<snip> @Mendel: @SEANMCAD put it very well - in a game without mythical/magical creatures, the PvE development focus would be on big game, which can be very intersting and challenging when the work is put into them (a good example of what it could be like is the scene in the Leonardo DiCaprio movie 'The Revenant' in which he fights a grizzly bear in the 1820s frontier).
I think you missed my point. I am just not interested in hunting wildlife as a means to progress. I need some kind of PvE target that is equipped to provide a fair fight. Claws vs Pistol? Pistol wins. Fangs vs Rifle? Rifle wins. Even if you miss, the noise and smell would drive most natural animals off. Gunpowder based ranged weapons essentially took much of the 'danger' out of wild animals. It simply becomes a Big Game hunting sim, without lore. (Yes, people did get killed by wildlife, but that doesn't make it the basis of good game).
Another thing. How would it take multiple players to hunt Big Game? Lots of lousy shots? Respawn rate faster than a shooting gallery? Caddies for my gun bag? Using big game hunting as a PvE lure seems to take the multiplayer aspect out of the MMORPG.
trust me when I say there are games out there that make hunting wild game very engaging not like the mega shit crap bullshit you see in most top AAA titles.
I am talking, if you miss or scare them which you likely will then you will die that night because of no food level of hard.
Hunters during the Froniter days where no hobbyists for fuck sake.
There is a lot to it, not least of which having you face eaten off by a bear of which you have nearly zero chance against.
oh snap...time to respawn
Post edited by SEANMCAD on
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The whole wild west theme needs 'more' to make it interesting, even assuming a dev group took the risk making an MMO based on the wild west, the specifics the op suggests would make the game even less tempting to try. A wild west in space theme could work, something in the style of Firefly could do it, indeed, playing in the 'Firefly' universe could even be fun. But actual wild west, not fun, and with the features described, would be horrible, i can't imagine any dev group trying to make a game like that, it would imo, be such a recipe for failure that i can't imagine anyone putting up the funding for it, let alone wanting to work on it. O.o
A week is a bit much. The point is to allow intrigue without ganking running rampant. .
Put pvp as an option .. no more ganking running rampant. A solution used in many games. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.
Seem like you are with circular argument. Obviously if want to allow ganking but discouraging it... how does removing that option to gank get me there? I have seen this argument over and over. Why not just remove what you're trying to limit? Because obviously I want some ganking to happen and be possible.
Put pvp as an option still allow ganking ... obviously .. with the caveat that only those who are willing to be ganked will be ganked.
Or are you suggesting that you should gank players .. who are playing games for entertainment ... whether they like it or not?
How do players give consent to being killed in FPS? You answer that and you have your answer. And you can have pure coop FPS like older Rainbow Six.
The whole wild west theme needs 'more' to make it interesting, even assuming a dev group took the risk making an MMO based on the wild west, the specifics the op suggests would make the game even less tempting to try. A wild west in space theme could work, something in the style of Firefly could do it, indeed, playing in the 'Firefly' universe could even be fun. But actual wild west, not fun, and with the features described, would be horrible, i can't imagine any dev group trying to make a game like that, it would imo, be such a recipe for failure that i can't imagine anyone putting up the funding for it, let alone wanting to work on it. O.o
Basically related to History Frontier days is likely the most if not one of the most interesting periods in human history thus your opinion would basically mean any MMO based on reality of human history would all be 'terrible' which is fair enough I just wanted to make the significance of this time period in history into perspective.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
There are far more interesting times throughout human history that I believe would make for a good MMO.
I cant think of any that would be more so.
Having said that, the take away that I want to leave with people is that 'simulators' can all be extreemly more compelling then they are. It doesnt have to be a space alien with fangs in order for something to be very challenging and engaging.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
How do players give consent to being killed in FPS? You answer that and you have your answer. And you can have pure coop FPS like older Rainbow Six.
By clicking on the "death match" button? Those don't, click on the "single player campaign" button. For pure coop FPS .. they click on the "buy" button.
