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Is it Now Pay to Win?BDO Black Desert Online News - MMORPG.com

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  • azurreiazurrei Member UncommonPosts: 332
    I can't wait until Valk's Cry is made available...give it a few weeks to a month at best at the rate we are going. You think there was crying about P2W now? Hahahaha just wait...the flood gates will burst into oceans.
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Iselin said:
    observer said:

    I also find it quite ironic that people think a subscription mmo is also fair, considering that time spent helps those who play more, and casuals who play less, are always at a disadvantage.  Time spent will always be unfair, since people choose how much time they want to play.  A teen or college kid will always have more time than someone who works.
    So what? Talent and efficient time investment are what matters in legitimate competitions such as chess, sports, musical proficiency, etc.

    All I hear you guys saying is that you want shortcuts so you can compete with those who earned their way there the legitimate way. Cash is one shortcut and then there are always cheats... you're OK with the cash shortcut but not the hacks and cheats I take it?

    What you don't say is that buying your way in makes a mockery of the integrity of the competition and that you're jealous of those who put in the time.

    You got it backwards bud: talent, time and effort are the fair ways to compete. So what's next? Pay $$ to get a 50 meter head start on the 100 meter dash? :)


    The problem with that analogy is that it depends on the type of environment.  If it's a professional tournament for any of those activities, then there are certain rules and regulations.  These people train for  years on their own time, and probably use special equipment, dietary plans, etc..  Does that mean they are "cheating" and having an advantage too?  

    An MMO environment is entirely different, since it's not a controlled environment regarding time (unless they are sponsoring certain tournaments, such as in WoW or GW2).  The closest thing to a controlled environment in BDO, is Node Wars, but that's a stretch, since it's an open-world environment where everyone can participate in.
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,071
    Iselin said:
    observer said:

    I also find it quite ironic that people think a subscription mmo is also fair, considering that time spent helps those who play more, and casuals who play less, are always at a disadvantage.  Time spent will always be unfair, since people choose how much time they want to play.  A teen or college kid will always have more time than someone who works.
    So what? Talent and efficient time investment are what matters in legitimate competitions such as chess, sports, musical proficiency, etc.

    All I hear you guys saying is that you want shortcuts so you can compete with those who earned their way there the legitimate way. Cash is one shortcut and then there are always cheats... you're OK with the cash shortcut but not the hacks and cheats I take it?

    What you don't say is that buying your way in makes a mockery of the integrity of the competition and that you're jealous of those who put in the time.

    You got it backwards bud: talent, time and effort are the fair ways to compete. So what's next? Pay $$ to get a 50 meter head start on the 100 meter dash? :)


    Imagine if the Olympics had a cash shop. They could sell things they used to ban players for and would only be scraping the surface of some of the disgusting crap these games companies are pulling.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • sniperman248sniperman248 Member UncommonPosts: 29


    It is not pay2win, let the ignorant western world cry pay2win, they have no idea what pay2win is and they will never know. All western players are capable of is bitching and whining about every little shit that doesn't go there way. They will continue to do so and i predict within next 10 years we will see western developers only releasing their mmo in eastern market and release a watered down single player version with optional multiplayer for western whiners. Sure there will be indie devs who will try to capture western whiners and their super short attention span, each and everyone trying to implement same features in their games and saturating the player base in very tiny groups but major publishers or developers will not publish their mmo in west anymore.



    Yea because we westerners are used to working for our gear, and grinding out those long hours and feeling great for those accolades. Because we westerners believe you must work for it not pay for it.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,184
    observer said:
    Iselin said:
    observer said:

    I also find it quite ironic that people think a subscription mmo is also fair, considering that time spent helps those who play more, and casuals who play less, are always at a disadvantage.  Time spent will always be unfair, since people choose how much time they want to play.  A teen or college kid will always have more time than someone who works.
    So what? Talent and efficient time investment are what matters in legitimate competitions such as chess, sports, musical proficiency, etc.

    All I hear you guys saying is that you want shortcuts so you can compete with those who earned their way there the legitimate way. Cash is one shortcut and then there are always cheats... you're OK with the cash shortcut but not the hacks and cheats I take it?

    What you don't say is that buying your way in makes a mockery of the integrity of the competition and that you're jealous of those who put in the time.

    You got it backwards bud: talent, time and effort are the fair ways to compete. So what's next? Pay $$ to get a 50 meter head start on the 100 meter dash? :)


    The problem with that analogy is that it depends on the type of environment.  If it's a professional tournament for any of those activities, then there are certain rules and regulations.  These people train for  years on their own time, and probably use special equipment, dietary plans, etc..  Does that mean they are "cheating" and having an advantage too?  

    An MMO environment is entirely different, since it's not a controlled environment regarding time (unless they are sponsoring certain tournaments, such as in WoW or GW2).  The closest thing to a controlled environment in BDO, is Node Wars, but that's a stretch, since it's an open-world environment where everyone can participate in.
    There is no such thing as training time limits for any competitions. That notion is nonsensical. The rules that exist are there precisely to prohibit short-cuts, steroids being the most notorious of those.

    I played BDO so I know it's a grindfest. That's the legitimate playing field. You can either stomach that type of game or not, but that's a whole different story than paying cash in-lieu of grinding when playing a grindfest.

    I know that it's a popular cash hook particularly in Asian MMOs. Obviously a lot of people worldwide are OK with shortcuts and companies depend on it for profits. But don't try to tell me that its more fair lol. That's just ridiculous and consigns the games that do that into some weird little "let's pretend we're competing fairly" niche universe.


    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • DztBlkDztBlk Member UncommonPosts: 127
    You guys actually help me understand what p2w means.  As I am reading some of the arguments, I lean towards p2w arguments.  In my opinion, it would be fair to have players earn rewards versus purchasing them.  That said, I'm not really a competitive typically against other players and not super disappointed, but I can see how many others would be.
  • JyiigaJyiiga Member UncommonPosts: 1,136
    edited August 2016
    Anytime real money starts sneaking into parts of the game that directly affect the progression and power of players... slippery slope. I knew this was coming from the get go, because this is how games in that part of the world work. To bad so many people haven't caught onto this yet.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,764
    edited August 2016
    Jyiiga said:
    Anytime real money starts sneaking into parts of the game that directly affect the progression and power of players... slippery slope. I knew this was coming from the get go, because this is how games in that part of the world work. To bad so many people haven't caught onto this yet.
    You're right, but Kakao led every inch of the slippery slope with a statement along the lines of: "We're only doing this to avoid p2w".  

    - You pay $30 for the box even though the game is f2p in other regions to avoid p2w
    - You pay $30 for outfits to avoid p2w
    - Cash shop in general is highly aggressive to avoid p2w
    - Soft subscription (value pack) is added to avoid p2w

    Then

    - Oh btw, we're making the game p2w now.  Thanks.

    If they never talked about p2w, this whole thing would be much less of an issue, and more of a typical standard bullshit corporate move most would just sigh about and move on.  But they made very clear on numerous occasions that they were aware our region did not want p2w, and used that as an excuse for high prices etc. as they were claiming to subsidize supposedly lost p2w profits with $30 outfits and such.

    That is why so many feel betrayed.
  • RPGMASTERGAMERRPGMASTERGAMER Member UncommonPosts: 516

    DMKano said:



    Dauzqul said:


    If anything from the cash shop makes the game quicker and easier, it's P2W.













    According to your definition - Black Desert was P2W at launch as pets, Elions tears, costumes with trade boosts, weight increase, luck boost garments etc.... made the game easier and quicker



    well it was p2win at lauch because these item got stats

    mmorpg are crap and will stay crap until peoples dont accept these shit games p2win

    mmorpg are good when peoples work hard for earn item, that something basic

    if you can pay for everything nothing become special and everything because useless and worthless
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    edited August 2016

    Forum bug ate my post. lol.
  • fearufearu Member UncommonPosts: 273
    Money -> Pearls -> Items -> Silver.

    Where Silver = BIS items + enchants = power to crush noobs without limitations

    Black Desert is now 100% pay to win. Just because you could spend 24/h day no life grinding to eventually get near a casher doesn't exclude how P2W the game is.

    Then there is the whole exploitive cash store in general in BDO with its store-cosmetics only design. You'd have to be real dim to continue spreading your cheeks for whatever they are calling themselves these days.
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Iselin said:
    observer said:
    Iselin said:
    observer said:

    I also find it quite ironic that people think a subscription mmo is also fair, considering that time spent helps those who play more, and casuals who play less, are always at a disadvantage.  Time spent will always be unfair, since people choose how much time they want to play.  A teen or college kid will always have more time than someone who works.
    So what? Talent and efficient time investment are what matters in legitimate competitions such as chess, sports, musical proficiency, etc.

    All I hear you guys saying is that you want shortcuts so you can compete with those who earned their way there the legitimate way. Cash is one shortcut and then there are always cheats... you're OK with the cash shortcut but not the hacks and cheats I take it?

    What you don't say is that buying your way in makes a mockery of the integrity of the competition and that you're jealous of those who put in the time.

    You got it backwards bud: talent, time and effort are the fair ways to compete. So what's next? Pay $$ to get a 50 meter head start on the 100 meter dash? :)


    The problem with that analogy is that it depends on the type of environment.  If it's a professional tournament for any of those activities, then there are certain rules and regulations.  These people train for  years on their own time, and probably use special equipment, dietary plans, etc..  Does that mean they are "cheating" and having an advantage too?  

    An MMO environment is entirely different, since it's not a controlled environment regarding time (unless they are sponsoring certain tournaments, such as in WoW or GW2).  The closest thing to a controlled environment in BDO, is Node Wars, but that's a stretch, since it's an open-world environment where everyone can participate in.
    There is no such thing as training time limits for any competitions. That notion is nonsensical. The rules that exist are there precisely to prohibit short-cuts, steroids being the most notorious of those.

    I played BDO so I know it's a grindfest. That's the legitimate playing field. You can either stomach that type of game or not, but that's a whole different story than paying cash in-lieu of grinding when playing a grindfest.

    I know that it's a popular cash hook particularly in Asian MMOs. Obviously a lot of people worldwide are OK with shortcuts and companies depend on it for profits. But don't try to tell me that its more fair lol. That's just ridiculous and consigns the games that do that into some weird little "let's pretend we're competing fairly" niche universe.


    I'll try this again, hopefully the forum doesn't bug out.

    There's no legitimate playing field though.

    Look at it another way.  The open-world environment in BDO isn't a controlled tournament, or activity, with special rules or regulations.  It's always going to be an unfair environment.  People will always have more time than others.  Guilds will always have more people than other guilds.  People will always have better gear than those who do not....etc.

    The open-world environment is basically like the real world, where people are constantly "training" outside a tournament.  It's always going to be unfair, until BDO has a special tournament or environment.

    Now compare it to GW2's PvP games (or any mmo with tournaments or instanced pvp maps or arenas).  In those games, everything is usually normalized with special rules and regulations.  Stats are usually normalized, player size is controlled, and there are time limits and scoreboards, and so on.

    Paying to advance in an uncontrolled environment isn't actually winning at anything, because there's nothing to win, since there isn't a competition in the first place.
  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,220
    What makes this P2W move so horrible is the other games in this genre being so Fing bad.  Just played WoW, of all games (I need my head checked) and it felt like playing some archaic attempt at I'm not sure what.  After playing BDO since release it has completely destroyed my final bit of tolerance for log in and quest only MMO's.  This is why I bitch about freedom in MMO's so much.  Go play WoW and then play BDO...it is an eye opening experience.  I log in to BDO and have an option of countless things to do (both combat and non combat).  I log in to a WoW character that isn't at max level and I get to linear quest, ugh.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,964
    edited August 2016
    observer said:
    Iselin said:
    observer said:
    Iselin said:
    observer said:

    I also find it quite ironic that people think a subscription mmo is also fair, considering that time spent helps those who play more, and casuals who play less, are always at a disadvantage.  Time spent will always be unfair, since people choose how much time they want to play.  A teen or college kid will always have more time than someone who works.
    So what? Talent and efficient time investment are what matters in legitimate competitions such as chess, sports, musical proficiency, etc.

    All I hear you guys saying is that you want shortcuts so you can compete with those who earned their way there the legitimate way. Cash is one shortcut and then there are always cheats... you're OK with the cash shortcut but not the hacks and cheats I take it?

    What you don't say is that buying your way in makes a mockery of the integrity of the competition and that you're jealous of those who put in the time.

    You got it backwards bud: talent, time and effort are the fair ways to compete. So what's next? Pay $$ to get a 50 meter head start on the 100 meter dash? :)


    The problem with that analogy is that it depends on the type of environment.  If it's a professional tournament for any of those activities, then there are certain rules and regulations.  These people train for  years on their own time, and probably use special equipment, dietary plans, etc..  Does that mean they are "cheating" and having an advantage too?  

    An MMO environment is entirely different, since it's not a controlled environment regarding time (unless they are sponsoring certain tournaments, such as in WoW or GW2).  The closest thing to a controlled environment in BDO, is Node Wars, but that's a stretch, since it's an open-world environment where everyone can participate in.
    There is no such thing as training time limits for any competitions. That notion is nonsensical. The rules that exist are there precisely to prohibit short-cuts, steroids being the most notorious of those.

    I played BDO so I know it's a grindfest. That's the legitimate playing field. You can either stomach that type of game or not, but that's a whole different story than paying cash in-lieu of grinding when playing a grindfest.

    I know that it's a popular cash hook particularly in Asian MMOs. Obviously a lot of people worldwide are OK with shortcuts and companies depend on it for profits. But don't try to tell me that its more fair lol. That's just ridiculous and consigns the games that do that into some weird little "let's pretend we're competing fairly" niche universe.


    I'll try this again, hopefully the forum doesn't bug out.

    There's no legitimate playing field though.

    Look at it another way.  The open-world environment in BDO isn't a controlled tournament, or activity, with special rules or regulations.  It's always going to be an unfair environment.  People will always have more time than others.  Guilds will always have more people than other guilds.  People will always have better gear than those who do not....etc.

    The open-world environment is basically like the real world, where people are constantly "training" outside a tournament.  It's always going to be unfair, until BDO has a special tournament or environment.

    Now compare it to GW2's PvP games (or any mmo with tournaments or instanced pvp maps or arenas).  In those games, everything is usually normalized with special rules and regulations.  Stats are usually normalized, player size is controlled, and there are time limits and scoreboards, and so on.

    Paying to advance in an uncontrolled environment isn't actually winning at anything, because there's nothing to win, since there isn't a competition in the first place.
    There's no more competition in GW2 than there is in BDO. Just because BDO is one giant arena, doesn't mean people or guilds are competitive. Owning the best areas of the map earn your guild a hell of a lot more silver. So trust me, BDO is definitely competitive when it comes to node wars.

    As for those who say cash shop sales are limited per week. While that is true, we don't know the value of said items will have in the market. If something sells for 50,000,000 silver and you can sell 5 a week, that's 250 million a week. You can do a lot with 250,000,000 a week on top of what you can earn from just playing.

    People are also assuming the only ones who would take advantage of purchased silver are people who don't have a lot of time to play. That's a terrible misconception as I'm willing to bet a lot of hardcore gamers are in fact very rich. So now you have people with all kinds of money and time on their hands which creates a very unbalanced playing field in the PvP environment.

    Getting good gear in BDO doesn't happen in a week or even a month. Stop deluding yourselves into thinking BDO isn't going to be P2W. Of course it is, but some of you are just in that "Oh shit I've invested a lot into this game, please don't fuck me over DAUM" phase of denial.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,814
    edited August 2016
    observer said:
    Nilden said:
    @DMKano

    I understand what your opinion on P2W is. I disagree.

    Under your definition none of these MMORPGs are P2W and spending thousands of dollars to get BiS isn't P2W.


    Can the BiS stats be obtained without spending real money?  If so, then it's not P2W.
    It is if BiS is a moving target. (and moving faster than you can grind) Best in slot today, isnt' by the time you get it.
  • healboothealboot Member UncommonPosts: 100
    I might give this game a try now the grind was off putting to me I have plenty of disposable income so watch out noobs here I come
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,764
    observer said:
    Iselin said:
    observer said:
    Iselin said:
    observer said:

    I also find it quite ironic that people think a subscription mmo is also fair, considering that time spent helps those who play more, and casuals who play less, are always at a disadvantage.  Time spent will always be unfair, since people choose how much time they want to play.  A teen or college kid will always have more time than someone who works.
    So what? Talent and efficient time investment are what matters in legitimate competitions such as chess, sports, musical proficiency, etc.

    All I hear you guys saying is that you want shortcuts so you can compete with those who earned their way there the legitimate way. Cash is one shortcut and then there are always cheats... you're OK with the cash shortcut but not the hacks and cheats I take it?

    What you don't say is that buying your way in makes a mockery of the integrity of the competition and that you're jealous of those who put in the time.

    You got it backwards bud: talent, time and effort are the fair ways to compete. So what's next? Pay $$ to get a 50 meter head start on the 100 meter dash? :)


    The problem with that analogy is that it depends on the type of environment.  If it's a professional tournament for any of those activities, then there are certain rules and regulations.  These people train for  years on their own time, and probably use special equipment, dietary plans, etc..  Does that mean they are "cheating" and having an advantage too?  

    An MMO environment is entirely different, since it's not a controlled environment regarding time (unless they are sponsoring certain tournaments, such as in WoW or GW2).  The closest thing to a controlled environment in BDO, is Node Wars, but that's a stretch, since it's an open-world environment where everyone can participate in.
    There is no such thing as training time limits for any competitions. That notion is nonsensical. The rules that exist are there precisely to prohibit short-cuts, steroids being the most notorious of those.

    I played BDO so I know it's a grindfest. That's the legitimate playing field. You can either stomach that type of game or not, but that's a whole different story than paying cash in-lieu of grinding when playing a grindfest.

    I know that it's a popular cash hook particularly in Asian MMOs. Obviously a lot of people worldwide are OK with shortcuts and companies depend on it for profits. But don't try to tell me that its more fair lol. That's just ridiculous and consigns the games that do that into some weird little "let's pretend we're competing fairly" niche universe.


    I'll try this again, hopefully the forum doesn't bug out.

    There's no legitimate playing field though.

    Look at it another way.  The open-world environment in BDO isn't a controlled tournament, or activity, with special rules or regulations.  It's always going to be an unfair environment.  People will always have more time than others.  Guilds will always have more people than other guilds.  People will always have better gear than those who do not....etc.

    The open-world environment is basically like the real world, where people are constantly "training" outside a tournament.  It's always going to be unfair, until BDO has a special tournament or environment.

    Now compare it to GW2's PvP games (or any mmo with tournaments or instanced pvp maps or arenas).  In those games, everything is usually normalized with special rules and regulations.  Stats are usually normalized, player size is controlled, and there are time limits and scoreboards, and so on.

    Paying to advance in an uncontrolled environment isn't actually winning at anything, because there's nothing to win, since there isn't a competition in the first place.
    This argument is akin to saying everyone should take a drug that makes them stupid before playing chess.  Because that would be the only way it would be a fair playing field.

    MMORPGs are RPGs.  The role-playing occurs when you strengthen your character in-game through training.

    Much like you get better at chess over time by playing it, or better at lifting weights by working out, your character becomes a better fighter by killing monsters.

    "Skipping" that process is the same as doping for the olympics.  It's frowned upon.
  • RolanStormRolanStorm Member UncommonPosts: 193
    edited August 2016
    Exactly what article says. Also kudos @SirBalin and @kitard.

    People exaggerate danger coming from this, constantly painting a picture of total doom. Most popular scheme: whale buys 5 costumes (most expensive items), sells them for 350-500mil depending on prices and get enough to gear out. Which is total misdirection. For example there is only one ultimate grunil TRI full set on Jordine market. One. Not even TET or PEN (which, by the way, much more costly). And there is good chance whale can't buy a single set in one week. There are weapons and other gear. Night vendor? While SirBalin absolutely correct about mechanic that prevents from getting anything this instant in a game because of enhancements thing is vendor has outrageous prices. They probably will spend whole weekly amount of silver they gained on single item. Again, getting pure boss item gets whale whole lot of nothing. Have to enhance, have to suffer. ;)

    On the other hand we get access to cash shop items. I just hope they won't sell _only_ costumes. I really want that female horse breeding resets for my steed. Also high-quality Elion's tears would be nice. Its good to get back into combat fully healed.

    As with everything MMORPG... or everything Internet... people just whine and cry 'Wolves!' when there are none.
    Post edited by RolanStorm on
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Rhoklaw said:
    observer said:
    Iselin said:
    observer said:
    Iselin said:
    observer said:

    I also find it quite ironic that people think a subscription mmo is also fair, considering that time spent helps those who play more, and casuals who play less, are always at a disadvantage.  Time spent will always be unfair, since people choose how much time they want to play.  A teen or college kid will always have more time than someone who works.
    So what? Talent and efficient time investment are what matters in legitimate competitions such as chess, sports, musical proficiency, etc.

    All I hear you guys saying is that you want shortcuts so you can compete with those who earned their way there the legitimate way. Cash is one shortcut and then there are always cheats... you're OK with the cash shortcut but not the hacks and cheats I take it?

    What you don't say is that buying your way in makes a mockery of the integrity of the competition and that you're jealous of those who put in the time.

    You got it backwards bud: talent, time and effort are the fair ways to compete. So what's next? Pay $$ to get a 50 meter head start on the 100 meter dash? :)


    The problem with that analogy is that it depends on the type of environment.  If it's a professional tournament for any of those activities, then there are certain rules and regulations.  These people train for  years on their own time, and probably use special equipment, dietary plans, etc..  Does that mean they are "cheating" and having an advantage too?  

    An MMO environment is entirely different, since it's not a controlled environment regarding time (unless they are sponsoring certain tournaments, such as in WoW or GW2).  The closest thing to a controlled environment in BDO, is Node Wars, but that's a stretch, since it's an open-world environment where everyone can participate in.
    There is no such thing as training time limits for any competitions. That notion is nonsensical. The rules that exist are there precisely to prohibit short-cuts, steroids being the most notorious of those.

    I played BDO so I know it's a grindfest. That's the legitimate playing field. You can either stomach that type of game or not, but that's a whole different story than paying cash in-lieu of grinding when playing a grindfest.

    I know that it's a popular cash hook particularly in Asian MMOs. Obviously a lot of people worldwide are OK with shortcuts and companies depend on it for profits. But don't try to tell me that its more fair lol. That's just ridiculous and consigns the games that do that into some weird little "let's pretend we're competing fairly" niche universe.


    I'll try this again, hopefully the forum doesn't bug out.

    There's no legitimate playing field though.

    Look at it another way.  The open-world environment in BDO isn't a controlled tournament, or activity, with special rules or regulations.  It's always going to be an unfair environment.  People will always have more time than others.  Guilds will always have more people than other guilds.  People will always have better gear than those who do not....etc.

    The open-world environment is basically like the real world, where people are constantly "training" outside a tournament.  It's always going to be unfair, until BDO has a special tournament or environment.

    Now compare it to GW2's PvP games (or any mmo with tournaments or instanced pvp maps or arenas).  In those games, everything is usually normalized with special rules and regulations.  Stats are usually normalized, player size is controlled, and there are time limits and scoreboards, and so on.

    Paying to advance in an uncontrolled environment isn't actually winning at anything, because there's nothing to win, since there isn't a competition in the first place.
    There's no more competition in GW2 than there is in BDO. Just because BDO is one giant arena, doesn't mean people or guilds are competitive. Owning the best areas of the map earn your guild a hell of a lot more silver. So trust me, BDO is definitely competitive when it comes to node wars.

    It's not a fair competitive environment though, which was my point.  Guilds and player population isn't controlled, thus the unfair and imbalanced nature of open-world environments.
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    observer said:
    Nilden said:
    @DMKano

    I understand what your opinion on P2W is. I disagree.

    Under your definition none of these MMORPGs are P2W and spending thousands of dollars to get BiS isn't P2W.


    Can the BiS stats be obtained without spending real money?  If so, then it's not P2W.
    It is if BiS is a moving target. (and moving faster than you can grind) Best in slot today, isnt' by the time you get it.
    You just described just about every mmo with progression.  Gear treadmills are constantly moving.  By this logic, expansion packs are considered P2W.
  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 1,061
    every mmo is P2W.  you can buy accounts buy characters.  REAL MONEY BUYS YOU ANYTHING IN ALL MMO'S.

    IMPORTANT:  Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING.  Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally.  If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead.  I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING.  Thank you.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,184
    observer said:
    Iselin said:
    observer said:
    Iselin said:
    observer said:

    I also find it quite ironic that people think a subscription mmo is also fair, considering that time spent helps those who play more, and casuals who play less, are always at a disadvantage.  Time spent will always be unfair, since people choose how much time they want to play.  A teen or college kid will always have more time than someone who works.
    So what? Talent and efficient time investment are what matters in legitimate competitions such as chess, sports, musical proficiency, etc.

    All I hear you guys saying is that you want shortcuts so you can compete with those who earned their way there the legitimate way. Cash is one shortcut and then there are always cheats... you're OK with the cash shortcut but not the hacks and cheats I take it?

    What you don't say is that buying your way in makes a mockery of the integrity of the competition and that you're jealous of those who put in the time.

    You got it backwards bud: talent, time and effort are the fair ways to compete. So what's next? Pay $$ to get a 50 meter head start on the 100 meter dash? :)


    The problem with that analogy is that it depends on the type of environment.  If it's a professional tournament for any of those activities, then there are certain rules and regulations.  These people train for  years on their own time, and probably use special equipment, dietary plans, etc..  Does that mean they are "cheating" and having an advantage too?  

    An MMO environment is entirely different, since it's not a controlled environment regarding time (unless they are sponsoring certain tournaments, such as in WoW or GW2).  The closest thing to a controlled environment in BDO, is Node Wars, but that's a stretch, since it's an open-world environment where everyone can participate in.
    There is no such thing as training time limits for any competitions. That notion is nonsensical. The rules that exist are there precisely to prohibit short-cuts, steroids being the most notorious of those.

    I played BDO so I know it's a grindfest. That's the legitimate playing field. You can either stomach that type of game or not, but that's a whole different story than paying cash in-lieu of grinding when playing a grindfest.

    I know that it's a popular cash hook particularly in Asian MMOs. Obviously a lot of people worldwide are OK with shortcuts and companies depend on it for profits. But don't try to tell me that its more fair lol. That's just ridiculous and consigns the games that do that into some weird little "let's pretend we're competing fairly" niche universe.


    I'll try this again, hopefully the forum doesn't bug out.

    There's no legitimate playing field though.

    Look at it another way.  The open-world environment in BDO isn't a controlled tournament, or activity, with special rules or regulations.  It's always going to be an unfair environment.  People will always have more time than others.  Guilds will always have more people than other guilds.  People will always have better gear than those who do not....etc.

    The open-world environment is basically like the real world, where people are constantly "training" outside a tournament.  It's always going to be unfair, until BDO has a special tournament or environment.

    Now compare it to GW2's PvP games (or any mmo with tournaments or instanced pvp maps or arenas).  In those games, everything is usually normalized with special rules and regulations.  Stats are usually normalized, player size is controlled, and there are time limits and scoreboards, and so on.

    Paying to advance in an uncontrolled environment isn't actually winning at anything, because there's nothing to win, since there isn't a competition in the first place.
    I don't call it pay to win because that's a meaningless and loaded term that usually spawns useless side debates about what is and isn't winning or the strict vs, liberal interpretations of what P2W means. I call them shortcuts deliberately because that's undeniably what they are.

    It's also something that absent a publisher's blessing exists in all MMOs through 3rd party gold sellers. It's nothing more than buying and selling gold for the same reasons and with the same advantages that it has in any MMO.

    The thing is that I don't differentiate between gold buying with or without the publisher's seal of approval in the effect they both have on the integrity of the game. Presumably you and the defenders of this type of scheme do differentiate and you usually excuse this type on the basis of being "good for the game" in the way that healthy profits are good for the continuing support of games.

    But that's neither here nor there in the effect both types of gold buying have on a game: it's the same regardless of who you buy it from in that it introduces external factors that are not meant to be part of the game into them and compromises their integrity.

    It's only slightly less of game changer than exploits, cheats and hacks. I personally think of it as just another type of cheat. 

    And you can't really say that MMO players are not competitive whether they're doing it in a game with normalized PVP or free for all open world PVP like in BDO. Sure, the more formal competitive ones take great pains to create even playing fields. But that doesn't stop players from trying to compete as fairly as possible in the less formal ones.

    I assume you have seen the millions of posts in the PVP forums of all MMOs about what needs nerfing and what needs buffing. What do you think that fuss is all about if not trying to even the playing field? Players want to compete in more or less even playing fields. Paying for shortcuts undermines all of that. 
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,184
    time007 said:
    every mmo is P2W.  you can buy accounts buy characters.  REAL MONEY BUYS YOU ANYTHING IN ALL MMO'S.
    Yup. And we call people that do that lowlife cheaters,. except when it's the publisher itself selling the gold... funny that, eh?
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    The advocates supporting this P2W fiasco are the same people who buy gold from gold sellers and the reason gold sellers run rampant in MMOs now days. Little do they realize that by coming on these forums and making all of these excuses justifying the purchase of in game gold with real life money all they are doing is admitting that they are the same people who have been buying and suppprting these lowlife gold sellers that do nothing but ruin games, while all the while sneakily pretending to be against them. It's shameful. The hypocrisy in mindboggling.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,184
    The advocates supporting this P2W fiasco are the same people who buy gold from gold sellers and the reason gold sellers run rampant in MMOs now days. Little do they realize that by coming on these forums and making all of these excuses justifying the purchase of in game gold with real life money all they are doing is admitting that they are the same people who have been buying and suppprting these lowlife gold sellers that do nothing but ruin games, while all the while sneakily pretending to be against them. It's shameful. The hypocrisy in mindboggling.
    Well maybe they are and maybe they aren't. Maybe some are stopped by the fear of making a financial transaction with some random dodgy dude.

    But it sure as hell takes the same mindset to feel good about buying from either source and rationalizing their BS in forums.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
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