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Did the NPC's in massive PVP cause the zerg mentality?

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  • Jill52Jill52 Member UncommonPosts: 85
    I don't think NPCs have much to do with the zerg (ganking) mentality at all.

    Instead, I have a theory about the zerg or ganking mentality...

    In a MMORPG you have a different types of PVPer. There are hardcore PVP players who play solely for the thrill of having a good fight with another real person. To these kinds of PVPers zerging or ganking would spoil the fun. They enjoy fighting against the odds and will often choose the underdog's side for the added challenge. Many of this type of PVPer prefer somewhat evenly matched fights most of all. PVE, to them, is widely considered to be boring and predictable. They endure it for the sole purpose of reaching the endgame where their real fun begins.
    A good number of this type found their somewhat fair fights with even matched teams elsewhere in the MOBA genre. There they need not grind through the boring PVE to get to their fun part. 

    What does that leave us with?...

    Obviously there are the hardcore PVE players who have no interest in PVP whatsoever. They try to avoid combat and endure the PVP aspects so they can attempt to enjoy the PVE content of a game.

    Then there are the PVE players who occasionally enjoy casual PVP or a duel here and there. They mainly play for the PVE content (quests, raids, crafting, exploring, etc.). While they do PVP sometimes for the same reasons as the hardcore PVPer they still spend most of their time enjoying the PVE aspect instead.

    Lastly we have the gankers. These are PVPers who do not fight for the thrill of a challenging fight. Instead they prefer it when the odds are overwhelmingly in their favor by having superior level, gear, number of players or all of these. A ganking party will purposefully seek out the weakest possible targets that pose them little or no threat.
    You might ask "Why do they do this?".
     For some the answer is as simple as trying to gain bragging rights by padding their stats with more kills (which they lack the talent to get on their own). For others?... they just enjoy seeing the reactions of the players they kill. They love it when someone they just killed goes on the global chat and starts complaining about it. They love it if their victims log off because of what happened... No matter what reaction they get it is always something they can't get from killing a NPC. Either way they are not interested in learning to fight properly nor do they care about the game's community. They instead choose the easiest possible path to killing other players (which is usually ganking or zerging) because they are only interested in what happens after the kill than the actual fight.

    So, with the rise of MOBA popularity there has been a noticeable simultaneous decline in the number of truly talented hardcore PVPers in MMORPGs. This theory coupled with how game makers design their PVP systems to be so balanced that the best and most obvious way to gain any advantage in PVP is superior numbers is more likely why ganking and zerging seem to be more prevalent in today's MMORPGs


     




  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,188
    filmoret said:
    I mean if one person shows up to an empty castle then he should be able to claim it without having to fight a bunch of npc's.  It would create an entirely new atmosphere and game if players had to actually communicate on how they were moving on the map and what they were defending so stuff like that didn't happen.
    I take it you weren't around for DAoC and 3AM zergs.
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,188
    I think if they made combat more "ground" in reality the effect of the zerg my not be as bad.  More realistic momentum based movement, strategic formation and the like would make it less chaotic. Have less area affect attacks would help some.

    But nothing can prevent zerging in general. 

    I'm with you on combat grounded in reality to a certain degree. Instead of less AoE, I would say return to the days where it wasn't selective. Selective AoE is a byproduct of griefing prevention. Combine that with collision detection, and suddenly the zerg dissipates. 

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,586
    edited September 2016
    I know you guys are wrong because Ragnarok had collision on guardians and skills and there was no zerg. People would rush in the castle to invade, but if you zerg/blob all would die to aoe's, because you would stuck in place and would eat many blizzards and meteors on pre-emp.

    Guilds who zerg in castles would just die on second room aoe's. Giving no worries to castle owner.

    The result is a different approach: People would go in in waves, following a tactic. The first wave would be bufed up to pass the aoe's and get mages cc'ed - so the group would follow a certain composition, the second wave would consist on raged damage to take mages down and some emp breakers to pass by and start taking the emp down.

    So instead of a zerg force you would have groups composed to fulfill a certain task within the war and the other groups would depend on them. It was a very tactic pvp feature.

    For example, people would send in just a couple of characters. One rogue to cc mages and a monk to azura a counter measure such a crusader.

    Note: Those waves were not a single stacked group. And they were very coordinated. So I think WoE is what you are looking for, OP, in terms of example.

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    LynxJSA said:
    I think if they made combat more "ground" in reality the effect of the zerg my not be as bad.  More realistic momentum based movement, strategic formation and the like would make it less chaotic. Have less area affect attacks would help some.

    But nothing can prevent zerging in general. 

    I'm with you on combat grounded in reality to a certain degree. Instead of less AoE, I would say return to the days where it wasn't selective. Selective AoE is a byproduct of griefing prevention. Combine that with collision detection, and suddenly the zerg dissipates. 