PVP definitely works in games that have a faction based system or simply a ffa with heavier penalties(full loot, exp loss, whatever). Some of my favorite pvp moments in MMO:
1. SWG: Sitting in a cantina rebel scum that I was and a storm trooper npc comes in, scans and outs me. Oh good times as it erupts into a bar brawl that quickly gets taken outside. We fled but we took some with us.
2. Shadowbane: Farming some npcs near a graveyard with 3 of my friends. 5 centaurs( i think thats what they were, its been awhile) approach as a gang. We couldn't run as they were faster and they initiated dialogue. They wanted money for hunting in their territory or theyd attack. We had a long and interesting talk that ended up with us capitulating and giving them a share of the loot. No shots were fired but the tension was awesome.
3. UO: The whole game really. Farming in a dungeon with a guy thats been near you for hours mining and farming as well. I get a bit overrun by mobs and he sees the opening and tries to drop me. I finish him, the mobs finish me. We both rush back to find someone had looted both of us. Good times.
4. Wow. First couple weeks of release on a pvp server. I kept running into the same guy(and many others of course) an undead rogue with my nelf hunter. Our ganks and battles were glorious. Usually one on one, open world amidst questing and gathering.
Not only can MMO pvp be done like this I have to say it has led to some of my most memorable gaming moments. Not fully PVP focused but the suspense and tension that at any time something could happen and I could stand a fighting chance is just amazing.
Now imagine any number of towns in a wild west game where anyone could attack at anytime. Your allegiance is hidden as your pvp flag isnt on. You havent done anything bad here lately so no one knows you are an outlaw. Suddenly you see a couple of fellas running out of a band Flagged outlaw status. Maybe some lawmen, npc's and pc's alike, chasing them guns blazing. Clearly they just robbed the place and it's up to you; do you jump to their aid providing some cover fire and maybe forming some new friends or do you wait for an opportunity to take a potshot at the sheriff during the distractions so you can loot and scoot like a scavenger. Or do you simply go on your merry way, after all you have no dog in this fight, and wander into the bar looking for a certain outlaw who has been seen in this area and has a sizeable bounty on his head hoping to find him and take him out to gather a bit of favor with the law, a bit of renown and a hefty chunk of cash.
Not even a little bit interested. I'd rather have a contemporary game like TSW with a better combat system. Or a CyberPunk game with a complex implant system and dark world.
You had me interested up until AFK crafting and the extreme death penalty. I don't think anyone would play a game where you lost everything in your bank when you died, that seems beyond ridiculous.
@TheFunky1: The way you explained it in that post was much clearer; that sort of system really does sound like it would work well and provide another dimension to the gameplay. It would have to be unlinke traditional factions to make sense though, in that rather than grinding tasks for unlawful influence/reputation you'd mostly just be assaulting the lawful.
@Joseph_Kerr: Would being able to protect your assets by forming co-operatives/gangs with other players resolve that, as suggested by @Gamer54321? As for the AFK crafting, could you tell me why you dislike that concept?
"Perhaps also Indian village raiding, but that may be too controversial."
I once got a warning from this site, for reporting another wild west thread as offensive. The Mod didn't understand how over half (the majority) of this country's population could find this time period offensive. What is this time period best known for? The Genocide and Theft of Treaty Land of this country's Native People. The enSlavement and near Genocide of other members of this country's populations, both black and Mexican.
Listen, MMO cleaned versions of the west have been tried. When tested, the Klan demographic protested that their time of glory had been altered. This response appalled me.
My own mother grew up on a farm with no indoor plumbing when she left home at 19 in the 50's. The world at the turn of the century hadn't changed much where my parent grew up. So I grew up hearing stories of the wild west as modern history. And I have personal experience with attempts at this type of game. So I spit on the ground and say no.
I still consider the site mod who responded to my complaint insensitive to cultural differences.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I see what you are saying but the fact was there were plenty of natives and immigrants around and they aligned all sorts of different ways. Chinese gangs, mexican banditos and natives that declared war on anyone entering their territory regardless of skin color. On the other side of that coin there were friendly tribes and settlers of all that aforementioned that were simply peaceful folk trying to make a living. I think as long as you don't lump them all together and make them single minded it could be fairly historically accurate without being insensitive.
I'd just totally avoid any civil war references, not because I think history is something people should forget or ignore, but because it opens up way too many other cans of worms when it comes to a game.
