I have almost no time to play anymore, and I hate F2P/Freemium pay models. I'm OK knowing that I won't be as good as others who play 12 hours a day. You play more you should be more powerful. A level playing field is having everything available in game without having to go to a cash shop to get it, and not being able to gear up from the cash shop to compete with all day gamers. It'll take me longer to get there, but I'll still get there. Viva la Sub-Model!
If we see time and money as two ways of investing into a game, then it sounds as if you don't think it is fair that those that have money can get an advantage, but those that have time can get an advantage is fair?
I mean, you claim sub model is fair and a level playing field, because all you invest is time and you will get there someday. But I could argue that a F2P model is just as fair, since you just put in a little bit of money in small doses and you will get there.
I simply don't get the anger against F2P games. Why can't you just pay 15 dollars per month in the f2p game, just as you pay 15 dollars per month in the sub game.
Sub games have never been fair imo, we as players were never on an even playing field. Those with time, got to end-game the fastest, got the cool loot before it was nerfed, used the exploits before they were fixed, got the raid loot/end-game loot and could sell it before the rest got there. It has always been a winning strategy to get to the new stuff first (at least in all the mmorpgs I have played so far). The players with time to play the most (10+hours per day) simply always win. I thought the sub model was fair, because this was what I was used to, this was how it had always been and because I had time. My thoughts have changed since I began looking at both time and money as things to put into a game.
I have almost no time to play anymore, and I hate F2P/Freemium pay models. I'm OK knowing that I won't be as good as others who play 12 hours a day. You play more you should be more powerful. A level playing field is having everything available in game without having to go to a cash shop to get it, and not being able to gear up from the cash shop to compete with all day gamers. It'll take me longer to get there, but I'll still get there. Viva la Sub-Model!
If we see time and money as two ways of investing into a game, then it sounds as if you don't think it is fair that those that have money can get an advantage, but those that have time can get an advantage is fair?
I mean, you claim sub model is fair and a level playing field, because all you invest is time and you will get there someday. But I could argue that a F2P model is just as fair, since you just put in a little bit of money in small doses and you will get there.
I simply don't get the anger against F2P games. Why can't you just pay 15 dollars per month in the f2p game, just as you pay 15 dollars per month in the sub game.
Sub games have never been fair imo, we as players were never on an even playing field. Those with time, got to end-game the fastest, got the cool loot before it was nerfed, used the exploits before they were fixed, got the raid loot/end-game loot and could sell it before the rest got there. It has always been a winning strategy to get to the new stuff first (at least in all the mmorpgs I have played so far). The players with time to play the most (10+hours per day) simply always win. I thought the sub model was fair, because this was what I was used to, this was how it had always been and because I had time. My thoughts have changed since I began looking at both time and money as things to put into a game.
What makes you think that some won't have both, more time and more money than you to put into the game? All the arguments in favor of money as a way to counterbalance time seem to imply that there are two distinct separate groups when the reality is that those obsessed with being first or best are the same people and they will use money in addition to time if that's available to them.
Beside, time-commitment in order to become better is the honest way to excel... in sports, music, whatever. Cheats and shortcuts of any sort have always been frowned upon.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I have almost no time to play anymore, and I hate F2P/Freemium pay models. I'm OK knowing that I won't be as good as others who play 12 hours a day. You play more you should be more powerful. A level playing field is having everything available in game without having to go to a cash shop to get it, and not being able to gear up from the cash shop to compete with all day gamers. It'll take me longer to get there, but I'll still get there. Viva la Sub-Model!
If we see time and money as two ways of investing into a game, then it sounds as if you don't think it is fair that those that have money can get an advantage, but those that have time can get an advantage is fair?
I mean, you claim sub model is fair and a level playing field, because all you invest is time and you will get there someday. But I could argue that a F2P model is just as fair, since you just put in a little bit of money in small doses and you will get there.
I simply don't get the anger against F2P games. Why can't you just pay 15 dollars per month in the f2p game, just as you pay 15 dollars per month in the sub game.
Sub games have never been fair imo, we as players were never on an even playing field. Those with time, got to end-game the fastest, got the cool loot before it was nerfed, used the exploits before they were fixed, got the raid loot/end-game loot and could sell it before the rest got there. It has always been a winning strategy to get to the new stuff first (at least in all the mmorpgs I have played so far). The players with time to play the most (10+hours per day) simply always win. I thought the sub model was fair, because this was what I was used to, this was how it had always been and because I had time. My thoughts have changed since I began looking at both time and money as things to put into a game.
What makes you think that some won't have both, more time and more money than you to put into the game? All the arguments in favor of money as a way to counterbalance time seem to imply that there are two distinct separate groups when the reality is that those obsessed with being first or best are the same people and they will use money in addition to time if that's available to them.
Beside, time-commitment in order to become better is the honest way to excel... in sports, music, whatever. Cheats and shortcuts of any sort have always been frowned upon.
I think the sub model is fair. Everyone gets exactly the the same thing for their money. 30 days. Do with it, what you will.
Pay to get best gear + open world PvP = dead game soon, here in the west. It works in Asia, but not here. Daum/Kakao/Pearl Abyss are going to learn this the hard way.
...like EVE Online, right?
Problem of open world PVP games is not cash shop, it is open world PVP.
There is a MASSIVE difference between EVE and Black Desert. In EVE you lose everything on death, so trying to P2W on that is quite a bit more risky and difficult. Not to mention EVE is mainly group based and quite skill based when it comes down to it so you could easily spend $1,000 in one day and lose it all the very same day.
Black Desert doesn't have that risk, the power you buy is the power you get to keep.
LacedOpium said: If you do not have the time to "invest" in a game in order to be competitive, then the common sense solution to that dilemma is to not play the game.
You know, it swings both ways.
If you do not have the money to "invest" in a game in order to be competitive, then the common sense solution to that dilemma is to not play the game.
Any competitive sport or endeavor does require money investment and games are no different.
Yeah, because League of Legends and DOTA2 totally require money to be competitive.
Christ on a pogo stick. Its sad enough that the only innovation made in MMOs the past several years seems to be the way they're monetized, but when it has come to the point where most of a narrative about these games is also only about their monetization, not their features, not their fun factor, I can't help but feel the genre and its fans are truly and deeply fucked.
The whole fucking industry reminds me of Robert Asprin's The Cold Cash War.
You act like it's every player acting like a child over this. It's not. It's the same people who like to make noise over everything. Most players are out there playing their games, sans le forum bitching.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Bruhza said:
There is a MASSIVE difference between EVE and Black Desert. In EVE you lose everything on death, so trying to P2W on that is quite a bit more risky and difficult. Not to mention EVE is mainly group based and quite skill based when it comes down to it so you could easily spend $1,000 in one day and lose it all the very same day.
Black Desert doesn't have that risk, the power you buy is the power you get to keep.
Don't compare apples and oranges.
You still have an "advantage", don't you?
Same thing principle, just different game.
Bruhza said:
Yeah, because League of Legends and DOTA2 totally require money to be competitive.
On top level, sure they do require money.
Heck, even a computer is an investment just like bike, shoes, ski or w/e equipment and those do make a difference. Those are "P2W" too?
There is nothing like "P2W". People spend money on their hobbies, on their sports, on things they like....they spend money to be better. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Game will go with players who still want to play and enjoy the game.
Every few weeks you will see some forum thread here about the death of BDO by some bitter player and then the people usually respond with their one liners will declare it is so and one year later it will still be chugging along.
I think people fail to realise that many things this game offers are not readily available like its trading,farming and other systems that those who play and are not interested in the PvP can still enjoy.
I cannot see into the future. I mean people predicted the death of SWTOR over and over and yet it is still making EA money so if this game has enough players who make Daum money it will still continue.
Reports of the game quick demise is all but an exaggeration.
Bruhza said:
There is a MASSIVE difference between EVE and Black Desert. In EVE you lose everything on death, so trying to P2W on that is quite a bit more risky and difficult. Not to mention EVE is mainly group based and quite skill based when it comes down to it so you could easily spend $1,000 in one day and lose it all the very same day.
Black Desert doesn't have that risk, the power you buy is the power you get to keep.
Don't compare apples and oranges.
You still have an "advantage", don't you?
Same thing principle, just different game.
The only advantage you would have is that you don't have to do any work for your isk, you don't have any tactical advantage
Bruhza said:
Yeah, because League of Legends and DOTA2 totally require money to be competitive.
On top level, sure they do require money.
Heck, even a computer is an investment just like bike, shoes, ski or w/e equipment and those do make a difference. Those are "P2W" too?
There is nothing like "P2W". People spend money on their hobbies, on their sports, on things they like....they spend money to be better. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Comparing BDO and Eve is probably not a good example, the genres are different, as is how combat is resolved and the factors affecting combat, Eve does not have +18 weapons etc. It is not a level based game, if you were going to compare BDO to any game, it would have to be Archeage, and we all know by now just how badly Archeage failed.
Comparing BDO and Eve is probably not a good example, the genres are different, as is how combat is resolved and the factors affecting combat, Eve does not have +18 weapons etc. It is not a level based game, if you were going to compare BDO to any game, it would have to be Archeage, and we all know by now just how badly Archeage failed.
They compare it to EVE because they drank the CCP koolaid a long time ago and their rationalizations have led them to become evangelical about the goodness of gold buying and selling.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Phry said: Comparing BDO and Eve is probably not a good example, the genres are different, as is how combat is resolved and the factors affecting combat, Eve does not have +18 weapons etc. It is not a level based game
Sure, games are different, option to avoid ingame grind with RL money is not - and that is all that matters, everything else is irrelevant.
Phry said: The only advantage you would have is that you don't have to do any work for your isk, you don't have any tactical advantage
Phry said: Comparing BDO and Eve is probably not a good example, the genres are different, as is how combat is resolved and the factors affecting combat, Eve does not have +18 weapons etc. It is not a level based game
Sure, games are different, option to avoid ingame grind with RL money is not - and that is all that matters, everything else is irrelevant.
Phry said: The only advantage you would have is that you don't have to do any work for your isk, you don't have any tactical advantage
Just like in BDO...
See, no difference there.
It amazes me how many stupid things one person can post in such a short amount of time. One would think you're simply trying to talk yourself into believing that BDO isn't going P2W just so you can rationalize still playing it. Every post you make is hostile and you spam "LoL's" at random people for disagreeing with you in the slightest. If you had some real solid examples other then "Lel, ur just dumb" as 99% of your arguments, then maybe some people will take you serious.
It will be interesting to come back to this thread in a few months and see just how these "options" have benefited and the overall gaming experience for the player base as a whole.
And how would you measure if it benefited the playerbase as a whole?
Just as they dictate Arcehage is a failure and nobody plays it and is dead?
That's pure speculation. We don't know how many people left Archeage due to their "p2w" scheme. People could've just left the game out of boredom or because of various other reasons.
If the past is any indication, players leave an MMO in droves after the first couple months, regardless of it's payment model.
Comparing BDO and Eve is probably not a good example, the genres are different, as is how combat is resolved and the factors affecting combat, Eve does not have +18 weapons etc. It is not a level based game, if you were going to compare BDO to any game, it would have to be Archeage, and we all know by now just how badly Archeage failed.
They compare it to EVE because they drank the CCP koolaid a long time ago and their rationalizations have led them to become evangelical about the goodness of gold buying and selling.
Oh, and don't even think you can point out the down side of EVE's RMT, like the fact that the economy and the game's entire meta is based around multi-boxing. And players needing multiple accounts just to wipe your ass in the game.
PLEX is where you pay money for someone else to have even more accounts than any one person could afford on their own. The player who buys PLEX actually funds another player to have an advantage over them. Of course it's not P2W. It's pay to EFFIN lose and people buy this shit?
GeezerGamer said: PLEX is where you pay money for someone else to have even more accounts than any one person could afford on their own. The player who buys PLEX actually funds another player to have an advantage over them. Of course it's not P2W. It's pay to EFFIN lose and people buy this shit?
GeezerGamer said: PLEX is where you pay money for someone else to have even more accounts than any one person could afford on their own. The player who buys PLEX actually funds another player to have an advantage over them. Of course it's not P2W. It's pay to EFFIN lose and people buy this shit?
It's brilliant if you ask me.
Same with BDO.
"P2W" is now "P2L", it is official.
I suppose I could use the money from trading to purchase multiple accounts and multibox to farm more materials to buy more accounts to use to farm more materials to use to buy more accounts....
Or, no, maybe that's not how BDO's meta works.......I guess maybe it's not the same after all.
GeezerGamer said: I suppose I could use the money from trading to purchase multiple accounts and multibox to farm more materials to buy more accounts to use to farm more materials to use to buy more accounts....
Or, no, maybe that's not how BDO's meta works.......I guess maybe it's not the same after all.
Not accounts but other cash shop items - treant suit, pets, etc.
Same principle - the ones with RL money giving more "power" to those that are already wealthy ingame.
GeezerGamer said: I suppose I could use the money from trading to purchase multiple accounts and multibox to farm more materials to buy more accounts to use to farm more materials to use to buy more accounts....
Or, no, maybe that's not how BDO's meta works.......I guess maybe it's not the same after all.
Not accounts but other cash shop items - treant suit, pets, etc.
Same principle - the ones with RL money giving more "power" to those that are already wealthy ingame.
I will agree to this but more for EVE than other games, I'll explain why I think that. The major difference between EVE and every other game that uses similar monetization is in multi-boxing. No other game has been able to achieve what CCP did in EVE in creating the desire to use multiple accounts per active player. EVE had a solid 5 years to establish it's economy and inherent item values and player's power-base before PLEX was introduced. So players had already had 5 years of established resourse control and amassing. PLEX served to facilitate that even further. EVE's true advantage to be had is in the form of multiple accounts, not ISK. That's because multiple accounts can produce more ISK than buying PLEX. (For any given RMT/ISK conversion amount) When another game comes along and instills the player's desire to obtain more and more accounts, then we will have an EVE like economy / RMT system.
GeezerGamer said: I will agree to this but more for EVE than other games, I'll explain why I think that. The major difference between EVE and every other game that uses similar monetization is in multi-boxing. No other game has been able to achieve what CCP did in EVE in creating the desire to use multiple accounts per active player. EVE had a solid 5 years to establish it's economy and inherent item values and player's power-base before PLEX was introduced. So players had already had 5 years of established resourse control and amassing. PLEX served to facilitate that even further. EVE's true advantage to be had is in the form of multiple accounts, not ISK. That's because multiple accounts can produce more ISK than buying PLEX. (For any given RMT/ISK conversion amount) When another game comes along and instills the player's desire to obtain more and more accounts, then we will have an EVE like economy / RMT system.
I don't believe BDO is going to achieve this.
Irrelevant.
Power is power, it does not matter where it comes from - gear, accounts or w/e.
If you think EVE is somehow special in regards to multiboxing, I guess you never played WoW :-)
GeezerGamer said: I will agree to this but more for EVE than other games, I'll explain why I think that. The major difference between EVE and every other game that uses similar monetization is in multi-boxing. No other game has been able to achieve what CCP did in EVE in creating the desire to use multiple accounts per active player. EVE had a solid 5 years to establish it's economy and inherent item values and player's power-base before PLEX was introduced. So players had already had 5 years of established resourse control and amassing. PLEX served to facilitate that even further. EVE's true advantage to be had is in the form of multiple accounts, not ISK. That's because multiple accounts can produce more ISK than buying PLEX. (For any given RMT/ISK conversion amount) When another game comes along and instills the player's desire to obtain more and more accounts, then we will have an EVE like economy / RMT system.
I don't believe BDO is going to achieve this.
Irrelevant.
Power is power, it does not matter where it comes from - gear, accounts or w/e.
If you think EVE is somehow special in regards to multiboxing, I guess you never played WoW :-)
As I said in the other thread, Let's just disagree from here, and call it a day. We aren't ever going to get anywhere with each other and I guarantee you, no one else is reading our arguments anymore.
Place item on auction house, gold seller buys it for currency...
Although its still a legit transaction but as long as they refund the costume if removing any gold unlike Arche Age and trion screwing over so many people over and over.
Comments
I mean, you claim sub model is fair and a level playing field, because all you invest is time and you will get there someday. But I could argue that a F2P model is just as fair, since you just put in a little bit of money in small doses and you will get there.
I simply don't get the anger against F2P games. Why can't you just pay 15 dollars per month in the f2p game, just as you pay 15 dollars per month in the sub game.
Sub games have never been fair imo, we as players were never on an even playing field. Those with time, got to end-game the fastest, got the cool loot before it was nerfed, used the exploits before they were fixed, got the raid loot/end-game loot and could sell it before the rest got there. It has always been a winning strategy to get to the new stuff first (at least in all the mmorpgs I have played so far). The players with time to play the most (10+hours per day) simply always win.
I thought the sub model was fair, because this was what I was used to, this was how it had always been and because I had time.
My thoughts have changed since I began looking at both time and money as things to put into a game.
Beside, time-commitment in order to become better is the honest way to excel... in sports, music, whatever. Cheats and shortcuts of any sort have always been frowned upon.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There is a MASSIVE difference between EVE and Black Desert. In EVE you lose everything on death, so trying to P2W on that is quite a bit more risky and difficult. Not to mention EVE is mainly group based and quite skill based when it comes down to it so you could easily spend $1,000 in one day and lose it all the very same day.
Black Desert doesn't have that risk, the power you buy is the power you get to keep.
Don't compare apples and oranges.
Yeah, because League of Legends and DOTA2 totally require money to be competitive.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Heck, even a computer is an investment just like bike, shoes, ski or w/e equipment and those do make a difference. Those are "P2W" too?
There is nothing like "P2W". People spend money on their hobbies, on their sports, on things they like....they spend money to be better. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Every few weeks you will see some forum thread here about the death of BDO by some bitter player and then the people usually respond with their one liners will declare it is so and one year later it will still be chugging along.
I think people fail to realise that many things this game offers are not readily available like its trading,farming and other systems that those who play and are not interested in the PvP can still enjoy.
I cannot see into the future. I mean people predicted the death of SWTOR over and over and yet it is still making EA money so if this game has enough players who make Daum money it will still continue.
Reports of the game quick demise is all but an exaggeration.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Just like in BDO...
See, no difference there.
As for right now though, it's pathetic really.
If the past is any indication, players leave an MMO in droves after the first couple months, regardless of it's payment model.
PLEX is where you pay money for someone else to have even more accounts than any one person could afford on their own. The player who buys PLEX actually funds another player to have an advantage over them. Of course it's not P2W. It's pay to EFFIN lose and people buy this shit?
It's brilliant if you ask me.
"P2W" is now "P2L", it is official.
Or, no, maybe that's not how BDO's meta works.......I guess maybe it's not the same after all.
Same principle - the ones with RL money giving more "power" to those that are already wealthy ingame.
I don't believe BDO is going to achieve this.
Power is power, it does not matter where it comes from - gear, accounts or w/e.
If you think EVE is somehow special in regards to multiboxing, I guess you never played WoW :-)
Although its still a legit transaction but as long as they refund the costume if removing any gold unlike Arche Age and trion screwing over so many people over and over.