    It might be a lot to ask to have collision detection, movement with momentum and etc.  Collision detection is a casualty of preventing players from impacting other players. 
  • EpicJohnsonEpicJohnson Member UncommonPosts: 83
    Always amazed at the people who play a Massive Multi Player game and get upset/surprised when they get into a situation where they are outnumbered.
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    LynxJSA said:
    I think if they made combat more "ground" in reality the effect of the zerg my not be as bad.  More realistic momentum based movement, strategic formation and the like would make it less chaotic. Have less area affect attacks would help some.

    But nothing can prevent zerging in general. 

    I'm with you on combat grounded in reality to a certain degree. Instead of less AoE, I would say return to the days where it wasn't selective. Selective AoE is a byproduct of griefing prevention. Combine that with collision detection, and suddenly the zerg dissipates. 

    It might be a lot to ask to have collision detection, movement with momentum and etc.  Collision detection is a casualty of preventing players from impacting other players. 
    Unit collision and friendly fire bring a whole new set of problems to the table.  But if you look then Planetside2 has had friendly fire and that has survived.  I think they dealt with it well.  As for unit collision it would require an active GM who is looking for it and has the authority to deal with it.  Something not many mmo's have ever had.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,249
    Nyctelios said:
    I know you guys are wrong because Ragnarok had collision on guardians and skills and there was no zerg. People would rush in the castle to invade, but if you zerg/blob all would die to aoe's, because you would stuck in place and would eat many blizzards and meteors on pre-emp.

    Guilds who zerg in castles would just die on second room aoe's. Giving no worries to castle owner.

    The result is a different approach: People would go in in waves, following a tactic. The first wave would be bufed up to pass the aoe's and get mages cc'ed - so the group would follow a certain composition, the second wave would consist on raged damage to take mages down and some emp breakers to pass by and start taking the emp down.

    So instead of a zerg force you would have groups composed to fulfill a certain task within the war and the other groups would depend on them. It was a very tactic pvp feature.

    For example, people would send in just a couple of characters. One rogue to cc mages and a monk to azura a counter measure such a crusader.

    Note: Those waves were not a single stacked group. And they were very coordinated. So I think WoE is what you are looking for, OP, in terms of example.

    But, Warhammer also had collision detection and that was full of the zerg, so your premise doesn't hold up. 

    It sounds to me like Ragnarok has other mechanics to prevent the zerg, namely powerful AoE damage, that allowed smaller groups to fend off zergs successfully. 
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    filmoret said:
    LynxJSA said:
    I think if they made combat more "ground" in reality the effect of the zerg my not be as bad.  More realistic momentum based movement, strategic formation and the like would make it less chaotic. Have less area affect attacks would help some.

    But nothing can prevent zerging in general. 

    I'm with you on combat grounded in reality to a certain degree. Instead of less AoE, I would say return to the days where it wasn't selective. Selective AoE is a byproduct of griefing prevention. Combine that with collision detection, and suddenly the zerg dissipates. 

    It might be a lot to ask to have collision detection, movement with momentum and etc.  Collision detection is a casualty of preventing players from impacting other players. 
    Unit collision and friendly fire bring a whole new set of problems to the table.  But if you look then Planetside2 has had friendly fire and that has survived.  I think they dealt with it well.  As for unit collision it would require an active GM who is looking for it and has the authority to deal with it.  Something not many mmo's have ever had.
    UO and EQ you could block people physically.  You then had Ogres squaring in doorways lol.  UO you could push past them with limits that I can't remember.  
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,152
    Seems like some in this thread think a zerg is just a mindless blob incapable of using strategy or thinking. It's nothing more than a large grouping of players on the same side. It can use strategy, send parts of itself to different places or to the same place in waves if that makes tactical sense.

    Zergs happen in both full-collision and no-collision MMOs since all that collision brings to the table is just another way to do choke points with meat barriers instead of the wooden or stone varieties.

    And any self-respecting PVP game has natural terrain choke-points and anti-zerg counters - heavy damage siege AOE weapons with unlimited number of targets affected being the most common one.
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  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,188
    LynxJSA said:
    I think if they made combat more "ground" in reality the effect of the zerg my not be as bad.  More realistic momentum based movement, strategic formation and the like would make it less chaotic. Have less area affect attacks would help some.

    But nothing can prevent zerging in general. 

    I'm with you on combat grounded in reality to a certain degree. Instead of less AoE, I would say return to the days where it wasn't selective. Selective AoE is a byproduct of griefing prevention. Combine that with collision detection, and suddenly the zerg dissipates. 

    It might be a lot to ask to have collision detection, movement with momentum and etc.  Collision detection is a casualty of preventing players from impacting other players. 
    Most of the features that we've lost seem to be because people can't behave themselves. :) 
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