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Inside the Troubled Development of Star Citizen

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  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 798
    Wow.  I'm so glad I didn't listen to Erillion and opted not to spend a dime on this game.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,689
    I was taking about DS not the person who posted that twitter picture.  
    On the other hand, the messenger should matter less than the message (assuming the message is true).
    A messenger and a guy on a crusade are two different things.  The reality is that he loves the attention and has an axe to grind.  As a neutral party to SC it's rather obvious.
    One has to keep in mind that the so-called "messenger" in reality is a competitor in the same industry producing the same type of games (or trying to and failing the last 20 years).

    A "messenger" that is  trying to ruin another companies product, based on a decades old crusade fueled by hurt pride and jealousy.

    A "messenger" that is  trying to  AGAIN take over another persons company ( a la Alganon) through a campaign of FUD and propaganda aimed at the stakeholders (in this case - the backers).

    A "messenger" that paints himself as the spokesperson of "the gamer" and "gamer's rights" - while being known to himself ignore the rights of the players of his own games, banning people left, right and center for decades.

    So ... i hear the message from different sources and there is some truth to it (especially when it comes to the organisational structure of CIG in the early years) ... but a message coming from THIS "messenger" is not a message but a poisonous dart more akin to libel and spite.



    Have fun 

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,689
    Wow.  I'm so glad I didn't listen to Erillion and opted not to spend a dime on this game.
    Not that you WOULD have to spend a dime .. that is what Free Fly Weeks are for ;-)


    Have fun
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Wow.  I'm so glad I didn't listen to Erillion and opted not to spend a dime on this game.

    I'd expect that people wouldn't listen to a single source of information today, when so many opinions are available to us. 

    That being said, if you're glad you didn't back SC, then chances are risk isn't your bag, so I'd suggest maybe just waiting for any game to release before purchasing. Crowdfunding is full of risk and uncertainty, but it's not exclusive to Star Citizen. Shit, Torment: Tides of Numenera launched 5 months after the SC KS and is significantly less risky, and it's slated for release in 2017. Star Citizen is simply the popular scapegoat today. Contextually speaking, if you're seriously concerned about Star Citizen, I wouldn't recommend that you back any sort of crowdfunding project because you're probably too risk averse to endure the inevitable delays associated with a project like that. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Wow.  I'm so glad I didn't listen to Erillion and opted not to spend a dime on this game.
    Don't you worry.  They will always give you the opportunity to spend thousands in their cash shop.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,243
    CrazKanuk said:
    I'd expect that people wouldn't listen to a single source of information today, when so many opinions are available to us. 


    You would think this would be the case but look at all the babies that cried about Elite Dangerous' release trailer.
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 5,740
    edited September 2016
    CrazKanuk said:
    I'd expect that people wouldn't listen to a single source of information today, when so many opinions are available to us. 

    I expect people don't have any more time for listening to information sources today than they did in the past.

    Same amount of research must be enough as long as scientist don't invent a way to make more time.
     
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,595

    Hubris, incompetence, poor project management,  bad basic decisions, cultivated sycophancy,  distractibility combined with excessive micro-management, etc.


    There was always a chance when the SC project started, that Roberts might have learned from his errors and gained some maturity.  That was pretty quickly dispelled though.   Same old, same old;  it's just a lot more difficult to hide it now.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    I expect them to make some claim about how they didn't design the game to be run on windows and they have to start over from scratch.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,843
    edited September 2016
    Sure, why not? After all, all about SC and its development has to be bad and awful. :3

    You would think this would be the case but look at all the babies that cried about Elite Dangerous' release trailer.
    I think it's rather silly  people making their own opinions and views of a game from the trailers, trailers will always bring the shiny factor that is usually not in the game (exception to some extent gameplay trailers). Other silly one is making your mind of a game over what people say on internet forums, especially on a game that gives you frequent opportunities to try it out and make your own mind of it.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Hubris, incompetence, poor project management,  bad basic decisions, cultivated sycophancy,  distractibility combined with excessive micro-management, etc.


    There was always a chance when the SC project started, that Roberts might have learned from his errors and gained some maturity.  That was pretty quickly dispelled though.   Same old, same old;  it's just a lot more difficult to hide it now.


    Actually you're completely wrong about CR with regards to his management. I would have tended to agree with you more, a month ago, but I've actually read some articles the past couple weeks which actually sheds some light on things. He actively admits some of the mistakes that were made which shows he's completely aware of these issues. Also, he expressly admits that his standards are high and he doesn't get along well with those who aren't concerned with the same level of standards. This explains so much. So you could call him bull-headed and stubborn, but he's actively aware of what he's doing and he's looking to surround himself with people who are equally interested in creating ground-breaking stuff. 

    There may still be bad decisions that have been made along the way, but as far as his management goes, I think he's well aware that he is demanding and expects a lot, which ultimately leads to higher risk, higher rate of failure, etc. However, he also says that he's much happier with the situation they're in now over a year ago, which would indicate that he's actively tracking progress and managing people. 

