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Why we need an independant institute that supervises developers on their way of releasing games

asdfbbqasdfbbq Member UncommonPosts: 27
edited August 2016 in General Gaming
Greetings,

first of all let me share with you briefly that I play video games on and off since their existance and have found interest in MMOs since EQ1. So far I have never ever seen such a detrimental game like Black Desert. This game is the very reason why I have created this topic.

I began to become more and more lucid of my human life since I started meditating a few years ago, this year, the lucidity increased drasticly with what you can call a near-death experience in which the connection of myself and my subconscious to my surroundings was made obvious. And so I was witnessing first hand how I was producing a negative spiral and actually began to spiral into my own dissolution. Which leads to the most uncomfortable sensation that you can ever have in this body, trembling, vomiting and finding no more sense of security in this physical life, basicly shattering the first foundation you have ever made as a young human being here, years back. This hightened my awareness of what we are actually doing here with our modern technology: We are stripping us off of the very ability to design our own lives and give it away to a random sequence, and let it decide of what should be good for us and what not.

Just this particular episode in what correlation this stands would fill a small book, I will leave it like that and explain to you why I came up with this thread in regards to Black Desert Online.

This game, if you are not familiar with, has in it's core principle a grind. Some players even talked about on the official forums it to be a hidden bitcoin-miner, since it is the Only game I have seen so far, that asks you constantly to fill in captchas when you buy items on the auction house or, as advertised, actually promotes you to be afk 24/7, riding your horse on autopilot while it levels up or let workers work for you, who continue to work only if you are logged in and pause when you log off. The leaderboard wants you to compete for the highest crafting ranks and you can only successfully be in the top ranks by actually never going offline.

I personally, even tho playing more than half a day straight, have already a great and.. healthy distance.. to games, and no longer identify myself with an ingame character to the greater extent like I used to do. That basicly wards me from greater health risks through mental dilemma of heavy identification with an alter ego. Thankfully the story is non existant and RPG elements in this game aswell so there is nothing being really creating a virtual identity too strongly.

But why this game is so detrimental is it's core principle of the way it wants you to upgrade items. The way it does it, is that you have to spend your earned resources on upgrade gems, with which you you have to build up a certain amount (called "fail-stacks") in order to increase the chance of actually succeeding a higher-level enchant.

The principle of enchanting itself, of failing to succeed, says everything about this game and twists actually the reality how our lives here work and have always worked out for us, leading us to our wealth. Wealth on all levels. That we of a species found and find more of our own ability and so less and less rely on ever-changing forms and resources. Our very nature of consciousness actually frees us, when realized, of all the wars over perceived seemingly limited resources and shows us ways of use the very atmosphere we live in to discover unlimited and even greater ways of expanding ourselves. And this game? Exactly the opposite in how it wants to shape the minds of the individual human beings delving into it.

The element of a random factor, which you have to spend resources for in order to even utilize and then when not successful, all is lost, creates a detrimental- a negative spiral, in which a dependant relationship is formed and players in this game actually talk about and believe in that THEY have not succeeded when the random sequence tells them, their enchant was not successful. THEY did not even had anything to do with it other than clicking "enchant". This is shockingly both suprising and sad for a moment of perceiving it. Watch streamers on twitch and how they emotionaly react and suffer from it.

And please dont think this happens once a day in this game and is overshadowed by success in other sections, like we know from other games which actually ENCOURAGE you to be the main part of the entire game? No, absolutely not. ALL that you do in this game wants you to gather resources and spend them for this enchanting system. Wether you grind for silver (main currency) and buy items off the marketplace or you grind for items and sell them for silver to buy items, or use the grinded items for upgrades, or craft to gain silver to buy items to upgrade, you ALL do this in hope to upgrade an item to a max rank. And in the very process completely destroy your excitement for said upgrades and you know you can only continue this by shutting off your emotions, because you fail for the great majority of all enchanting attempts.






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Comments

  • asdfbbqasdfbbq Member UncommonPosts: 27
    To get an understanding how the enchangint system works and how much time and effort is needed to succeed:

    A weapon can be upgraded with "gems" to +7 w/o failing and armor to +5 in said manner. +8 to +10 requires around 0-6 fails to build up said "desired" failstacks in order to succeed the enchant. From 11-15 depending on quality of the item (green, blue, yellow) it can vary from 5-25 or even higher than 30 failstacks. For accessoiries it's an entirely different system, because you can only upgrade them via putting the same type of item together. That means you farm 1 of the best rings on the game and can only upgrade it "eventually" when you farm another one and put them together to get a "PRI" version of it. PRI, DUO, TRI, TET, PEN are the ranks for accessoiries that were lately also introduced for weapons and armor above +15.

    Players largely agreed to leave an item at TRI since it requires a great amount of silver (and time) to do so and every attempt to upgrade from PRI and onwards, when failing, actually falls one rank. From TRI to TET it requires absurd +60 failstacks and to get a PEN upgrade insane 120+. The silver and time investment is, and here I find myself not even finding lower-scaling words for it I simply repeat, absurd.

    The game in itself has no real content other than grinding for enchanting your gear. It has no PvE content other than farming worldbosses for gear to upgraded. There is nothing really to do with it.

    You can not even show off your gear because all gear acquired through PvE looks the same. You can buy cash-shop outfits ontop of it. But a lvl 1 can buy them and look the same as a fully decked out lvl .. 60 player.

    Why did I wrote that we need an independant institute that supervises games being on their way from production to release?

    Because this game here is a prime example for it. The hopes you build up to succeed in enchanting in this game will all culminate. And it does it in such a rapid fashion that you can develop a psychological disorder from it. If you are sensitive enough, and I wish you, you are not. You would perceive, playing this game, what I have described as a negative spiral, where you start to make connections of your failure in a synchronistic behaviour to your surroundings and will eventually mentally and emotionally crash.

    Reason for this is mainly also because, including myself, I have found many players actually continue to play this game over night and completely wrecking their sleeping routine. Which would neutralize, repair all of this in a natural fashion, but can not and so it continues to build up.

    I myself have played games during the night before this and enjoyed it. In many different ways. But never was it so incredibly detrimental as in Black Desert.

    I want health specialists who care for gamers as equally worthy human beings as all others. Which we all are, it does not need mentioning, but in regards to the great niche, internet still is, in the case of supervision - a health guideline, which we have in our lives that is called Pain and Wellbeing. This is getting COMPLETELY out of the window with games like this and contributes to Great desensitisation of this whole organism. And that is THE LEAST that I want for myself and you also. Because that makes me a human being, to feel and relate to my environment and to know and to discern what is right and wrong to keep a trusty nagivation for my evolutionary ladder.

    There will never be any machine that will be over it's creator. It can not. It is an unchangable law. Whatever this recent fascination with machines in general is, it will lead you to a great realization, I can not give you here in words and in advance. It will be so obvious that you simply know, when it's arriving.

    Maybe this game is already part of it, maybe this article is also. I know, you know.

    In anyway I allow myself to take this opportunity and actually forward my experience with this game to whatever institute I find that already exists. If you are still playing this game, feel similar and find it important to do the same, I encourage you to take the step. Because this is how change is created in this world. And even if you heard it multiple times but maybe never experienced it yet yourself directly before: Every one matters. This is simply the case because we change both individually and also collectively and by being active, like in this way, you actually change the entire content we have in our global consciousness, for the better.

    The best change you can always give someone is to encourage him or her to change themselves and find answers for themselves that work for them, so everyone can find his/her own reconnection again and relies less and less on a group- or collective mentality, that has been abused way too often in the past. In this case: You would encourage someone to find his and her own excitement again and lead them away from numbing this very ability, this sense, by repeating actions they do not want. Which will ultimately lead to the forgetting of what is actually exciting. Which will lead into stiffness and a very detrimental slave-like mentality, instead of encouraging each and everyone to realise their creative nature in being the author of ones own life. Which we all are!

    All the best. Be mindful.


  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    You should start a blog. Then you are going to post your theory posts you can put in your blog instead.  I know I would read you blog.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 733
    TL;DR: I want other people to tell people how to have fun based on my personal opinion on what is fun. . .



    . . .no thanks.
  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    I enjoyed reading that. :)
    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • GruntyGrunty Member EpicPosts: 8,644
    edited August 2016
    Yup, independent thought and imagination should be institutionalized because that's what meditation is all about. Independent thought,  imagination and freeing one's spirit.
    "I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone.  It's not.  The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone."  Robin Williams
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 5,685
    edited August 2016
    An independent institute to monitor oddball health theories and prevent them from turning into religions would be much more beneficial.
     
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,146
    asdfbbq said:
    I began to become more and more lucid of my human life since I started meditating a few years ago, this year, the lucidity increased drasticly with what you can call a near-death experience in which the connection of myself and my subconscious to my surroundings was made obvious. And so I was witnessing first hand how I was producing a negative spiral and actually began to spiral into my own dissolution. Which leads to the most uncomfortable sensation that you can ever have in this body, trembling, vomiting and finding no more sense of security in this physical life, basicly shattering the first foundation you have ever made as a young human being here, years back. This hightened my awareness of what we are actually doing here with our modern technology: We are stripping us off of the very ability to design our own lives and give it away to a random sequence, and let it decide of what should be good for us and what not.
    Ok, so I read both your posts and I agree (in principle) that gaming companies should be more ethical when it comes to game design, especially when they deliberately create addictive gaming patterns, lean heavily on gambling or encourage you to never log off. That being said, I'm also a great believer in artistic freedom and self control. These sorts of things are almost modern darwinism in action - fucking with the weak willed thus reducing their chances of a good life and therefore reducing their chances of reproduction. 


    That being said, the quoted paragraph.....what......the......fuck!


    I've spent a lot of time with hippies, alternative medicine types, meditators etc so I've been around the lingo a lot, but that paragraph is just, well, I don't think I even understand it. Granted, I look down on hippies, have no respect for them or their alternative lifestyles. I'm all for living your own life and trying to be a good person, but the politics and alternative agendas are usually complete crap. 


    Now, I think you are saying that you had a near death experience, the shock of it made you sick and it made you re-evaluate your life, specifically how you use technology and you didn't like what you found. 

    But I can't be sure, because you've included so much non-sensical hippy crap. 


    Also, "we are stripping us off of the very ability to design our own lives"....um, nope. Playing an MMO is not stripping you of the ability to design your own life. Its your choice to play or not. Its your choice when to log on or not. Its your choice to chase those gear upgrades, rather than going outside for a walk. Don't blame the game for your own choices. 
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,887
    Grunty said:
    Yup, independent thought and imagination should be institutionalized because that's what meditation is all about. Independent thought,  imagination and freeing one's spirit.
    No, you misunderstand !

    The Institution will guide your meditation down the correct paths so that you can reach the officially approved form of enlightenment !

    It's all for your own good, really... :D
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    no...

    if developers want to be managed they can just get a job and there are plenty of places that want to hire developers

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Thread of the year.
  • RadixMalorumRadixMalorum Member UncommonPosts: 143
    I'll just leave this here.




  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 20,648
    edited August 2016
    What I got from the OPs posts is this:

    1. RNG in Black Desert is bad
    2. Game design that encourages 24/7 clients logged into the server is bad
    3. Spending too much time gaming is bad


    I guess he could have summed it up as - game responsibly, put your health as top priority.

    As far as having an institute supervise developers - lol, I guess - because a lot of them are quite nutty ;)


  • GruntyGrunty Member EpicPosts: 8,644
    Grunty said:
    Yup, independent thought and imagination should be institutionalized because that's what meditation is all about. Independent thought,  imagination and freeing one's spirit.
    No, you misunderstand !

    The Institution will guide your meditation down the correct paths so that you can reach the officially approved form of enlightenment !

    It's all for your own good, really... :D
    My father tried that at least once every seven days.  It didn't stick.
    "I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone.  It's not.  The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone."  Robin Williams
  • renstarensta Member UncommonPosts: 601
    Use life to learn about life...  Computer games are for having an escape from reality (life)  fun time......  Some like to just grind and gamble with rng...  Better gamble in a computer game then a casino.  Also: girlfriends come and go, but epic items are soulbound. 

    image


    Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
    Reply
    Add Multi-Quote

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,399
    Dare I say it "get a life" seriously go get a girl. 




  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    The parable of the RNG. 
    "And lo, he spaketh unto he who had gambled his day's barley on a coin toss, thou should practice moderation in all things, especially asian theme park mercantile simulators." 
    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • JaimlJaiml Member UncommonPosts: 126
    As soon as I hear "An independent institute that supervises" you get a big NO from me.  Or any other version of "allow others to make the decisions."

    Why do people think that having a small group of other people make all the decisions will make things better?  Have you read these forums?  Not even these forums can agree on what makes a good game.  Now you want a group of other people to decide what kind of games can be made?  By a group of specialist that will decide what the greater good is for us?

    Let me give you a hint...  turn off the computer, eat proper balanced meals, exercise, spend time socializing with people (put down the phone) find a creative hobby, get the proper amount of sleep and spend some of your time helping others.  That will provide a much more balanced life.

    Following your line of reasoning shouldn't we have someone at every place that servers alcohol deciding for you when it is enough?  Let's deal with the smoking thing while we are at it.  Maybe we should have a sleep monitor in every home, we all know that gamers are always running low on sleep.  Some people are sex addicts, maybe we need monitors for that?  Cause you know the one thing we can't have is people being responsible for their actions.  We need others to monitor our lives, then we would all be happy successful people!


  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    My favorite game of the past two years as well as that game being one of my favorites of all time is late and off stated goals and thank god for that because the stated goals where nothing compared to what this outstanding game as turned into.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • JabasJabas Member UncommonPosts: 1,249
    Jaiml said:
    ...
    Why do people think that having a small group of other people make all the decisions will make things better?  ...


    Because Human kind nowadays dont like to think and take decisions, the "modern" society have a few doing that and the rest just follow, its way easier.

    If someone dies in accident playing a mobile game while running, its game fault right? 
  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Jaiml said:
    As soon as I hear "An independent institute that supervises" you get a big NO from me.  Or any other version of "allow others to make the decisions."

    Why do people think that having a small group of other people make all the decisions will make things better?  Have you read these forums?  Not even these forums can agree on what makes a good game.  Now you want a group of other people to decide what kind of games can be made?  By a group of specialist that will decide what the greater good is for us?

    Let me give you a hint...  turn off the computer, eat proper balanced meals, exercise, spend time socializing with people (put down the phone) find a creative hobby, get the proper amount of sleep and spend some of your time helping others.  That will provide a much more balanced life.

    Following your line of reasoning shouldn't we have someone at every place that servers alcohol deciding for you when it is enough?  Let's deal with the smoking thing while we are at it.  Maybe we should have a sleep monitor in every home, we all know that gamers are always running low on sleep.  Some people are sex addicts, maybe we need monitors for that?  Cause you know the one thing we can't have is people being responsible for their actions.  We need others to monitor our lives, then we would all be happy successful people!


    The OP is severely lacking in executive functioning it seems. I need a regulatory body made up of people just like me to exercise the self control I don't feel like using.
    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,035
    edited August 2016
    Okay I take all that back, I just now feel kind of bad for you.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    I don't think that a independent institute is the right way to go, since someone would have to pay for it anyways it wont really be independent. Politicians want you to work as much as possible so if it will be tax funded you will get an agenda. Game companies want to maximize profits so if they pay you will get another agenda.

    To have a company that help game developers making more popular games (for a fee) certainly could work if you get the right people but that isn't what you propose.

    And exactly how much time a person can spend gaming without negative effects varies a lot from person to person, both because our psyche differs and how the rest of our lives are. Clearly is that if your life is just about gaming and most of your important friends are people you don't meet IRL you do have a problem but I fear that most people need to decide for themselves, only in extreme cases should others be involved there.

    Personal freedom is very important after all and I don't want someone else to decide which games I should play or not. And most of us are capable to decide how long time we should spend on a hobby ourselves.

    I do wish there were a legal way to stop the straight of cloning of games though, all gaming genres would be better if we had a bit more diversity. Not so much that features were copyrighted but enough so the games felt a bit different from eachother at least, it is rather common that I feel like I already played a MMO 5 mins in. It would be better if the companies themselves would handle that but clearly that ain't happening.
  • BarrikorBarrikor Member UncommonPosts: 364
    Here's the solution:

    "institute" == free market
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,504
    I recommend a committee to monitor the committee to monitor the developers.  The more outsiders you have fucking with the development process, the better.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    I DONT think we need a governmental body to regulate game design, people need to be responsible for their own lives. I DO think we need something to put more consumer protection into the software (focusing on games) industry.  Game makers currently get away with so much it is just silly.  Compare the rights of the consumer when buying a single player game vs buying a car:

    1. Imagine going into a car dealership and ordering a car with specific features and then after you pay for it, several of those features are removed. 
    2. Imagine you also buy that car and pay the whole thing off but then they tell you that you have no legal right to sell the car to anyone else.
    3. Imagine after buying the car and signing a contract that the dealership can alter that contract and remove anything/everything from it to suit themselves, including the warranty. 


    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

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