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Retention of achievement
Amathe
Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
Suppose you play Pantheon and reach max level. Suppose further that it takes you 9 months to accomplish that. [I am not advocating that 9 months should be the number - it's just a placeholder in my hypothetical]. And lastly, suppose 9 months is the average amount of time it takes to level a character to max [ignoring variances like class, player skill, and so on].
Now you have an accomplishment - a max level character which represents 9 months of in game effort.
Next comes an expansion, and my question related to it. Does the company keep things as they are, where it will also take new players 9 months on average to reach whatever max level was in the original game. Or, as WoW does, do you modify the game with every expansion so that people can quickly "catch up" to the players who went before? In that way every expansion is basically a reset.
Personally, I hate the reset approach. I want other players to have to expend more or less the same time and effort I (and others) spent for the same rewards - not just that it be handed to them.
Of course, the problem with doing that is attracting new players in the years to come. If you tell a prospective new player, "it's gonna take you 3 years to catch up, and when you do it will take 3 more years from there," well, it's hard to sell the game that way.
What do you guys think?
Now you have an accomplishment - a max level character which represents 9 months of in game effort.
Next comes an expansion, and my question related to it. Does the company keep things as they are, where it will also take new players 9 months on average to reach whatever max level was in the original game. Or, as WoW does, do you modify the game with every expansion so that people can quickly "catch up" to the players who went before? In that way every expansion is basically a reset.
Personally, I hate the reset approach. I want other players to have to expend more or less the same time and effort I (and others) spent for the same rewards - not just that it be handed to them.
Of course, the problem with doing that is attracting new players in the years to come. If you tell a prospective new player, "it's gonna take you 3 years to catch up, and when you do it will take 3 more years from there," well, it's hard to sell the game that way.
What do you guys think?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I dislike rapid advancement enough to level lock my characters in EQ II until all quests in my current level range are completed.
I really, really hate outleveling content before I have a chance to complete it.
Even if that content was released years ago.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
i do think players will be able to power level other players which always helps. if you were to be a seasoned vet and know a friend that wants to start playing, you and your guild can help power level him if you want him high level faster.
power leveling was huge in EQ and i suspect it will be in this mmo as well.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
But.... a hypothetical idea.
Let's say Pantheon is highly successful, but between year 5-10 the numbers are starting to wane due to new players having to catch up and older players moving on
That's where I'd like to see the progeny system be used - ultimately rebooting Pantheon.
Perhaps between year 5-10 there would be content created for expansions along for the old with brand new content (basically creating a second game in parallel) that isn't released. Once the original game is no longer profitable, have a progeny party and restart Pantheon to Pantheon 2.0 and retire characters perhaps with some perks for the salty retired vets in Pantheon 2.0.
But, to avoid everyone /ragequitting due to forced retirement - Perhaps have one server hosted on Pantheon 1.0 for players who still want to experience that content - maybe at a premium sub?
Say the first release goes from 0-100 and expansion goes from 101-200. You had it easy leveling from 0-100 when there were people doing that same content to level with. If you dont make it easier to do those levels then it will be nigh impossible for new people.
I like this. The OP might not like levels. I bet he upgraded his starting gear and doesn't lament those items being replaced.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Adding new content doesn't change the fact that the two character journeys are different.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
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EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I would suggest a system that puts the story out there for people to play but eliminates the grind and extras. Increase XP so that a player levels appropriately from playing thru the content but eliminate the need to do all the sidequests and optional content. They are there, if someone wants to take it slow and take in the sights, let them but do not force it on them.
Implementing some sort of mentoring system would be essential for this to succeed. You reward max level players for doing early / old content with new players (FFXIV daily roulette are a good example of this) and you let the new player live thru the story, learn his / her class without feeling like he has to grind for a year just to be relevant to current content.
My 2 coppers worth.
Cheers,
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
How it worked was, as new content was released, it afforded lower level players greater access to things that were previously rare and powerful. Ideally, you would want to control mudflation enough that it isn't a major problem that leads to total triviality, but gives a new player just enough of an advantage to move them along at a slightly accelerated rate.
In any game with a open, player driven economy, this will eventually take place to some degree. This will make meddling with experience rates unnecessary.
The worst case scenario, imo, is what WoW does by essentially resetting everyone with each new expac, placing them on a level playing field and undermining their previous efforts by replacing powerful items with stuff that is readily accessible to everyone (green quest rewards, etc).
I hate to say it, but b&s kind of has a better grasp on making older content still relevant more so than other games to date (wow and FFXIV included). As tedious as it may be, people still have to run through old stuff to get BiS stuff, rather than just pumping their weapon up.
Come back when you max out all your skills in eve online and say that!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
In the case of higher level and raid content, it should simply extend it without completely undermining the previous. The goal should be to keep the progression path intact, requiring players to conquer previous raid content to prepare for the new.
City of Heroes was a great game!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I dont know if anyone looked at the q&a yet (its on the front page of mmorpg) but here's the link to. Good stuff in there so far since I'm currently reading all of it myself atm.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/4y7sd0/i_am_brad_aradune_mcquaid_cco_for_pantheon_rise/
Edit: I actually just hit the post I was referring to Brad trying to answer a moment ago lol
"There's no easy answer here. Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards and leveling and earning new abilities and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate is one way to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your friends need you to log in with them or order advance -- and most people who want to be part of a team, a team player, respond well to this pressure. As for Pantheon not being as hard core as EQ, I don't think I said that. I said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind I was referring to involved tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism."
Again I have to use World of Warcraft as the best example.
The key is Vanilla wow was LARGE and full of content. It took years before the first expansion. 6 starting areas, many choices to level to 60.
It's imperative that you have replay ability in the raw game first. This allows players to start over and not totally feel like they had done everything before.
Blizzard did the next step right too with the first expansion having more sideways progression with the introduction of two more starting zones and up to level 20. They also added 10 more levels at the end.
This was exactly how any expansion should be done..........Only later they began to screw up. Making the game easy was a major screw up, never do this !
This is not about WoW, it's about how an expansion should be done.
What I believe is a perception issue in these situations is this. In a game (say wow) you started at level 1 and took some time to get to level 60 cap. At level 60 cap, people did various things to continue progression. Then TBC was released and the so called reset happened and the cap was raised from 60 to 70. This is a compaction of experience in a sense where the original set was 60 levels and the new is only 10 levels.
IMO, these games should aim to provide a similar leveling set at each expansion. So TBC should have been level 61-120. The reset gear would help those who didn't raid endgame in vanilla. But if you did a smart job with the endgame gear, you could have designed it to last more than just a few levels into the new content.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
For instance, in EQ's Ruins of Kunark, they upped the level cap from 50 to 60. Getting from 51-55 took about as long as going from 1-30. 55-60 probably took as long as 30-45 or so.
Beyond the content issue, the goal is not to just release a brand new game. Its to expand the current world which should still be relevant. You have to integrate it in, otherwise you're better off just launching a new game. It would make more sense and you'd make a lot more money.
Kunark and Velious were the best expansion I've seen. Items and locations from both the earlier expansion and the vanilla world were still populated and relevant. Even the old raids offered items that were highly sought after for the first 5 years of the game.