This is the sort of power supply that you buy if you want the best of everything and don't mind spending $3000 for a computer to get it. It's not something I'd recommend on a $1000 budget, or even a $1500 budget.
I totally get this. Having had a decent capstone apparently fail on me in under a year. I bought my seasonic for piece of mind. I also got a ups as well, pretty good one. It was a power flicker that caused me issues. For a pc that will last me for a good while still. $50 more wasnt really a issue. Freak incident? Sure. Piece of mind. For the rest of this pc's life. Worth.
blueturtle13 said: Huh? What kind of insult is that? Why?
What insult? I was just pointing out that it does not make sense economically - you pay hefty price tag for mitigating already miniscule chance that your PSU will damage other components.
Maybe if it's just for gaming and web browsing, but if you want additional reliability you pay for it. It shouldn't be much more expensive but it is.
Want ECC? It can be factors more expensive. Want enterprise workstation grade drives? They can be factors more expensive as well. Paying a little more for added reliability in a power supply doesn't show lack of intelligence to me.
If a component fails me at work I can lose hours or days of productivity and that costs a lot of money. If I beat the odds then it makes sense to cheap out. If I don't and could have possibly avoided a costly time sucking problem then it doesn't make sense.
In a top end system an extra $20 - $80 isn't that much. It's not a very expensive component anyway.
This. An extra $50 -$80 for piece of mind is worth it to me. Already spent $1300. What is $50 more for such a critical part.
Torval said: if you want additional reliability you pay for it.
In that case you go for redundancy and service.
Any server got 2x PSU, not 1 unit for the price of two, etc...
Most enterprises that I can think of, if the item is so critical that it requires redundancy, they don't just go out and get the cheapest thing they can and then say "Eh, well, we got 2 of 'em, so the inidividual reliability doesn't really matter any more"
For a critical system that really requires that amount of uptime, spending $180 (or a lot, lot more) on a PSU is a drop in the bucket, even if it's 2 of them.
Again, you chose a poor example that serves contrary to the point you are trying to make.
People who use their computers with a Dac always want the best PSU. Everything affects sound quality. A lot of audiophiles do this. The music is stored on an SSD in the computer. Computer is connected to DAC and then connects to the preamp.You guys/gals would be surprised how every little thing makes a difference.This type of setup is for very high end systems that range from 20,000 to 100,000 and up. I know this wont really apply to gaming, but I wanted to give an example why this PSU is important.
A lot depends on your reliability needs. A single Seasonic Prime Titanium is pretty much top end as consumer power supplies go, but not at all the class of hardware you'd get for really mission critical stuff.
Some depends on what risks you're trying to defend against. Military hardware has to worry about dust, shaking, and severe operating temperatures. Satellites launched far into space have major issues with incoming radiation. There's also the issue that if a $100 million project has a hardware failure 30 million miles from Earth, you can't just send a repair person over to fix it. Sometimes the question isn't whether to have redundant hardware, but how many copies of it you go with.
Ridelynn said: Most enterprises that I can think of
That is your problem. You just think how things work.
There are no "180$ PSU " for servers...my example was spot on.
Actually, there absolutely are PSU's that cost that much for servers, some are less and some are significantly more. I've been working in Corporate Supply Chain for over 15 years, and there has always been a wide pricing range for server PSU's. It just depends on what your requirements are, and what Corporate agreements you have worked out with the specific OEM.
Torval said: Most of my work isn't done on a server.
That explains your answer, same issue as with Ridelynn.
Workstations are completely disposable, the user can just log in to any other workstation and continue his work. Well, unless you are really, really bad admin.
This "phenomenon" does not exist in professional(enterprise) world. There are simply more (cost)effective solutions - redundancy, care packs, roaming profiles, clouds, etc, etc.
People who use their computers with a Dac always want the best PSU. Everything affects sound quality. A lot of audiophiles do this.
No, they don't do this, unless you imply they use onboard sound card...
No offense Gdemami but you have no clue what you are talking about. If you want to pm me I can better educate you instead of airing are differences in the forum.
I've been a big Seasonic fan for years. Even my trusty old Corsair I've had for years is a rebranded Seasonic.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Torval said: I don't quite agree that workstations are disposable. If you're using the term workstation as a reference to some desktop that can be used for Word, Excel, and some similar tasks then yes, a workstation is disposable. I'm using workstation in the more literal sense that is used to describe high end desktops - that sort of middle ground between a normal desktop and a server. Those aren't disposable. Redundancy in those systems is insanely expensive, way more than spending a few extra dollars on higher quality and rated parts.
There are advantages to dumb terminals with centralized resources. There are also downsides to that configuration. I process, move, and manipulate tens and hundreds of gigabytes, sometimes terabytes, of data. I run databases locally along with virtual machines. I need power and speed. Dumb terminals, roaming profiles, redirected resources, and networked storage all work against that for me.
I don't necessarily think my demographic is common, but it is a well populated niche. These sorts of hardware offering work well for our needs.
I understand what you are saying but it does not refute my point.
Why I brought up servers and regular workstations? Scale.
Sure, it does not seem much to spent extra $100 on machine that cost $5000 but that does not make it any more sense economically, just the scale is too small.
ceratop001 said: No offense Gdemami but you have no clue what you are talking about.
Please explain how PSU interferes with digital(optical) output...
But hey, what do I know....
I really didn't want to get into it on this thread but OK.
Most PC's communication works on a system of checks and error
correction. When a packet of data doesn’t pass the check at the receiver, a
new packet of data is requested and sent to replace the original.
A computer that has less power supply noise will make fewer bit read
errors, so the computer will have fewer errors to correct. This frees up
system resources and allows packets of data to be transmitted and
buffered in a more sequential order, which translates to less jitter.
The lower the noise in a computer’s power supply, the more harmonically
coherent, the more liquid, and the more articulate the sound. Dacs are inherently affected by jitter reducing sound quality. Noise on the power supply can get into audio via the feedback. Choosing a PSU with efficiency and the low ripple ratings drastically Improves dynamics, sound stage and black noise. The highs are more extended and detailed. The bass is punchier, and the sound as a whole is much smoother. Most Dacs use asynchronous 24/192 and DSD capable so you would usually use
USB to take advantage of the asynchronous clock syncing to
reduce/remove jitter. The higher end Dacs on the systems I'm referring to would never use an optical cable. Optical cables are primarily used for home theater. Optical (Toslink) is limited to 96kh. Nobody I mean nobdy in the Audiophile world uses this anymore because of the limits it possesses.
Recently I had a Meitner : http://www.meitner.com/ma-1.html hooked up to my current system. I can tell you without a doubt when I switched the PSU on computer which is to the left of my system, it made a huge difference. Here's the deal though, unless you have a really, and I mean really good system you won't be able to hear differences. As you get into the higher end systems everything, and I mean everything affects sound quality.
Do me a favor just pm me this type of conversation is no appropriate for this website.
Well I know before I used to not care so much about the PSU and guess what most pc I had usually, prebuilts or not, had problems after 2 years which almost every time had to do with a PSU crapping out which sometimes had no effect on other components and sometimes causing problems elsewhere.
When I started to know more about PC building due to lots of reading up in different forums I found myself putting more cash in my PSU budget and guess what? No more problems like I use to have, nowadays I tend to upgrade cause pc is struggling, due to software reqs, not because PSU is failing. Last problem I had was my son's PC and guess what... was one of them cheapo PSU that went kaput so I replaced it with a nice seasonic. I will be using that very same PSU when I build my son a new pc.
Imo it makes a whole lot of sense to put a decent budget on the PSU, if your putting a decent budget on the rest of the PC. Dunno but if your going to spend 100+ on a pc case you should be spending at least as much on your PSU.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Torval said: I don't quite agree that workstations are disposable. If you're using the term workstation as a reference to some desktop that can be used for Word, Excel, and some similar tasks then yes, a workstation is disposable. I'm using workstation in the more literal sense that is used to describe high end desktops - that sort of middle ground between a normal desktop and a server. Those aren't disposable. Redundancy in those systems is insanely expensive, way more than spending a few extra dollars on higher quality and rated parts.
There are advantages to dumb terminals with centralized resources. There are also downsides to that configuration. I process, move, and manipulate tens and hundreds of gigabytes, sometimes terabytes, of data. I run databases locally along with virtual machines. I need power and speed. Dumb terminals, roaming profiles, redirected resources, and networked storage all work against that for me.
I don't necessarily think my demographic is common, but it is a well populated niche. These sorts of hardware offering work well for our needs.
I understand what you are saying but it does not refute my point.
Why I brought up servers and regular workstations? Scale.
Sure, it does not seem much to spent extra $100 on machine that cost $5000 but that does not make it any more sense economically, just the scale is too small.
You know, if I go back and re-read your post, you sure don't seem to be saying that at all. In fact, it sure looks like you are saying there are ~no~ cases where an expensive power supply makes sense, and you claim scale has nothing to with it. Including servers and high end workstations that may cost over $5000. Including military grade, or life critical hardware. Including non-accessible equipment. Or anything else I could imagine (or, hey, surprise, maybe actually know) that a >$100 power supply makes absolute sense based on reliability.
It sure seems like your the one who's stuck with only what they know, and that seems to be consumer level hardware. Nothing wrong with that, but there's a whole wide world of stuff beyond that...
It isolates the computer output from the next device in the chain, but it doesn't isolate components internal to the computer (i.e on the sound card).
