I just wanted to bring this to a topic because I think its worth talking about.
IselinPosts:
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This is good illustration of the balance problems to come when they make all zones max level with One Tamriel and bolster low level characters up to the zone level... for all zones everywhere. Low level players with less than half of a full ability toolkit on top of being inexperienced with the game will just plain struggle with some routine solo quests.
I did that quest on my CP 200+ (essentially max level +) stamina sorc with my AOE DPS + passive self-heal off my damage done soloing load-out and it was a cakewalk.
Bolstering a low level character to do solo content in high level zones has its issues. Most experienced players will tell you to wait to do Orsinium and the Thieves or DB quests and zones until you're at least level 40+ and have a comfortable solo build that can handle mini bosses + adds easily.
But that's not the way the game is advertised. ZOS is interested in selling the concept of "go anywhere anytime" and holding new players back until they're actually ready for it would go against that concept.
Now imagine when ALL zones are max level this fall and low-level players get bolstered up. New players won't even have the opportunity to go level up and get their skills sorted out in easier zones -- it'll be this way everywhere: you'll be puttering along doing just fine with random mob packs in the open world... and then you'll run into a solo-only instance that will own you repeatedly... fun?
Are you onto something or just on something?
Comments
Not being guaranteed a win is a GOOD thing...
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Will everyone find the content equally difficult (or easy), regardless of "level" or champion points ? Seems a bit dubious to me...
What is the point of progressing if you can do all content at level 1 ? Will players just be playing for the "story" and to explore the world ?
There was this foggy marsh area past Dark Elf Village. In it there were hook horrors that were dangerous but at a corresponding level to the players.
However, there were these haunted tree things that were much higher, took a party to take out. If you were leveling there and not paying attention (as the area was really foggy) you might hear the "thump, thump, thump" of the thing comign up behind you and then you were screwed.
In the Sea of spores there was a raid boss called "Orfen" that had a huge aggro radius. As long as you were careful you could level there no problem. But if you weren't paying attention Orfen would come for you.
So having an instance "own me"? that IS fun. I want to be able to figure out a way to beat it. It might take several tries, I might have to level a bit that that's what I WANT from an mmo.
In skyrim, at the start of a game I would come across a Dragon Priest. Extremely hard fight at lower levels but I absolutely loved it, especially the first time I saw one rise out of its sarcophagus only to have it waste me.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Without level scaling, it's harder to foster player freedom because you don't know exactly how they've played your game, and so you can end up giving players inconsistent experiences and force them to experience your 'sandbox' in a more directed fashion out of necessity. Maybe I want to go here or end up here organically through my travels and the mudcrabs in this area are now arbitrarily too hard or too easy. Or if you play long enough you end up being stronger than anything the game developers anticipated and everything except for maybe one zone is too easy. Scaling helps keep the experience consistent while still affording developers the ability to tailor the individual creatures so that they are only challenging to a point in a player's progression while ensuring other creatures are always as challenging as they should be.
If the world around you and the threats you face are meant to forever keep pace with you, then I don't see the point of having leveling at all. Just remove leveling and be done with it, no more need for the illusion of "bolster" or worrying about whether the monster scaling is tuned right. The very need for either says you don't really want or feel your game needs a leveling system, not if you're doing everything possible to negate a leveling system's entire reason for being.
And that's ignoring that most bolstering and mob scaling systems just plain don't work very well. Typically higher level characters still have an overwhelming advantage over mobs in lower level zones by virtue of conservative scaling factors, increased spell or skill abilities, and/or gear advantages, and lower level characters typically don't fare all that well in high level areas due to the lack of same. Just makes the whole thing seem so pointless, and, again, to me argues strongly that you either go with a zoned level system, a mixed zone level system, or no level system. Halfway measures, like bolster/mob leveling, too easily do more harm than good.
Remember in WoW when you would go to the Badlands, there was an area where Dragons would fly around. They were somewhere in the level 40s, So, you are running around killing dragons in one zone, then you are supposed to "graduate" to a new zone where you start by killing boars. It's not a natural progression.
