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Black Desert gone HARD p2w! (Cash shop Items, available at Market Place next week)

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Comments

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,899
    Torval said:
    Nilden said:
    Torval said:
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Keller said:
    DMKano said:
    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.

    What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.

    It's pay to advance faster.

    It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.

    So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.

    Those with a crapton of time can get there. 

    Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.

    The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.


    Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many. 

    Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level.  Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W.  Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.


    So you are talking about player skill playing a part.

    Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:


    1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't
    2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much
    3. Player skill  - yeah self explanatory
    4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....


    Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will

    But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?

    Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.

    So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...

    Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?

    How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd. 

    It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
    Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?

    What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?

    How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn  rewards instead of just buying them...

    Come now - apples and oranges - Monopoly would be totally ruined as the game is NOT a MMO and has a very clear "win" condition.

    On the other hand BDO being a MMO keeps its integrity in check because:

    1. Players who want to spend a lot of time grinding, and playing can do so and get all the end game items - it will take a LONG time

    2. Players who want to spend money and fast track to end game - can do so as well


    Both are on equal footing eventually as equal gear is constantly available to both players - so they are on equal footing in the end.

    Some like the grind - some don't - cash being given as an option to circumvent the grind is a blessing for many, it's just another avenue that leads to the same end game gear.
    It ruins the game just the same for me. Selling in-game currency is the same thing when it comes to killing the game, I don't care about a win condition it's the advantage being sold that makes it P2W.

    Your example missed a whole third party:

    1 time
    2 money
    3 time and money

    1 and 2 will never touch 3
    Is 3 a significant factor? Is it even a measurable factor? How many people have all the free time and a ton of money.
    Enough that I wouldn't just leave it out completely.
    Well, how do you know? How do you know that it is a measurable factor?
    I didn't say anything about a measurable factor or how many of anything, just that they exist. There are obviously people with time and money. Probably most whales. If you want to see how measurable a factor it is I would start by looking at the average whales playtime. It's not going to be a majority by any means.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited August 2016
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:


    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    Of course there's a problem to be seen there.

    While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case.  And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games.  The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning  by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others.  That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you. What is the point in that?  

    Money should not factor into this equation.  The only qualities that should factor into a gaming equation are the inherent skills and abilities that you possess and perform to accomplish your goals of winning, not those inherent skills and abilities possessed by others that you "bought" by acquiring items that they accomplished.  That is the very definition of "paying" to win.  

    You are in essence "hiring" someone to help "win" the game for you.  
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,193
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:


    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    Of course there's a problem to be seen there.

    While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case.  And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games.  The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning  by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others.  That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you.  What is the point in that?  There is none.

    In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?

    Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer,  ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......

    See what I am getting at?

    BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.

    So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,989
    edited August 2016
    It's funny people are complaining about this like it will destroy the game when in fact it will bring in more people. It's really no different than what has kept GW2 afloat a this time and I expect mass amounts of new items to be added every patch now This should have been like this from day one tbh, but better  late than never.


    Oh and this is not pay to win if you compare it to some of the other cash shop games out there.So many drama queens lol


  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited August 2016
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:


    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    Of course there's a problem to be seen there.

    While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case.  And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games.  The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning  by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others.  That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you.  What is the point in that?  There is none.

    In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?

    Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer,  ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......

    See what I am getting at?

    BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.

    So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition

    Well now you're just getting philosophical.  Winning may indeed have a different meaning to different people but that's not what we're talking about here.  In the context of BDO, or any MMO for that matter, the definition of winning can be narrowly construed as being competitively the best.  And being competitively the best in a game like BDO would be defined as achieving the upper hand on your opponent through levels, gear, or in game silver that gives you purchasing power to get the upper hand on any, or all, of the aforementioned. You, being a competitive PvP-centric player, know this, or at least should know this, better than most.
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,899
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:


    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    Of course there's a problem to be seen there.

    While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case.  And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games.  The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning  by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others.  That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you.  What is the point in that?  There is none.

    In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?

    Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer,  ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......

