before Kickstarter (or so he claims). I assume that he is well off, so if he wanted his employees to have medical and dental insurance, why did it come out of the Kickstarter money? I agree with @Dakeru they are a tiny indie studio that is offering top salaries and benefits to their employees with money that doesn't belong to them. That's not right.
These guys can be complete morons.
To be fair: It doesn't matter whether you're hiring employees to work for you through Kickstarter, Investors or your own money.
You have to offer competitive wages and benefits. You think anyone qualified is gonna work for peanuts?
The other things can be very questionable. I buy my office furniture at auction for about 10 cents on the dollar. Auctions are flooded with the stuff usually from people who wasted other peoples money.
P.S. - How can you have any faith in a company that was off it's projected budget by 300%?
It's not like we are talking they underestimated by 25% or even 50%. This would be like me getting an estimate on getting my kitchen done, they say 20k with 50% up front, then they rip my kitchen apart and come back and say we were a little off with that 20k, its really going to cost 60k... lol
You would kick that dude out of your house and sew!
First of all @ Vrika and Sovrath were you backers? If not, I don't think you understand the frustration that people who pledged their money on Kickstarter must feel right now. The people who pledged money on Kickstarter weren't told that their money was going to their medical and dental insurance; they believed that the money was going to go to the creation of the game. Now they are asking for more money. If I pledged money (which thankfully I did not), I wouldn't be too happy to know where my money was going to.
Jeromy Walsh already was paying out of pocket, before Kickstarter (or so he claims). I assume that he is well off, so if he wanted his employees to have medical and dental insurance, why did it come out of the Kickstarter money? I agree with @Dakeru they are a tiny indie studio that is offering top salaries and benefits to their employees with money that doesn't belong to them. That's not right.
I am not a backer, true. My irritation is with companies that misrepresent themselves or are not clear that the money they use isn't going to be the entire pot that they need to finish their game. Because of this it gives kickstarter and and any crowdfunding sites/organizations a bad name and sort of "poisons the well" for legitimate, talented groups who could really use crowd funding to finish great projects that wouldn't otherwise get funding.
HOWEVER ...
"finishing a game/working on a game", to me, means running a business and part of running a business means paying employees, giving them benefits, giving them a reason to actually be there WORKING.
This is part of "the creation of the game". You make it sound that the money should only go to hobbyists who are working on their own time or who should just get some token compensation.
It's more than ok for them to compensate their employees or even to "have employees". Anyone who thinks that giving benefits is a "no no", especially to qualified people is ... well, I'm not sure how to respond to that as it feels to me that they have no knowledge of the workplace.
You're missing the point. How is any of this going to matter if the game is not completed? The article says that $2-3M More Needed to Complete the Game", so does this mean that backers are simply sustaining them until the money runs out? This is the impression that I'm getting. You understand that they may have misrepresented themselves to where the money was going.
I don't think the people who backed the game care if they have medical and dental insurance; I know that you are saying that is all part of running a business. However, how I look at it, no product, no pay. They are wasting their time if they need $2-3M more to "complete" the game.
I don't think they have to necessarily make it clear where the money is going as far as x amount of dollars went to taxes, x amount went to licensing, x amount went to salary and benefits, etc.
I do agree that when company says they need "x" amount of dollars that they have figured out what they need in total costs to finish the project. Those total costs, as far as I'm concerned are what they need to "run a business" for the completion of the project.
So to me that means computers, software, and licensing to snacks, lunches, office supplies to salary, benefits and rent and whatever else they need.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well great then that a tiny indie studio that lives from kickstarter money offers top salaries and benefits to their employees.
If you do want good and experienced talent working on your side...
...you really have to dig deeper in your pockets. This is what maintains the industry standards as companies do exactly that to keep their talent to attract it to them.
Or you get a group of people that are willing to do it for less because they believe in your vision, then raise their salaries once you are successful.
If you work for a startup you may have to accept being underpaid for a time.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Those pockets are filled with money that doesn't belong to them.
Sure it does. That's what the crowdfunding does. The money is theirs to do with as they see fit in order to complete their project. Paying good wages (hiring quality talent), buying proper tools and resources, and so on is part of the costs for certain projects.
Yeah sure it does. All the people who funded via kickstarter knew the money would be spent on shiny teeth.
Those pockets are filled with money that doesn't belong to them.
Sure it does. That's what the crowdfunding does. The money is theirs to do with as they see fit in order to complete their project. Paying good wages (hiring quality talent), buying proper tools and resources, and so on is part of the costs for certain projects.
Yeah sure it does. All the people who funded via kickstarter knew the money would be spent on shiny teeth.
That's being ridiculous
My lowest paid unskilled employees make $16 an hour and have extended medical and dental coverage.
That is what a responsible employer provides.
If you want to be a dick hire at minimum wage for 37 hours a week.
Those pockets are filled with money that doesn't belong to them.
Sure it does. That's what the crowdfunding does. The money is theirs to do with as they see fit in order to complete their project. Paying good wages (hiring quality talent), buying proper tools and resources, and so on is part of the costs for certain projects.
Yeah sure it does. All the people who funded via kickstarter knew the money would be spent on shiny teeth.
That's being ridiculous
My lowest paid unskilled employees make $16 an hour and have extended medical and dental coverage.
That is what a responsible employer provides.
If you want to be a dick hire at minimum wage for 37 hours a week.
Yeah people who lend money from others to start up a tiny indie company are dicks if they don't offer AAA salaries.
Funny.. just some years ago it would have been a dick move to spend money that doesn't belong to you on teeth and epic fluff like Star Trek doors.
Those pockets are filled with money that doesn't belong to them.
Sure it does. That's what the crowdfunding does. The money is theirs to do with as they see fit in order to complete their project. Paying good wages (hiring quality talent), buying proper tools and resources, and so on is part of the costs for certain projects.
Yeah sure it does. All the people who funded via kickstarter knew the money would be spent on shiny teeth.
That's being ridiculous
My lowest paid unskilled employees make $16 an hour and have extended medical and dental coverage.
That is what a responsible employer provides.
If you want to be a dick hire at minimum wage for 37 hours a week.
Yeah people who lend money from others to start up a tiny indie company are dicks if they don't offer AAA salaries.
Funny.. just some years ago it would have been a dick move to spend money that doesn't belong to you on teeth and epic fluff like Star Trek doors.
Times have changed.
Too bad for you
edit: My apologies as I rushed a reply (lunch) without really digesting your response.
Star Trek Doors are fluff, Dental plans are not. I don't know if your familiar with a dental plan since so many companies these days are too fucking cheap to offer them. Things were a lot different no too long ago.
The employee and the employer both put into them. You don't get free dental care, the plan only covers a percentage of the work. There is most commonly a yearly ceiling on the amount the plan will pay out. $2500 a year is pretty common. For necessary things like pulling teeth, fillings, etc. a plan will pay 80% for things like braces, caps, crowns etc. the plan only pays 50% anything over your annual ceiling you pay 100%
These are not crazy over the top plans. Normally the cost is split between the Employee and the Employer typically costing each around $40 a month.
Were not talking about anything extravagant when it comes to normal Dental Plans.
Those pockets are filled with money that doesn't belong to them.
Sure it does. That's what the crowdfunding does. The money is theirs to do with as they see fit in order to complete their project. Paying good wages (hiring quality talent), buying proper tools and resources, and so on is part of the costs for certain projects.
Yeah sure it does. All the people who funded via kickstarter knew the money would be spent on shiny teeth.
That's being ridiculous
My lowest paid unskilled employees make $16 an hour and have extended medical and dental coverage.
That is what a responsible employer provides.
If you want to be a dick hire at minimum wage for 37 hours a week.
Yeah people who lend money from others to start up a tiny indie company are dicks if they don't offer AAA salaries.
Funny.. just some years ago it would have been a dick move to spend money that doesn't belong to you on teeth and epic fluff like Star Trek doors.
Times have changed.
I don't think anyone is talking about star trek doors. That would be a misuse of any money that was raised.
Offering insurance to employees so you can keep those employees is a smart move. If you don't offer insurance those employees will want to go to another place, maybe one where they are making more money and have better benefits. That means you have to spend time on finding someone to fill the opening which takes quite a bit of money just to find a new person.
Then you explain to him/her that you offer a low wage with no benefits "but if the game takes off you might make a living wage!"
I worked for several startups and was always paid a fair wage as were the other employees.
We didn't have a star trek door though.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The funny thing is, it seems that a few of you are defending their right to use the Kickstarter money however they wish because you believe that all jobs should offer their employees medical and dental insurance. I don't have a problem with this, but I feel that Kickstarter allows every person that has a pipe dream to ask people for money, even though their goals are unrealistic.