Nothing wrong with npc's or player characters of all races creeds or colors being included in a way as long as you don't go for a cowboys vs indians game unless its some sort of baseball/football mashup.
I personally think any genre of game is interesting and can work if it has solid mechanics, smooth gameplay and something for people to work towards and accomplish. Ive played countless sci fi games, fantasy games with elves and dwarves, dinosaurs and cavemen and ww2 era historical types. Zombies, oh yeah there are a few zombie games out there. The settings mattered so little it was the gameplay that determined whether I enjoyed myself or not.
I'm sorry but I would not be interested in a western themed MMO. I don't think it's been done before but I really don't like westerns (with the exception of those awesome movies with a very gorgeous Emilio Estevez and Kiefer Sutherland from when I was a kid. You know, back when they didn't look like death warmed over).
I suppose, one solution to the harsh death penalties, could be to make assets family or corporation owned, so even if one or a few dies, the assets are still in control of the same group of players that owned it in the first place.
Having played Darkfall for about 4 years I have completely given up on there being any hope at all between pvp and pve. they need to be completely separate in my view.
A lot of great ideas but it never fails someone in the pvp world will find a way to exploit it so that they can pick on pve players
The player base since mmorpgs became main stream is not mature enough to handle a proper mix anymore..
I suppose, one solution to the harsh death penalties, could be to make assets family or corporation owned, so even if one or a few dies, the assets are still in control of the same group of players that owned it in the first place.
Having played Darkfall for about 4 years I have completely given up on there being any hope at all between pvp and pve. they need to be completely separate in my view.
A lot of great ideas but it never fails someone in the pvp world will find a way to exploit it so that they can pick on pve players
The player base since mmorpgs became main stream is not mature enough to handle a proper mix anymore..
Since MMO players are of wildly differing ages and levels of maturity, thats inevitable, and always will be. Its why PVP in MMO's needs to be structured, and, imo, entirely voluntary without exception.
I suppose, one solution to the harsh death penalties, could be to make assets family or corporation owned, so even if one or a few dies, the assets are still in control of the same group of players that owned it in the first place.
Having played Darkfall for about 4 years I have completely given up on there being any hope at all between pvp and pve. they need to be completely separate in my view.
A lot of great ideas but it never fails someone in the pvp world will find a way to exploit it so that they can pick on pve players
The player base since mmorpgs became main stream is not mature enough to handle a proper mix anymore..
Since MMO players are of wildly differing ages and levels of maturity, thats inevitable, and always will be. Its why PVP in MMO's needs to be structured, and, imo, entirely voluntary without exception.
It doesn't really need to be structured per say. It does on the other hand need to be wholly voluntary. I dunno why sandbox games seem to lack the foresight or the overall sight of this given the most popular sandbox MMORPG to date was literally SWG the game that invented consensual PVP flagging (though there we pvp planets and the like too)
Also mainstream gaming brought about a lot more immature players
I see what you are saying but the fact was there were plenty of natives and immigrants around and they aligned all sorts of different ways. Chinese gangs, mexican banditos and natives that declared war on anyone entering their territory regardless of skin color. On the other side of that coin there were friendly tribes and settlers of all that aforementioned that were simply peaceful folk trying to make a living. I think as long as you don't lump them all together and make them single minded it could be fairly historically accurate without being insensitive.
I'd just totally avoid any civil war references, not because I think history is something people should forget or ignore, but because it opens up way too many other cans of worms when it comes to a game.
Nothing wrong with npc's or player characters of all races creeds or colors being included in a way as long as you don't go for a cowboys vs indians game unless its some sort of baseball/football mashup.
I personally think any genre of game is interesting and can work if it has solid mechanics, smooth gameplay and something for people to work towards and accomplish. Ive played countless sci fi games, fantasy games with elves and dwarves, dinosaurs and cavemen and ww2 era historical types. Zombies, oh yeah there are a few zombie games out there. The settings mattered so little it was the gameplay that determined whether I enjoyed myself or not.
You can't separate out the aftermath of the civil war from the wild west the two are inextricably linked. Also Mexicans are not foreign bandits, they were another conquered people trying to regain their independence. The whole period is a racist nightmare and should not be considered for a MMORPG.
<snip> @Mendel: @SEANMCAD put it very well - in a game without mythical/magical creatures, the PvE development focus would be on big game, which can be very intersting and challenging when the work is put into them (a good example of what it could be like is the scene in the Leonardo DiCaprio movie 'The Revenant' in which he fights a grizzly bear in the 1820s frontier).
I think you missed my point. I am just not interested in hunting wildlife as a means to progress. I need some kind of PvE target that is equipped to provide a fair fight. Claws vs Pistol? Pistol wins. Fangs vs Rifle? Rifle wins. Even if you miss, the noise and smell would drive most natural animals off. Gunpowder based ranged weapons essentially took much of the 'danger' out of wild animals. It simply becomes a Big Game hunting sim, without lore. (Yes, people did get killed by wildlife, but that doesn't make it the basis of good game).
Another thing. How would it take multiple players to hunt Big Game? Lots of lousy shots? Respawn rate faster than a shooting gallery? Caddies for my gun bag? Using big game hunting as a PvE lure seems to take the multiplayer aspect out of the MMORPG.
trust me when I say there are games out there that make hunting wild game very engaging not like the mega shit crap bullshit you see in most top AAA titles.
I am talking, if you miss or scare them which you likely will then you will die that night because of no food level of hard.
Hunters during the Froniter days where no hobbyists for fuck sake.
There is a lot to it, not least of which having you face eaten off by a bear of which you have nearly zero chance against.
oh snap...time to respawn
Again, the point is missed. I have no interest in hunting big game, especially in an MMORPG. It doesn't matter how advanced, sophisticated, or detailed the developers make this kind of content, I will not be playing this. It is a bad idea in my opinion. Also, I was replying to @4507 (the originator of this particular thread).
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Generally not interested as it's Wild West, which I have no interest in.
But, for specifics, you've described mechanics that specifically punish people for engaging in the most common activities. PvP for example. The Wild West being a frontier involved a lot of fighting, exploring etc (i.e. pvp) yet you've included very harsh mechanics that punish people for pvping. They either become lawless fugitives for killing people or they lose their house and xp if they die. I mean, why would I engage in pvp which such harsh punishments? I'd have to accept never owning land, combined with a long grind every time I died...fuck that.
Then, the fact that the dealth penalty applies to all deaths, you are encouraging your players to be extremely cautious. That leads to boring gameplay. Can you imagine spending months building up your own farm or gold mine, purchasing the extra land, building your stuff then managing it, only to lose it all because you lagged out and walked off a cliff?
I get the feeling many here are not aware of things like Oklahoma Landrush, Gold Rush, Building of the first transcontinental railroad and havent taken the time to conceptualize how homesteading and building trade routes with the dangers of the west comes into this.
I might be wrong but I think they are thinking of nothing more bank robbery and nothing more
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
I am talking, if you miss or scare them which you likely will then you will die that night because of no food level of hard.
Hunters during the Froniter days where no hobbyists for fuck sake.
There is a lot to it, not least of which having you face eaten off by a bear of which you have nearly zero chance against.
oh snap...time to respawn
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
A wild west in space theme could work, something in the style of Firefly could do it, indeed, playing in the 'Firefly' universe could even be fun.
But actual wild west, not fun, and with the features described, would be horrible, i can't imagine any dev group trying to make a game like that, it would imo, be such a recipe for failure that i can't imagine anyone putting up the funding for it, let alone wanting to work on it. O.o
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Having said that, the take away that I want to leave with people is that 'simulators' can all be extreemly more compelling then they are. It doesnt have to be a space alien with fangs in order for something to be very challenging and engaging.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
There you go.
1. SWG: Sitting in a cantina rebel scum that I was and a storm trooper npc comes in, scans and outs me. Oh good times as it erupts into a bar brawl that quickly gets taken outside. We fled but we took some with us.
2. Shadowbane: Farming some npcs near a graveyard with 3 of my friends. 5 centaurs( i think thats what they were, its been awhile) approach as a gang. We couldn't run as they were faster and they initiated dialogue. They wanted money for hunting in their territory or theyd attack. We had a long and interesting talk that ended up with us capitulating and giving them a share of the loot. No shots were fired but the tension was awesome.
3. UO: The whole game really. Farming in a dungeon with a guy thats been near you for hours mining and farming as well. I get a bit overrun by mobs and he sees the opening and tries to drop me. I finish him, the mobs finish me. We both rush back to find someone had looted both of us. Good times.
4. Wow. First couple weeks of release on a pvp server. I kept running into the same guy(and many others of course) an undead rogue with my nelf hunter. Our ganks and battles were glorious. Usually one on one, open world amidst questing and gathering.
Not only can MMO pvp be done like this I have to say it has led to some of my most memorable gaming moments. Not fully PVP focused but the suspense and tension that at any time something could happen and I could stand a fighting chance is just amazing.
Now imagine any number of towns in a wild west game where anyone could attack at anytime. Your allegiance is hidden as your pvp flag isnt on. You havent done anything bad here lately so no one knows you are an outlaw. Suddenly you see a couple of fellas running out of a band Flagged outlaw status. Maybe some lawmen, npc's and pc's alike, chasing them guns blazing. Clearly they just robbed the place and it's up to you; do you jump to their aid providing some cover fire and maybe forming some new friends or do you wait for an opportunity to take a potshot at the sheriff during the distractions so you can loot and scoot like a scavenger. Or do you simply go on your merry way, after all you have no dog in this fight, and wander into the bar looking for a certain outlaw who has been seen in this area and has a sizeable bounty on his head hoping to find him and take him out to gather a bit of favor with the law, a bit of renown and a hefty chunk of cash.
@Joseph_Kerr: Would being able to protect your assets by forming co-operatives/gangs with other players resolve that, as suggested by @Gamer54321? As for the AFK crafting, could you tell me why you dislike that concept?
I once got a warning from this site, for reporting another wild west thread as offensive. The Mod didn't understand how over half (the majority) of this country's population could find this time period offensive. What is this time period best known for? The Genocide and Theft of Treaty Land of this country's Native People. The enSlavement and near Genocide of other members of this country's populations, both black and Mexican.
Listen, MMO cleaned versions of the west have been tried. When tested, the Klan demographic protested that their time of glory had been altered. This response appalled me.
My own mother grew up on a farm with no indoor plumbing when she left home at 19 in the 50's. The world at the turn of the century hadn't changed much where my parent grew up. So I grew up hearing stories of the wild west as modern history. And I have personal experience with attempts at this type of game. So I spit on the ground and say no.
I still consider the site mod who responded to my complaint insensitive to cultural differences.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I'd just totally avoid any civil war references, not because I think history is something people should forget or ignore, but because it opens up way too many other cans of worms when it comes to a game.
Nothing wrong with npc's or player characters of all races creeds or colors being included in a way as long as you don't go for a cowboys vs indians game unless its some sort of baseball/football mashup.
I personally think any genre of game is interesting and can work if it has solid mechanics, smooth gameplay and something for people to work towards and accomplish. Ive played countless sci fi games, fantasy games with elves and dwarves, dinosaurs and cavemen and ww2 era historical types. Zombies, oh yeah there are a few zombie games out there. The settings mattered so little it was the gameplay that determined whether I enjoyed myself or not.
Also mainstream gaming brought about a lot more immature players
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
But, for specifics, you've described mechanics that specifically punish people for engaging in the most common activities. PvP for example. The Wild West being a frontier involved a lot of fighting, exploring etc (i.e. pvp) yet you've included very harsh mechanics that punish people for pvping. They either become lawless fugitives for killing people or they lose their house and xp if they die. I mean, why would I engage in pvp which such harsh punishments? I'd have to accept never owning land, combined with a long grind every time I died...fuck that.
Then, the fact that the dealth penalty applies to all deaths, you are encouraging your players to be extremely cautious. That leads to boring gameplay. Can you imagine spending months building up your own farm or gold mine, purchasing the extra land, building your stuff then managing it, only to lose it all because you lagged out and walked off a cliff?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I might be wrong but I think they are thinking of nothing more bank robbery and nothing more
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
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