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Harder PVE Monsters Ideas
nerovergil
Member UncommonPosts: 680
Most MMOs i encountered has a very easy PVE mobs. For example, GW2, teso, archeage, bdo.
Monsters line of sight for aggressive behavior was very bad.
Even when my character was located on their logical line of sight, they wont attacking the player (even the monsters was aggressive types). The monsters waiting the player come very very near, only then they will attack.
Monsters are so dumb, they saw their kind being attacked by players, but they just standing there like nothing happen, waiting their turn to be slaughtered.
This makes the game boring. no thrill, no danger..too stereotype..we need next gen, new fresh gameplay!!!
Its need more tweak, in term of the AI, especialy logical line of sight and aggressive behavior.
AI will have logical line of sight (im not sure, maybe 100 meters? 200 meters?) if the monsters is aggresive types, they will attacking any player that appear on their sight.
Monster will spawn in group of 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 for 20% chance each. Meaning there is 20% a monsters will spawn solo on the area, 20% chance to spawn in group of 5, 4, 3 or 2
It wont be stereotype monster spawn alone all the time.
monster range from level 1 to level 5 share the same area (1 huge map contains several area, like gw2, teso, probably level 1-10 share the same leveling maps. if the max level of the game was 100, developer can only create 10 maps...easier for them, but dev can always make more if they want, meaning if every map has levels 1-5, to achieve level 100, they will need to create 20 maps.).
there is allocation for monster of every level to spawn. Meaning the area will always have 20% of level 1 monsters populating it. if level 1 monster die, it will spawn another level 1, same goes for other levels.
why level 1-5 share the same area? it will be hard. yes it will be hard, no more relaxing, killing 1 monster after another. player need to plan their attack properly, player will need to attack and retreat. player will need escape skills, because monsters will chase you for 300 meters.
about AI for chasing.
monsters will spawn in the area with specific guarding radius. Meaning they will guard, attack, wandering, chase, any player within their radius. the radius could be 300 metres. if the player runs away from their guarding area, mobs will retreat and go back to their guarded area. but in wont be as buggy as teso (where monsters will be over powered running back and insta heal, i know this to prevent player kiting style, but insta heal is broken)
there is many mobs in the area, each mobs will cover 300 meters radius. sometimes player will encountered 2, 3 groups of mobs that share the same radius. fight if u can, retreat if u cant.
of course with this systems, solo leveling will be pain in the ass. its required tactic, not just grind. but its an mmorpg, they will be other players.
Monsters line of sight for aggressive behavior was very bad.
Even when my character was located on their logical line of sight, they wont attacking the player (even the monsters was aggressive types). The monsters waiting the player come very very near, only then they will attack.
Monsters are so dumb, they saw their kind being attacked by players, but they just standing there like nothing happen, waiting their turn to be slaughtered.
This makes the game boring. no thrill, no danger..too stereotype..we need next gen, new fresh gameplay!!!
Its need more tweak, in term of the AI, especialy logical line of sight and aggressive behavior.
AI will have logical line of sight (im not sure, maybe 100 meters? 200 meters?) if the monsters is aggresive types, they will attacking any player that appear on their sight.
Monster will spawn in group of 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 for 20% chance each. Meaning there is 20% a monsters will spawn solo on the area, 20% chance to spawn in group of 5, 4, 3 or 2
It wont be stereotype monster spawn alone all the time.
monster range from level 1 to level 5 share the same area (1 huge map contains several area, like gw2, teso, probably level 1-10 share the same leveling maps. if the max level of the game was 100, developer can only create 10 maps...easier for them, but dev can always make more if they want, meaning if every map has levels 1-5, to achieve level 100, they will need to create 20 maps.).
there is allocation for monster of every level to spawn. Meaning the area will always have 20% of level 1 monsters populating it. if level 1 monster die, it will spawn another level 1, same goes for other levels.
why level 1-5 share the same area? it will be hard. yes it will be hard, no more relaxing, killing 1 monster after another. player need to plan their attack properly, player will need to attack and retreat. player will need escape skills, because monsters will chase you for 300 meters.
about AI for chasing.
monsters will spawn in the area with specific guarding radius. Meaning they will guard, attack, wandering, chase, any player within their radius. the radius could be 300 metres. if the player runs away from their guarding area, mobs will retreat and go back to their guarded area. but in wont be as buggy as teso (where monsters will be over powered running back and insta heal, i know this to prevent player kiting style, but insta heal is broken)
there is many mobs in the area, each mobs will cover 300 meters radius. sometimes player will encountered 2, 3 groups of mobs that share the same radius. fight if u can, retreat if u cant.
of course with this systems, solo leveling will be pain in the ass. its required tactic, not just grind. but its an mmorpg, they will be other players.
Comments
what makes it hard?
the fact that monsters spawn in group was challenging enough.
as level 1, if you are not retarded or bad player, surely u can beat 1 same level mobs right? but what if there were 2? 3? 4? or 5?
that required tactical play and team play
if leveling was fun, people will play
Boring as hell. If you go that route, you should just have everyone the same. Then you will see and understand how boring it will be.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
whats boring is easy monsers. we need stronger more smarter monsters
Gw2 Sucked.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I think action combat is where you can have a more engaging "pure" tank. Rather than yelling at the mob for it to keep attacking you, one would have to stun, slow, snare and physically intercept mobs, and their attacks, from hitting allies. Not that traditional aggro mechanic tanking is bad, just not very exciting or creative.
That said, without some for of mob control, either aggro or CC based, it becomes a cluster and worse off IMO. The GW2 style of chaos and lack of real strategy in events, etc. wore off quickly for me.
No healer or tanks made the game a ballerina show with everyone rolling left and right and kiting until x dies. Yay "fun"...
Make it so that the deeper you go into the npc's territory, it becomes suicidal.
Such an idea require some kind of land or space area where the player can travel for some time. Or, maybe some cave system for example.
I'd love to see a more reactive AI combined with mob placements that made more sense from a narrative perspective, to make it less 'gamey'.
Instead of a big open plain with wolves patrolling their own little square every 5 meters, have a big open plain with packs of wolves patrolling the whole area randomly.
Maybe have them attack and chase "prey animals" on their own. Make them cower away when outnumbered or just alone. Make them howl for help from nearby wolves. Make them assault players in packs, etc. etc.
Make it seem like the world is actually reacting to my presence as a player in the game.
i remember a fight where player stayed in rotation for days. i cant find the video but it was a really long ass fight. people...were...playing...in rotation for days
In terms of PVE Final Fantasy Universe is the best. Best all.
We don't need that.
1. HUGE # of server CPU cycles to process very big amount of scripts all the time
2. Lot of programmer hours writing scripts for mobs in diffrent parts of game and debbugins it
3. Difficiculty - i.e. what I would personally want from normal ordinary mobs in terms of scripting and smart difficulty is more than 90%+ of players would want
That's not even touching things like latency, etc
Problem is both technological and economical as well as conceptual.
Kinda why MMORPGs mobs / open world actual difficulty haven't progressed much since first MMORPG in 1997.
As for Pantheon - no chance. Won't touch indie MMORPG with a 5 feet pole.
Besides things I hear about EQ1 (and Pantheon is supposed to be spiritual succesor?) like spawn camping or big amount of grinding are opposite of what I would want.
For better AI combat I do use those small amount of single player games that do try to make it interesting or sometimes even try to innovate.
cpu cycles, scripts are these terms supposed to give street cred?
Who says NPC AI can't be driven by a GPU server?
Who says NPC decisions should follow 'scripts'?
Who says behavioural decisions are relatively expensive compared to collision detection or movement pathing?
Who says less predictable behaviour is more susceptible to latency?
Such a huge factor when it comes to game play and it's pretty much been ignored.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
We need more creativity with Mob AI, its pretty much been completely ignored.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
If not scripts then what they 'should' follow?
I include collision detection (not necessarily with player characters or other NPCs as game may not feature this, but with buildings, etc) and movement pathing in "Ai" in this particular example as those things would be needed is NPCs would be "smarter", more "independant", reactive, free-roaming, etc
I said reactive behaviour specificially, so if you wanna ask something about that and latency go ahead.
If each mob was "a challenge" then players would eventually get tired of another 5 battle for every mob.
Unless of course the game designed changed so that battles would be more infrequent.
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
u eat, feel full? then stop..
thats basic things..
what important is, before i get tired, i had fun fighting mobs..not a boring retard ai grind.
how can i get immersive in the game if the ai is stupid retard? even 5 years old can level up with that easy ai
In short, "realistic AI" is a bad idea for most types of games, and certainly not the best way to increase difficulty in a game.
If you don't want to take my developer's word for it, you could take another developer's word for it: Soren Johnson's Playing To Lose AI Talk.
As I recall, the summary of when it makes sense to have realistic AI from his talk is basically 'when the AI is acting as substitute for a human player' in PVP-focused games like Starcraft or Chess. (Though certainly an argument could be made that much of Starcraft's focus in SC2 has been PVE, and in those situations the AI deliberately doesn't play 'realistically' but instead plays in a way which presents interesting challenges and choices to players.)
The primary failing of MMORPG difficulty design is a lack of difficulty slider. Anyone implying that a MMORPG should be universally challenging (ie it should lack easy encounters) is simply wrong, because that excludes the vast majority of unskilled players from enjoying the game. Instead, you implement a difficulty (or game mechanics which achieve the same thing) which lets every player seek their own perfect sweet spot between boredom (too easy) and frustration (too hard). The higher the difficulty, the greater the reward. But that difficulty would be achieved through the timing and threat of mob abilities (shorter margins of error, and more frequent skill-checks) rather than through mob AI.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Moreover, yes i agree, the difficult setting must be reasonable.
too easy, people get boring, too hard people will rage quit.
I want to create a leveling system that is challenging in solo and group.
solo player will usually will solo leveling (if no player around) on the area where monsters is same level as he is.
example, A is level 1, he leveling solo at level 1 area, full with level 1 mobs.
streotype mmo = mobs will spawn alone, waiting to be slaughter by player
my new ideas = mobs has 20% chance to spawn solo, 2 , 3 , 4 or 5..............mobs also more alert of their surrounding.....not just that, mobs like bandits, no just standing doing nothing, they do their own things. example, some bandit were chatting wth others, some will patroling, some will sitting, cooking, if you come at night some will sleeping...............
remember this is not stereotype older mmorpg, where poporing, roda frog, lunatic will wander endlessly....bandit is intelligent creature, they have many race, it will random, like human, orc , elf, etc...they will do what normal human do (for immersion)....and at the place they spawn will have bandit camp, they will hunt rabbits, dear if not fighting players
For player that leveling in group, example 5 players, all level 2.....they can try leveling at level 3 area..more exp with more thrill