To add to my previous comment Wurm Online is not good evidence of an MMO without leveling (It actually has the longest progression of any MMO I've ever seen.) It actually does provide evidence that removing progression can make a game more successful.
One of the original developers of Wurm Online left and created his own game that was practically Wurm without leveling and missing some of the cooler Wurm features, was not an MMO, and had worse graphics. We call that game Minecraft.
While most of you haven't heard of Wurm, I assume you have heard of Minecraft. Another example of how MMOs lost relevancy by making leveling the central content.
Psst ... Wurm Online is a "Sandbox MMO," not an "MMORPG."
BTW, that last sentence is pretty telling. The fact that they changed their game play to make leveling the central content seems to have escaped you. Yet you seem pretty convinced that the problem does not lie with you.
That's a very flawed concept of what the RPG part in MMORPG constitutes. First off, RPGs are not intrinsically tied to levels to define progression. Neither are they defined by a rigid narrative path, as open world RPG titles with free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plot already exist.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
Again, we aren't just talking about progress as it pertains to character customization and power development. Its very easy to spout out baseless and unsubstantiated opinions about what constitutes RPGs and how they are not intrisically tied to levels to define progression, its a whole different story actually describing how an RPG is to tell their story in a sequential and chronological order without a level gating game play design.
I'd be interested in hearing some of these other existing open world "MMORPG" titles with a free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plots that do not involve level gating in some form or another.
Again, the key acronym as it pertains to the context in question of this thread is "RPG" not "MMO."
Only open ended RPG are gated by levels. The rest are gated by story.
Most RPG wouldn't change much without levels. You just give abilities points where you would level and scale the numbers. Nothing changes. The few that would are mostly old games where you could get stomped going into high level areas early. Not a common design anymore. Most are gated by story or scale.
Your post makes no sense. It only serves to muddy the topic not clarify it. We do not get to individually define the definition of an MMORPG. It is what it is. There is no gray area in that regard.
All RPG do not have levels. Not sure what you're talking about.
We are not simply talking about "RPGs" we are talking about "MMORPGs." There is a difference.
Once upon a time there were 3 popular MMORPG, UO, EQ and somewhat AC. EQ had traditional leveling that grandfathered most of the genre. AC had levels that gave exp to skill gain but levels weren't power platforms. UO had usage based skills progression with no levels.
Not sure why you mentioned EQ and AC as they are obviously level based games and add nothing to support your argument. UO may not have had levels but it was indeed a level gated designed game. "Leveling" comes in many forms and does not always need to be reflected in numbers. Wanting to be deceived into believing that a game does not have "leveling" simply because the advancement and progression in the game is not reflected in numbers may work in giving some a measure of relief in thinking that they are not playing a "level" based game, but nothing could be further from the truth. Its a pretty naive perspective. All MMORPGs have level based gating in some form of another.
Below is a copy pasted description of UO by this very website ...
UO allows you to choose a class, train skills, and upgrade player stats to advance. many gameplay mechanics and features that we now consider traditional in MMOs, such as living in a virtual world, building player cities, leveling, crafting, exploring, and more were either forged by or made classic by Ultima Online. There is an extensive crafting system and resources to gather for use in both skill training and crafting.
A rose by any other name ... is still a rose.
It's not the same thing. Its certainly not the vast vertical progression talked about in this thread.
Leveling in this genre is largely artificial numbers game. You have a stagnant challenge and instead of doing 20 damage to 100 hp you do 20k to 100 hp end game. All that's accomplished is power gaps, filler content and stuck on repeat doing 1% of the game end game. That is unless you negate leveling which speaks volumes on its own why their not needed in the first place.
That's a very flawed concept of what the RPG part in MMORPG constitutes. First off, RPGs are not intrinsically tied to levels to define progression. Neither are they defined by a rigid narrative path, as open world RPG titles with free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plot already exist.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
Again, we aren't just talking about progress as it pertains to character customization and power development. Its very easy to spout out baseless and unsubstantiated opinions about what constitutes RPGs and how they are not intrisically tied to levels to define progression, its a whole different story actually describing how an RPG is to tell their story in a sequential and chronological order without a level gating game play design.