    As far as project management goes, I'm more than willing to hear your perspective on it, but there is plenty of great evidence showing other crowdfunding projects with much less risk shipping just as late (Torment: Tides of Numenera being one of them). So it seems like people are projecting their idea of what bad management looks like onto CR when it's really just business as normal, at least for the games industry. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,870
    CrazKanuk said:

    Hubris, incompetence, poor project management,  bad basic decisions, cultivated sycophancy,  distractibility combined with excessive micro-management, etc.


    There was always a chance when the SC project started, that Roberts might have learned from his errors and gained some maturity.  That was pretty quickly dispelled though.   Same old, same old;  it's just a lot more difficult to hide it now.


    Actually you're completely wrong about CR with regards to his management. I would have tended to agree with you more, a month ago, but I've actually read some articles the past couple weeks which actually sheds some light on things. He actively admits some of the mistakes that were made which shows he's completely aware of these issues. Also, he expressly admits that his standards are high and he doesn't get along well with those who aren't concerned with the same level of standards. This explains so much. So you could call him bull-headed and stubborn, but he's actively aware of what he's doing and he's looking to surround himself with people who are equally interested in creating ground-breaking stuff. 

    There may still be bad decisions that have been made along the way, but as far as his management goes, I think he's well aware that he is demanding and expects a lot, which ultimately leads to higher risk, higher rate of failure, etc. However, he also says that he's much happier with the situation they're in now over a year ago, which would indicate that he's actively tracking progress and managing people. 

    As far as project management goes, I'm more than willing to hear your perspective on it, but there is plenty of great evidence showing other crowdfunding projects with much less risk shipping just as late (Torment: Tides of Numenera being one of them). So it seems like people are projecting their idea of what bad management looks like onto CR when it's really just business as normal, at least for the games industry. 
    Being aware of your mistakes and learning from them are 2 different things. I'm sure Chris was aware  of his mistakes while running digital anvil but he seems to be making the same mistakes again.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,340
    What bothers me a LOT,is that people seem to still have clouded minds on what has actually been happening with this game.

    I keep hearing "game of this scope and magnitude" and i have heard it a lot over the last 1-2 years.
    There was NEVER A game of great scope and magnitude,he bantered that he could build the game with 6 million and a COMPLETE game.

    All he did AFTER the fact was see a VERY easy target audience that he could leech a lot of money from.
    So hey,let's  start up some stretch goals,those ideas can keep coming in forever ,an endless stream of money with no definitive time line to ever finish the game.
    Oh sorry the game is not finished because we have these new stretch goals ...lmao  seriously does anyone actually pay attention to the OBVIOUS?
    I said it before,i look at common sense and realism,this game could turn out great but who knows when?What i am 99% certain of ,is that the end result will NEVER meet the massive amount of money he has shamelessly taken from naive gamer's,i consider it criminal and a darn shame there is no law protecting naive people from guys like Robert's.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,843
    edited September 2016
    Wizardry said:
    Oh sorry the game is not finished because we have these new stretch goals ...lmao  seriously does anyone actually pay attention to the OBVIOUS?
    The obvious? What new stretch goals do they keep add to the game to get extra funding? I don't see any since 2014.

    The only thing that was a feature that the game was never supposed to have is PG Planets, what brings a lot of variants from the gameplay that happens in them to things like atmospheric flight.

    But of course how dares CR and CIG do that, dam those evil criminals!

    Man there's a saying I see fitting for this: "The dogs keep barking as the caravan keeps moving on." So is SC. The end of the day i'm confident we will see a finished SC, but a certain thing for me is that it's going to take more time than what we would wish for.
  • MellowTiggerMellowTigger Member UncommonPosts: 84
    MaxBacon said:
    The only thing that was a feature that the game was never supposed to have is PG Planets, what brings a lot of variants from the gameplay that happens in them to things like atmospheric flight. ... Man there's a saying I see fitting for this: "The dogs keep barking as the caravan keeps moving on." So is SC. The end of the day i'm confident we will see a finished SC, but a certain thing for me is that it's going to take more time than what we would wish for.
    Oh, we already knew of the desire for procedurally-generated planets many years ago.  Chris Roberts mentioned Josh Parnell and his "Limit Theory" kickstarter and how Chris wanted to hire him for Star Citizen if Josh's kickstarter failed.  (It succeeded on 2012 Dec 22 with over 3X its goal.  Chalk up another interesting game idea that's still taking much longer to complete than originally planned.)

    And I agree about the caravan metaphor.  Progress keeps coming.  Slowly, but surely.
  • adamlotus75adamlotus75 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    The dogs bark at the caravan because there is a strange smell coming from inside... Like someone died of old age waiting for something
  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Member RarePosts: 3,432
    Were watching the death of a game by a thousand cuts.
    " Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who  Would Threaten It "
                                            MAGA
  • ShinimasShinimas Member UncommonPosts: 67
    Elsabolts said:
    Were watching the death of a game by a thousand cuts.
    What is dead may never die.
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,889
    edited September 2016
    MaxBacon said:
    The only thing that was a feature that the game was never supposed to have is PG Planets, what brings a lot of variants from the gameplay that happens in them to things like atmospheric flight. ... Man there's a saying I see fitting for this: "The dogs keep barking as the caravan keeps moving on." So is SC. The end of the day i'm confident we will see a finished SC, but a certain thing for me is that it's going to take more time than what we would wish for.
    Oh, we already knew of the desire for procedurally-generated planets many years ago.  Chris Roberts mentioned Josh Parnell and his "Limit Theory" kickstarter and how Chris wanted to hire him for Star Citizen if Josh's kickstarter failed.  (It succeeded on 2012 Dec 22 with over 3X its goal.  Chalk up another interesting game idea that's still taking much longer to complete than originally planned.)