I'm sure that Bill Gates, who dropped out of college wasn't worried about his medical and dental insurance, he took a risk, and it certainly paid off. I know many successful people that had to cut edges and had to go without BEFORE they became successful. If they set realistic goals, and if they at least raised their goal amount on Kickstarter, It may have paid off for them too. It would have been worth going without, to see their vision come to fruition.
This is not what they are doing; they did not set a realistic goal. Some people mentioned that it's impossible to create a game with a $900,000 budget, but that was their goal. Now they are saying the need $2-3M more, or the game cannot be finished. Many of you believe that this will still not be enough, so when do you say enough is enough?
"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
Though the supporter does indeed to have their head screwed on and be able to read the signs in any given crowd funding project, the gaming market has always been full of 'scams'. My shelf has plenty of crappy broken games that have been sold to me by dodgy lying devs and a largely corrupt gaming press. It's nothing new and hardly unique to KS.
The truth is that plenty of great PC titles have been delivered through crowdfunding that would never have been made otherwise.
And, tbh, how many new MMORPGs would be being made right now without crowd funding?
This genre is dead to the mainstream. If you don't like supporting indie devs with crowd funding, and are done with the existing games, then your time with MMORPGs is probably done.
Sounds like a new team doing this for the first time of being in charge of everything. They just call them as they see them, hey guys we need this, hey guys it now looks like we need this, hey guys this is going to take longer than our optimistic viewpoint thought it would take, hey guys... Sounds like they really need an experienced consultant to help them make those calls.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The funny thing is, it seems that a few of you are defending their right to use the Kickstarter money however they wish because you believe that all jobs should offer their employees medical and dental insurance. I don't have a problem with this, but I feel that Kickstarter allows every person that has a pipe dream to ask people for money, even though their goals are unrealistic.
I'm sure that Bill Gates, who dropped out of college wasn't worried about his medical and dental insurance, he took a risk, and it certainly paid off. I know many successful people that had to cut edges and had to go without BEFORE they became successful. If they set realistic goals, and if they at least raised their goal amount on Kickstarter, It may have paid off for them too. It would have been worth going without, to see their vision come to fruition.
This is not what they are doing; they did not set a realistic goal. Some people mentioned that it's impossible to create a game with a $900,000 budget, but that was their goal. Now they are saying the need $2-3M more, or the game cannot be finished. Many of you believe that this will still not be enough, so when do you say enough is enough?
I don't participate with Kickstarters, to open for abuse for my liking.
The real winner is KickStarter themself, talk about easy money.
The funny thing is, it seems that a few of you are defending their right to use the Kickstarter money however they wish because you believe that all jobs should offer their employees medical and dental insurance. I don't have a problem with this, but I feel that Kickstarter allows every person that has a pipe dream to ask people for money, even though their goals are unrealistic.
I'm sure that Bill Gates, who dropped out of college wasn't worried about his medical and dental insurance, he took a risk, and it certainly paid off. I know many successful people that had to cut edges and had to go without BEFORE they became successful. If they set realistic goals, and if they at least raised their goal amount on Kickstarter, It may have paid off for them too. It would have been worth going without, to see their vision come to fruition.
This is not what they are doing; they did not set a realistic goal. Some people mentioned that it's impossible to create a game with a $900,000 budget, but that was their goal. Now they are saying the need $2-3M more, or the game cannot be finished. Many of you believe that this will still not be enough, so when do you say enough is enough?
Just because people decide to do without health/dental insurance doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do.
You don't know what Bill Gates' situation was. maybe he was on his parent's insurance for all you know. Maybe he didn't have insurance, maybe he was using cheap state insurance. And why would anyone go without if they could at least have "some sort" of insurance. That's just irresponsible.
There are several things going on here.
They said they needed 900k dollars (they got more) but weren't clear that this was just to make a game that was complete enough to get further investment. It seems a lot of people thought that the just needed 900k.
As I mentioned, to me, any kickstarter funds raised are to fund a business and that business in this case, is to finish a game. The assumption being "well, they are only asking for 900k so clearly they can run a business under that amount of money because short of them not being clear or lying through their teeth one assumes they
have figured out the numbers and can pay all their costs with this
money.
And part of running a business is hiring employees and keeping employees.
There are a few of these kickstarter games where the developers claimed that they lost employees over time. I can't remember which games but they were discussed on this site.
