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Looking for advice on laptop

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  • PhoebesPhoebes Member UncommonPosts: 188
    Quizzical said:
    I don't see any need to spend extra for a PCIe SSD over a simple M.2 SSD.  The performance difference basically doesn't matter for consumer use, as you'll be waiting on something else and not the SSD.  So you might as well save yourself about $200 by going with the SanDisk X400 or Samsung 850 EVO.  Other than that, it looks good.
    Thanks! That helps a lot, because now I'm noticing the little bit better cases that are a bit more (and on that one I linked before (http://www.sagernotebook.com/Notebook-NP8172-S.html), I just noticed it doesn't have a removable battery - not that big of a deal, but I would like to be able just pop another one in if it dies or I could use a second if I need to run it without being plugged in for longer). So maybe I can save on the SSD.

    http://www.sagernotebook.com/Notebook-NP9172-S.html


  • PhoebesPhoebes Member UncommonPosts: 188
    Is IC Diamond Thermal Compound a good thing to get for $35 or is the standard one good? I'm guessing if I get this, they will need to take it apart and remove/replace the compound? I'm assuming it doesn't come from the factory with the IC Diamond Thermal Compound, since it's not listed as standard.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,125
    Phoebes said:
    Is IC Diamond Thermal Compound a good thing to get for $35 or is the standard one good? I'm guessing if I get this, they will need to take it apart and remove/replace the compound? I'm assuming it doesn't come from the factory with the IC Diamond Thermal Compound, since it's not listed as standard.
    Waste of money unless you're an extreme overclocker.  It is extremely important that you use thermal compound, but it basically doesn't matter which thermal compound you use.  Look here:

    http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/thermal-compound-roundup-october-2011/5/

    The things toward the bottom are random household materials or no compound at all.  As you can see, not using thermal compound at all is terrible.  But among real thermal compounds, the temperature differences likely tended to be within measurement error.  And simple household mayonnaise performed about as well as an average thermal compound, with only the problem that it will go rancid and not last long.

    Perhaps it would help to explain what thermal compound does.  A CPU or GPU has an integrated heatspreader which conducts heat very well.  The heatsink on top of it also conducts heat very well.  (They're typically copper and/or aluminum.)  Both are smooth at a macroscopic level, to try to get as much metal on metal contact for good heat conduction as possible.

    But at an atomic level, they're nowhere near smooth.  So there are a bunch of tiny air bubbles between them.  Air is a terrible heat conductor, about 10000 times worse than copper or aluminum.

    Enter thermal paste. The idea is to put some fairly viscous liquid between the heatspreader and heatsink to try to squeeze out the air bubbles.  As you're only trying to replace microscopic air bubbles, it only takes a little bit.  Many people use too much and virtually no one uses too little.  Thermal paste typically has a heat conductivity about 100 times worse than copper or aluminum, but still 100 times better than air.  So you don't want a thick layer of paste between the heatspreader and heatsink; you only want to get rid of the air bubbles.

    As shown in the link above, lots of liquids do a serviceable job of conducting heat better than air, and pretty much anything that someone comes up with as a thermal paste will do it well.  The real challenge in making a thermal paste is something that can last years without decaying.  But just about everything that anyone uses is up to the task, including the thermal paste that comes on stock heatsinks included for free with a CPU.

    If this thermal paste conducts heat twice as well as that one, it really doesn't make that big of a difference.  100 times better than air is the key, and 50 or 200 times better than air isn't that far from 100.  So maybe the $35 thermal paste would keep your CPU a degree or two cooler than the stock paste under an artificial stress test, with a smaller difference under realistic loads.  Or maybe it wouldn't, but whatever difference it might make is very small--and probably smaller than the difference between using the right amount and using five times as much as you need.
  • PhoebesPhoebes Member UncommonPosts: 188
    Quizzical said:
    Phoebes said:
    Is IC Diamond Thermal Compound a good thing to get for $35 or is the standard one good? I'm guessing if I get this, they will need to take it apart and remove/replace the compound? I'm assuming it doesn't come from the factory with the IC Diamond Thermal Compound, since it's not listed as standard.
    Waste of money unless you're an extreme overclocker.  It is extremely important that you use thermal compound, but it basically doesn't matter which thermal compound you use.  Look here:

    http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/thermal-compound-roundup-october-2011/5/

    The things toward the bottom are random household materials or no compound at all.  As you can see, not using thermal compound at all is terrible.  But among real thermal compounds, the temperature differences likely tended to be within measurement error.  And simple household mayonnaise performed about as well as an average thermal compound, with only the problem that it will go rancid and not last long.