    See what I am getting at?

    BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.

    So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition
    It doesn't matter if you win.

    The guy paying for monopoly money could lose. He still payed for monopoly money with real cash. That's the P2W part. Paying for an in game advantage with real money is P2W.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,193
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:


    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    Of course there's a problem to be seen there.

    While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case.  And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games.  The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning  by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others.  That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you.  What is the point in that?  There is none.

    In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?

    Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer,  ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......

    See what I am getting at?

    BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.

    So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition

    Well now you're just getting philosophical.  Winning may indeed have a different meaning to different people but that's not what we're talking about here.  In the context of BDO, or any MMO for that matter, the definition of winning can be narrowly construed as being competitively the best.  And being competitively the best in a game like BDO would be defined as achieving the upper hand on your opponent through levels, gear, or in game silver that gives you purchasing power to get the upper hand on any, or all, of the aforementioned. You, being a competitive PvP-centric player, know this, or at least should know this, better than most.


    I am out geared in every PvP game - and that's fine.

    The real issue in BDO is you gain the highest upper hand via gear. If a +20 player had a marginal advantage over a +16 player - nobody would care about "p2w" right? Because a lower geared player would still be able to easily beat a +20

    So you see the root of the problem is the extreme gear disparity. 

    If a +10 could beat a +15 or +16 a +20, this entire p2w fiasco wouldnt even exist as nobody would care.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,193
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:


    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    Of course there's a problem to be seen there.

    While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case.  And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games.  The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning  by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others.  That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you.  What is the point in that?  There is none.

    In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?

    Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer,  ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......

    See what I am getting at?

    BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.

    So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition
    It doesn't matter if you win.

    The guy paying for monopoly money could lose. He still payed for monopoly money with real cash. That's the P2W part. Paying for an in game advantage with real money is P2W.


    That is where we have different opinions.

    Pay for advantage exists in almost any online game (via 3rd party or cash shop).

    Pay to win and pay for advantage are 2 different concepts to me, they are not to you.

    Different opinions 
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,899
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:


    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    Of course there's a problem to be seen there.

    While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case.  And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games.  The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning  by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others.  That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you.  What is the point in that?  There is none.

    In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?

    Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer,  ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......

    See what I am getting at?

    BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.

    So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition

    Well now you're just getting philosophical.  Winning may indeed have a different meaning to different people but that's not what we're talking about here.  In the context of BDO, or any MMO for that matter, the definition of winning can be narrowly construed as being competitively the best.  And being competitively the best in a game like BDO would be defined as achieving the upper hand on your opponent through levels, gear, or in game silver that gives you purchasing power to get the upper hand on any, or all, of the aforementioned. You, being a competitive PvP-centric player, know this, or at least should know this, better than most.


    I am out geared in every PvP game - and that's fine.

    The real issue in BDO is you gain the highest upper hand via gear. If a +20 player had a marginal advantage over a +16 player - nobody would care about "p2w" right? Because a lower geared player would still be able to easily beat a +20

    So you see the root of the problem is the extreme gear disparity. 

    If a +10 could beat a +15 or +16 a +20, this entire p2w fiasco wouldnt even exist as nobody would care.
    That's because P2W is paying for an advantage. The severity of the advantage dictates the severity of the P2W, along with price obviously.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,193
    edited August 2016
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:


    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    Of course there's a problem to be seen there.

    While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case.  And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games.  The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning  by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others.  That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you.  What is the point in that?  There is none.

    In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?

    Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer,  ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......

    See what I am getting at?

    BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.

    So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition

    Well now you're just getting philosophical.  Winning may indeed have a different meaning to different people but that's not what we're talking about here.  In the context of BDO, or any MMO for that matter, the definition of winning can be narrowly construed as being competitively the best.  And being competitively the best in a game like BDO would be defined as achieving the upper hand on your opponent through levels, gear, or in game silver that gives you purchasing power to get the upper hand on any, or all, of the aforementioned. You, being a competitive PvP-centric player, know this, or at least should know this, better than most.


    I am out geared in every PvP game - and that's fine.

    The real issue in BDO is you gain the highest upper hand via gear. If a +20 player had a marginal advantage over a +16 player - nobody would care about "p2w" right? Because a lower geared player would still be able to easily beat a +20

    So you see the root of the problem is the extreme gear disparity. 

    If a +10 could beat a +15 or +16 a +20, this entire p2w fiasco wouldnt even exist as nobody would care.
    That's because P2W is paying for an advantage. The severity of the advantage dictates the severity of the P2W, along with price obviously.

    So pay for advantage is directly tied to an imbalanced gear system. 

    Daum/kakao could fix the issue by marginalizing enhancment disparity. 

    So the pay for for advantage could be almost entirely removed via a gear balance patch.
  • LleithLleith Member UncommonPosts: 126
    God damn it.
    Aren't you this website's official, grade-A, no-holds-barred Daum cheerleader? C'mon! Where's that BDO spirit? There's got to be a silver lining to this somewhere! I mean, according to you, every other boneheaded decision they've made was actually brilliant. This one must be, too!
  • p89989p89989 Member UncommonPosts: 10
    Lleith said:
    God damn it.
    Aren't you this website's official, grade-A, no-holds-barred Daum cheerleader? C'mon! Where's that BDO spirit? There's got to be a silver lining to this somewhere! I mean, according to you, every other boneheaded decision they've made was actually brilliant. This one must be, too!
    i think they reached their limit at being a shill for Daum, this one was probably the tipping point for them
  • LleithLleith Member UncommonPosts: 126
    edited August 2016
    p89989 said:
    Lleith said:
    God damn it.
    Aren't you this website's official, grade-A, no-holds-barred Daum cheerleader? C'mon! Where's that BDO spirit? There's got to be a silver lining to this somewhere! I mean, according to you, every other boneheaded decision they've made was actually brilliant. This one must be, too!
    i think they reached their limit at being a shill for Daum, this one was probably the tipping point for them
    Oh well. I just initiated my chargeback (thank goodness I purchased through Paypal). Originally, I was just going to let the fact that I don't play much sit pat - I put my time in, discovered it wasn't that great a game, and was out the $50. You win some and you lose some.

    This, however, changes things - now it's become a bait-and-switch situation. So a chargeback it is. Will I succeed? Who knows? But it doesn't hurt to try.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,438
    @DMKano how is that a fallacy? Which fallacy did I commit?
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • Arcane4176Arcane4176 Member UncommonPosts: 61
    Well quit playing these free 2 play games and maybe they will quit releasing free to play games. This crap never started until the gamers became cheap. I don't feel sorry for yall you brought it and keep bringing it upon yourself.. Nothing new here and more games coming this way that will be using the same damn model. So keep jumping ship onto the next one that's free 2 play then the next and next and next.. You never learn.
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,899
    Well quit playing these free 2 play games and maybe they will quit releasing free to play games. This crap never started until the gamers became cheap. I don't feel sorry for yall you brought it and keep bringing it upon yourself.. Nothing new here and more games coming this way that will be using the same damn model. So keep jumping ship onto the next one that's free 2 play then the next and next and next.. You never learn.
    It's not F2P yet, still costs $30 bucks.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • LleithLleith Member UncommonPosts: 126
    It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in Daum corporate HQ tomorrow morning when the millions of chargeback requests flood into their financial department. I wonder how that's going to go over?
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,048
    edited August 2016
    Quizzical said:
    I asked a question some pages ago and didn't see an answer.  I still want an answer.  Anyway, my question is:

    Does this materially affect anything outside of the endgame?  If you want to argue that there is no endgame, then does it materially affect anything outside of high level gameplay?
    Well, it kinda affects the whole game's economy when you can get game currency for real money. One important thing though: this "feature" does NOT inject silver into the game. The silver used has to be gained first in game through the regular ways. All it does is allow transfer of that silver from one player to another.

    I don't see it affecting the game much before level 45, or actually even 50. The most affected part will be the end game PvP obviously, sieges and guild wars.