I'd be interested in hearing some of these other existing open world "MMORPG" titles with a free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plots that do not involve level gating in some form or another.
Again, the key acronym as it pertains to the context in question of this thread is "RPG" not "MMO."
Only open ended RPG are gated by levels. The rest are gated by story.
Most RPG wouldn't change much without levels. You just give abilities points where you would level and scale the numbers. Nothing changes. The few that would are mostly old games where you could get stomped going into high level areas early. Not a common design anymore. Most are gated by story or scale.
Your post makes no sense. It only serves to muddy the topic not clarify it. We do not get to individually define the definition of an MMORPG. It is what it is. There is no gray area in that regard.
All RPG do not have levels. Not sure what you're talking about.
We are not simply talking about "RPGs" we are talking about "MMORPGs." There is a difference.
Once upon a time there were 3 popular MMORPG, UO, EQ and somewhat AC. EQ had traditional leveling that grandfathered most of the genre. AC had levels that gave exp to skill gain but levels weren't power platforms. UO had usage based skills progression with no levels.
Not sure why you mentioned EQ and AC as they are obviously level based games and add nothing to support your argument. UO may not have had levels but it was indeed a level gated designed game. "Leveling" comes in many forms and does not always need to be reflected in numbers. Wanting to be deceived into believing that a game does not have "leveling" simply because the advancement and progression in the game is not reflected in numbers may work in giving some a measure of relief in thinking that they are not playing a "level" based game, but nothing could be further from the truth. Its a pretty naive perspective. All MMORPGs have level based gating in some form of another.
Below is a copy pasted description of UO by this very website ...
UO allows you to choose a class, train skills, and upgrade player stats to advance. many gameplay mechanics and features that we now consider traditional in MMOs, such as living in a virtual world, building player cities, leveling, crafting, exploring, and more were either forged by or made classic by Ultima Online. There is an extensive crafting system and resources to gather for use in both skill training and crafting.
A rose by any other name ... is still a rose.
It's not the same thing. Its certainly not the vast vertical progression talked about in this thread.
Leveling in this genre is largely artificial numbers game. You have a stagnant challenge and instead of doing 20 damage to 100 hp you do 20k to 100 hp end game. All that's accomplished is power gaps, filler content and stuck on repeat doing 1% of the game end game. That is unless you negate leveling which speaks volumes on its own why their not needed in the first place.
Whatever makes you feel better, partner. They will sell you a Pinto under the guise that its a lamborghini and as long as you believe it, it is all good. All they want you to do is keep spending that money. In that regard, with you they have succeeded.
Laced.... Did you read anything other than the title? "The Sandbox MMO" then first line of game description? "Wurm Online is the MMORPG where the players are in charge!"
Also they didn't change the gameplay to make leveling the central content. Wurm Online came first! As I stated in my post. Notch was a developer for Wurm Online before he made Minecraft. Minecraft is a Wurm Online rip off. He made it more successful by removing leveling.
Seriously. Do you read at all, or just skim for cherrypicked statements to support your argument?
Alrighty then. Regardless of whatever acronym you want to put on it, a type of game I'd love to see created (and it's my impression OP and a few others in this thread alone are looking for something similar), is a game which has and/or does the following:
Takes place in an open, persistant world, capable of supporting massively multiplayer. "Similar" to an MMO
Offers considerable player agency, in the form of crafting, building, terraforming, territory and resource control, and so on. Similar to a sandbox game
Has a primarily skill-based progression system that, while offering character development and customization through a multitude of abilities and builds, does so in a way that it it leaves "statistic values" at a streamlined default. - E.g. a level 1 and a level 100 player, has the same amount of base health, and deal the same amount of damage with a sword, per hit. Difference being the level 100 has a wider variety of moves and/or tools at their disposal, enabling them to approach encounters more creatively. Meanwhile, allowing the level 1 to still compete in content or against other players, provided they're good enough at mastering the controls.
Offers either (or both) linear and/or dynamic story-driven events and quests within the framework of the world, to give players scripted story experiences along with the tools to develop their own. "Similar" to some elements of RPG's.