Why did they lose employees? To better jobs.
You seem a bit romantic with your thought that this money is for struggling coders trying to put together a game in a fledgling startup. At least that's my takeaway.
I on the other hand being an older worker who has worked in startups and had a bit of a career at this point think of these startups as companies that want to be successful. And companies do want to keep people. They aren't all done out of someone's basement. No responsible adult is going to go without insurance if they can avoid it. Lower salary? Sure. But medical costs can become huge!
If they had 3 guys working on the game then it could have been a realistic goal depending on how much work they had already done. If they had 50 guys, obviously not unless all those 50 guys didn't take a salary.
I don't begrudge them using their money to keep people and make them happy. Good for them. I do think that they needed to be more clear on where that money was to take them.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
Jeromy Walsh already was paying out of pocket, before Kickstarter (or so he claims). I assume that he is well off, so if he wanted his employees to have medical and dental insurance, why did it come out of the Kickstarter money? I agree with @Dakeru they are a tiny indie studio that is offering top salaries and benefits to their employees with money that doesn't belong to them. That's not right.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.? -Albert Einstein
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.
Well maybe since the interview goes on to say that this will only get them (hopefully!) to some minimum viable product, that more money will be needed and they will get this from publishing deals ....
So it seems that not only is it not a total budget number its not an estimated budget to completion either.
Sweet dreams in Dreamland indeed.
If all that is correct and with him openly admitting to pretty much using sheeple to fund a prototype, does this guy seriously think he'll get enough investors at this point? Its pretty much PR suicide for anyone connected to something like that imo.
you can do a visa/mastercard charge back, or a bank refunds in most country
you explain about how that a scam ( asked 900k first for create a games, then say that not enough and want more money... in fact visa and mastercard dont even need why usualy , you just say that a scam )
get back your money because they will ask for more
peoples have told you guys btw... they got team with zero experience, they want make a games with features even AAA team cant make... with 40++ millions...
this will never be make, if you cant get money, learn from your mistake and dont get riped off again next months with the new kickstarter....
when you back kickstarter, you need well know peoples behind, a good team with exp,
not their first mmorpg ( or they got a demo, more that papers and dream ect )
you can trust games for exemple divinity 2 ( will be done ) and well know dev...
get better judgements guys.... now think about the money wasted .
HOWEVER ...
"finishing a game/working on a game", to me, means running a business and part of running a business means paying employees, giving them benefits, giving them a reason to actually be there WORKING.
This is part of "the creation of the game". You make it sound that the money should only go to hobbyists who are working on their own time or who should just get some token compensation.
It's more than ok for them to compensate their employees or even to "have employees". Anyone who thinks that giving benefits is a "no no", especially to qualified people is ... well, I'm not sure how to respond to that as it feels to me that they have no knowledge of the workplace.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Did you think Kickstarter companies could get stuff cheaper because it's bought using your money?
So as it sounds these guys are basically asking for "investors" to back their company based around a product that doesn't exist yet, and may never without any stake in said company. Or are they looking to milk a few years salary out of "founders"? It's a rather ingenious scam, pay our operating costs, health insurance, and salaries to the tune of 2 - 3 million dollars so we can maybe deliver a finished product at some point... lol
To be fair: It doesn't matter whether you're hiring employees to work for you through Kickstarter, Investors or your own money.
You have to offer competitive wages and benefits. You think anyone qualified is gonna work for peanuts?
The other things can be very questionable. I buy my office furniture at auction for about 10 cents on the dollar. Auctions are flooded with the stuff usually from people who wasted other peoples money.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
It's not like we are talking they underestimated by 25% or even 50%. This would be like me getting an estimate on getting my kitchen done, they say 20k with 50% up front, then they rip my kitchen apart and come back and say we were a little off with that 20k, its really going to cost 60k... lol
You would kick that dude out of your house and sew!
I do agree that when company says they need "x" amount of dollars that they have figured out what they need in total costs to finish the project. Those total costs, as far as I'm concerned are what they need to "run a business" for the completion of the project.
So to me that means computers, software, and licensing to snacks, lunches, office supplies to salary, benefits and rent and whatever else they need.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you work for a startup you may have to accept being underpaid for a time.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
All the people who funded via kickstarter knew the money would be spent on shiny teeth.
My lowest paid unskilled employees make $16 an hour and have extended medical and dental coverage.