Hilarious.
Please elaborate what it isolates computer output from if not computer(internal components) generated noise
Do not bother, you can't. What you are saying is nonsense - just mentioning soundcard shows how grossly off you are.
Digital =/= analog
Digital transmission does not pick up noise and distortion like analog circuits. A disturbance does not result in error, the signal isn't misinterpreted.
That is a reason why it is so easy to make error-free digital audio copies unlike analog.
Pretty much all noise(the audible, unwanted sound) is analog noise.
Comments
Any server got 2x PSU, not 1 unit for the price of two, etc...
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
For a critical system that really requires that amount of uptime, spending $180 (or a lot, lot more) on a PSU is a drop in the bucket, even if it's 2 of them.
Again, you chose a poor example that serves contrary to the point you are trying to make.
Some depends on what risks you're trying to defend against. Military hardware has to worry about dust, shaking, and severe operating temperatures. Satellites launched far into space have major issues with incoming radiation. There's also the issue that if a $100 million project has a hardware failure 30 million miles from Earth, you can't just send a repair person over to fix it. Sometimes the question isn't whether to have redundant hardware, but how many copies of it you go with.
There are no "180$ PSU " for servers...my example was spot on.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Workstations are completely disposable, the user can just log in to any other workstation and continue his work. Well, unless you are really, really bad admin.
This "phenomenon" does not exist in professional(enterprise) world. There are simply more (cost)effective solutions - redundancy, care packs, roaming profiles, clouds, etc, etc.
But hey, what do I know....
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Why I brought up servers and regular workstations? Scale.
Sure, it does not seem much to spent extra $100 on machine that cost $5000 but that does not make it any more sense economically, just the scale is too small.
Most PC's communication works on a system of checks and error correction. When a packet of data doesn’t pass the check at the receiver, a new packet of data is requested and sent to replace the original.
A computer that has less power supply noise will make fewer bit read errors, so the computer will have fewer errors to correct. This frees up system resources and allows packets of data to be transmitted and buffered in a more sequential order, which translates to less jitter. The lower the noise in a computer’s power supply, the more harmonically coherent, the more liquid, and the more articulate the sound. Dacs are inherently affected by jitter reducing sound quality. Noise on the power supply can get into audio via the feedback. Choosing a PSU with efficiency and the low ripple ratings drastically Improves dynamics, sound stage and black noise. The highs are more extended and detailed. The bass is punchier, and the sound as a whole is much smoother. Most Dacs use asynchronous 24/192 and DSD capable so you would usually use USB to take advantage of the asynchronous clock syncing to reduce/remove jitter. The higher end Dacs on the systems I'm referring to would never use an optical cable. Optical cables are primarily used for home theater. Optical (Toslink) is limited to 96kh. Nobody I mean nobdy in the Audiophile world uses this anymore because of the limits it possesses.
Here's an example of my current system.: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4909 You can also contact me on this site if have other questions.
Recently I had a Meitner : http://www.meitner.com/ma-1.html hooked up to my current system. I can tell you without a doubt when I switched the PSU on computer which is to the left of my system, it made a huge difference. Here's the deal though, unless you have a really, and I mean really good system you won't be able to hear differences. As you get into the higher end systems everything, and I mean everything affects sound quality.
Do me a favor just pm me this type of conversation is no appropriate for this website.
Thanks.When I started to know more about PC building due to lots of reading up in different forums I found myself putting more cash in my PSU budget and guess what? No more problems like I use to have, nowadays I tend to upgrade cause pc is struggling, due to software reqs, not because PSU is failing. Last problem I had was my son's PC and guess what... was one of them cheapo PSU that went kaput so I replaced it with a nice seasonic. I will be using that very same PSU when I build my son a new pc.
Imo it makes a whole lot of sense to put a decent budget on the PSU, if your putting a decent budget on the rest of the PC. Dunno but if your going to spend 100+ on a pc case you should be spending at least as much on your PSU.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I won't even address the rest of your post, so flawed and wrong it is, that quoted single line speaks volumes.
Also, optical output is limited in the codecs that it can support. Most very high end audio prefer to keep as much analog as possible.
It sure seems like your the one who's stuck with only what they know, and that seems to be consumer level hardware. Nothing wrong with that, but there's a whole wide world of stuff beyond that...
Please elaborate what it isolates computer output from if not computer(internal components) generated noise
Do not bother, you can't. What you are saying is nonsense - just mentioning soundcard shows how grossly off you are.
Digital =/= analog
Digital transmission does not pick up noise and distortion like analog circuits. A disturbance does not result in error, the signal isn't misinterpreted.
That is a reason why it is so easy to make error-free digital audio copies unlike analog.
Pretty much all noise(the audible, unwanted sound) is analog noise.