It's also interesting to see how they deviate in some places from the singleplayer games and how they try to copy in other places. Basically like an ongoing experiment on trying to find the happy middle ground between the company's most successful game and their latest venture. Usually the axiom of, "don't fix what isn't broken" can keep you out of hot water more often than not and I was under the impression the game was doing pretty solid and staying consistent. I'm not saying that the switch to One Tamriel proves otherwise, but rather just makes me curious on how the overall affect will be received. For my part I think it's a good idea.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
I love exploring dangerous, out of my league places, it feels more realistic when I get smashed to pieces when my lvl 1 mage enters a lava cavern filled to the brim with ogres and he tries to kill them. I love that sense of danger, not knowing if you have pushed to far. It gives me a sense of growth when I enter a previously impossible place in the world and can actually fight back. I could actually achieve all of this too if we ditched levels completely and made all of the game gear and skill dependent. Actually, I would love that even more.
Say no to levels
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
This level scaling will cause as many issues as it seeks to solve all the while leaving some players with the feeling of "huh, so I'm in a tattered robe and sandals... Yet I can take down the same mobs this guy, with his elite enchanted armor and sword, is fighting... So what's the point of spending time progressing if it doesn't enable me to explore new areas that were too dangerous before?"
In a single player sandbox game such as Skyrim, this works because there's no point of power reference for the player. They were the chosen one; all the other entities in the game are merely pawns or vessels to usher your character to greatness. It follows that every fight should be interesting, but the chosen one should always have a fair shot of winning. It will be a jarring reality for new players that ESO ISN'T a true ES game when they first meet Johnny Champion farming the same delve he/she is doing for the first time in an early zone. Not only that, but Johnny Champ isn't beating this early content handily? Confusing. Not only is the idea that I'm playing a central role in the world destroyed (just as it is now), but they also realize that they will only tangentially be able to feel their character's personal power increase. Yea, my DPS might have gone from 32 to 120 over those last 5 levels.. But since my attacks do roughly the same amount of relative damage to both the mobs I fought then and the ones I'm fighting now.. Did I really even progress?
IF you're going to scale, do it the way Witcher 3 does it: low level mobs scale up to you... You don't scale up to higher level mobs. It keeps every fight interesting without making things boring by eliminating all real danger.
EDIT- As a side note, if this change is coming in the interest of player freedom... It's overkill. Just allow players to utilize all three realms' zones from level one and you are giving them more freedom than the vast, vast majority of MMORPGs without making the main progression system seem completely superfluous. 3 entirely unique zones per level range? That's more than enough.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Irrespective of whether its a good or bad thing there are concerns - see above. MF did indicate that he / they were aware of the potential problem and the value of the leveling experience and of the significance of getting to level 50.
The only acceptable bolstering of characters I am OK with is in PVP. You're still gimped to a certain extent but you can still usually kill other players and have it be somewhat enjoyable
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
The problems with low levels bolstered to do high level content can be minimized somewhat and in some ways it is slightly better since the removal of veteran ranks because there are extra skill points awarded now at level 5, 10, 15, etc. This allows for slightly better builds earlier than before.
Also, part of the PVE in bolstered zones problem is that there is quite a disconnect presently between the normal level-appropriate zones which have become a cakewalk and the bolstered zones which work in a way similar to the original zones at release. World bosses in Orsinium, for example, are truly group events there once more even for high level players and they can be soloed easily in the normal zones with a good build. If world bosses and public dungeon "group challenge" are meant to truly be content for groups, it should be more or less the same everywhere.
Also currently group dungeons and Cyrodiil unlock at level 10 which, IMO, is 5 levels too early. They could easily keep the first zones after the starter islands in their current level appropriate state to let players at least unlock that second set of 6 skills before they're thrust into the bolstered dungeons and zones and PVP. Besides, from what I have seen grouping with others in many PUGs, those extra five levels help new players a lot in getting the hang of basics like blocking, dodging and the best used of their skills.
I don't think there is anything wrong inherent in the One Tamriel concept but I do think it requires some extra thought and some tweaks instead of just turning on the switch.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
All my main games have this, when you're out of the intro, you can go anywhere you want (maybe with 1-2 exceptions), and if you're outmatched, and they rip off your arm to slap you around with, that's your own fault
Three of them even have Alders' notion, tough areas inserted seamlessly into "regular" areas, for the extra thrill when stumble into them. Sadly when LotRO started the early zone revamps, they took out many of those places... still there's a couple left.
As for the level scaling, I'm with Lahnmir, a very dumb mechanic indeed. The only level scaling I'm ok with, is the optional, within the player's hand, like CoH did (or CO, for some extent). When occasionally you need to scale it to help and play with lower / higher friends and not wreck / hinder their gameplay.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey