What do you all consider the best games that do not have classes?
Not sure about the "you all" part, some already mentioned TSW, I'd add CO as well (based on the afforementioned Hero system ). Both of those are piling up the in-game skills in a heap, then allow the characters to cherry-pick the skills they want to use - with some minor rules / restrictions. The main difference between them I think is how they're handling the so-called "altitis" TSW is focusing on one character (to rule them all), while CO is like an altoholic's wet dream (some severe altoholics have over a hundred alts there... not kidding, they even have a thread with the count http://forum.arcgames.com/championsonline/discussion/1203263/altaholic-challenge-part-5 ).
That said, while I would not say classes are a sign of lazy developers I would say, depending on what the goal of the meta game is, it's a sign of pragmatic developers. If you want to have a role based system, open or level-less character progression is going to be tough when considering "outside the box" builds and have it relatively comparable to others.
As an example: I want to essentially play a Paladin but more caster/support and the ability to dual wield swords. I'm looking at this from a group play aspect mind you. I understand that to have this build and to trade off I would need to be squishier. I can find this build in two titles that I can think of: Archage and SotA. The problem in AA is that you're mixing two class archetypes together so you're not as effective, especially the way gear stats work. In SotA it's a lot more doable but unfortunately I find the game a bit bland and boring so I have not gotten my build up enough to see if it's viable.
I say this because in a lot of ways the design of a game would need to change dramatically to effectively pull off an open class system in a title with group play. One of the reasons I'm looking forward to DnL is that I hope they can do this so I can create a character I envision, not the closest stock likeness.
There is more to classes than just making it 'easier' for the developers. A classless system ends up with everyone having the same exact build, or being gimped with any other build. When the devs try to fix it, a few days later there is another 'ultimate' build, and everyone switches to it. It is bad enough is a game with a class system, way worse in one without.
Also, many, many players have preferences for how they like to play. Personally I like playing tanks and healers. Nothing wrong with damage dealers, they just are not my cup of tea. I can go into a game with classes and know which classes are going to be the most fun for me.
Yeah, I know, I try DPS classes for every game I play, and other than City of Heroes I have yet to find a game that I really enjoy playing a DPSer. If the ultimate build is a DPS build, that means that my self designed tank and self designed healer have no chance for fun in PvP. I like PvE better, but that does not mean I avoid PvP. I have fun with that, and consider PvP a terrific way to breathe life into a game I am getting bored of.
That is complete nonsense! Take UO, skill based system had some of the best pvp I have experienced in a game. There were many ways to make a successful build in UO, there were no cookie cutter ones. In a rock paper scissors world you have to accept that any build has drawbacks too.
Classes are strictly for lazy developers who don't want to take the time to put together a good skill system.
OK, lets talk about UO. I never played it, but I just spent the last 3 years playing Forsaken World and then ESO with a friend who played UO for about 12 years, from day one. He told us on voice chat over and over how they would design builds that were unstoppable, and how six of them would take on 20 normal players and beat them into the ground. When the devs would adjust the game, they would adjust their builds. They would experiment for hours or even days on test until they were satisfied with their builds, and then go tear it up.
I doubt my friend and his guild were the only ones doing this. Since it was an open world PvP game, his guild, and him in particular, often had a price on their head. He thought that was part of the fun! But if you went in looking for a WoWish, or ESish type of experience, you would be sorely disappointed, although having an ultimate build would make it easier.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
That said, while I would not say classes are a sign of lazy developers I would say, depending on what the goal of the meta game is, it's a sign of pragmatic developers. If you want to have a role based system, open or level-less character progression is going to be tough when considering "outside the box" builds and have it relatively comparable to others.
As an example: I want to essentially play a Paladin but more caster/support and the ability to dual wield swords. I'm looking at this from a group play aspect mind you. I understand that to have this build and to trade off I would need to be squishier. I can find this build in two titles that I can think of: Archage and SotA. The problem in AA is that you're mixing two class archetypes together so you're not as effective, especially the way gear stats work. In SotA it's a lot more doable but unfortunately I find the game a bit bland and boring so I have not gotten my build up enough to see if it's viable.
I say this because in a lot of ways the design of a game would need to change dramatically to effectively pull off an open class system in a title with group play. One of the reasons I'm looking forward to DnL is that I hope they can do this so I can create a character I envision, not the closest stock likeness.
Agreed, classes can help to create and define a players identity in a MMORPG, especially if there is clear demarcation of roles and abilities between them.
In EVE I'm a pretty fair "healer" (ship repper) with with no classes it's hard to build such an identity.
Others are terrific tacklers, others EM or other disruption/debuffing experts, but again no identity behind their prowess.
When I was a healer in DAOC I was recognized by many for my talent and never suffered for a group invite. (and not because they were in short supply as they weren't)
Heck as a Skald I made a name as a solid killer as the class has a pair of instant DD spells along with being a speed class that make it perfect for delivering the final killing blows on an opponent.
So while classes are not necessary, I find there are positives to having them in virtual worlds.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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I have personally always seen classes as a crutch for designers who can't balance a skill-based system, but lately I've been seeing people saying things like 'X game needs more diverse and intersting classes', 'X game's classes are so generic', 'X game will fail because it has bad classes', etc. A properly designed and balanced skill system intrinsically gives the ultimate freedom and diversity of choices that no class system could ever rival, so I'd like to know what the point of classes is; why are people demanding better classes over no classes?
Classes come from pen and paper D&D and basically when computer gaming started to try and copy the pen and paper rollplaying system they copied classes and because people bought games non-stop they never bothered to change it much and its been in so long that people assume its the best way to go and has been battle tested against other options when in fact it hasnt.
skill based systems are by far much better
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The more complex and original a game is, the more useful classes are for people learning the ropes.
The best games out there have classless options but also class-like templates to get you started until you figure it out for yourself. In the MMO group, The Secret World did this very well and in single player RPGs Divinity Original Sin also did it this way.
and what are these "best" games?...The secret world was garbage....there was like a small handful of decent builds, most were useless.....Like others have said, the classless systems started showing up when players started whining about not being able to do everything themselves and not being able to play solo.
What do you all consider the best games that do not have classes?
SWG pre-NGE.
Yet its weaknesses were exactly as Cleffy described. Every release would bring forth a new dominant skillset until the next release would nerf it and pretty much create a new one. Meanwhile, those of us who longed to have a Han Solo character with Pistoleer/Smuggler builds, for example, would just get flattened.
Secret World is pretty similar.
So... if you want to build for numbers, classless games are for you. But if you want to build for a character design you like, you're probably going to get rolled. To me this is kinda ironic, since the point of having a classless system, for me anyway, is about being able to create the exact character you want.
The more complex and original a game is, the more useful classes are for people learning the ropes.
The best games out there have classless options but also class-like templates to get you started until you figure it out for yourself. In the MMO group, The Secret World did this very well and in single player RPGs Divinity Original Sin also did it this way.
and what are these "best" games?...The secret world was garbage....there was like a small handful of decent builds, most were useless.....Like others have said, the classless systems started showing up when players started whining about not being able to do everything themselves and not being able to play solo.
Show me on the doll where TSW touched you.
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I think "classes" serve some useful purposes, which could all be avoided by using "competencies" instead (where you test to specific levels of... healing, dps, damage absorption, etc).
Identification by others. When you a group is looking for someone to complement their skillbase, they can advertise for specific classes (could be better served by the "competencies I mentioned).
Easier skill balancing by developers. Games seem determined to have balanced classes where each is roughly equivalent to the others for damage output and survivability. If you're committed to that path, then limiting what skills can be grouped together at once is almost a necessary crutch so developers can manage the min-max possibilities.
Roleplay. It can be satisfying to claim that you're a "ranger" or a "paladin" or a "mage". This need perhaps can be served by competencies instead. The single words that describe a class, though, is a very convenient shorthand for communicating your character behavior.
If a game isn't committed to skill balancing, then it doesn't really matter what min-max "perfect build" can be cobbled together from various skills. Players wouldn't expect every character/player to be the perfect dps unit or the perfect cog in their raid machine. Instead, players would rely on ingenuity to achieve goals at each separate encounter.
The more complex and original a game is, the more useful classes are for people learning the ropes.
The best games out there have classless options but also class-like templates to get you started until you figure it out for yourself. In the MMO group, The Secret World did this very well and in single player RPGs Divinity Original Sin also did it this way.
and what are these "best" games?...The secret world was garbage....there was like a small handful of decent builds, most were useless.....Like others have said, the classless systems started showing up when players started whining about not being able to do everything themselves and not being able to play solo.
Given the number of good games that are skillbased now I basically over the course of about 4 years now refuse to play games with classes. Classes now feels like an antiquated system which as I say for me is almost always an instant no.
are the games I play good in my view? absolutely! are they successful? I dont know or give a fuck. 'American Idol' and McDonalds are both 'successful' so there is something I dont care about.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Sure we can make a game where everyone can do everything but then why would you need other people? Classes is part of making MMOs interdependent on other gamers. To bring people together. So when you get to end game, you have not soloed from start to finish and say. "Im not sure what to do now"
Sure we can make a game where everyone can do everything but then why would you need other people? Classes is part of making MMOs interdependent on other gamers. To bring people together. So when you get to end game, you have not soloed from start to finish and say. "Im not sure what to do now"
for the very same reason why people in real life need each other but in real life dont have 'classes'
The trick is to make it nearly impossible to be skill strong in all aspects. Its really not that complicated or hard. interdependence (like life) is completely possible in a skill based system and is fairly common in my experience
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Like other's have stated, classes give definite direction and can create a role for your character. Classes can also give a character a certain flair. Oh hey, the monk is the martial arts guy, where the knight is the heavy armored guy, where the wizard is the classic mage, but the druid uses nature based magic, etc.
You can achieve similar goals in a skill based system, but at the same time, most people will just follow the approved template, since there will always be "the best spec".
Asheron's Call is a good example of a skill based game. There were multiple specs that worked very well. "Best spec" opened up with new skills and tinkering added to the game too.
Elder Scrolls is another good example of decent skill based.
I would say DAoC is a great example of class based, but without feeling homogenized. The fact that each realm had different classes made this especially true. My biggest problem with the class system in DAoC was that unless you were with friends, it could be hard to get a group as a stealther both assassin and archer, since the perceived value of each was low.
Classes are just an extension of "roles" and roles are a natural part of life.
Different roles are needed because life offers so many different challenges that no one single role could beat every challenge. From past research into the matter, the average human being is only capable of mastering 2-3 things in their life if they try hard, but most of us don't try hard and never master anything.
In the MMO context, there are many different roles we might want to fulfil:
Damage dealer
Healer
Tank
Buffer
Debuffer
Crowd Control
Crafter
Merchant
Gatherer / Farmer
Entertainer
Political Leader
Sadly, MMO classes tend to only focus on combat roles when it comes to classes, but each class tends to be an expression of a role and so I'm happy with that. The problem, as others have said, is that many classes have been watered down, either through being capable of multiple roles or having to balance with other roles.
Now, skill-based systems can work too. There are a few problems with it. Primary problem is that designing content becomes a lot harder - if you balance the content for dedicated roles then the majority of your playerbase will fail because they have more generic, balanced roles, but if you balance it for generic templates then the specialised players find it trivial. But, if you're making content with roles in mind, you may as well have classes.
I genuinely believe SWG had the best approach. It basically had classes (professions) but with it's skill points system, you could master 2-3 of them at once which both mirrors real life and adds nice variation and uniqueness to each player. You could master complimentary professions, e.g. focusing everything on melee, resulting in a very strong melee character, or you could master more diverse professions like swordsman and armoursmith, allowing a wider variety of gameplay but diminished results / effectiveness compared to highly specialised builds.
Sure we can make a game where everyone can do everything but then why would you need other people? Classes is part of making MMOs interdependent on other gamers. To bring people together. So when you get to end game, you have not soloed from start to finish and say. "Im not sure what to do now"
for the very same reason why people in real life need each other but in real life dont have 'classes'
The trick is to make it nearly impossible to be skill strong in all aspects. Its really not that complicated or hard. interdependence (like life) is completely possible in a skill based system and is fairly common in my experience
Your wrong we do have classes. Sales people have a standard set of skills, nurses have a standard set of skills. How often does a doctor go to school to become a nurse so he can do both jobs? Classes are needed in MMOs (or skill set groups) to make it easier to balance a game. If it was to much like real life where you can pick from any skill. Then skills get nurfed to keep things from being OP. Every time players come up with a combo of skills that over shines, only option is to nurf them. Doing so makes other combos using the same skills useless and lowers options. I have played many a skill based MMO and they all do this process over and over till they suck. Classes is the better option.
The entire idea of classes were to offer a unique approach to how they're played. They have long since been marginalized by the years of crying for balance. Now they're all same same, but different, but still same.
One of the best examples of that was DAoC's healer. It was originally that - a specialized healer. Grouping without the healer left you at a bit of a disadvantage, so they were in demand, However, if you were a healer and a group was not available, you wer kind of screwed because you leveled painfully slow solo. The healer gradually became more combat viable and less specialized to shoehorn it into the MMO grind progression system.
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Classes are there because people will do anything to optimize and get more powerful, right up to the point where they quit the game in disgust of what they're doing.
The devs need to limit people's ability to optimize so that they'll have more fun.
Sure we can make a game where everyone can do everything but then why would you need other people? Classes is part of making MMOs interdependent on other gamers. To bring people together. So when you get to end game, you have not soloed from start to finish and say. "Im not sure what to do now"
for the very same reason why people in real life need each other but in real life dont have 'classes'
The trick is to make it nearly impossible to be skill strong in all aspects. Its really not that complicated or hard. interdependence (like life) is completely possible in a skill based system and is fairly common in my experience
Your wrong we do have classes. Sales people have a standard set of skills, nurses have a standard set of skills. How often does a doctor go to school to become a nurse so he can do both jobs? Classes are needed in MMOs (or skill set groups) to make it easier to balance a game. If it was to much like real life where you can pick from any skill. Then skills get nurfed to keep things from being OP. Every time players come up with a combo of skills that over shines, only option is to nurf them. Doing so makes other combos using the same skills useless and lowers options. I have played many a skill based MMO and they all do this process over and over till they suck. Classes is the better option.
that is a skill based system which is my entire point.
You are not born with a 'class' that you can never change. you go to school get your skills spend a great deal of time learning and then you become X BUT you CAN change it.
That is what I mean by 'being nearly impossible to be good at all things'
just like life. life is a skill based system that 'looks like' classes only because it takes nearly a lifetime to be an expert in one thing. Skill based can be the same way.
The faulty assumption here most likely based from playing poorly design skill systems is that its actually possible in a lifetime to have high skills in all items.
I should add that a skill based system can be flexible in regards to how hard it is to specialize. it can take a real life lifetime or it can take 10 mins depending on developer design.
Also like in real life regarding combat I might be a great sniper and a great gunner but its not realistic for me to be able to carry both, so in battle I do one or the other, not both
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
There is more to classes than just making it 'easier' for the developers. A classless system ends up with everyone having the same exact build, or being gimped with any other build. When the devs try to fix it, a few days later there is another 'ultimate' build, and everyone switches to it. It is bad enough is a game with a class system, way worse in one without.
Also, many, many players have preferences for how they like to play. Personally I like playing tanks and healers. Nothing wrong with damage dealers, they just are not my cup of tea. I can go into a game with classes and know which classes are going to be the most fun for me.
Yeah, I know, I try DPS classes for every game I play, and other than City of Heroes I have yet to find a game that I really enjoy playing a DPSer. If the ultimate build is a DPS build, that means that my self designed tank and self designed healer have no chance for fun in PvP. I like PvE better, but that does not mean I avoid PvP. I have fun with that, and consider PvP a terrific way to breathe life into a game I am getting bored of.
That is complete nonsense! Take UO, skill based system had some of the best pvp I have experienced in a game. There were many ways to make a successful build in UO, there were no cookie cutter ones. In a rock paper scissors world you have to accept that any build has drawbacks too.
Classes are strictly for lazy developers who don't want to take the time to put together a good skill system.
OK, lets talk about UO. I never played it, but I just spent the last 3 years playing Forsaken World and then ESO with a friend who played UO for about 12 years, from day one. He told us on voice chat over and over how they would design builds that were unstoppable, and how six of them would take on 20 normal players and beat them into the ground. When the devs would adjust the game, they would adjust their builds. They would experiment for hours or even days on test until they were satisfied with their builds, and then go tear it up.
I doubt my friend and his guild were the only ones doing this. Since it was an open world PvP game, his guild, and him in particular, often had a price on their head. He thought that was part of the fun! But if you went in looking for a WoWish, or ESish type of experience, you would be sorely disappointed, although having an ultimate build would make it easier.
My memories of UO pre Trammel were that Archer/Mage ruled the world
I have personally always seen classes as a crutch for designers who can't balance a skill-based system, but lately I've been seeing people saying things like 'X game needs more diverse and intersting classes', 'X game's classes are so generic', 'X game will fail because it has bad classes', etc. A properly designed and balanced skill system intrinsically gives the ultimate freedom and diversity of choices that no class system could ever rival, so I'd like to know what the point of classes is; why are people demanding better classes over no classes?
Skill-based systems are just consistently worse than class-based ones.
The words you're tossing around (bland, generic, uninteresting) apply more to skill-based systems than class-based ones.
You seem to confuse the fact that if you do something bad or generic, it's going to suck regardless of whether your system is skill-based or class-based.
Nobody would argue that skill-based systems don't provide more freedom. But it's exactly that freedom which causes them to be more bland than class-based systems.
Whereas classes can be designed as very distinct sets of capabilities that feel different from one another. In WOW, Warrior tanks play very differently from Death Knights. Warriors mitigate a ton of damage but have weaker self-healing, whereas Death Knights are the opposite. In a skill-based game players would simply choose the Warrior's mitigation skill with the DK's healing skill and all tanks would use that combination of the two best abilities. But as two distinct classes they're able to be different.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sure we can make a game where everyone can do everything but then why would you need other people? Classes is part of making MMOs interdependent on other gamers. To bring people together. So when you get to end game, you have not soloed from start to finish and say. "Im not sure what to do now"
for the very same reason why people in real life need each other but in real life dont have 'classes'
The trick is to make it nearly impossible to be skill strong in all aspects. Its really not that complicated or hard. interdependence (like life) is completely possible in a skill based system and is fairly common in my experience
Your wrong we do have classes. Sales people have a standard set of skills, nurses have a standard set of skills. How often does a doctor go to school to become a nurse so he can do both jobs? Classes are needed in MMOs (or skill set groups) to make it easier to balance a game. If it was to much like real life where you can pick from any skill. Then skills get nurfed to keep things from being OP. Every time players come up with a combo of skills that over shines, only option is to nurf them. Doing so makes other combos using the same skills useless and lowers options. I have played many a skill based MMO and they all do this process over and over till they suck. Classes is the better option.
that is a skill based system which is my entire point.
You are not born with a 'class' that you can never change. you go to school get your skills spend a great deal of time learning and then you become X BUT you CAN change it.
That is what I mean by 'being nearly impossible to be good at all things'
just like life. life is a skill based system that 'looks like' classes only because it takes nearly a lifetime to be an expert in one thing. Skill based can be the same way.
The faulty assumption here most likely based from playing poorly design skill systems is that its actually possible in a lifetime to have high skills in all items.
I should add that a skill based system can be flexible in regards to how hard it is to specialize. it can take a real life lifetime or it can take 10 mins depending on developer design.
Also like in real life regarding combat I might be a great sniper and a great gunner but its not realistic for me to be able to carry both, so in battle I do one or the other, not both
In my 17 years of MMOing I have yet to see a skill based game not turn into a nerf bat game. Where the above scenario I mentioned does not happen. Its not about doing a skill based game well. Its just not possible to make a fair balanced game that way. Much like RL where you can learn any skill is not fair. There is rich and poor. Powerful and pray. Its why the majority of MMO use a class system. Bundled skill sets are a batter project for a balanced game.
Comments
When I read "Classes are strictly for lazy developers..." I started getting my popcorn and beverage ready.
Can't want to see what other Nietzsche level quotes follow.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not sure about the "you all" part, some already mentioned TSW, I'd add CO as well (based on the afforementioned Hero system
Both of those are piling up the in-game skills in a heap, then allow the characters to cherry-pick the skills they want to use - with some minor rules / restrictions.
The main difference between them I think is how they're handling the so-called "altitis"
In a word: Identity
That said, while I would not say classes are a sign of lazy developers I would say, depending on what the goal of the meta game is, it's a sign of pragmatic developers. If you want to have a role based system, open or level-less character progression is going to be tough when considering "outside the box" builds and have it relatively comparable to others.
As an example: I want to essentially play a Paladin but more caster/support and the ability to dual wield swords. I'm looking at this from a group play aspect mind you. I understand that to have this build and to trade off I would need to be squishier. I can find this build in two titles that I can think of: Archage and SotA. The problem in AA is that you're mixing two class archetypes together so you're not as effective, especially the way gear stats work. In SotA it's a lot more doable but unfortunately I find the game a bit bland and boring so I have not gotten my build up enough to see if it's viable.
I say this because in a lot of ways the design of a game would need to change dramatically to effectively pull off an open class system in a title with group play. One of the reasons I'm looking forward to DnL is that I hope they can do this so I can create a character I envision, not the closest stock likeness.
I doubt my friend and his guild were the only ones doing this. Since it was an open world PvP game, his guild, and him in particular, often had a price on their head. He thought that was part of the fun! But if you went in looking for a WoWish, or ESish type of experience, you would be sorely disappointed, although having an ultimate build would make it easier.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
In EVE I'm a pretty fair "healer" (ship repper) with with no classes it's hard to build such an identity.
Others are terrific tacklers, others EM or other disruption/debuffing experts, but again no identity behind their prowess.
When I was a healer in DAOC I was recognized by many for my talent and never suffered for a group invite. (and not because they were in short supply as they weren't)
Heck as a Skald I made a name as a solid killer as the class has a pair of instant DD spells along with being a speed class that make it perfect for delivering the final killing blows on an opponent.
So while classes are not necessary, I find there are positives to having them in virtual worlds.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
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skill based systems are by far much better
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Yet its weaknesses were exactly as Cleffy described. Every release would bring forth a new dominant skillset until the next release would nerf it and pretty much create a new one. Meanwhile, those of us who longed to have a Han Solo character with Pistoleer/Smuggler builds, for example, would just get flattened.
Secret World is pretty similar.
So... if you want to build for numbers, classless games are for you. But if you want to build for a character design you like, you're probably going to get rolled. To me this is kinda ironic, since the point of having a classless system, for me anyway, is about being able to create the exact character you want.
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- Identification by others. When you a group is looking for someone to complement their skillbase, they can advertise for specific classes (could be better served by the "competencies I mentioned).
- Easier skill balancing by developers. Games seem determined to have balanced classes where each is roughly equivalent to the others for damage output and survivability. If you're committed to that path, then limiting what skills can be grouped together at once is almost a necessary crutch so developers can manage the min-max possibilities.
- Roleplay. It can be satisfying to claim that you're a "ranger" or a "paladin" or a "mage". This need perhaps can be served by competencies instead. The single words that describe a class, though, is a very convenient shorthand for communicating your character behavior.
If a game isn't committed to skill balancing, then it doesn't really matter what min-max "perfect build" can be cobbled together from various skills. Players wouldn't expect every character/player to be the perfect dps unit or the perfect cog in their raid machine. Instead, players would rely on ingenuity to achieve goals at each separate encounter.are the games I play good in my view? absolutely!
are they successful? I dont know or give a fuck. 'American Idol' and McDonalds are both 'successful' so there is something I dont care about.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The trick is to make it nearly impossible to be skill strong in all aspects. Its really not that complicated or hard. interdependence (like life) is completely possible in a skill based system and is fairly common in my experience
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You can achieve similar goals in a skill based system, but at the same time, most people will just follow the approved template, since there will always be "the best spec".
Asheron's Call is a good example of a skill based game. There were multiple specs that worked very well. "Best spec" opened up with new skills and tinkering added to the game too.
Elder Scrolls is another good example of decent skill based.
I would say DAoC is a great example of class based, but without feeling homogenized. The fact that each realm had different classes made this especially true. My biggest problem with the class system in DAoC was that unless you were with friends, it could be hard to get a group as a stealther both assassin and archer, since the perceived value of each was low.
Different roles are needed because life offers so many different challenges that no one single role could beat every challenge. From past research into the matter, the average human being is only capable of mastering 2-3 things in their life if they try hard, but most of us don't try hard and never master anything.
In the MMO context, there are many different roles we might want to fulfil:
- Damage dealer
- Healer
- Tank
- Buffer
- Debuffer
- Crowd Control
- Crafter
- Merchant
- Gatherer / Farmer
- Entertainer
- Political Leader
Sadly, MMO classes tend to only focus on combat roles when it comes to classes, but each class tends to be an expression of a role and so I'm happy with that. The problem, as others have said, is that many classes have been watered down, either through being capable of multiple roles or having to balance with other roles.Now, skill-based systems can work too. There are a few problems with it. Primary problem is that designing content becomes a lot harder - if you balance the content for dedicated roles then the majority of your playerbase will fail because they have more generic, balanced roles, but if you balance it for generic templates then the specialised players find it trivial. But, if you're making content with roles in mind, you may as well have classes.
I genuinely believe SWG had the best approach. It basically had classes (professions) but with it's skill points system, you could master 2-3 of them at once which both mirrors real life and adds nice variation and uniqueness to each player. You could master complimentary professions, e.g. focusing everything on melee, resulting in a very strong melee character, or you could master more diverse professions like swordsman and armoursmith, allowing a wider variety of gameplay but diminished results / effectiveness compared to highly specialised builds.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Also, like others have mentioned, it's a lot easier for developers to balance content when they know what classes are engaging in it.
The devs need to limit people's ability to optimize so that they'll have more fun.
You are not born with a 'class' that you can never change. you go to school get your skills spend a great deal of time learning and then you become X BUT you CAN change it.
That is what I mean by 'being nearly impossible to be good at all things'
just like life. life is a skill based system that 'looks like' classes only because it takes nearly a lifetime to be an expert in one thing. Skill based can be the same way.
The faulty assumption here most likely based from playing poorly design skill systems is that its actually possible in a lifetime to have high skills in all items.
I should add that a skill based system can be flexible in regards to how hard it is to specialize. it can take a real life lifetime or it can take 10 mins depending on developer design.
Also like in real life regarding combat I might be a great sniper and a great gunner but its not realistic for me to be able to carry both, so in battle I do one or the other, not both
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
The words you're tossing around (bland, generic, uninteresting) apply more to skill-based systems than class-based ones.
You seem to confuse the fact that if you do something bad or generic, it's going to suck regardless of whether your system is skill-based or class-based.
Nobody would argue that skill-based systems don't provide more freedom. But it's exactly that freedom which causes them to be more bland than class-based systems.
Whereas classes can be designed as very distinct sets of capabilities that feel different from one another. In WOW, Warrior tanks play very differently from Death Knights. Warriors mitigate a ton of damage but have weaker self-healing, whereas Death Knights are the opposite. In a skill-based game players would simply choose the Warrior's mitigation skill with the DK's healing skill and all tanks would use that combination of the two best abilities. But as two distinct classes they're able to be different.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee