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Potential problem with group content.

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573

Potential problem and some drawbacks with hard content. 

Vanguard would be a good example, with this game everything is assuming a persistently large population.  I played Vanguard shortly after SOE took over and introduced the trial island.  This was a time where the population was "Just ok ".  I'm judging this by doing a player count using the social panel and seeing a large amount of players in central hubs and popular questing areas.  Being "just ok" in population many zones had few players as you moved higher.......Problem is many quest were group quest and the population didn't support that.

Very little could be done in zones such as this if the populations were low.


I consider myself good at finding players using the social panel and constantly chatting with others, yet still in many cases I couldn't fill the requirements made to play.

I hate mega servers, this splits communities.  Good well organized guilds would help solve this, but often their are too many Guilds and smaller guild players would miss out.  GUILDS WOULD HAVE TO BE LARGE.


A big problem with mmos, especially with relying on a social community is Wayyyy to many Guilds.  Everyone wants to be Guild Master, the head cheese.  Small Guilds such as this cant support players at all levels.  Think about it, how can you expect to have five players WILLING to group between levels 20-25 if Guilds are small ?

Make Guilds extremely hard to start.  Or better yet, limit the amount of Guilds.



Post edited by delete5230 on

Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,006
    Hence the invention of server wide LFD tools to quickly bring people together.  Worked so well it was expanded to include all severs, then along came the megaservers to seal the deal.

    But like all good things, there are drawbacks to this approach, particularly to socialization mechanics which I haven't seen many good solutions for yet.  Anyone got some ideas?

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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    edited August 2016

    I hope they can stay away from LFG tools across realms.


    In Vanguard ( SOE version ) close to the end, players got together and joined one Guild.  This worked out well, at least for new players.  Players eventually realized they better be part of something bigger in such a community game.

     I'm sure the serious vets had something for themselves too, something deeply organized.  


    Post edited by delete5230 on
  • Kayo83Kayo83 Member UncommonPosts: 399
    Im fine with an LFG that just puts groups together automatically from around the server. No porting, just put them together, have some sort of alert that youre now in group for X content, and youre set. Honestly though if you have a game where grouping is needed for almost everything, then almost everyone playing is going to be looking to group for something. Its its own solution, in a way.

    Other than that players will just have to cope with the trade off. This game will likely require players to put in that extra effort to play with others. Plenty of games out there for those that stubbornly refuse to play with others.
  • Raidan_EQRaidan_EQ Member UncommonPosts: 247
    Kayo83 said:
    Honestly though if you have a game where grouping is needed for almost everything, then almost everyone playing is going to be looking to group for something. Its its own solution, in a way.

    That's a great point - if grouping doesn't occur given your statement, I'd argue it's either poor population numbers (either low server pop or too large of a world and not enough players to adequately fill the zones) or soloing is a viable alternative for progression.

    I'm not a fan of automation though, but, maybe through the LFG UI there could be some visible alerts to who is seeking group in your level range etc.  I always hated the /ninja invites without conversation in game.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    edited August 2016

    This is true, everyone should be like minded others as long as the population supports it.

    As I talked about it before long time ago, Dungeons and Dragons had something unique.


    Everyone had a personal bulletin board built into their UI.  Players can type what they are looking for so everyone can read........It was even nice if your new you can say "i'm new and willing to try something new" then state your intentions.  You would be surprised how this stuff attracts attention.

    It's like the LFG thing without the auto zone crap,

    Please, PLEASE NO AUTO ANYTHING.

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,691
    I think most important question is, are people able to group together?

    If the game is designed to limit grouping by level, by equipment quality, by what quests you can do, by what classes are required for group to work together, and by strict limit on group size, then there are never going to be enough people to find groups.

    LFG tools aren't a solution. The game needs to be build from ground up so that people can be flexible about what group they join and still get the benefit they want.

    I don't think Pantheon devs are able to build that kind of game. They have a great vision, but I think too large ego to see possible problems with their vision.
     
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,827
    edited August 2016
    Agree with @Kayo83; the worst part about LFG/LFR/LFD is the total mechanization not the part it groups people together.

    The fact you sit your ass semi-afk in some random area waiting to be teleported into a dungeon.
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  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Nyctelios said:
    Agree with @Kayo83; the worst part about LFG/LFR/LFD is the total mechanization not the part it groups people together.

    The fact you sit your ass semi-afk in some random area waiting to be teleported into a dungeon.


    I am opposed to the idea characters being teleported to their group / dungeon as a general game mechanic. Teleporting makes even the largest game worlds seem small and inconsequential.


    The only form of teleport I support is class based. For example, Magicians in EQ using Call of the Hero to pull party members from a dungeon entrance to the group. I would not be opposed to a Call of the Hero spell that could pull party members from much further, but the ability should be limited to a single class.


    Similarly, I would support wizards and druids having long range teleports. It is a non-combat feature that adds depth and nice perks to specific classes.

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  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    "If not having a girlfriend ever becomes a reason not to play Dungeons & Dragons, then this game is in real trouble."

    - Sheldon Cooper

    Honestly, there are a lot of people who probably want to make friends or at least join groups, but they are just not good at those type of interactions. LFG tools help compensate for that limitation, but it also makes the game feel more like an Excel spreadsheet and less like a virtual world. 

    If it were up to me, Inns would become the LFG area where players gather to form groups. Some type of feature (devised by folks more clever than I) would be added to Inns to make them best suited to that purpose. That seems more realistic to me too. Where did Frodo hook up with Aragorn? In an Inn. Where did Luke and Obi Wan find a ship and a pilot? In an Inn.  

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  • KellerKeller Member UncommonPosts: 602
    Guilds usually work together. Especially to fill raids.


    One of the better features of GW2 was that you could be a member of more than 1 guild. Other games like STO and Neverwinter have excellent Guild Alliances with shared chat channel. Also the usage of custom global chat channels is quite common (and easy to create and join).

    I do agree that zones/areas can feel empty once everyone has leveled his main and alts. So I would rather "pray" for intelligent zone design and dynamic events which lure max lvl players to these "leveling" zones.
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,691
    edited August 2016
    Amathe said:

    If it were up to me, Inns would become the LFG area where players gather to form groups. Some type of feature (devised by folks more clever than I) would be added to Inns to make them best suited to that purpose. That seems more realistic to me too. Where did Frodo hook up with Aragorn? In an Inn. Where did Luke and Obi Wan find a ship and a pilot? In an Inn.  
    Asking players to stop whatever they're doing and travel 15 minutes to an inn whenever they want to LFG would be like asking players to regularly take a shit in game. No matter how realistic it is, most players would absolutely hate it.
     
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited August 2016
    This group discussion again.

    While group automation mechanics present a unique problem unto itself, there is a larger problem behind grouping that many of us abhor, and that is the mentality of the current gamer generation that makes grouping the horrible experience that it has become.  And while this larger problem can be somewhat mitigated by those with a large circle of friends or long time guild mates, the larger majority of MMO players do not fall into those categories.

    This is the primary reason why solo game play has become the de facto primary mode of game play in current gen MMORPGs.  Players simply prefer to do the solo thing in order to avoid having to deal with the asshat behavior that currently permeates throughout the MMO industry.  When and/or if MMORPG developers ever get around to solving the rude, elitist, inconsiderate, selfish, and obnoxious human behavior that makes grouping the horrible experience that it has become, then we will be unto something. Until then grouping mechanics, be they automated or advanced via a social construct, will continue to be an unwelcome and unsavory experience, and therefore continue to be shunned by the larger MMORPG game playing demographic.

    This, of course, not withstanding the fact that without an automated LFG grouping mechanic, very few of us have the time, or patience, to wait for what amounts to sometimes an eternity before even finding a group to finally begin playing the game in the first place.  
  • FollowthislogicFollowthislogic Member UncommonPosts: 28
    This group discussion again.

    While group automation mechanics present a unique problem unto itself, there is a larger problem behind grouping that many of us abhor, and that is the mentality of the current gamer generation that makes grouping the horrible experience that it has become.  And while this larger problem can be somewhat mitigated by those with a large circle of friends or long time guild mates, the larger majority of MMO players do not fall into those categories.

    This is the primary reason why solo game play has become the de facto primary mode of game play in current gen MMORPGs.  Players simply prefer to do the solo thing in order to avoid having to deal with the asshat behavior that currently permeates throughout the MMO industry.  When and/or if MMORPG developers ever get around to solving the rude, elitist, inconsiderate, selfish, and obnoxious human behavior that makes grouping the horrible experience that it has become, then we will be unto something. Until then grouping mechanics, be they automated or advanced via a social construct, will continue to be an unwelcome and unsavory experience, and therefore continue to be shunned by the larger MMORPG game playing demographic.

    This, of course, not withstanding the fact that without an automated LFG grouping mechanic, very few of us have the time, or patience, to wait for what amounts to sometimes an eternity before even finding a group to finally begin playing the game in the first place.  
    True I am always one of the top 5 or 10 ppl to hit level cap on server so I don't have any friends at start of games my level to play with and the crap the groups I am in give people for not knowing all encounters on day one and two is so ridiculous. Than this pug group of pricks move on to the pvp level grind together and just crap on every new max person that joins. 

    Usually the most vocal pricks aren't even good either  and you just start to get so sick of it all fast.


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Vrika said:
    Asking players to stop whatever they're doing and travel 15 minutes to an inn whenever they want to LFG would be like asking players to regularly take a shit in game. No matter how realistic it is, most players would absolutely hate it.
    I didn't say that that would be the only way people could form groups. Of course not. Just that there would be some type of facilitation in that area. 

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  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,368
    Addressing guilds, I like the concept of clans that Jade Dynasty had (I'm sure it wasn't the only game to have the idea but its the only one that comes to mind). Pretty much people could make guilds but join together to form a clan, so it really didn't matter if people were doing their own thing since you still had clan chat and such.

    Personally, I feel things need to be individuals with a bonus to grouping. Most mmos lower your exp, loot, etc if you group with people so often times people will just solo or do their own things, making this game pretty un-appealing to the large solo-social groups that play mmos today. You kind of want to aim for things being accessible for everyone but making it more appealing to be in a group versus not since you'll receive bonuses by doing so. Of course the bot trains will be trying to abuse the system and this game will definitely have them since most games like this in the past did, but gotta keep trying for that middle ground. No game will ever be perfect but it doesn't mean devs should stop trying.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    This group discussion again.

    While group automation mechanics present a unique problem unto itself, there is a larger problem behind grouping that many of us abhor, and that is the mentality of the current gamer generation that makes grouping the horrible experience that it has become.  And while this larger problem can be somewhat mitigated by those with a large circle of friends or long time guild mates, the larger majority of MMO players do not fall into those categories.

    This is the primary reason why solo game play has become the de facto primary mode of game play in current gen MMORPGs.  Players simply prefer to do the solo thing in order to avoid having to deal with the asshat behavior that currently permeates throughout the MMO industry.  When and/or if MMORPG developers ever get around to solving the rude, elitist, inconsiderate, selfish, and obnoxious human behavior that makes grouping the horrible experience that it has become, then we will be unto something. Until then grouping mechanics, be they automated or advanced via a social construct, will continue to be an unwelcome and unsavory experience, and therefore continue to be shunned by the larger MMORPG game playing demographic.

    This, of course, not withstanding the fact that without an automated LFG grouping mechanic, very few of us have the time, or patience, to wait for what amounts to sometimes an eternity before even finding a group to finally begin playing the game in the first place.  
    Putting the chicken before the egg. Its the environment created by convenience that makes that kind of behavior acceptable. Yes, it exists in all mmorpgs but when players can thrive on their own in complete anonymity, of course it brings out the worst in people. Without accountability, there will be lawlessness.

    When people aren't playing against each other and must seek out others to succeed, it becomes a far more cordial and cooperative environment.


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573

    A group based game needs to be well thought out.

    Most of the early and mid time mmos were not well thought out.  Chain quest were an extremely bad idea, this shuts down any chance for others to join a group.  Every developer ran with this bad idea !

    The bad part of it all.  Instead of making games more natural and organic to bring players together they went with AUTO EVERYTHING.

    Bad ideas:

    LFD, Auto travel, Dynamic events. Easiest solution of all ?........make the games solo.

    Good ideas:

    Much faster travel ( in game, nothing that brings you out ),  Using the social panel ( encourage players to use it ). No chain quest ( ever ).


    Why players spam open chat for hours is beyond me, No one reads rolling chat !

     


  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335

    I was perfectly happy with the LFG tools in Everquest around the time of LDoN.


    The only issues came from people, something no toolset is going to correct.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
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  • DempseySR1979DempseySR1979 Member UncommonPosts: 9
    I hope there is no auto anything in this game.  It's going to be a niche game that not everyone will want to play and I'm happy about that.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,350
    I don't agree with problems for 5/6 man groups,they will imo be few problems.
    However you hit it on the nose for the type of content i detest ....RAIDING.

    Catch 22,devs see raiding as a gimmick word that attracts a certain demographic.So we are likely to see such content even though down the road it will guarantee 100% alienate a LARGE portion of the player base.

    I was around for all of SOE's journey and imo they NEVER learned much from their bad design mistakes.

    It really comes down to the entire game design and why i so often rate so many games as crap.It is not as simple as create classes,create combat,there has to be a LOT of thought that goes into it.

    A developer wants to learn from the best  and tweak the problems, mistakes,then look at the way FFXI was designed.There is an awesome design there waiting to happen if a developer can think of the big picture and not simple formulas or simple ideas.

    I in no way what so ever am saying FFXI is THE DESIGN,i am saying "look at it"in it's entirety and IMPROVE on it because imo it is the best design to start with,it just needs improvement.

    To simply copy a linear questing game,is crap,i don't want any of that linear game play and to simply try and recreate another EQ1 or VG or EQ2 or WOW is not good enough either.


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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,350
    nobody including myself can dissect an entire game design in a chat forum,you can't even design the entire scope of combat and grouping.
    That is why you see all these crap games because devs are building them instantly from scratch without any pre thought or i mean VERY little thought.

    If we don't see several months of pre-planning BEFORE a game is started,then that game will definitely not be worth our time.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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