    Perhaps it would help to explain what thermal compound does.  A CPU or GPU has an integrated heatspreader which conducts heat very well.  The heatsink on top of it also conducts heat very well.  (They're typically copper and/or aluminum.)  Both are smooth at a macroscopic level, to try to get as much metal on metal contact for good heat conduction as possible.

    But at an atomic level, they're nowhere near smooth.  So there are a bunch of tiny air bubbles between them.  Air is a terrible heat conductor, about 10000 times worse than copper or aluminum.

    Enter thermal paste. The idea is to put some fairly viscous liquid between the heatspreader and heatsink to try to squeeze out the air bubbles.  As you're only trying to replace microscopic air bubbles, it only takes a little bit.  Many people use too much and virtually no one uses too little.  Thermal paste typically has a heat conductivity about 100 times worse than copper or aluminum, but still 100 times better than air.  So you don't want a thick layer of paste between the heatspreader and heatsink; you only want to get rid of the air bubbles.

    As shown in the link above, lots of liquids do a serviceable job of conducting heat better than air, and pretty much anything that someone comes up with as a thermal paste will do it well.  The real challenge in making a thermal paste is something that can last years without decaying.  But just about everything that anyone uses is up to the task, including the thermal paste that comes on stock heatsinks included for free with a CPU.

    If this thermal paste conducts heat twice as well as that one, it really doesn't make that big of a difference.  100 times better than air is the key, and 50 or 200 times better than air isn't that far from 100.  So maybe the $35 thermal paste would keep your CPU a degree or two cooler than the stock paste under an artificial stress test, with a smaller difference under realistic loads.  Or maybe it wouldn't, but whatever difference it might make is very small--and probably smaller than the difference between using the right amount and using five times as much as you need.

    Wow thanks for the info! That's good to know.

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,061
    edited August 2016
    The stuff that comes with most heatsinks is fine - you may need to reapply it in a couple of years if you see your temps go up for no other good reason, but most of the time it's fine, and they usually include enough to install the heatsink 2-3 times over.

    I don't like the thermal pads that heatsinks come with sometimes. It looks a bit like pink chewing gum, and is usually pre-applied to a heatsink - kind of like double sided tape. That stuff is horrible, it has a bad tendency to glue itself on, to get brittle and crack over time, and is a royal pain to clean up after it's been used. If your heat sink has that stuff pre-applied, scrape it off with a credit card (or something else plastic and smooth), then clean the surface with a bit of rubbing alcohol before putting on some real past.

    A small dab will do you - like butter on toast, not PB on J
  • 13lake13lake Member UncommonPosts: 718
    edited August 2016
    That link Quizzical posted is a bit outdated. It doesn't feature any paste in the liquid metal category, which make an average of 5 degrees difference to a slightly above average quality paste.

    For instance Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut makes more than 5 degrees difference to a run of the mill couple of dollar paste.



    For $10 (thermal grizzly is sort of a hybrid, it's easily removable) :

    http://www.performance-pcs.com/brand--thermal-grizzly/?p=2

    There's only one problem, liquid metal tim are hard to clean off :)

    gelid gc-extreme is a close second for $8 (it's also not a liquid metal paste)

    http://http//www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4TZ2WD5329&cm_re=gelid_solutions_gc-extreme-_-9SIA4TZ2WD5329-_-Product

    the best bang for your buck is $6 noctua nt-h1 :

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4TZ2W01943
    Post edited by 13lake on
  • PhoebesPhoebes Member UncommonPosts: 188
    I bought a laptop today. Thanks for all of your help everyone! =)
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,125
    Well then, what did you get?
  • PhoebesPhoebes Member UncommonPosts: 188
    I went with this one:
    http://www.sagernotebook.com/Notebook-NP9172-S.html

    But I got 512 GB SSD

    I stayed with the 1060, although I really wanted the 1070, but it's just too much more expensive right now.

    I liked these cases (9172) better than the (8172,8173, etc) cases.


    I really liked the NP9872-S but it's just past my budget.

  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 1,061
    Phoebes said:
    I'm about to buy a laptop soon and I'm trying figure out where to cut corners to keep the price down.

    I would love to get some advice on a few things :)

    Video Card:
    There is a big jump in price between the nvidia 1060 and 1070. Is there really that noticeable of a difference in performance?

    Honestly, I don't play really demanding games... but that could change in the future.



    Hard Drives:

    Also .. Is the heat generated from a HDD in a laptop noticeable?

    I plan to get a SSD for the main drive, but wondering if it's worth the money to get one as the secondary drive too. (though not as fast as the primary one...)

    i bought a 500 dollar laptop.  was reviewed on many sites as great.  all site reviews mentioned how much having an HDD is a downside.  and IT IS.  Spend the extra 200 bucks and get an SSD.  I honestly plan to pass this laptop to my mother very shortly if I can't run some upcoming Action RPGs on it smoothly.  I havent had an HDD in like years and it is loud and runs hot.  GET A SSD.  SPEND THE EXTRA 150-200 BUCKS.  IT IS 100% WORTH IT.  Take it from someone who bought a laptop with a HDD. HDD is slow.

    IMPORTANT:  Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING.  Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally.  If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead.  I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING.  Thank you.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,125
    Phoebes said:
    I went with this one:
    http://www.sagernotebook.com/Notebook-NP9172-S.html

    But I got 512 GB SSD

    I stayed with the 1060, although I really wanted the 1070, but it's just too much more expensive right now.

    I liked these cases (9172) better than the (8172,8173, etc) cases.


    I really liked the NP9872-S but it's just past my budget.

    Sounds like it should be a good laptop for you.  The 1070 is faster than the 1060, but it's also a lot more heat and power.  Even on an infinite budget, there's a pretty good case for not getting the fastest GPUs available in a laptop.

    I asked what you got because occasionally people come ask for help, then buy something random that wasn't even on the radar.  More commonly, people buy something random then come here to ask if it's any good.  But you did it right.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,125
    time007 said:
    Phoebes said:
    I'm about to buy a laptop soon and I'm trying figure out where to cut corners to keep the price down.

    I would love to get some advice on a few things :)

    Video Card:
    There is a big jump in price between the nvidia 1060 and 1070. Is there really that noticeable of a difference in performance?

    Honestly, I don't play really demanding games... but that could change in the future.



    Hard Drives:

    Also .. Is the heat generated from a HDD in a laptop noticeable?

    I plan to get a SSD for the main drive, but wondering if it's worth the money to get one as the secondary drive too. (though not as fast as the primary one...)

    i bought a 500 dollar laptop.  was reviewed on many sites as great.  all site reviews mentioned how much having an HDD is a downside.  and IT IS.  Spend the extra 200 bucks and get an SSD.  I honestly plan to pass this laptop to my mother very shortly if I can't run some upcoming Action RPGs on it smoothly.  I havent had an HDD in like years and it is loud and runs hot.  GET A SSD.  SPEND THE EXTRA 150-200 BUCKS.  IT IS 100% WORTH IT.  Take it from someone who bought a laptop with a HDD. HDD is slow.
    He was going to get an SSD all along.  The question was whether to go SSD only and use the SSD for bulk data storage, or to get an SSD and a hard drive and use the hard drive for bulk data storage.

    Laptop hard drives only put out about 2 W or so.  If it's running hot, it's from ambient heat elsewhere in the system.  Hard drives do make some noise, but I'd expect it to be drowned out while gaming by fan noise.
  • PhoebesPhoebes Member UncommonPosts: 188
    Quizzical said:
    Phoebes said:
    I went with this one:
    http://www.sagernotebook.com/Notebook-NP9172-S.html

    But I got 512 GB SSD

    I stayed with the 1060, although I really wanted the 1070, but it's just too much more expensive right now.

    I liked these cases (9172) better than the (8172,8173, etc) cases.


    I really liked the NP9872-S but it's just past my budget.

    Sounds like it should be a good laptop for you.  The 1070 is faster than the 1060, but it's also a lot more heat and power.  Even on an infinite budget, there's a pretty good case for not getting the fastest GPUs available in a laptop.

    I asked what you got because occasionally people come ask for help, then buy something random that wasn't even on the radar.  More commonly, people buy something random then come here to ask if it's any good.  But you did it right.

    Can't wait to get it. Thanks for the help. I have certainly learned a lot in the past few days!

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    Unicron- said:
    Have you looked at Sager  laptops?  They have a  better build  quality and cooling. http://www.sagernotebook.com/Sager-Gaming-Notebooks/
    I have own several (have 2 atm) and have nothing but good experiences with them.  You should consider one for sure.
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