    And I agree about the caravan metaphor.  Progress keeps coming.  Slowly, but surely.
    I don't know how closely you've been following Limit Theory, but I'm not sure that's the analogy you want to be making right now. Or maybe it is, I don't know. 

    One difference between Chris Roberts and Josh Parnell is that Chris communicates, frequently.

    Nearly a year and a half ago, Josh ebulliently admitted to "rather serious mental health issues" while asserting that "The plan for moving forward ...is, in fact, to not make a plan just yet".  Since then, communication has been spotty to put it diplomatically.  KS backers have not received any official word in more than a year.  Updates on the forum have been light on details.

    The last thing I want to do is make light of someone's mental health or disability.  Many brilliant people have "serious mental health issues".  The problem is, it seems like it would be hard for Josh to be more general than this if he tried.  "Mental health issues" covers... just about anything.  Compare this with Matt Gilgenbach, who has been very specific on what he has been dealing with.

    Unless Josh or someone on his behalf is able to come forward and say 'here is what Josh has been wrestling with specifically' unfortunately it's left to backers and the public at large to assume the worst.  To put it bluntly, it looks like a lack of honesty.  Even if... let's say... it was schizophrenia (alogia is sometimes associated with such, although Josh doesn't seem to have this affect) my humble analysis is that this wouldn't hurt his project much if at all.  If anything, it might garner support.

    Instead we're left with... nothing.  Only occasional updates: 'I've moved back home.  The project is now in a business incubator.  Yes, things are going well.  No, I can't say more right now, but progress is being made.'

    It would be nice to take such statements at face value, but considering the scale of the project and that Josh is apparently the only one working on it prudence and common sense illustrate a different narrative.  I'll not speculate here, but to me it looks very much like something else I've unfortunately had a lot of experience with.

    I wish Josh only the best, but he needs to get honest.  Limit Theory is apparently under extreme risk of failing.

    Chris, on the other hand, seems to almost have the opposite affect; he is a perpetual dreamer.  At every record-breaking milestone of crowdfunding, more dreams poured out from CIG's base camp (this is during 2013-2014, mostly).  'We are here to dream still greater dreams!' seemed to be the tongue-in-cheek mission statement.

    The problem with Chris has been that for too long instead of locking in a feature set and making regular updates on progress toward that plan, he seems to have let the game expand wildly out of control in terms of scope.

    /2c
    Post edited by Phaserlight on

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,595

    Just finished reading the entire Kotaku series on Star Citizen's developmental trouble.   Dang!  Incompetance, bad decision making, poor project management through and through.   Hmn, where have you heard that before?


    Roberts' hubris and arrogance oozed out of every pronouncement.  This guy worked on how many games?  How many movies?  And yet he made the same errors he was noted for throughout his entire history.   And added some new ones!


    The question from the beginning was whether Roberts had matured or not, but it was evident from early on that that wasn't the case.  Thus we have the same  sadsack development issues replayed once again,  just wasting supporter money this time.   And with no one to really rein in Roberts and his stupidity.


    Well, it will be interesting to see how they handle the Citizen Con this weekend. 



    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • goobsnewsgoobsnews Member UncommonPosts: 206
    Roberts ruining everything he touches? Shocker. Even that shifty used car dealership he started didn't even get off the ground before he gave up on that too. Not even kidding, he had a used car dealership.
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    The only thing missing from this thread is Derek Smart stating definitely that the project is FUBAR and that the whole thing will come crumbling down within 90 days .... of course, he first said that a year ago, but nevermind the details ...
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619

    Well, it will be interesting to see how they handle the Citizen Con this weekend. 



    We all know what is going to be shown...  Videos of things that are not in the game and wont be for a long time.  Look at the video they showed last year to get people to spend more money, half of that stuff is STILL not in the game.  A bunch of rah rah to get the masses to donate more and some carrots dangling of how great it will all be someday.

    I'll just sit here and ignore the hype and keep hoping we get the game we were promised sometime before 2020.
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • goobsnewsgoobsnews Member UncommonPosts: 206
    The only thing missing from this thread is Derek Smart stating definitely that the project is FUBAR and that the whole thing will come crumbling down within 90 days .... of course, he first said that a year ago, but nevermind the details ...
    Ohhh, you're one of those guys that thinks that Derek Smart is the boogeyman for every problem with Star Citizen and that he most definitely owns and writes articles for literally every single media outlet that reports anything negative about the game. Gotcha.
  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd.Member UncommonPosts: 999
    I will really miss this qq when the game launches. It actually is almost as epic as the game itself.

    I see documentaries in the future showcasing the qq.
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