    I thought about it a bit, and I realized that my play style won't be affected much, if at all. I see why people like @holdenhamlet can be really pissed about that change, but his focus is that end game PvP that will be affected the most.

    I personally will most likely keep on playing the game just like I'm doing now. But one thing is 100% sure. If the change goes live, Daum/Kakao will never get a single cent of real money from me. I will just enjoy the game's mechanics which I still love (nodes/housing/crafting/PvE/exploring/immersion) without supporting the game. Basically, I'll leech. That's called voting with your wallet, not the first time I've done that. And I will enjoy getting all that silver from the whales who will buy my crafted items.
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  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member RarePosts: 4,126
    Also this is not the first time one could have amassed a lot of money in BDO.

    Remember the event that made black stones drop like crazy? I know many that farmed for an absurd amount of hours per day for the whole event (That was extended to 2 weeks I believe) then waited until the event ended.

  • axtrantiaxtranti Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Glad I sold my account a week after media release $$$$$$

    asdasdasd

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,541
    I don't think people understand the difference between spending hours in a game grinding for the gear they earn versus just forking over some money and buying it. Sure, not everyone has time to play games, but allowing people to buy the best gear in the game with their wallet is just a really shitty thing to do to players that can't afford to do that. As for people saying there is no WIN aspect to MMO's, then let's just call it P2B#1 and in PvP, being #1 is kind of the point of the game.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    edited August 2016
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:


    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    Of course there's a problem to be seen there.

    While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case.  And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games.  The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning  by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others.  That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you.  What is the point in that?  There is none.

    In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?

    Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer,  ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......

    See what I am getting at?

    BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.

    So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition

    Well now you're just getting philosophical.  Winning may indeed have a different meaning to different people but that's not what we're talking about here.  In the context of BDO, or any MMO for that matter, the definition of winning can be narrowly construed as being competitively the best.  And being competitively the best in a game like BDO would be defined as achieving the upper hand on your opponent through levels, gear, or in game silver that gives you purchasing power to get the upper hand on any, or all, of the aforementioned. You, being a competitive PvP-centric player, know this, or at least should know this, better than most.


    I am out geared in every PvP game - and that's fine.

    The real issue in BDO is you gain the highest upper hand via gear. If a +20 player had a marginal advantage over a +16 player - nobody would care about "p2w" right? Because a lower geared player would still be able to easily beat a +20

    So you see the root of the problem is the extreme gear disparity. 

    If a +10 could beat a +15 or +16 a +20, this entire p2w fiasco wouldnt even exist as nobody would care.
    Its precisely because a +10 equipped player can't beat someone with even +16 equipment that the whole P2W thing is a huge problem.
    Why should people with more real money than others be allowed to dominate in a game? it doesn't matter whether its in PVE or in PVP, but the fact that BDO has such a large PVP factor in it, from node conquest to guild v guild wars makes it doubly worse.

  • scorpex-xscorpex-x Member RarePosts: 1,030
    This is why p2p games like XIV should not have that massive cash shops they do, it's only a matter of time before they go full p2w as it is in china and sell gold directly.
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    scorpex-x said:
    This is why p2p games like XIV should not have that massive cash shops they do, it's only a matter of time before they go full p2w as it is in china and sell gold directly.
    Sorry, not buying what your selling, say whatever you like about FFXIV but they don't have a massive cash shop, and what is in the cash shop is just a few costumes and minions, you can't buy anything in the cash shop that gives you even a marginal advantage over others, even if you buy a mount in the cash shop, you can't use it until you have unlocked mounts in game, so you don't even get mounts quicker than people who don't buy it in the cash shop.
  • LleithLleith Member UncommonPosts: 126
    edited August 2016
    scorpex-x said:
    This is why p2p games like XIV should not have that massive cash shops they do, it's only a matter of time before they go full p2w as it is in china and sell gold directly.
    Yeah, I think XIV's cash shop is actually pretty pathetic as far as these things go. That's a really bad example to use.
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