UPDATED: Oculus Hierarchy Named Directly in Amended Lawsuit - MMORPG.com News

SBFord · August 2016

Oculus Hierarchy Named Directly in Amended Lawsuit - MMORPG.com News

UPDATE: Oculus has issued the following statement based on the expanded lawsuit filing:

This complaint filed by ZeniMax is one-sided and conveys only ZeniMax's interpretation of the story. We continue to believe this case has no merit, and we will address all of ZeniMax's allegations in court.

Zenimax has taken the gloves off in its ongoing lawsuit against Oculus. The suit, first filed in 2014, alleges that technology used to create the VR device was stolen from the Zenimax. The amended lawsuit now names CEO Brendan Iribe and id Software's John Carmack directly. The suit alleges that Carmack "copied thousands of documents from a computer at ZeniMax to a USB storage device. He never returned those files or all copies of them after his employment was terminated".

Read the full story here

[Deleted User] · August 2016

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SEANMCAD · August 2016

The law is not as cut and dry on this subject as one might think. There is a lot of depends here such as 'why did it take Zenimax 3 years to file given the entire world including Zenimax knew who was working on VR and what it looked it also,if a company explictly states they are not working on a project nor plan to what happens with the legal aspects of the code? I dont know

Octagon7711 · August 2016

Wouldn't they have to prove that he was working as an agent of Facebook rather then just doing it for his own personal gain? Also a lawsuit that alleges criminal acts would probably have to be deferred to criminal court first, I'm thinking.

postlarval · August 2016

SEANMCAD said:

The law is not as cut and dry on this subject as one might think. There is a lot of depends here such as 'why did it take Zenimax 3 years to file given the entire world including Zenimax knew who was working on VR and what it looked it also,if a company explictly states they are not working on a project nor plan to what happens with the legal aspects of the code? I dont know

This is an amended complaint from 2014, less then a year after the incident. If your going to accuse someone of theft, you have to make absolutely sure of the accusation.

Sounds like they're absolutely sure.

I always wondered why they were so good at envisioning VR but had such a hard time executing. This may explain it.

observer · August 2016

"Further, the suit increases its allegations that Palmer Luckey is not the inventor of contemporary virtual reality."

"Oculus, at Iribe’s direction, disseminated to the press the false and fanciful story that Luckey was the brilliant inventor of VR technology who had developed that technology in his parents’ garage," the new document reads.

I think it's pretty ridiculous that they would even bring this up. It's laughable. They might have a case that their documents were stolen, but it all just seems very petty.

SEANMCAD · August 2016

Octagon7711 said:

Wouldn't they have to prove that he was working as an agent of Facebook rather then just doing it for his own personal gain? Also a lawsuit that alleges criminal acts would probably have to be deferred to criminal court first, I'm thinking.

I would agree on that second point, not sure on your question.

Also, what was taken matters to.

if I take a document that shows graphics looks larger when you hold a cell phone close to your face. does that mean he cant tell people that or does that mean other people are in violation of the law if they discover it on their own?

companies often try to patent things that are normally rather common and fairly obvious but they are not always successful in such efforts.

point being, VR was going to happen regardless and it was going to happen the way it happend. there are enough people on the planet someone at somepont was going to ask what happens when you hold phone close to your face

Phry · August 2016

Not a fan of the OR, but every time this comes up from Zenimax, they look a bit dirtier than the previous time, seems to me there must be a lot going on behind the scenes here, it looks to me that this is Zenimax's attempt again to bully some cash out of the OR developers, its kind of hard not to see Zenimax as looking dodgy, makes you wonder if they really need the cash?

H0urg1ass · August 2016

SEANMCAD said:

The law is not as cut and dry on this subject as one might think. There is a lot of depends here such as 'why did it take Zenimax 3 years to file given the entire world including Zenimax knew who was working on VR and what it looked it also,if a company explictly states they are not working on a project nor plan to what happens with the legal aspects of the code? I dont know

My father is VP of R&D for a company that produces exercise equipment, apps and trainers for health enthusiasts. He has filed many patents and patent pending documents. We've had several conversations discussing this type situation.

One of the reasons that Zenimax didn't jump on them immediately is because you have to know exactly what and how they're making something before you can conclusively state that they are stealing from you. If these guys had simply taken the idea and executed it completely differently, then there would be no lawsuit.

It's like the difference between the Oculus and HTC Vive. They are so different in design and implementation that there's no cause for a lawsuit. Zenimax has cause to believe, after seeing the final product, that their ideas specifically were used to in the development of the Oculus. If they can prove this in court, then I hope those Facebook bucks are good enough to keep the company running. This is the kind of thing that bankrupts companies.

Shodanas · August 2016

If the lawsuit has solid base then this is going to be BIG!

I do not know about Brendan Iribe however John Carmack is not an idiot to just lift all these documents in a usb stick as Zenimax claims.

Phry · August 2016

Shodanas said:

If the lawsuit has solid base then this is going to be BIG!

I do not know about Brendan Iribe however John Carmack is not an idiot to just lift all these documents in usb stick as Zenimax claims.

I guess it depends on what those documents are, did he perhaps create them himself? if so, is he not allowed to keep a copy of them also?
There is a lot we don't know, but law suits are a lot like pre release game hype, until it gets to court you don't know just how much of it is over inflated BS.

SEANMCAD · August 2016

H0urg1ass said:

SEANMCAD said:

The law is not as cut and dry on this subject as one might think. There is a lot of depends here such as 'why did it take Zenimax 3 years to file given the entire world including Zenimax knew who was working on VR and what it looked it also,if a company explictly states they are not working on a project nor plan to what happens with the legal aspects of the code? I dont know

It's like the difference between the Oculus and HTC Vive. They are so different in design and implementation ...

but they are not. they are actually remarkably similar.

the Dev kits for the Oculus existed long before Zenimax filed and Dk1 and DK2 and CV1 although very different in quality are all basically the same

Kyleran · August 2016

Phry said:

Shodanas said:

If the lawsuit has solid base then this is going to be BIG!

I do not know about Brendan Iribe however John Carmack is not an idiot to just lift all these documents in usb stick as Zenimax claims.

I guess it depends on what those documents are, did he perhaps create them himself? if so, is he not allowed to keep a copy of them also?
There is a lot we don't know, but law suits are a lot like pre release game hype, until it gets to court you don't know just how much of it is over inflated BS.

All depends on the rules of the firm.

Where I work you may not keep copies, in fact all USB devices are disabled, you can't send to your private email and anything you invent while in their employ belongs to them.

Likely Zenimax didn't have anything so ironclad.

waynejr2 · August 2016

::Grabs popcorn::

SEANMCAD · August 2016

Kyleran said:

Phry said:

Shodanas said:

If the lawsuit has solid base then this is going to be BIG!

I do not know about Brendan Iribe however John Carmack is not an idiot to just lift all these documents in usb stick as Zenimax claims.

I guess it depends on what those documents are, did he perhaps create them himself? if so, is he not allowed to keep a copy of them also?
There is a lot we don't know, but law suits are a lot like pre release game hype, until it gets to court you don't know just how much of it is over inflated BS.

All depends on the rules of the firm.

Where I work you may not keep copies, in fact all USB devices are disabled, you can't send to your private email and anything you invent while in their employ belongs to them.

Likely Zenimax didn't have anything so ironclad.

However, a lot of corporate contracts written for employees are basically useless and not enforceable. They are often just written to try and scare employees into non-compete for example.

so there is that problem

SBFord · August 2016

UPDATE: Oculus has issued the following statement based on the expanded lawsuit filing:

This complaint filed by ZeniMax is one-sided and conveys only ZeniMax's interpretation of the story. We continue to believe this case has no merit, and we will address all of ZeniMax's allegations in court.

Shodanas · August 2016

SBFord said:

UPDATE: Oculus has issued the following statement based on the expanded lawsuit filing:
This complaint filed by ZeniMax is one-sided and conveys only ZeniMax's interpretation of the story. We continue to believe this case has no merit, and we will address all of ZeniMax's allegations in court.

It's a typical response from someone who got served a lawsuit. Since they are going to court it seems that Oculus is confident about their part of the story.

SEANMCAD · August 2016

Shodanas said:

SBFord said:

UPDATE: Oculus has issued the following statement based on the expanded lawsuit filing:
This complaint filed by ZeniMax is one-sided and conveys only ZeniMax's interpretation of the story. We continue to believe this case has no merit, and we will address all of ZeniMax's allegations in court.

It's a typical response from someone who got served a lawsuit. Since they are going to court it seems that Oculus is confident about their part of the story.

no I would say that is not a typical statement.

A typical statement is usually silence.

Asgrim · August 2016

A former workplace of mine went through a similar lawsuit. My boss had left a company and apparently took some files with him to start his own business. Guess what happened? He spent 5 years in court and eventually lost everything.

If Carmack developed anything on ZeniMax's dime and took it over to Oculus, he's screwed. The end.

SEANMCAD · August 2016

Asgrim said:

A former workplace of mine went through a similar lawsuit. My boss had left a company and apparently took some files with him to start his own business. Guess what happened? He spent 5 years in court and eventually lost everything.

If Carmack developed anything on ZeniMax's dime and took it over to Oculus, he's screwed. The end.

again it depends

1. on EXACTLY what was 'stolen'
2. the idiocy of the person in question
3. the foresight involved.

John Carmack is not a moron, we dont know what was 'stolen', not all things claimed as ownership of a company actually is, some of it that is property is not enforceable for shit.

jbladder · August 2016

Phry said:

Shodanas said:

If the lawsuit has solid base then this is going to be BIG!

I do not know about Brendan Iribe however John Carmack is not an idiot to just lift all these documents in usb stick as Zenimax claims.

I guess it depends on what those documents are, did he perhaps create them himself? if so, is he not allowed to keep a copy of them also?
There is a lot we don't know, but law suits are a lot like pre release game hype, until it gets to court you don't know just how much of it is over inflated BS.

Most major corporations legal council forces employees to sign document and policy that anything created on company time with company PC's or resources belongs to the company regardless of who created it within the organization. Even the large hospital that employs 28000 people I work for does this and we create almost nothing unique as far as IP type documents or knowledge goes.

I am very careful never to use their time or PC's to generate any unique content or data that I would want to use for myself later as they are rabid about suing people for screwing them. I would wager that most software houses are much more strict on these types of policies. Data is your business and if you want to keep your business you better secure your data.

We have policy in place at our shop that would not even have allowed him to copy anything to a flash drive on any domain connected PC and without that he never would have had access.

jbladder · August 2016

Asgrim said:

A former workplace of mine went through a similar lawsuit. My boss had left a company and apparently took some files with him to start his own business. Guess what happened? He spent 5 years in court and eventually lost everything.

If Carmack developed anything on ZeniMax's dime and took it over to Oculus, he's screwed. The end.

As he should have. He stole from them for personal gain. Even if he made the materials they paid him to do it already, so he got his from it at that point. Any further gain without their permission is stealing.

SEANMCAD · August 2016

jbladder said:

Asgrim said:

A former workplace of mine went through a similar lawsuit. My boss had left a company and apparently took some files with him to start his own business. Guess what happened? He spent 5 years in court and eventually lost everything.

If Carmack developed anything on ZeniMax's dime and took it over to Oculus, he's screwed. The end.

As he should have. He stole from them for personal gain. Even if he made the materials they paid him to do it already, so he got his from it at that point. Any further gain without their permission is stealing.

so much for a court of law we have all the evidence we need in this here accusation.

Zenimax are saying things, you believe them

postlarval · August 2016

Phry said:

Shodanas said:

If the lawsuit has solid base then this is going to be BIG!

I do not know about Brendan Iribe however John Carmack is not an idiot to just lift all these documents in usb stick as Zenimax claims.

I guess it depends on what those documents are, did he perhaps create them himself? if so, is he not allowed to keep a copy of them also?
There is a lot we don't know, but law suits are a lot like pre release game hype, until it gets to court you don't know just how much of it is over inflated BS.

When you sign an employment agreement with any company who produces IP, it specifically states that anything produced while working for the company belongs to the company. I've never worked for a company that doesn't do this.

He is NOT allowed to keep a copy since it doesn't belong to him.

SEANMCAD · August 2016

postlarval said:

Phry said:

Shodanas said:

If the lawsuit has solid base then this is going to be BIG!

I do not know about Brendan Iribe however John Carmack is not an idiot to just lift all these documents in usb stick as Zenimax claims.

I guess it depends on what those documents are, did he perhaps create them himself? if so, is he not allowed to keep a copy of them also?
There is a lot we don't know, but law suits are a lot like pre release game hype, until it gets to court you don't know just how much of it is over inflated BS.

When you sign an employment agreement with any company who produces IP, it specifically states that anything produced while working for the company belongs to the company. I've never worked for a company that doesn't do this.

He is NOT allowed to keep a copy since it doesn't belong to him.

HOWEVER, many items in those contracts are NOT enforceable.

Case in point many non-compete agreement are absolutely not enforceable as written. There is a lot of context that has to be met which often is not

not to mention just because a company says something doesnt mean their accusation is even true and never mind that said company didnt say WHAT was taken specifically. Think you can put someone in jail or bankrupt them for taking email adddresses? nope, so WHAT was taken actually matters here

postlarval · August 2016

SEANMCAD said:

Kyleran said:

Phry said:

Shodanas said:

If the lawsuit has solid base then this is going to be BIG!

I do not know about Brendan Iribe however John Carmack is not an idiot to just lift all these documents in usb stick as Zenimax claims.

I guess it depends on what those documents are, did he perhaps create them himself? if so, is he not allowed to keep a copy of them also?
There is a lot we don't know, but law suits are a lot like pre release game hype, until it gets to court you don't know just how much of it is over inflated BS.

All depends on the rules of the firm.

Where I work you may not keep copies, in fact all USB devices are disabled, you can't send to your private email and anything you invent while in their employ belongs to them.

Likely Zenimax didn't have anything so ironclad.

However, a lot of corporate contracts written for employees are basically useless and not enforceable. They are often just written to try and scare employees into non-compete for example.

so there is that problem

Where did you get that little gem? From some stoned hippie wannabe while sitting in your tent at the last Occupy gathering?

It's called a work-for-hire provision in an employment contract. Most specifically state the company owns anything you produce while working there. If you signed it, it's enforceable.

But please try your line of thinking with Apple, Microsoft, or Samsung and see where it gets you.

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UPDATED: Oculus Hierarchy Named Directly in Amended Lawsuit - MMORPG.com News

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UPDATED: Oculus Hierarchy Named Directly in Amended Lawsuit - MMORPG.com News

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거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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