Probably other things I can't immediately think of off the top of my head.
Just for the hell of it. What genre would you put this game into?
Laced.... Did you read anything other than the title? "The Sandbox MMO" then first line of game description? "Wurm Online is the MMORPG where the players are in charge!"
Also they didn't change the gameplay to make leveling the central content. Wurm Online came first! As I stated in my post. Notch was a developer for Wurm Online before he made Minecraft. Minecraft is a Wurm Online rip off. He made it more successful by removing leveling.
Seriously. Do you read at all, or just skim for cherrypicked statements to support your argument?
I read very well, thank you. Do you?
You chose to disregard the very title of that paragraph which is in larger letters, yet I'm the one skimming for cherrypicked statements to support my argument?
Look, if a game is as you've described, with no leveling, then the proper description would be a "Sandbox MMO," which is exactly what that title says. It's very game play justify the game play as a "sandbox MMO." Just because they later add "MMORPG" in the paragraph does not nullify the reality that its a "sandbox MMO."
Whether they added leveling or not is irrelevant to this discussion. I'm just going by what you are saying. My very simple point is, if the game includes leveling in any form it is an "MMORPG." If it does not, its a "Sandbox MMO." You can pick either one of those to describe Wurm Online. What you can not do is change the facts.
Alrighty then. Regardless of whatever acronym you want to put on it, a type of game I'd love to see created (and it's my impression OP and a few others in this thread alone are looking for something similar), is a game which has and/or does the following:
Takes place in an open, persistant world, capable of supporting massively multiplayer. "Similar" to an MMO
Offers considerable player agency, in the form of crafting, building, terraforming, territory and resource control, and so on.
Has a primarily skill-based progression system that, while offering character development and customization through a multitude of abilities and builds, does so in a way that it it leaves "statistic values" at a streamlined default. - E.g. a level 1 and a level 100 player, has the same amount of base health, and deal the same amount of damage with a sword, per hit. Difference being the level 100 has a wider variety of moves and/or tools at their disposal, enabling them to approach encounters more creatively. Meanwhile, allowing the level 1 to still compete in content or against other players, provided they're good enough at mastering the controls.
Offers either (or both) linear and/or dynamic story-driven events and quests within the framework of the world, to give players scripted story experiences along with the tools to develop their own. "Similar" to some elements of RPG's.
Probably other things I can't immediately think of off the top of my head.
Just for the hell of it. What genre would you put this game into?
Point 4 is not essential but is a positive. The other three are spot on with what I want. I bolded 3 because it's so incredibly spot on.
Alrighty then. Regardless of whatever acronym you want to put on it, a type of game I'd love to see created (and it's my impression OP and a few others in this thread alone are looking for something similar), is a game which has and/or does the following:
Takes place in an open, persistant world, capable of supporting massively multiplayer. "Similar" to an MMO
Offers considerable player agency, in the form of crafting, building, terraforming, territory and resource control, and so on. Similar to a sandbox game
Has a primarily skill-based progression system that, while offering character development and customization through a multitude of abilities and builds, does so in a way that it it leaves "statistic values" at a streamlined default. - E.g. a level 1 and a level 100 player, has the same amount of base health, and deal the same amount of damage with a sword, per hit. Difference being the level 100 has a wider variety of moves and/or tools at their disposal, enabling them to approach encounters more creatively. Meanwhile, allowing the level 1 to still compete in content or against other players, provided they're good enough at mastering the controls.
Offers either (or both) linear and/or dynamic story-driven events and quests within the framework of the world, to give players scripted story experiences along with the tools to develop their own. "Similar" to some elements of RPG's.
Probably other things I can't immediately think of off the top of my head.
Just for the hell of it. What genre would you put this game into?
What you have described is a "Sandbox MMO."
If that is what the OP, and others, are looking for then ask for it, but leave the MMORPG genre out of it. There is a very specific concept behind MMORPG game play. And it fulfills a purpose withing the video game industry. It would be nice if we stopped bastardizing it and trying to turn it into something that it is not.
You can call the type of game we want whatever you want to call it. The fact is that there are plenty of "Sandbox MMOs" (I like how you are still ignoring the fact that Wurm describes itself as an MMORPG in the first line of their description and focusing solely on their title) listed in the games list right here on MMORPG.com
Star Citizen, Crowfall, Darkfall, Xsyon and Wurm Online to name a few.
So this topic is completely at home here, even if you are angry that I'm somehow attacking the "purity" of your dying genre of games, made up primarily of uninventive clones of the same general game model over and over and over.
Whatever makes you feel better, partner. They will sell you a Pinto under the guise that its a lamborghini and as long as you believe it, it is all good. All they want you to do is keep spending that money. In that regard, with you they have succeeded.
You're not even making sense. If levels only represent number bloat than there is no need for levels. You're gameplay would nearly be unchanged if exp gave you ability points instead of levels. The only change would be content wouldn't be outleveled. It works the same way as deleveling and scaling work. Not sure you are grasping the concept. Scaling and does not mean it's not an RPG.
If that is what the OP, and others, are looking for then ask for it, but leave the MMORPG genre out of it. There is a very specific concept behind MMORPG game play. And it fulfills a purpose withing the video game industry. It would be nice if we stopped bastardizing it and trying to turn it into something that it is not.
Fantastic then!
I'd love a sandbox MMO with horizontal progression and emphasis on roleplaying (note, roleplaying, not RPG features)
Good to have that settled.
Also, OP's first post didn't mention RPG (or the full "MMORPG") at any time. It was only us quarrelsome few who began discussing RPG definitions. It just so happened to take place in this topic.
You can call the type of game we want whatever you want to call it. The fact is that there are plenty of "Sandbox MMOs" (I like how you are still ignoring the fact that Wurm describes itself as an MMORPG in the first line of their description and focusing solely on their title) listed in the games list right here on MMORPG.com
Star Citizen, Crowfall, Darkfall, Xsyon and Wurm Online to name a few.
So this topic is completely at home here, even if you are angry that I'm somehow attacking the "purity" of your dying genre of games, made up primarily of uninventive clones of the same general game model over and over and over.
I'm not angry at all. I am merely adding a bit of insight and clarification into the point you are trying to make. In that sense I consider myself supporting your plight, not arguing against it. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what we call a game. It's game play defines what it is, not what we chose to call it. There is a place for all video game genres to coexist in this industry. There is no need to criticize, chastise or down play one over another. In that regard, this entire thread has been an exercise in futility. Again, if what you want is a "sandox MMO," then ask for it. The MMORPG genre has nothing to do with your concern as this complaint can be just as easily applied to the FPS/MOBA/Whatever genre's, in regard to what they do not offer, are lacking, and can be improved upon to include any of a variety of a player's game play preference.
And I'll remain convinced that defining an RPG by number values, rather than the literal meaning of the words it's comprised of, doesn't make any sense.
The function of words is in distinction.
"Blue" functions because it refers to a color that's distinct from other colors. If we called everything "blue", it would be objectively useless as a word.
With "MMO" I often argue the literal meaning. Why? Because when all games are called "MMO" the term is objectively useless, but when the literal meaning is used the term distinguishes massively multiplayer games from non-massive ones.
With "RPG" 99% of games involve playing a role. So the term would be objectively useless because it would fail to distinguish one type of game from another.
There's a strong logical basis for using words in a way which keeps them useful and functional. Only people who deliberately want conversations on a topic to be confusing should argue in favor of words that objectively provide less meaning.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You can call the type of game we want whatever you want to call it. The fact is that there are plenty of "Sandbox MMOs" (I like how you are still ignoring the fact that Wurm describes itself as an MMORPG in the first line of their description and focusing solely on their title) listed in the games list right here on MMORPG.com
Star Citizen, Crowfall, Darkfall, Xsyon and Wurm Online to name a few.
So this topic is completely at home here, even if you are angry that I'm somehow attacking the "purity" of your dying genre of games, made up primarily of uninventive clones of the same general game model over and over and over.
I'm not angry at all. I am merely adding a bit of insight and clarification into the point you are trying to make. In that sense I consider myself supporting your plight, not arguing against it. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what we call a game. It's game play defines what it is, not what we chose to call it. There is a place for all video game genres to coexist in this industry. There is no need to criticize, chastise or down play one over another. In that regard, this entire thread has been an exercise in futility. Again, if what you want is a "sandox MMO," then ask for it. The MMORPG genre has nothing to do with your concern as this complaint can be just as easily applied to the FPS/MOBA/Whatever genre's, in regard to what they do not offer, are lacking, and can be improved upon to include any of a variety of a player's game play preference.
As Gray Philosopher pointed out, at no point were the terms "MMORPG" or "RPG" used in my original post. Only MMO. While I disagree that vertical progression or scripted story are needed to make an RPG an RPG it's a completely separate argument than the one I made in my OP.
You are the one that read me talking about what I want in MMOs and just assumed that "MMO" was meant to be followed with RPG.
Look, if a game is as you've described, with no leveling, then the proper description would be a "Sandbox MMO," which is exactly what that title says. It's very game play justify the game play as a "sandbox MMO." Just because they later add "MMORPG" in the paragraph does not nullify the reality that its a "sandbox MMO."
Whether they added leveling or not is irrelevant to this discussion. I'm just going by what you are saying. My very simple point is, if the game includes leveling in any form it is an "MMORPG." If it does not, its a "Sandbox MMO." You can pick either one of those to describe Wurm Online. What you can not do is change the facts.
Your wrong, Sandbox MMOs have a form of leveling and progression, its just not the same as a themepark mmo. Sandbox MMOs are about leveling your skills etc like runescape. And going with the right combination of skills/professions.
A regular sandbox game however usually most of the time do not have leveling. This is why I said at some point in the thread that the OP's idea would be a game changer to both themeparks and sandbox mmos.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
Look, if a game is as you've described, with no leveling, then the proper description would be a "Sandbox MMO," which is exactly what that title says. It's very game play justify the game play as a "sandbox MMO." Just because they later add "MMORPG" in the paragraph does not nullify the reality that its a "sandbox MMO."
Whether they added leveling or not is irrelevant to this discussion. I'm just going by what you are saying. My very simple point is, if the game includes leveling in any form it is an "MMORPG." If it does not, its a "Sandbox MMO." You can pick either one of those to describe Wurm Online. What you can not do is change the facts.
Your wrong, Sandbox MMOs have a form of leveling and progression, its just not the same as a themepark mmo. Sandbox MMOs are about leveling your skills etc like runescape. And going with the right combination of skills/professions.
A regular sandbox game however usually most of the time do not have leveling. This is why I said at some point in the thread that the OP's idea would be a game changer to both themeparks and sandbox mmos.
I did not mean to imply that Sandbox MMO's did not require a form of leveling and progression. Of course they do. What they don't require is a story. And therein lies the basic difference between an MMORPG and a sandbox MMO.
So What? If You Want Fairness Why Not Play an FPS/MOBA/Whatever...
MMOs are more than stat progression. MMOs are massive worlds that offer chances to explore the world, randomly encounter other players but peacefully, and in random encounter Open World PvP. MMOs can feature meaningful crafting, and a greater variety of content. MMOs give you a chance to make a mark on a world inhabited by real players. Some MMOs even have deep politics with player created factions. Some people love and desire to take part in many or all of these things without being subjected to massive power disparities based on level and gear.
It's effectiveness is rendered moot in his very first sentence which implies that he is unable to make the distinct differentiation between an MMO and an MMORPG. As explained above, while MMO's may indeed involve all of the above, there is a distinct difference between an MMO and an MMORPG. If what he is looking for is an "MMO" without story and level gating, then he would be well advised to take his concerns to any of the dozens of FPS/MOBA/Whatever game forums and express his concerns regarding making those games include all of the above features minus the story telling and level gating play that are core to MMO"RPG" game play. I think it is safe to say that MMORPG gamers are fed up with the bastardization of the MMORPG genre by "FPS/MOBA/Whatever" players complaining about this core feature and trying to change it into something unrecognizable from the origin of its concepts.
Strongly agree with the "if you want a different genre, you should play a different genre"implication behind that opening line.
Strongly disagree with the way you're differentiating "MMO" and "MMORPG".
All red cars are red.
Not all cars are red.
Cars aren't the only thing which are red.
Until you pair "red" with a noun, it isn't describing anything. It's nothing by itself.
MMO is an adjective just like "red":
All MMORPGs are MMOs.
Not all RPGs are MMOs.
RPGs aren't the only thing which are MMOs.
Until you pair "MMO" with a genre, it isn't describing anything. It's nothing by itself.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What they don't require is a story. And therein lies the basic difference between an MMORPG and a sandbox MMO.
The thing is, sandbox mmos usually have more tools for RP'ing to be viable. sandbox mmos are just a sub category of a MMORPG, just like a themepark mmo is a sub category of a MMORPG.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
I prefer the terms Themepark MMO and Sandbox MMO. A Themepark is where the primary development focus is creating content for the players to consume. A sandbox is where the primary development focus is creating tools for players to create their own content.
For sure two very different types of games but I don't think the inclusion and exclusion of the term RPG is what separates them. You can have Themepark MMORPGs and Sandbox MMORPGs. Infact the most immersed I've ever felt in the role of my character was when I first tried Mortal Online. Buggy mechanics and poorly implemented features eventually ruined the title for me, but for about 48 hours there were points I almost forgot that I was playing a game. I was just some guy running around the wild taming horses and riding them back to town to sell.
So What? If You Want Fairness Why Not Play an FPS/MOBA/Whatever...
MMOs are more than stat progression. MMOs are massive worlds that offer chances to explore the world, randomly encounter other players but peacefully, and in random encounter Open World PvP. MMOs can feature meaningful crafting, and a greater variety of content. MMOs give you a chance to make a mark on a world inhabited by real players. Some MMOs even have deep politics with player created factions. Some people love and desire to take part in many or all of these things without being subjected to massive power disparities based on level and gear.
It's effectiveness is rendered moot in his very first sentence which implies that he is unable to make the distinct differentiation between an MMO and an MMORPG. As explained above, while MMO's may indeed involve all of the above, there is a distinct difference between an MMO and an MMORPG. If what he is looking for is an "MMO" without story and level gating, then he would be well advised to take his concerns to any of the dozens of FPS/MOBA/Whatever game forums and express his concerns regarding making those games include all of the above features minus the story telling and level gating play that are core to MMO"RPG" game play. I think it is safe to say that MMORPG gamers are fed up with the bastardization of the MMORPG genre by "FPS/MOBA/Whatever" players complaining about this core feature and trying to change it into something unrecognizable from the origin of its concepts.
Strongly agree with the "if you want a different genre, you should play a different genre"implication behind that opening line.
Strongly disagree with the way you're differentiating "MMO" and "MMORPG".
All red cars are red.
Not all cars are red.
Cars aren't the only thing which are red.
Until you pair "red" with a noun, it isn't describing anything. It's nothing by itself.
MMO is an adjective just like "red":
All MMORPGs are MMOs.
Not all RPGs are MMOs.
RPGs aren't the only thing which are MMOs.
Until you pair "MMO" with a genre, it isn't describing anything. It's nothing by itself.
So What? If You Want Fairness Why Not Play an FPS/MOBA/Whatever...
MMOs are more than stat progression. MMOs are massive worlds that offer chances to explore the world, randomly encounter other players but peacefully, and in random encounter Open World PvP. MMOs can feature meaningful crafting, and a greater variety of content. MMOs give you a chance to make a mark on a world inhabited by real players. Some MMOs even have deep politics with player created factions. Some people love and desire to take part in many or all of these things without being subjected to massive power disparities based on level and gear.
It's effectiveness is rendered moot in his very first sentence which implies that he is unable to make the distinct differentiation between an MMO and an MMORPG. As explained above, while MMO's may indeed involve all of the above, there is a distinct difference between an MMO and an MMORPG. If what he is looking for is an "MMO" without story and level gating, then he would be well advised to take his concerns to any of the dozens of FPS/MOBA/Whatever game forums and express his concerns regarding making those games include all of the above features minus the story telling and level gating play that are core to MMO"RPG" game play. I think it is safe to say that MMORPG gamers are fed up with the bastardization of the MMORPG genre by "FPS/MOBA/Whatever" players complaining about this core feature and trying to change it into something unrecognizable from the origin of its concepts.
Strongly agree with the "if you want a different genre, you should play a different genre"implication behind that opening line.
Strongly disagree with the way you're differentiating "MMO" and "MMORPG".
All red cars are red.
Not all cars are red.
Cars aren't the only thing which are red.
Until you pair "red" with a noun, it isn't describing anything. It's nothing by itself.
MMO is an adjective just like "red":
All MMORPGs are MMOs.
Not all RPGs are MMOs.
RPGs aren't the only thing which are MMOs.
Until you pair "MMO" with a genre, it isn't describing anything. It's nothing by itself.
This is why I want people around here to write mmorpg when they mean mmorpgs. If they mean any kind of mmo including those that aren't rpgs then mmo is ok.
I believe this is just a little game they are playing on the forum.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The adjective (MMO) modifies that gameplay. It only means a game is massively multiplayer and online. That's it.
No I did not say MMO is a genre unto itself. I specifically stated that all online video games that are played by a "massive" amount of players fall under the umbrella of an "MMO."
No one is disagreeing that not all MMOs require gating. FPS/MOBA and Whatevers are all MMOs. Any game that offers online game play to a massive amount of players falls under the umbrella of an "MMO."
If your gripe is against MMOs in general, why are you complaining about levels?
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Psst ... Wurm Online is a "Sandbox MMO," not an "MMORPG."
http://www.wurmonline.com
... and so is Minecraft.
BTW, that last sentence is pretty telling. The fact that they changed their game play to make leveling the central content seems to have escaped you. Yet you seem pretty convinced that the problem does not lie with you.
Leveling in this genre is largely artificial numbers game. You have a stagnant challenge and instead of doing 20 damage to 100 hp you do 20k to 100 hp end game. All that's accomplished is power gaps, filler content and stuck on repeat doing 1% of the game end game. That is unless you negate leveling which speaks volumes on its own why their not needed in the first place.
Whatever makes you feel better, partner. They will sell you a Pinto under the guise that its a lamborghini and as long as you believe it, it is all good. All they want you to do is keep spending that money. In that regard, with you they have succeeded.
Also they didn't change the gameplay to make leveling the central content. Wurm Online came first! As I stated in my post. Notch was a developer for Wurm Online before he made Minecraft. Minecraft is a Wurm Online rip off. He made it more successful by removing leveling.
Seriously. Do you read at all, or just skim for cherrypicked statements to support your argument?
- E.g. a level 1 and a level 100 player, has the same amount of base health, and deal the same amount of damage with a sword, per hit. Difference being the level 100 has a wider variety of moves and/or tools at their disposal, enabling them to approach encounters more creatively. Meanwhile, allowing the level 1 to still compete in content or against other players, provided they're good enough at mastering the controls.
Just for the hell of it. What genre would you put this game into?
I read very well, thank you. Do you?
You chose to disregard the very title of that paragraph which is in larger letters, yet I'm the one skimming for cherrypicked statements to support my argument?
Look, if a game is as you've described, with no leveling, then the proper description would be a "Sandbox MMO," which is exactly what that title says. It's very game play justify the game play as a "sandbox MMO." Just because they later add "MMORPG" in the paragraph does not nullify the reality that its a "sandbox MMO."
Whether they added leveling or not is irrelevant to this discussion. I'm just going by what you are saying. My very simple point is, if the game includes leveling in any form it is an "MMORPG." If it does not, its a "Sandbox MMO." You can pick either one of those to describe Wurm Online. What you can not do is change the facts.
What you have described is a "Sandbox MMO."
If that is what the OP, and others, are looking for then ask for it, but leave the MMORPG genre out of it. There is a very specific concept behind MMORPG game play. And it fulfills a purpose withing the video game industry. It would be nice if we stopped bastardizing it and trying to turn it into something that it is not.
Star Citizen, Crowfall, Darkfall, Xsyon and Wurm Online to name a few.
So this topic is completely at home here, even if you are angry that I'm somehow attacking the "purity" of your dying genre of games, made up primarily of uninventive clones of the same general game model over and over and over.
You're not even making sense. If levels only represent number bloat than there is no need for levels. You're gameplay would nearly be unchanged if exp gave you ability points instead of levels. The only change would be content wouldn't be outleveled. It works the same way as deleveling and scaling work. Not sure you are grasping the concept. Scaling and does not mean it's not an RPG.
I'd love a sandbox MMO with horizontal progression and emphasis on roleplaying (note, roleplaying, not RPG features)
Good to have that settled.
Also, OP's first post didn't mention RPG (or the full "MMORPG") at any time. It was only us quarrelsome few who began discussing RPG definitions. It just so happened to take place in this topic.
I'm not angry at all. I am merely adding a bit of insight and clarification into the point you are trying to make. In that sense I consider myself supporting your plight, not arguing against it. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what we call a game. It's game play defines what it is, not what we chose to call it. There is a place for all video game genres to coexist in this industry. There is no need to criticize, chastise or down play one over another. In that regard, this entire thread has been an exercise in futility. Again, if what you want is a "sandox MMO," then ask for it. The MMORPG genre has nothing to do with your concern as this complaint can be just as easily applied to the FPS/MOBA/Whatever genre's, in regard to what they do not offer, are lacking, and can be improved upon to include any of a variety of a player's game play preference.
"Blue" functions because it refers to a color that's distinct from other colors. If we called everything "blue", it would be objectively useless as a word.
With "MMO" I often argue the literal meaning. Why? Because when all games are called "MMO" the term is objectively useless, but when the literal meaning is used the term distinguishes massively multiplayer games from non-massive ones.
With "RPG" 99% of games involve playing a role. So the term would be objectively useless because it would fail to distinguish one type of game from another.
There's a strong logical basis for using words in a way which keeps them useful and functional. Only people who deliberately want conversations on a topic to be confusing should argue in favor of words that objectively provide less meaning.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As Gray Philosopher pointed out, at no point were the terms "MMORPG" or "RPG" used in my original post. Only MMO. While I disagree that vertical progression or scripted story are needed to make an RPG an RPG it's a completely separate argument than the one I made in my OP.
You are the one that read me talking about what I want in MMOs and just assumed that "MMO" was meant to be followed with RPG.
A regular sandbox game however usually most of the time do not have leveling. This is why I said at some point in the thread that the OP's idea would be a game changer to both themeparks and sandbox mmos.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
I did not mean to imply that Sandbox MMO's did not require a form of leveling and progression. Of course they do. What they don't require is a story. And therein lies the basic difference between an MMORPG and a sandbox MMO.
Strongly disagree with the way you're differentiating "MMO" and "MMORPG".
- All red cars are red.
- Not all cars are red.
- Cars aren't the only thing which are red.
- Until you pair "red" with a noun, it isn't describing anything. It's nothing by itself.
MMO is an adjective just like "red":"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
For sure two very different types of games but I don't think the inclusion and exclusion of the term RPG is what separates them. You can have Themepark MMORPGs and Sandbox MMORPGs. Infact the most immersed I've ever felt in the role of my character was when I first tried Mortal Online. Buggy mechanics and poorly implemented features eventually ruined the title for me, but for about 48 hours there were points I almost forgot that I was playing a game. I was just some guy running around the wild taming horses and riding them back to town to sell.
What?
It's an adjective to a genre.
The noun (RPG) describes a game's gameplay.
The adjective (MMO) modifies that gameplay. It only means a game is massively multiplayer and online. That's it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is why I want people around here to write mmorpg when they mean mmorpgs. If they mean any kind of mmo including those that aren't rpgs then mmo is ok.
I believe this is just a little game they are playing on the forum.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
No I did not say MMO is a genre unto itself. I specifically stated that all online video games that are played by a "massive" amount of players fall under the umbrella of an "MMO."