That is what a responsible employer provides.
If you want to be a dick hire at minimum wage for 37 hours a week.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Funny.. just some years ago it would have been a dick move to spend money that doesn't belong to you on teeth and epic fluff like Star Trek doors.
Times have changed.
edit: My apologies as I rushed a reply (lunch) without really digesting your response.
Star Trek Doors are fluff, Dental plans are not. I don't know if your familiar with a dental plan since so many companies these days are too fucking cheap to offer them. Things were a lot different no too long ago.
The employee and the employer both put into them. You don't get free dental care, the plan only covers a percentage of the work. There is most commonly a yearly ceiling on the amount the plan will pay out. $2500 a year is pretty common. For necessary things like pulling teeth, fillings, etc. a plan will pay 80% for things like braces, caps, crowns etc. the plan only pays 50% anything over your annual ceiling you pay 100%
These are not crazy over the top plans. Normally the cost is split between the Employee and the Employer typically costing each around $40 a month.
Were not talking about anything extravagant when it comes to normal Dental Plans.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Offering insurance to employees so you can keep those employees is a smart move. If you don't offer insurance those employees will want to go to another place, maybe one where they are making more money and have better benefits. That means you have to spend time on finding someone to fill the opening which takes quite a bit of money just to find a new person.
Then you explain to him/her that you offer a low wage with no benefits "but if the game takes off you might make a living wage!"
I worked for several startups and was always paid a fair wage as were the other employees.
We didn't have a star trek door though.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm sure that Bill Gates, who dropped out of college wasn't worried about his medical and dental insurance, he took a risk, and it certainly paid off. I know many successful people that had to cut edges and had to go without BEFORE they became successful. If they set realistic goals, and if they at least raised their goal amount on Kickstarter, It may have paid off for them too. It would have been worth going without, to see their vision come to fruition.
This is not what they are doing; they did not set a realistic goal. Some people mentioned that it's impossible to create a game with a $900,000 budget, but that was their goal. Now they are saying the need $2-3M more, or the game cannot be finished. Many of you believe that this will still not be enough, so when do you say enough is enough?
Though the supporter does indeed to have their head screwed on and be able to read the signs in any given crowd funding project, the gaming market has always been full of 'scams'. My shelf has plenty of crappy broken games that have been sold to me by dodgy lying devs and a largely corrupt gaming press. It's nothing new and hardly unique to KS.
The truth is that plenty of great PC titles have been delivered through crowdfunding that would never have been made otherwise.
And, tbh, how many new MMORPGs would be being made right now without crowd funding?
This genre is dead to the mainstream. If you don't like supporting indie devs with crowd funding, and are done with the existing games, then your time with MMORPGs is probably done.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The real winner is KickStarter themself, talk about easy money.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
You don't know what Bill Gates' situation was. maybe he was on his parent's insurance for all you know. Maybe he didn't have insurance, maybe he was using cheap state insurance. And why would anyone go without if they could at least have "some sort" of insurance. That's just irresponsible.
There are several things going on here.
They said they needed 900k dollars (they got more) but weren't clear that this was just to make a game that was complete enough to get further investment. It seems a lot of people thought that the just needed 900k.
As I mentioned, to me, any kickstarter funds raised are to fund a business and that business in this case, is to finish a game. The assumption being "well, they are only asking for 900k so clearly they can run a business under that amount of money because short of them not being clear or lying through their teeth one assumes they have figured out the numbers and can pay all their costs with this money.
And part of running a business is hiring employees and keeping employees.
There are a few of these kickstarter games where the developers claimed that they lost employees over time. I can't remember which games but they were discussed on this site.
Why did they lose employees? To better jobs.
You seem a bit romantic with your thought that this money is for struggling coders trying to put together a game in a fledgling startup. At least that's my takeaway.
I on the other hand being an older worker who has worked in startups and had a bit of a career at this point think of these startups as companies that want to be successful. And companies do want to keep people. They aren't all done out of someone's basement. No responsible adult is going to go without insurance if they can avoid it. Lower salary? Sure. But medical costs can become huge!
If they had 3 guys working on the game then it could have been a realistic goal depending on how much work they had already done. If they had 50 guys, obviously not unless all those 50 guys didn't take a salary.
I don't begrudge them using their money to keep people and make them happy. Good for them. I do think that they needed to be more clear on where that money was to take them.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo