Most people like p2w which is why it's being used. In pvp you have to use it to stay competitive. I didn't realize all the disposable cash people really had until I saw the amount of money they put into kickstarters. Not even rich people but people who work hard with regular jobs.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Sure, though, it's very hard for an MMO to actually die. After tomorrow, though, BDO will be a hobbling husk of what could have been, devoid of meaning or any passionate players.
Sounds great, right?
hmmm, we'll see. I think you will be surprised how many people "don't leave".
Yep, we'll see.
The game is already niche in a lot of ways. It has computer requirements most MMO players can't handle, it has no dungeons, it's now p2w with a box price and soft subscription, outfits are $30 etc etc etc.
There's going to be a very very small subset of players that will put up with all of those things at the same time. And whales can't even overspend to make up for the losses thanks to the sales cap per week.
All in all imo it's just a terrible business move and a terrible move for players.
Sure, though, it's very hard for an MMO to actually die. After tomorrow, though, BDO will be a hobbling husk of what could have been, devoid of meaning or any passionate players.
Sounds great, right?
hmmm, we'll see. I think you will be surprised how many people "don't leave".
Yep, we'll see.
The game is already niche in a lot of ways. It has computer requirements most MMO players can't handle, it has no dungeons, it's now p2w with a box price and soft subscription, outfits are $30 etc etc etc.
There's going to be a very very small subset of players that will put up with all of those things at the same time. And whales can't even overspend to make up for the losses thanks to the sales cap per week.
All in all imo it's just a terrible business move and a terrible move for players.
Actually I really do think, even though it seems like a "huge" uproar" that this is a tempest in a teapot.
For instance I'm not leaving. Why? Because as I've said before, I already know that there will always be someone more powerful than me as I have limited time in game. So if they have played 8 hours per day or if they used cash to get that uber equipment, it makes no difference to me when they are ganking me.
I still enjoy the game for what it is. I really believe that a lot of people are in the same boat. Maybe some of the hardcore people will leave though I strongly suspect, as has been shown at least in one instance in the past, they will just become the top customers.
I'm assuming you have already quit?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
"Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. "
Summed up perfectly. Many fail to see this though.
Thats the bare bones of it but there is also the grey areas. Like using RL money to buy cash shop items. Sell said item on cash shop. Use ingame coin you just earned to buy a spot on a raid to get geared (yes guild sell raid gear this way) and now you have a char thats uber all because of RL money. Some would say you can do the same by earning in game gold so no problem. But I can see where some would have a problem with this.
It's still not P2W. I'll concede that some games make it near impossible, to achieve anything feasible, unless you spend cash, but at that point, people will just quit. I don't see it as a problem in BDO though, but we will see once the transition takes place.
How does that not fall under what you quoted? Someone took RL money and advanced their char with the best gear in the game.
Sure, though, it's very hard for an MMO to actually die. After tomorrow, though, BDO will be a hobbling husk of what could have been, devoid of meaning or any passionate players.
Sounds great, right?
hmmm, we'll see. I think you will be surprised how many people "don't leave".
Yep, we'll see.
The game is already niche in a lot of ways. It has computer requirements most MMO players can't handle, it has no dungeons, it's now p2w with a box price and soft subscription, outfits are $30 etc etc etc.
There's going to be a very very small subset of players that will put up with all of those things at the same time. And whales can't even overspend to make up for the losses thanks to the sales cap per week.
All in all imo it's just a terrible business move and a terrible move for players.
Actually I really do think, even though it seems like a "huge" uproar" that this is a tempest in a teapot.
For instance I'm not leaving. Why? Because as I've said before, I already know that there will always be someone more powerful than me as I have limited time in game. So if they have played 8 hours per day or if they used cash to get that uber equipment, it makes no difference to me when they are ganking me.
I still enjoy the game for what it is. I really believe that a lot of people are in the same boat. Maybe some of the hardcore people will leave though I strongly suspect, as has been shown at least in one instance in the past, they will just become the top customers.
I'm assuming you have already quit?
Yeah I haven't logged in since they made the announcement.
I'm still holding a shred of hope that they listen to the community and don't put the change through. Or something like limiting the sales to 1 a week or capping the price to like 10 million an outfit.
I still really love the game and really want to play it, but I refuse to play p2w games.
I can see where your coming from, though. If I was casual, I might not mind the update. All it will really mean is access to "free" outfits/pets etc.
The game can't survive on casual players, though. And whales can't spend more than $150 a week.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
"Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. "
Summed up perfectly. Many fail to see this though.
Thats the bare bones of it but there is also the grey areas. Like using RL money to buy cash shop items. Sell said item on cash shop. Use ingame coin you just earned to buy a spot on a raid to get geared (yes guild sell raid gear this way) and now you have a char thats uber all because of RL money. Some would say you can do the same by earning in game gold so no problem. But I can see where some would have a problem with this.
It's still not P2W. I'll concede that some games make it near impossible, to achieve anything feasible, unless you spend cash, but at that point, people will just quit. I don't see it as a problem in BDO though, but we will see once the transition takes place.
How does that not fall under what you quoted? Someone took RL money and advanced their char with the best gear in the game.
Because advancement does not equal advantage. That's the whole point i've been trying to make. Advancement just means you get there quicker, but it doesn't mean someone has an advantage.
Those with more time will always have an advantage over others, as it's always been. That's the only real advantage they have.
If it was truly P2W, there wouldn't be any other option in obtaining said items, besides paying for them.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
"Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. "
Summed up perfectly. Many fail to see this though.
Thats the bare bones of it but there is also the grey areas. Like using RL money to buy cash shop items. Sell said item on cash shop. Use ingame coin you just earned to buy a spot on a raid to get geared (yes guild sell raid gear this way) and now you have a char thats uber all because of RL money. Some would say you can do the same by earning in game gold so no problem. But I can see where some would have a problem with this.
It's totally ignoring the "over time" factor though.
Is there anyway I get refund because of this new business model?
I can only speak for myself - if you've gotten $30 of entertainment out of it, why even go there?
To punish them for lying, obviously.
Be careful you don't get punished for abusive tentative of charge back. Credit card companies aren't very kind with such things.
It is a bit risky. They definitely mislead us, though.
From a QandA before the release:
Q: ''Will you be a p2win game''?
A: ''No! We arent and wont be a pay to win game''
Couple that with numerous other statements about not going p2w or the monetization model is the way it is to avoid p2w and I think it's perfectly justified.
Not to mention there are reports of many chargebacks being successful. If you chargeback a company that's getting bombarded by chargebacks, obviously your credit card company is going to believe something is up (and something really is up).
If I were Kakao, I wouldn't be as worried about chargebacks as I would be a lawsuit, though.
Lawsuits for what? You have to prove damages. I don't think you have suffered damages over this. And charge backs are still risky. On one hand, they may have said they aren't going P2W, but now you have to define and prove what P2W is. Then there is the ELUA, that every MMORPG I have ever played has the "Experience Subject to Change" clause. So you will run the risk of pissing off your bank when you obviously got $30.00 and knew there would be business model changes somewhere along the line.
I get it, and I agree this is a dick move on the publisher's part. But there are ways to handle it. This probably isn't one of them.
YES, I am a hardcore person in mind and I would love to spend countless of hours into the game I fancy. I love to work HARD to obtain the things I want and especially things that are very hard to get. This gives me a huge accomplishment when succeeding in such thing. The feel of accomplishment is something that makes me keep playing.
So why am I here typing and not playing.... well there are several things, but the MAIN thing is: I am a father. Being a responsible father taking care of my family, my home and my children while having a full time employment makes it IMPOSSIBLE to play as much as I want to, but I achieve other wonderful things in real life as well.
Of course I am jealous about all those that can play as much as they want and can get all those items that I also want, which I can't. I will always be behind those hardcore players, and that is also something I am fully prepared to accept (even if I am still jealous) since having a family and fulltime employment is my choice and I knew what I would have to give up to gain that
This doesn't change the fact that I am still amazed by the success of the hard work these hardcore players do get. They put their life into this (some call them no lifers, which in my eyes are just envy just like in my case where I envy those able to put in this time) and the hard work gives them reward. THIS is precisely how it should be... just as it often is in real life, put in some true effort and you will often be successful.
Having a system like they now will implement where people can simply without any effort gain the same advantage as those putting in an enormous amount of time by just using money is by NO means fair... And yes I am one of those that could afford doing this. This totally takes away the accomplishment of those players that has put in all those huge amount of hours to gain just the same thing someone can buy just with some cash.
It's even more insulting when this comes AFTER they released the game stating it was Buy to Play without any advantages being possible to be bought by the cash shop. Doing this makes the money they spent on the game being basically worthless to them and then we are not even taking the time effort in this statement.
A game should always only take talent and effort into calculation (and some rng ofc) when determine how skilled a player is, money should not affect here.
To give a real life example which is very actual as of this week:
Having a cash shop system like this is basically the same as doping.
Let's say we have a swimmer that has been working so hard since he/she was like 5 years old. She has been practicing on a daily basis for many years now.. now at an age of 22 she/he is one of the top swimmers in the world! All creds to her/him!!
Now we have the other person which is a decent swimmer, but still isn't in the top 5 due to him/her not having the same talent and has not put in the same hours into practice (due to different factors like giving other things priority, not having the same access to the training facilities and trainers). Now he/she have the option to use a drug that boosts his/her performance and chooses to do so and 2 years later he/she is competing for the medals due to this boost, without putting the effort into it.
Ofc the training time, the facilities, the trainers and stuff makes difference, but the biggest difference in sports and E-Sports are something called TALENT.
There is a good reason why using drugs that enhance your performance are prohibited within the competitions (and cheats in E-Sports), since this is giving a UNFAIR advantage against those being clean, talented and putting the full effort into their work.
By the same reason there should not be something giving the same similar shortcuts to players not able to reach the top. All players should be given the same two tools to work with even though all players doesn't have equal of both:
A.) The effort your put into the game is giving your the reward in itself, not everyone are able to put in the time they would like for different reasons, that's how it is just as in my case.
B.) The talent a person receives are unfortunately not equal to all, but that's something we all have to live with. Again something I have to battle with too.
Sorry for the wall of text, but things like this unfortunately destroys the long survival of the games which is something I'm truly missing after being a long time everquest player.
Now I will go back to playing Overwatch being jealous about those no life kiddies that are at max lvl and so skilled and talented that I want to throw my mouse through the screen sometimes and cursing them in like 3 different languages. However sometimes in a streak of goodluck and somewhat skill/talent I manage to beat them (even if it's 1 out of 10) and that accomplisment I feel is soo great! And guess what I can't buy myself the advantage to reach their level, and it annoys me sometimes and I can feel the jealousy and anger rise, and then suddenly my 6 year old daughter enters into the room and smiles, and the jealousy and anger I had is all gone, since I truly appreciate my life as it is too, since this is where I put most of my effort today.
So final statement:
NEVER EVER REMOVE THE NEED OF EFFORT TO ACHIEVE THINGS WITHIN GAMES!
Lets go back to how AA is p2w? Because as far as I know, all you can buy is regrade which is increasing your luck. Buying regrades doesn't automatically cancel out rng though....isn't that just paying for an advancement since lucky is still involved? Also people can buy these regrades without paying actual money since they can buy Apex with gold.
Don't care, game is amazing. i can play how i want to play and that is all that matters to me . This game reminds me of my two favorite games, vanguard soh and shadowbane. It doesn't get much better.
I would say, Black Desert Online IS the greatest mmorpg made to date. A lot of upcoming mmos should be taking notes. lots of notes
Jeezus,,, you people are like the PC social justice warriors who claim everything is sexist, racist, homophobic etc. Any game that has that has a cash shop in your mind is P2W. You people dont even understand what that term means and you overuse it to the point where your complaints are meaningless. You probably think cosmetic things like dye are p2w.
Here is what Pay 2 win means: There is a sword that does 100 damage per hit and there is no way you can acquire it except from a cash shop, otherwise in-game swords only do 50 per hit. <---- this is pay 2 win.<br />
BDO has nothing like this. And the fact that you can now sell cash shop items in-game means the game is LESS P2W than before (based on your definition) because now all you broke poor people can get the EXACT SAME STUFF as people with money but WITHOUT paying real money, but by using your time and in-game virtual silver. This is literally the opposite of P2W.
If anything this is making black desert less pay to win. Since now all players have the opportunity to have anything in the pearl shop for the price of in game currency.
If anything this is making black desert less pay to win. Since now all players have the opportunity to have anything in the pearl shop for the price of in game currency.
An addict will justify their enslavement by any means. You are being farmed... and you do not care. It's embarrassing.
I love black desert, but the game does have its problems in the fact that it is gear based and not skill based.
Play in any server and watch as the community tells you how hard it truly is for a new player to catch up to the Energy, Contribution Points, and Gear that players have. In fact the game starts out easy as one can level from 1 - 50 in 5 - 20 hours. Level 51 - 55 are not so bad, but its not until Level 56+ when you should be hunting in parties of 2 or more players...
To me the game is not purely P2W... However, the game design has the following drawbacks
1) PvP = You will get your ass kicked most of the time by a player with better gear than you. Don't expect to catch up easilly.
2) Logging Off means that workers stop working/farming stops... etc meaning in order to actually get the most out of the economy of the game, a player has to stay logged in forever meaning a higher electric bill and building another PC to play any other game one has as anti cheat will prevent many other games from launching simultaneously...
3) The formula of the game makes the gameplay as follows: Day Cycle - Work on your Life Skill Levels Night Cycle - Work on your EXP and Drops from enemies...
4) Prepare to run through the game multiple times as Alts are golden in this game and even better, you get to run all of those inventory expansion quests again...
5) Regardless how pretty this game is there is a known measure of what "Elite" truly is. The three statuses in gaming to me are Casual, Hardcore, and Elite. BDO enters Hardcore realm with the way Node Wars are and players prepare for all the PvP; however, the game will never be ELITE or even PROFESSIONAL simply because its not Esports Endorsed.
I always tell people in-game... "I like BDO and its graphics and the fact its a sandbox game, but Guild Wars 2 is far more competitive in sPvP because sPvP unlike BDO is actually an Esports game now. Truth is that in the end....professional gamers and true elite gamers are like Schools of Fish who travel together to the latest Esports game or professionally-certified game....
So a player can spend 1000s of hours in BDO and think they are higher than the crop from playing a more current game.... but that isn't how things work. I hate sounding like such a tool, but it is what it is...
I like the game I don't care if people want to try P2Wing in order to reach endgame PvP...
However, rather than insult to pieces developers who work hard at a game; I rather just compare the market to the rest of the gaming market. If most of the time I can find a game on sale through steam or just advertisements; and a lot of B2P games at times drop to 50% of their price where one buys a game for $20 - $30, it becomes unfair to spend twice of the worth of the game one paid for in order to buy in-game items through a cash shop. In BDO it costs more to buy a Full Costume (including weapons etc) through the cash shop than the cost of the game during a sale. In short, it means....
I rather buy another B2P game than spend money in a cash shop....
Your analogy is interesting, because in the United States in some states we have the Romeo and Juliet Laws as well as other relationship laws. The laws state the following... If two minors enter a relationship and the female is one to four years younger than the male (varies by state), as long as sex is consensual between the two; the male will not be charged with statutory rape, but depending on the state the male can still be charged with a misdemeanor.
In some states both partners must be minors, while in some states, one partner may have become an adult as long as the age difference still exists and the relationship was started when both were minors.
I figure that rather than throw an opinion at you as it would be counterproductive, that shedding more light on such an issue I rather have at least introduced the law. This actually helps in some ways; however it also undermines in others your point... however at least I showed you something legal to the matter worth exploring to anyone who reads this post.
Is there anyway I get refund because of this new business model?
I can only speak for myself - if you've gotten $30 of entertainment out of it, why even go there?
To punish them for lying, obviously.
Be careful you don't get punished for abusive tentative of charge back. Credit card companies aren't very kind with such things.
It is a bit risky. They definitely mislead us, though.
From a QandA before the release:
Q: ''Will you be a p2win game''?
A: ''No! We arent and wont be a pay to win game''
Couple that with numerous other statements about not going p2w or the monetization model is the way it is to avoid p2w and I think it's perfectly justified.
Not to mention there are reports of many chargebacks being successful. If you chargeback a company that's getting bombarded by chargebacks, obviously your credit card company is going to believe something is up (and something really is up).
If I were Kakao, I wouldn't be as worried about chargebacks as I would be a lawsuit, though.
Lawsuits for what? You have to prove damages. I don't think you have suffered damages over this. And charge backs are still risky. On one hand, they may have said they aren't going P2W, but now you have to define and prove what P2W is. Then there is the ELUA, that every MMORPG I have ever played has the "Experience Subject to Change" clause. So you will run the risk of pissing off your bank when you obviously got $30.00 and knew there would be business model changes somewhere along the line.
I get it, and I agree this is a dick move on the publisher's part. But there are ways to handle it. This probably isn't one of them.
False advertising is the first and simplest thing that comes to mind. They said the game won't go p2w. They're going p2w. It's not hard to figure out or prove.
As for defining what p2w is, Kakao defined it themselves by stating we couldn't sell items in the marketplace to begin with to avoid p2w.
I'm not personally planning on filing a lawsuit, but I could see one winning. Lawsuits have been won with far less justification (McDonald's coffee anyone?).
I haven't decided if I'm going to attempt a chargeback or not. It depends partly on a few factors:
1. What actually gets implemented tomorrow 2. How pissed off I am about it 3. How much I want to risk my credit
I can't vouch for every single mmo listed in there, but if i had to list some though, i would say Runes of Magic, Allods, or Perfect World. I've only played Perfect World (around 7 years ago), so it's probably changed since then, but that was definitely P2W since higher stats on weapons could only be bought with real money.
P2W definitely exists in a lot of mobile/facebook/zynga games too. Some of those are true P2W games if i've ever seen any.
The next "casual gamer" that throws out the tired excuse (yes, you read that correctly. I typed excuse.) that they have a real life with real responsibilities. Thus they cannot put in the time, effort, and conviction into a game as someone who doesn't "have a life." And so the game should create a means to which they can catch up or be on par with said, "no life." I have a question for you.
Say I'm one of these people who, as you proclaim, has no life and spends a lot of time playing video games (because I enjoy them and find that spending any time doing something I don't enjoy, a waste of my time!). What if I should one day decide that I wish to have a real life such as yours? I'm sure you'd be elated by the thought of one less person spending what you perceive to be too much time on video games. But you have that nice house, and car, and motorcycle. Not to mention an established retirement plan you've been investing in all this time as you've worked diligently in your real life. Well, I don't think that's fair to me that I will have to put in as much time and effort as you have. Since I'm already behind you and you'll continue to accumulate more and more. So I'm going to raise my voice along with enough others who wish to do the same. About how your company should fast-track us to where you are financially, that way it's fair. Never mind the fact we don't have your experience and skills. And in exchange, I have to give them the in-game currencies, items, gear, and achievements I have accumulated during my time as a "no life." Oh! I forgot to mention, I have no intention of dedicating as much time and effort into this concept of "real life" as you do. As I view your "real life" as a waste of time and effort. So I'll only do it on my off-time when I'm not playing video games. But, I expect your company to cater to me since that will make me a happy contributor to the work force, and keep me around despite my lack of time and investment.
My question. Would you be okay with me doing this, and your company also agreeing to do this as a new investment in its workforce?
You absolutely, positively, no thought needed. Would respond with a resounding (and loud) NO!
That's because you value your time, effort, and skill. So to have someone roll in and expect to be put on par with you, by exchanging something they earned elsewhere, is an insult to you and everyone like you who has worked for what they have. There is zero difference to those who spend time and effort into developing their skills and place in a virtual world to yours in the real world. The only difference here is your sense of entitlement because you weigh them differently.
I can only hope reading this, at least one of you drops this "spending money to be on the same level as those who invest the time to earn the same things is okay, because I have a life."
If you can't flip it around and feel the same way. Then it's nothing but an irrational sense of entitlement, and you're part of the problem that's slowly eroding the gaming industry into a cesspool of cash-grabs, clones, and profit-first thinkers. Instead of one focused on creating lasting and truly unique products which cater to their intended audience for years to come.
Welp, I just escalated my Paypal claim. Here's hoping to have my $60 out of these pirates' hands and back into my savings soon.
You can believe whatever you want; you can make whatever arguments you desire to defend this change. But the simple fact of the matter is this: we were charged a buy-to-pay fee under false pretenses - the promise that BDO would be altered (and REMAIN altered) to cater to western audiences, the bulk of whom do not suffer under P2W systems.
As Daum/Kakao saw fit to renege on previous statements upholding the sanctity of the non-P2W system, I consider the current changes to be a breach of our contract, and I expect my money returned. These dodgy Koreans can go suck eggs.
I can't vouch for every single mmo listed in there, but if i had to list some though, i would say Runes of Magic, Allods, or Perfect World. I've only played Perfect World (around 7 years ago), so it's probably changed since then, but that was definitely P2W since higher stats on weapons could only be bought with real money.
P2W definitely exists in a lot of mobile/facebook/zynga games too. Some of those are true P2W games if i've ever seen any.
The first game mentioned in the thread you linked is Arche Age for it's thunder trees you can still earn in game. You just proved my point.
Edit: I think more importantly they describe exactly how making that item available on the cash shop devalued the in-game item.
Post edited by Nilden on
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The game is already niche in a lot of ways. It has computer requirements most MMO players can't handle, it has no dungeons, it's now p2w with a box price and soft subscription, outfits are $30 etc etc etc.
There's going to be a very very small subset of players that will put up with all of those things at the same time. And whales can't even overspend to make up for the losses thanks to the sales cap per week.
All in all imo it's just a terrible business move and a terrible move for players.
For instance I'm not leaving. Why? Because as I've said before, I already know that there will always be someone more powerful than me as I have limited time in game. So if they have played 8 hours per day or if they used cash to get that uber equipment, it makes no difference to me when they are ganking me.
I still enjoy the game for what it is. I really believe that a lot of people are in the same boat. Maybe some of the hardcore people will leave though I strongly suspect, as has been shown at least in one instance in the past, they will just become the top customers.
I'm assuming you have already quit?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm still holding a shred of hope that they listen to the community and don't put the change through. Or something like limiting the sales to 1 a week or capping the price to like 10 million an outfit.
I still really love the game and really want to play it, but I refuse to play p2w games.
I can see where your coming from, though. If I was casual, I might not mind the update. All it will really mean is access to "free" outfits/pets etc.
The game can't survive on casual players, though. And whales can't spend more than $150 a week.
I do spend from $20 to $40 per month though. That's more than a traditional sub.
And what do you mean whales can't spend more then $150 per week? I never saw anything about capping a person's spending?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Advancement just means you get there quicker, but it doesn't mean someone has an advantage.
Those with more time will always have an advantage over others, as it's always been. That's the only real advantage they have.
If it was truly P2W, there wouldn't be any other option in obtaining said items, besides paying for them.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I get it, and I agree this is a dick move on the publisher's part. But there are ways to handle it. This probably isn't one of them.
YES, I am a hardcore person in mind and I would love to spend countless of hours into the game I fancy. I love to work HARD to obtain the things I want and especially things that are very hard to get. This gives me a huge accomplishment when succeeding in such thing. The feel of accomplishment is something that makes me keep playing.
So why am I here typing and not playing.... well there are several things, but the MAIN thing is: I am a father. Being a responsible father taking care of my family, my home and my children while having a full time employment makes it IMPOSSIBLE to play as much as I want to, but I achieve other wonderful things in real life as well.
Of course I am jealous about all those that can play as much as they want and can get all those items that I also want, which I can't. I will always be behind those hardcore players, and that is also something I am fully prepared to accept (even if I am still jealous) since having a family and fulltime employment is my choice and I knew what I would have to give up to gain that
This doesn't change the fact that I am still amazed by the success of the hard work these hardcore players do get. They put their life into this (some call them no lifers, which in my eyes are just envy just like in my case where I envy those able to put in this time) and the hard work gives them reward. THIS is precisely how it should be... just as it often is in real life, put in some true effort and you will often be successful.
Having a system like they now will implement where people can simply without any effort gain the same advantage as those putting in an enormous amount of time by just using money is by NO means fair... And yes I am one of those that could afford doing this. This totally takes away the accomplishment of those players that has put in all those huge amount of hours to gain just the same thing someone can buy just with some cash.
It's even more insulting when this comes AFTER they released the game stating it was Buy to Play without any advantages being possible to be bought by the cash shop. Doing this makes the money they spent on the game being basically worthless to them and then we are not even taking the time effort in this statement.
A game should always only take talent and effort into calculation (and some rng ofc) when determine how skilled a player is, money should not affect here.
To give a real life example which is very actual as of this week:
Having a cash shop system like this is basically the same as doping.
Let's say we have a swimmer that has been working so hard since he/she was like 5 years old. She has been practicing on a daily basis for many years now.. now at an age of 22 she/he is one of the top swimmers in the world! All creds to her/him!!
Now we have the other person which is a decent swimmer, but still isn't in the top 5 due to him/her not having the same talent and has not put in the same hours into practice (due to different factors like giving other things priority, not having the same access to the training facilities and trainers). Now he/she have the option to use a drug that boosts his/her performance and chooses to do so and 2 years later he/she is competing for the medals due to this boost, without putting the effort into it.
Ofc the training time, the facilities, the trainers and stuff makes difference, but the biggest difference in sports and E-Sports are something called TALENT.
There is a good reason why using drugs that enhance your performance are prohibited within the competitions (and cheats in E-Sports), since this is giving a UNFAIR advantage against those being clean, talented and putting the full effort into their work.
By the same reason there should not be something giving the same similar shortcuts to players not able to reach the top. All players should be given the same two tools to work with even though all players doesn't have equal of both:
A.) The effort your put into the game is giving your the reward in itself, not everyone are able to put in the time they would like for different reasons, that's how it is just as in my case.
B.) The talent a person receives are unfortunately not equal to all, but that's something we all have to live with. Again something I have to battle with too.
Sorry for the wall of text, but things like this unfortunately destroys the long survival of the games which is something I'm truly missing after being a long time everquest player.
Now I will go back to playing Overwatch being jealous about those no life kiddies that are at max lvl and so skilled and talented that I want to throw my mouse through the screen sometimes and cursing them in like 3 different languages. However sometimes in a streak of goodluck and somewhat skill/talent I manage to beat them (even if it's 1 out of 10) and that accomplisment I feel is soo great! And guess what I can't buy myself the advantage to reach their level, and it annoys me sometimes and I can feel the jealousy and anger rise, and then suddenly my 6 year old daughter enters into the room and smiles, and the jealousy and anger I had is all gone, since I truly appreciate my life as it is too, since this is where I put most of my effort today.
So final statement:
NEVER EVER REMOVE THE NEED OF EFFORT TO ACHIEVE THINGS WITHIN GAMES!
/E
I would say, Black Desert Online IS the greatest mmorpg made to date. A lot of upcoming mmos should be taking notes. lots of notes
Here is what Pay 2 win means: There is a sword that does 100 damage per hit and there is no way you can acquire it except from a cash shop, otherwise in-game swords only do 50 per hit. <---- this is pay 2 win.<br />
BDO has nothing like this. And the fact that you can now sell cash shop items in-game means the game is LESS P2W than before (based on your definition) because now all you broke poor people can get the EXACT SAME STUFF as people with money but WITHOUT paying real money, but by using your time and in-game virtual silver. This is literally the opposite of P2W.
Play in any server and watch as the community tells you how hard it truly is for a new player to catch up to the Energy, Contribution Points, and Gear that players have. In fact the game starts out easy as one can level from 1 - 50 in 5 - 20 hours. Level 51 - 55 are not so bad, but its not until Level 56+ when you should be hunting in parties of 2 or more players...
To me the game is not purely P2W...
However, the game design has the following drawbacks
1) PvP = You will get your ass kicked most of the time by a player with better gear than you. Don't expect to catch up easilly.
2) Logging Off means that workers stop working/farming stops... etc meaning in order to actually get the most out of the economy of the game, a player has to stay logged in forever meaning a higher electric bill and building another PC to play any other game one has as anti cheat will prevent many other games from launching simultaneously...
3) The formula of the game makes the gameplay as follows:
Day Cycle - Work on your Life Skill Levels
Night Cycle - Work on your EXP and Drops from enemies...
4) Prepare to run through the game multiple times as Alts are golden in this game and even better, you get to run all of those inventory expansion quests again...
5) Regardless how pretty this game is there is a known measure of what "Elite" truly is. The three statuses in gaming to me are Casual, Hardcore, and Elite. BDO enters Hardcore realm with the way Node Wars are and players prepare for all the PvP; however, the game will never be ELITE or even PROFESSIONAL simply because its not Esports Endorsed.
I always tell people in-game...
"I like BDO and its graphics and the fact its a sandbox game, but Guild Wars 2 is far more competitive in sPvP because sPvP unlike BDO is actually an Esports game now. Truth is that in the end....professional gamers and true elite gamers are like Schools of Fish who travel together to the latest Esports game or professionally-certified game....
So a player can spend 1000s of hours in BDO and think they are higher than the crop from playing a more current game.... but that isn't how things work. I hate sounding like such a tool, but it is what it is...
I like the game
I don't care if people want to try P2Wing in order to reach endgame PvP...
However, rather than insult to pieces developers who work hard at a game; I rather just compare the market to the rest of the gaming market. If most of the time I can find a game on sale through steam or just advertisements; and a lot of B2P games at times drop to 50% of their price where one buys a game for $20 - $30, it becomes unfair to spend twice of the worth of the game one paid for in order to buy in-game items through a cash shop. In BDO it costs more to buy a Full Costume (including weapons etc) through the cash shop than the cost of the game during a sale. In short, it means....
I rather buy another B2P game than spend money in a cash shop....
@jesteralways
Your analogy is interesting, because in the United States in some states we have the Romeo and Juliet Laws as well as other relationship laws. The laws state the following...
If two minors enter a relationship and the female is one to four years younger than the male (varies by state), as long as sex is consensual between the two; the male will not be charged with statutory rape, but depending on the state the male can still be charged with a misdemeanor.
In some states both partners must be minors, while in some states, one partner may have become an adult as long as the age difference still exists and the relationship was started when both were minors.
For more information on this matter, please visit
http://romeoandjulietlaw.com/
I figure that rather than throw an opinion at you as it would be counterproductive, that shedding more light on such an issue I rather have at least introduced the law. This actually helps in some ways; however it also undermines in others your point... however at least I showed you something legal to the matter worth exploring to anyone who reads this post.
As for defining what p2w is, Kakao defined it themselves by stating we couldn't sell items in the marketplace to begin with to avoid p2w.
I'm not personally planning on filing a lawsuit, but I could see one winning. Lawsuits have been won with far less justification (McDonald's coffee anyone?).
I haven't decided if I'm going to attempt a chargeback or not. It depends partly on a few factors:
1. What actually gets implemented tomorrow
2. How pissed off I am about it
3. How much I want to risk my credit
I can't vouch for every single mmo listed in there, but if i had to list some though, i would say Runes of Magic, Allods, or Perfect World. I've only played Perfect World (around 7 years ago), so it's probably changed since then, but that was definitely P2W since higher stats on weapons could only be bought with real money.
P2W definitely exists in a lot of mobile/facebook/zynga games too. Some of those are true P2W games if i've ever seen any.
Say I'm one of these people who, as you proclaim, has no life and spends a lot of time playing video games (because I enjoy them and find that spending any time doing something I don't enjoy, a waste of my time!). What if I should one day decide that I wish to have a real life such as yours? I'm sure you'd be elated by the thought of one less person spending what you perceive to be too much time on video games. But you have that nice house, and car, and motorcycle. Not to mention an established retirement plan you've been investing in all this time as you've worked diligently in your real life. Well, I don't think that's fair to me that I will have to put in as much time and effort as you have. Since I'm already behind you and you'll continue to accumulate more and more. So I'm going to raise my voice along with enough others who wish to do the same. About how your company should fast-track us to where you are financially, that way it's fair. Never mind the fact we don't have your experience and skills. And in exchange, I have to give them the in-game currencies, items, gear, and achievements I have accumulated during my time as a "no life." Oh! I forgot to mention, I have no intention of dedicating as much time and effort into this concept of "real life" as you do. As I view your "real life" as a waste of time and effort. So I'll only do it on my off-time when I'm not playing video games. But, I expect your company to cater to me since that will make me a happy contributor to the work force, and keep me around despite my lack of time and investment.
My question. Would you be okay with me doing this, and your company also agreeing to do this as a new investment in its workforce?
You absolutely, positively, no thought needed. Would respond with a resounding (and loud) NO!
That's because you value your time, effort, and skill. So to have someone roll in and expect to be put on par with you, by exchanging something they earned elsewhere, is an insult to you and everyone like you who has worked for what they have. There is zero difference to those who spend time and effort into developing their skills and place in a virtual world to yours in the real world. The only difference here is your sense of entitlement because you weigh them differently.
I can only hope reading this, at least one of you drops this "spending money to be on the same level as those who invest the time to earn the same things is okay, because I have a life."
If you can't flip it around and feel the same way. Then it's nothing but an irrational sense of entitlement, and you're part of the problem that's slowly eroding the gaming industry into a cesspool of cash-grabs, clones, and profit-first thinkers. Instead of one focused on creating lasting and truly unique products which cater to their intended audience for years to come.
You can believe whatever you want; you can make whatever arguments you desire to defend this change. But the simple fact of the matter is this: we were charged a buy-to-pay fee under false pretenses - the promise that BDO would be altered (and REMAIN altered) to cater to western audiences, the bulk of whom do not suffer under P2W systems.
As Daum/Kakao saw fit to renege on previous statements upholding the sanctity of the non-P2W system, I consider the current changes to be a breach of our contract, and I expect my money returned. These dodgy Koreans can go suck eggs.
Edit: I think more importantly they describe exactly how making that item available on the cash shop devalued the in-game item.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/