Goodness you're rude there was no need to call me thick but I should return that compliment as a 2 week release between two games of such differing popularity is not at all significant as one game went on to gather millions by its side. It is natural anyone would associate the overhead quest indicator with WoW and not Everquest 2.
If you find that objectionable take that up with WoW's popularity .
Again it doesn't matter whether someone associates quest markers with WOW the fact remains that it was EQ2 that first introduced them in what was the first of the truly theme park mmo.
You can go round and round but unless WOW came before EQ2 you have lost.
If you want to have a conversation last on which mmo was more popular then that's another conversation.
It does matter that overhead quest markers are never called feathers that which was used by Everquest 2 and that players associate the overhead markers with WoW. Even when people criticize WoW they acknowledge that WoW always takes ideas from other games like the mailbox and auction house from FFXI . They make it their own and henceforth it will be known as a WoW thing and other games tried to replicate the success of WoW and not Everquest 2. So even if Everquest 2 introduced something which is still debatable until you know the exact development point the idea was introduced in each game it would never have become a norm until WoW popularized it and other games tried to mimic it. That is a fact that WoW's popularity made sure this method of questing was subsequently used by a whole slew of games.
Everquest 2 was also a very different game when I played it at launch. It however changed to suit the success of WoW and became worse for it because it was a far more unique game and had good crafting and housing which I loved.
Recently in WoW I was announced by an NPC as "the greatest warrior Azeroth has ever known." My first thought was - Azeroth is really screwed.
It's just funny to me how much, unlike some other games I have played, WoW promotes each player as Captain Awesomesauce.
I really preferred EQ, which allowed me to make up my own role as best I could.
Yes because Slayer of Legion in TBC, Arthas in Wrath, Deathwing in Cataclysm, New Garrosh Horde in MoP and Hero of Draenor should be random no name in lore.
If you want EQ go and play it. It is still running no?
I imagine this game with be very much like Vanguard. VG was a great game. It literally had everything that you could hope for in an mmo. However, it had very niche and had a very small player base. I don't have a crystal ball. However, if I was a guessing man. I'd say Pantheon won't turn out much different.
The problem with that logic is that Vanguard was close to unplayable at launch and took a long time to fix, if Wow would have released in that shape and taken so long time fixing up it would too have a small playerbase.
We have zero clue how well a well polished Vanguard would have done because of that (well, it wouldn't have done Wow good anyways so we maybe have a little clue) so explaining it's failure with that it was niche is unfair.
The minimum success factor for a MMO is to be playable at launch and to run acceptably on a normal computer. Failing to do that have hurt a lot of otherwise fine games (Anarchy online comes to mind, all the FunCom MMOs really). So using Vanguard as an example for anything else then that just isn't good.
Of course, Pantheon might fall on the same problem but if it releases in good shape it will do better then Vanguard, the question is just how much better. And, no. It wont do Wow good in any case, I don't see it getting over a million players no matter what happens but it needs to get 250K players to earn some money and be able to actually add new content at a normal MMO pace. That is not impossible.
It does matter that overhead quest markers are never called feathers that which was used by Everquest 2 and that players associate the overhead markers with WoW. Even when people criticize WoW they acknowledge that WoW always takes ideas from other games like the mailbox and auction house from FFXI . They make it their own and henceforth it will be known as a WoW thing and other games tried to replicate the success of WoW and not Everquest 2. So even if Everquest 2 introduced something which is still debatable until you know the exact development point the idea was introduced in each game it would never have become a norm until WoW popularized it and other games tried to mimic it. That is a fact that WoW's popularity made sure this method of questing was subsequently used by a whole slew of games.
Everquest 2 was also a very different game when I played it at launch. It however changed to suit the success of WoW and became worse for it because it was a far more unique game and had good crafting and housing which I loved.
You don't need to give me a lecture EQ2 of WOW I was in both beta. WOW didn't even have an NDA anyone could go to the site and read or watch vids but you could not post.
EQ2 had an NDA but again all of that is irrelevant so you could of saved yourself writing time.
The fact still remains that it was EQ2 that came out before WOW with quest markers. All this rubbish about what people thought of associated with each game is bullshit and irrelevant.
I disagree and you cannot definitely show which game came up with the idea of overhead markers first but it is definitely without doubt that WoW held sway over the decisions of subsequent games and it therefore was far more influential. It makes no difference which game came up with it first as WoW made it possible for its spread by its popularity.
I disagree and you cannot definitely show which game came up with the idea of overhead markers first but it is definitely without doubt that WoW held sway over the decisions of subsequent games and it therefore was far more influential. It makes no difference which game came up with it first as WoW made it possible for its spread by its popularity.
Again all that is irrelevant and just repeating what you have said already.
EQ2 released there game which had npc quest markers before WOW.
Doesn't matter who made it popular the fact is EQ2 came first. You are never going to change that but if you want to keep going round in circles that's up to you.
My point is simple it makes no difference which game came up with it first if that change was not adopted. The reason many games use the overhead quest indicator is because WoW made that in their game and other games wanted to duplicate the success of WoW.
A system in a game be good or bad has no influence on other games and no impact on the development of this genre unless it is adopted. So by itself the overhead quest indicator had no impact if it was not coupled with the popularity of WoW.
Recently in WoW I was announced by an NPC as "the greatest warrior Azeroth has ever known." My first thought was - Azeroth is really screwed.
It's just funny to me how much, unlike some other games I have played, WoW promotes each player as Captain Awesomesauce.
I really preferred EQ, which allowed me to make up my own role as best I could.
Yes because Slayer of Legion in TBC, Arthas in Wrath, Deathwing in Cataclysm, New Garrosh Horde in MoP and Hero of Draenor should be random no name in lore.
If you want EQ go and play it. It is still running no?
Your comments seem to have nothing to do with my post.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
<snip> Your last point is particularly accurate. However I would just like to clarify, when EQ came out, it was not using the term "quest" in the way that we currently interpret quests in MMO's. When they said Quest, they meant in the literal sense of the word, as in "a journey made in search of something" or "a long and difficult effort to find or do something" (per Merriam-Webster).
Point being, getting your buddies together to go down deep into a dungeon and find some phat lewtz was a quest. Unfortunately we've been poisoned by WoW and "modern" mmo's that Quest = "Task to be completed given by an NPC".
I definitely agree that the Everquest developers meant something entirely different than modern games when they applied the term 'quest' to a request from an NPC.
But the mechanisms EQ1 used to make 'quests' difficult were frequently tied to the spawn mechanisms. Almost immediately, quests gained the reputation of 'not being worth it' because they ran through several spawns with notoriously long spawn times. Anyone who waited on Yiz Pon in West Karana to complete their Jeweled Skull knows about this. It was rumored that Yiz Pon was on a 28 day (monthly) timer, like the original game dragons.
Quests requiring items from rare spawns were supposed to help restrict items appearing in game, but in many cases the rarity simply increased the difficulty of the quest beyond the 'value' of the reward.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I disagree and you cannot definitely show which game came up with the idea of overhead markers first but it is definitely without doubt that WoW held sway over the decisions of subsequent games and it therefore was far more influential. It makes no difference which game came up with it first as WoW made it possible for its spread by its popularity.
Again all that is irrelevant and just repeating what you have said already.
EQ2 released there game which had npc quest markers before WOW.
Doesn't matter who made it popular the fact is EQ2 came first. You are never going to change that but if you want to keep going round in circles that's up to you.
Actually knowledgeable people generally attribute quest based progression to AC2 which released 2 years earlier in Nov 2002.
It is believed both EQ2 and WOW borrowed heavily from this title hence their near simultaneous release of the feature in 2004.
Perhaps you were too busy beta testing to take note?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I betaed Asheron Call 2 and I recalled something like that but wasn't very sure about it so I thought I might have imagined it and decided that it may have not been an accurate recollection. Thanks for confirming my memory @Kyleran. It explained why both EQ2 and WoW came up with the same idea around the same time.
EQ was Neverquest not because it lacked quests - the majority of quests were 'not worth' doing. The xp rewards were minimal and the item rewards for the most part useless (it there was an item reward at all).
At one point I did one of the mail runs (to Feerot I think) and it took roughly half an hour (as a bard with speed song). I got a few silver and 100? exp. It was much more rewarding to get a group or even circle kite for that time and end up way ahead of the game reward wise. In later expansions they had some neat multi-stage quests that were worth doing (epics and coldain prayer shawl immediately leap to mind).
People will take the path of least resistance. If it is more efficient to get a group and camp mobs - guess what? People will group and camp mobs. If it is more efficient to solo - people will solo. That's just human nature.
Your last point is particularly accurate. However I would just like to clarify, when EQ came out, it was not using the term "quest" in the way that we currently interpret quests in MMO's. When they said Quest, they meant in the literal sense of the word, as in "a journey made in search of something" or "a long and difficult effort to find or do something" (per Merriam-Webster).
Point being, getting your buddies together to go down deep into a dungeon and find some phat lewtz was a quest. Unfortunately we've been poisoned by WoW and "modern" mmo's that Quest = "Task to be completed given by an NPC".
It's wasn't WOW that bought us that 'quest by npc' it was EQ2 which came out before WOW. Some people like to blame everything on WOW but forget it was EQ2 that came first.
I would like to go back to the way EQ was by saying certain words to an NPC. An updated version of that system would be very interesting.
Dude, they came out within 3 weeks of each other. WoW is the one that popularized it. Stop playing semantics. If we want to be technical, DAOC had some of those style of quests, though it wasn't the only way of leveling. EQ2 was the same, you could actually get decent XP in dungeons and by killing mobs. WoW on the other hand, from the beginning of release, questing was HEADS AND TAILS better than any other activity for gaining XP.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I betaed Asheron Call 2 and I recalled something like that but wasn't very sure about it so I thought I might have imagined it and decided that it may have not been an accurate recollection. Thanks for confirming my memory @Kyleran. It explained why both EQ2 and WoW came up with the same idea around the same time.
well even if you want to dismiss AC2 you still have the big problem of quests in City of Heroes which came out 6 months prior to EQ2 and WOW. Or are you going to say something to dismiss that too.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Goodness you're rude there was no need to call me thick but I should return that compliment as a 2 week release between two games of such differing popularity is not at all significant as one game went on to gather millions by its side. It is natural anyone would associate the overhead quest indicator with WoW and not Everquest 2.
If you find that objectionable take that up with WoW's popularity .
Again it doesn't matter whether someone associates quest markers with WOW the fact remains that it was EQ2 that first introduced them in what was the first of the truly theme park mmo.
You can go round and round but unless WOW came before EQ2 you have lost.
If you want to have a conversation last on which mmo was more popular then that's another conversation.
Take it on the chin lol.
Being the first means squat in this sense, it's what set the precedent of it being popular that matters most, that is most definitely WOW. It wasn't EQ2 that influenced WOW.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I betaed Asheron Call 2 and I recalled something like that but wasn't very sure about it so I thought I might have imagined it and decided that it may have not been an accurate recollection. Thanks for confirming my memory @Kyleran. It explained why both EQ2 and WoW came up with the same idea around the same time.
well even if you want to dismiss AC2 you still have the big problem of quests in City of Heroes which came out 6 months prior to EQ2 and WOW. Or are you going to say something to dismiss that too.
I'll say something to dismiss that. 6 months is a tiny amount of time in the context of a development cycle as enormous as any of those three games. To pretend that CoH was the game that either of those juggernauts (at the time) looked to for inspiration is laughable.
I betaed Asheron Call 2 and I recalled something like that but wasn't very sure about it so I thought I might have imagined it and decided that it may have not been an accurate recollection. Thanks for confirming my memory @Kyleran. It explained why both EQ2 and WoW came up with the same idea around the same time.
well even if you want to dismiss AC2 you still have the big problem of quests in City of Heroes which came out 6 months prior to EQ2 and WOW. Or are you going to say something to dismiss that too.
I'll say something to dismiss that. 6 months is a tiny amount of time in the context of a development cycle as enormous as any of those three games. To pretend that CoH was the game that either of those juggernauts (at the time) looked to for inspiration is laughable.
they all have development cycles. there is beta etc. So don't play that math it is crap.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I betaed Asheron Call 2 and I recalled something like that but wasn't very sure about it so I thought I might have imagined it and decided that it may have not been an accurate recollection. Thanks for confirming my memory @Kyleran. It explained why both EQ2 and WoW came up with the same idea around the same time.
well even if you want to dismiss AC2 you still have the big problem of quests in City of Heroes which came out 6 months prior to EQ2 and WOW. Or are you going to say something to dismiss that too.
I'll say something to dismiss that. 6 months is a tiny amount of time in the context of a development cycle as enormous as any of those three games. To pretend that CoH was the game that either of those juggernauts (at the time) looked to for inspiration is laughable.
they all have development cycles. there is beta etc. So don't play that math it is crap.
What math is crap?
Are you implying that WoW and EQ2 copied CoH to develop their quest system?
Goodness you're rude there was no need to call me thick but I should return that compliment as a 2 week release between two games of such differing popularity is not at all significant as one game went on to gather millions by its side. It is natural anyone would associate the overhead quest indicator with WoW and not Everquest 2.
If you find that objectionable take that up with WoW's popularity .
Again it doesn't matter whether someone associates quest markers with WOW the fact remains that it was EQ2 that first introduced them in what was the first of the truly theme park mmo.
You can go round and round but unless WOW came before EQ2 you have lost.
If you want to have a conversation last on which mmo was more popular then that's another conversation.
Take it on the chin lol.
Being the first means squat in this sense, it's what set the precedent of it being popular that matters most, that is most definitely WOW. It wasn't EQ2 that influenced WOW.
Actually as they were intended to compete head to head there would have been considerable borrowing of ideas from each other. That is why they released within days of each other. While this quest marker thing had precedents in other games one of these two (WoW & EQ2) would have incorporated the feature first and the other rapidly copied it during development. After this length of time we can't even guess which was first.
In short EQ2 did influence WoW and WoW did influence EQ2.
It's wasn't WOW that bought us that 'quest by npc' it was EQ2 which came out before WOW. Some people like to blame everything on WOW but forget it was EQ2 that came first.
I would like to go back to the way EQ was by saying certain words to an NPC. An updated version of that system would be very interesting.
Dude, they came out within 3 weeks of each other. WoW is the one that popularized it. Stop playing semantics. If we want to be technical, DAOC had some of those style of quests, though it wasn't the only way of leveling. EQ2 was the same, you could actually get decent XP in dungeons and by killing mobs. WoW on the other hand, from the beginning of release, questing was HEADS AND TAILS better than any other activity for gaining XP.
Wow released 5 weeks after, yes but already Meridian 59 had quests back in '96. Yeah, it was stuff like killing rats in the moat and similar and it was not the main source of experience points but it was in many ways the grandfather of MMOs with trinity styled combat, customized characters (using sliders). levels, classes and relatively large servers.
Wow was indeed far more focused on questing then any earlier games, but just barely so compared to EQ2 (which Wow couldn't exactly copy due to time). I fail to see the point here though.
Anyways, quests were implemented originally to help new players and point players to new places. Later they started to use them as a way to lessen the grind and ironically they winded up being a huge grind in themselves.
Pointing players in direction of stuff to do is good, constantly telling them exactly what to do isn't. Dynamic events is also grindy but for me they feels less so since at least there is some urgency and you don't get that full questlog that feels so annoying to grind off. But of course since DEs are cycled they can easily become super boring as well.
I really don't put much stock on who invented what.
Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.
- Same with off-line shooter games....The standard was, run down hallways and pick up new guns and ammo.
- Same with Todays off-line RPG's.... The standard is, kill everything in a room then loot the entire room.
- Same with hack-and-slash.... The standard is, equip a flame thrower, circle and spray fire, then collect the loot.
It's all the " basic standards ".
These are not "standards" they hugely effect the nature of the MMO, how much exploration you do is directly linked to how many arrows guide you round the game. Less arrows, more exploration.
I am not saying lets bin every question mark etc, but we need to realise there is a balance here. Did WoW go to far in hand holding? Probably, but certainly todays MMOs are way too guided, it is a solo experience in what is meant to be a MMORPG. But then that was the new player base they were chasing.
I really don't put much stock on who invented what.
Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.
- Same with off-line shooter games....The standard was, run down hallways and pick up new guns and ammo.
- Same with Todays off-line RPG's.... The standard is, kill everything in a room then loot the entire room.
- Same with hack-and-slash.... The standard is, equip a flame thrower, circle and spray fire, then collect the loot.
It's all the " basic standards ".
These are not "standards" they hugely effect the nature of the MMO, how much exploration you do is directly linked to how many arrows guide you round the game. Less arrows, more exploration.
I am not saying lets bin every question mark etc, but we need to realise there is a balance here. Did WoW go to far in hand holding? Probably, but certainly todays MMOs are way too guided, it is a solo experience in what is meant to be a MMORPG. But then that was the new player base they were chasing.
It's obvious that mmo's have taken the standard too far with arrows guiding you around the game, or hand holding.
I really don't put much stock on who invented what.
Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.
- Same with off-line shooter games....The standard was, run down hallways and pick up new guns and ammo.
- Same with Todays off-line RPG's.... The standard is, kill everything in a room then loot the entire room.
- Same with hack-and-slash.... The standard is, equip a flame thrower, circle and spray fire, then collect the loot.
It's all the " basic standards ".
These are not "standards" they hugely effect the nature of the MMO, how much exploration you do is directly linked to how many arrows guide you round the game. Less arrows, more exploration.
I am not saying lets bin every question mark etc, but we need to realise there is a balance here. Did WoW go to far in hand holding? Probably, but certainly todays MMOs are way too guided, it is a solo experience in what is meant to be a MMORPG. But then that was the new player base they were chasing.
It's obvious that mmo's have taken the standard too far with arrows guiding you around the game, or hand holding.
That's a TOTALLY DIFFRIENT SUBJECT.
Standard theme park MMORPGs have adopted these mechanics, titles such as EVE or even Albion Online have not.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.
Untrue.
it is what became the worst of the gentrification of MMORPGs, but it was never, originally, the 'basics'. The 'basics were co-op and community, and the emergent gameplay that came from a basic open world.
Quests, as in the WoW sense, were a serious misstep, not the 'basics'.
Comments
Again it doesn't matter whether someone associates quest markers with WOW the fact remains that it was EQ2 that first introduced them in what was the first of the truly theme park mmo.
You can go round and round but unless WOW came before EQ2 you have lost.
If you want to have a conversation last on which mmo was more popular then that's another conversation.
Take it on the chin lol.
Everquest 2 was also a very different game when I played it at launch. It however changed to suit the success of WoW and became worse for it because it was a far more unique game and had good crafting and housing which I loved.
If you want EQ go and play it. It is still running no?
We have zero clue how well a well polished Vanguard would have done because of that (well, it wouldn't have done Wow good anyways so we maybe have a little clue) so explaining it's failure with that it was niche is unfair.
The minimum success factor for a MMO is to be playable at launch and to run acceptably on a normal computer. Failing to do that have hurt a lot of otherwise fine games (Anarchy online comes to mind, all the FunCom MMOs really). So using Vanguard as an example for anything else then that just isn't good.
Of course, Pantheon might fall on the same problem but if it releases in good shape it will do better then Vanguard, the question is just how much better. And, no. It wont do Wow good in any case, I don't see it getting over a million players no matter what happens but it needs to get 250K players to earn some money and be able to actually add new content at a normal MMO pace. That is not impossible.
You don't need to give me a lecture EQ2 of WOW I was in both beta. WOW didn't even have an NDA anyone could go to the site and read or watch vids but you could not post.
EQ2 had an NDA but again all of that is irrelevant so you could of saved yourself writing time.
The fact still remains that it was EQ2 that came out before WOW with quest markers. All this rubbish about what people thought of associated with each game is bullshit and irrelevant.
EQ2 came first.
Again all that is irrelevant and just repeating what you have said already.
EQ2 released there game which had npc quest markers before WOW.
Doesn't matter who made it popular the fact is EQ2 came first. You are never going to change that but if you want to keep going round in circles that's up to you.
A system in a game be good or bad has no influence on other games and no impact on the development of this genre unless it is adopted. So by itself the overhead quest indicator had no impact if it was not coupled with the popularity of WoW.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
But the mechanisms EQ1 used to make 'quests' difficult were frequently tied to the spawn mechanisms. Almost immediately, quests gained the reputation of 'not being worth it' because they ran through several spawns with notoriously long spawn times. Anyone who waited on Yiz Pon in West Karana to complete their Jeweled Skull knows about this. It was rumored that Yiz Pon was on a 28 day (monthly) timer, like the original game dragons.
Quests requiring items from rare spawns were supposed to help restrict items appearing in game, but in many cases the rarity simply increased the difficulty of the quest beyond the 'value' of the reward.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
It is believed both EQ2 and WOW borrowed heavily from this title hence their near simultaneous release of the feature in 2004.
Perhaps you were too busy beta testing to take note?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Dude, they came out within 3 weeks of each other. WoW is the one that popularized it. Stop playing semantics. If we want to be technical, DAOC had some of those style of quests, though it wasn't the only way of leveling. EQ2 was the same, you could actually get decent XP in dungeons and by killing mobs. WoW on the other hand, from the beginning of release, questing was HEADS AND TAILS better than any other activity for gaining XP.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
well even if you want to dismiss AC2 you still have the big problem of quests in City of Heroes which came out 6 months prior to EQ2 and WOW. Or are you going to say something to dismiss that too.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
they all have development cycles. there is beta etc. So don't play that math it is crap.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Are you implying that WoW and EQ2 copied CoH to develop their quest system?
In short EQ2 did influence WoW and WoW did influence EQ2.
Wow was indeed far more focused on questing then any earlier games, but just barely so compared to EQ2 (which Wow couldn't exactly copy due to time). I fail to see the point here though.
Anyways, quests were implemented originally to help new players and point players to new places. Later they started to use them as a way to lessen the grind and ironically they winded up being a huge grind in themselves.
Pointing players in direction of stuff to do is good, constantly telling them exactly what to do isn't. Dynamic events is also grindy but for me they feels less so since at least there is some urgency and you don't get that full questlog that feels so annoying to grind off. But of course since DEs are cycled they can easily become super boring as well.
I really don't put much stock on who invented what.
Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.
- Same with off-line shooter games....The standard was, run down hallways and pick up new guns and ammo.
- Same with Todays off-line RPG's.... The standard is, kill everything in a room then loot the entire room.
- Same with hack-and-slash.... The standard is, equip a flame thrower, circle and spray fire, then collect the loot.
It's all the " basic standards ".
These are not "standards" they hugely effect the nature of the MMO, how much exploration you do is directly linked to how many arrows guide you round the game. Less arrows, more exploration.
I am not saying lets bin every question mark etc, but we need to realise there is a balance here. Did WoW go to far in hand holding? Probably, but certainly todays MMOs are way too guided, it is a solo experience in what is meant to be a MMORPG. But then that was the new player base they were chasing.
It's obvious that mmo's have taken the standard too far with arrows guiding you around the game, or hand holding.
That's a TOTALLY DIFFRIENT SUBJECT.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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it is what became the worst of the gentrification of MMORPGs, but it was never, originally, the 'basics'. The 'basics were co-op and community, and the emergent gameplay that came from a basic open world.
Quests, as in the WoW sense, were a serious misstep, not the 'basics'.