Charge Back and Refunds

BeansnBread · July 2016

Actually, it didn't. The article is still up.

Kefo · July 2016

Babuinix said:

Bark or bite, it did shut Escapist's dirty mouth.

gonna have to agree with @BeansnBread on this one since the article is still up that means their mouth hasn't been shut. And if you think the Escapists mouth is dirty I wonder how you would properly describes CIG's mouth due to all the lies they have fed backers.

Babuinix · July 2016

What is in the internet stays in the internet, they stoped writting about CIG or Star Citizen for that matter, completely, their narrative was completely shut down. Good or bad we haven't seen anything from them ever since.

Kefo · July 2016

Babuinix said:

What is in the internet stays in the internet, they stoped writting about CIG or Star Citizen for that matter, completely, their narrative was completely shut down. Good or bad we haven't seen anything from them ever since.

Yeah, the article is still up for anyone who still wishes to read it which means their narrative wasn't completely shut down

jcrg99 · July 2016

Babuinix said:

What is in the internet stays in the internet, they stoped writting about CIG or Star Citizen for that matter, completely, their narrative was completely shut down. Good or bad we haven't seen anything from them ever since.

And what part of "The Escapist wasn't reporting on Star Citizen regularly BEFORE those two articles" you did not understand?

They weren't shut down. They simply weren't following Star Citizen so regularly and just get back to their usual stuff, of not reporting on Star Citizen after those two articles.

Possibly they stopped because that represented more problems than benefits, due how the SC community is capable to behave when press articles do not report good news, attacking them and bothering them in all articles that they write, sending threats, even death threats, etc.

An attitude that has been reported by many members of the press already, by the way, from the most important websites of gaming news, including Forbes and others.

Babuinix · July 2016

Its shutdown because it stopped. It was not erased.

mr1602 · July 2016

'The Escapists' article was accepted by Rob Irving as being 'there is certainly some truth to that'.
I don't think anyone from this forum can claim to know more than him.

This is off topic so in the interest of bring the discussion back to topic, I can now state a 'charge back' can include subscriptions as well as the traditional one-off payments. Takes longer and requires a bit more convincing but VISA / MC did reverse all subscription payments; going back years.

ZettaBytes · July 2016

@mr1602

Is that for real? You can really apply for charge backs on subscription payments?

mr1602 · July 2016

ZettaBytes said:

@mr1602

Is that for real? You can really apply for charge backs on subscription payments?

I can confirm there has been more than one charge back that included the past subscription payments for CIG.

Chalks · July 2016

Thanks for the info mr1602 - it's pretty important that people aren't put off from getting their money back if they're unhappy about a product, no matter how much the corporation involved lies about the situation to try to hang on to their money.

Lack of accountability, more than anything else, is what's undermining this entire project and being able to act like they can take everyone's money and indefinitely push back delivery dates and features without any consequences has to stop if they're ever going to turn this mess around.

mr1602 · July 2016

There was a claim by Erillion and CIG that a $3000 backer was refunded in full.
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/453044/star-citizen-1-5-million-hours-of-alpha-gameplay-by-300-000-backers-since-december-2015/p1

I was forwarded several links that shows that claim was not true at the time it was made.
The full story is recounted here;
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=4551#post462019951

TLDR - Backer does not get the 3000 refunded as CIG claims.
- A Complaint is lodged with FTC / DCBA (Department of Consumer and Business Affairs) / IC3.
- Backer goes through Amazon payments to get a portion of it back. $900
- Backer receives responses from the 3 government entities that he complaint to and one from the Attorney General includes a response from Ortwin (General Counsel of CIG) that they have received*.
- LA County Investigator from DCBA contacts the backer and asks to get as many people as he can to lodge complaints to them so they can 'build a case'.
- Backer is refunded the rest.

Proof that this real - https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/4sjhcn/new_ds_rant_boom_there_it_is_if_your_browser/d5a0418
The case number is 699667, feel free to call 800-952-5225 and inquire.
The 800 number is the phone number to the Cal Attorney General hotline and cases lodged to the AG is considered a public record.

* Ortwin's response is a written legal correspondence with the California attorney general where he lies.
1. The ToS did not state what Ortwin claims it did from 'when crowdfunding began'. You can look at the 1st post of this thread for proof.
2. 'Earned by RSI' is not a true statement as it was CIG at the time.

If someone is having trouble from getting their refund, my recommendation is to lodge a complaint with the DCBA. Even if you are in a non-US country as it is CIG which requires DCBA's approval to operate.
I hope this gives CIG enough reason to grant refunds again.

UnleadedRev · July 2016

This is what CIG sent me, they won't give me a refund.
Should I contact my credit card company?

Thank you very much for contacting us.

I am very sorry to hear that you no longer wish to back Star Citizen, however we have reviewed your account status and we regret that we are not able to accommodate your request for a refund since it was received outside of the statutory 14 day period. I understand that this may seem unwelcoming, but unfortunately we are now obligated to send over the following information as protocol:

You made your pledge to the crowdfunding campaign to raise funds for the development of “Star Citizen.” When you contributed your pledge it was applied to the building of the game and the team and resources needed to make it happen. The funds are not idly maintained in a bank account for months or years in case someone wants his/her money back. Cloud Imperium Games has been working diligently on the development of the game and has published extensive information on the development process on its website at robertsspaceindustries.com. We are very serious about accomplishing what we set out to do, which is to build a great game. We endeavor to keep everyone informed and educated on the progress of game development and what is accomplished with their support: reports, updates and web shows have been made available regularly, and our first gameplay offerings came online as early as fall of 2013. These offerings have been progressively and incrementally expanded over time to share access to the work in progress. We have created a substantial foundation for the game, and early release versions are currently available (see further detail below).

As noted above, your payment was a deposit to be used for the “Game Cost” as defined in your crowdfunding pledge agreement (see Sec. 4 of the Commercial Terms, and Sec. IV.A of the subsequent Terms of Service, as applicable,https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos), and the deposit has since been “earned by CIG and become non-refundable” since it was “used for the Game Cost...” You also agreed to “irrevocably waive any claim for refund of any deposit amount that has been used for the Game Cost and Pledge Item Cost ….” The only exception would be a return of unearned funds remaining in case of an abandonment of the project; this exception does not apply as we have not abandoned development. If you pledged on Kickstarter, you agreed to these terms when you transferred your pledge account to robertsspaceindustries.com.

Terms to this effect have been in the Terms of Service and/or Commercial Terms ever since Star Citizen’s crowdfunding began. They are consistent with the specific nature of crowdfunding and the foreseeable use of your pledge –it would not be appropriate to use current backers’ development pledges to refund an earlier pledge which has already been used for Game Cost. Put simply, “takebacks” are not in the spirit of crowdfunding, the effect would be to pull the rug out from under a team that is working hard to build what the crowd has asked them to build with their pledges.

While quite a lot of the promised gameplay is now available, we acknowledge that delivery of some game elements has been delayed. This is a direct result of the community’s declared desire to have the initial release version of the game developed to a much greater depth, detail, and fidelity than contemplated originally upon start of the campaign. It is inherent to the nature of crowdfunding that such an adjustment to the project may occur. We acknowledge that some individual backers may find the additional wait undesirable. However, as per Sec. VII of the Terms, you did “acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time.” Ultimately, this evolution of development will benefit all backers including yourself, since every backer will be receiving a much greater value for his/her pledge, but it may – as in this case – cause an extension of the delivery dates.

Star Citizen is a project for gamers, by gamers. By financing the project using crowd funding, our team is not beholden to a publisher who would insist we ship a game unfinished, de-featured, or broken to meet a particular schedule. Thanks to continued backing of our community, we have the needed creative freedom over the project to push the boundaries of what is possible in gaming technology and to create a unique game with a unique approach. We feel the results such as unparalleled immersion and fidelity which have been highlighted in many reviews and community reactions, are already speaking for themselves!

Please try out, if you haven’t already, the significant gameplay which is now available (seehttps://robertsspaceindustries.com/feature-list) and we encourage you to download the installer from this url:https://robertsspaceindustries.com/download to patch up and play the latest version of the game.

Again, we regret that we can’t comply with your refund request for the above reasons and sincerely hope you enjoy the updates both current and future in the Star Citizen 'Verse.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter, and if there is anything else we can assist with please let us know, thanks.

Erillion · July 2016

mr1602 said:

There was a claim by Erillion and CIG that a $3000 backer was refunded in full.
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/453044/star-citizen-1-5-million-hours-of-alpha-gameplay-by-300-000-backers-since-december-2015/p1

Feel free to show me where in that text i claimed that the backer would be refunded "IN FULL".
I make it easy for you ... i did not.

The only information in that case i was interested in was the information in CIG/RSI's reply about the amount of backers having played the Alpha (=300.000) and the amount of manhours logged. Which was the whole point of the thread you linked (as the thread title suggests ;-).

Have fun

PottedPlant22 · July 2016

Erillion said:

mr1602 said:

There was a claim by Erillion and CIG that a $3000 backer was refunded in full.
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/453044/star-citizen-1-5-million-hours-of-alpha-gameplay-by-300-000-backers-since-december-2015/p1

Feel free to show me where in that text i claimed that the backer would be refunded "IN FULL".
I make it easy for you ... i did not.

"Nonetheless the guy will get a refund..." <--arguing semantics to make you right, weakens your argument and makes this whole Star Citizen mess look even more crazy.

Have Fun.

SpottyGekko · July 2016

UnleadedRev said:

This is what CIG sent me, they won't give me a refund.
Should I contact my credit card company?

....

Whatever you decide to do, do it quickly.

The longer you wait, the greater the risk of getting no refund, because if the project collapses, there will quite likely be no refunds. At all.

The easiest way to kill this project is to cause a "run on the bank", i.e. scare enough backers into simultaneously demanding refunds. Quite obviously, there's not enough cash to refund everyone, a substantial part has already been spent.

In a case of bankruptcy, backers will be refunded out of what is left after all major debts are settled, so may receive 10 cents on the dollar or some such.

mr1602 · July 2016

UnleadedRev said:

This is what CIG sent me, they won't give me a refund.
Should I contact my credit card company?

Thank you very much for contacting us.

I would lodge a claim with DCBA first and FTC (if you are in USA).
Get case numbers for both and then contact your credit card company.
Make sure they are aware that a California AG is now looking into the matter; refer to the case number 699667.

UnleadedRev · July 2016

mr1602 said:

UnleadedRev said:

This is what CIG sent me, they won't give me a refund.
Should I contact my credit card company?

Thank you very much for contacting us.

I would lodge a claim with DCBA first and FTC (if you are in USA).
Get case numbers for both and then contact your credit card company.
Make sure they are aware that a California AG is now looking into the matter; refer to the case number 699667.

Any advice on how to word it?

CrazKanuk · July 2016

mr1602 said:

UnleadedRev said:

This is what CIG sent me, they won't give me a refund.
Should I contact my credit card company?

Thank you very much for contacting us.

I would lodge a claim with DCBA first and FTC (if you are in USA).
Get case numbers for both and then contact your credit card company.
Make sure they are aware that a California AG is now looking into the matter; refer to the case number 699667.

Interesting!!!!! First prospective litigation I've ever heard of to date.

psiic · July 2016

I have not yet received my refund yet, however CIG has responded to my complaint with their local BBB, denying my complaint, but stating they will be remitting payment. Will update when and if the refund is processed.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5022221/uploads/editor/1x/oqjblqdoabar.jpg

Kefo · July 2016

PottedPlant22 said:

Erillion said:

mr1602 said:

There was a claim by Erillion and CIG that a $3000 backer was refunded in full.
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/453044/star-citizen-1-5-million-hours-of-alpha-gameplay-by-300-000-backers-since-december-2015/p1

Feel free to show me where in that text i claimed that the backer would be refunded "IN FULL".
I make it easy for you ... i did not.

"Nonetheless the guy will get a refund..." <--arguing semantics to make you right, weakens your argument and makes this whole Star Citizen mess look even more crazy.

Have Fun.

It can get more crazy?!?

Erillion · July 2016

Kefo said:

It can get more crazy?!?

--> Pokemon Go ?!

;-)

When will people start with charge-backs there ? "Because that old man with his dog constantly catches all the high value Poke's in my area ....."

Have fun

Xeno.phon · July 2016

Back game in development, try and get a refund years later.......not sure how you can think a refund is legit. Play ToS semantics all you like, RSI can prove progress and ongoing development, you are not entitled to anything but a copy of the finished product.

VorpalChicken28 · July 2016

ohhhh more drama

Kefo · July 2016

Erillion said:

Kefo said:

It can get more crazy?!?

--> Pokemon Go ?!

;-)

When will people start with charge-backs there ? "Because that old man with his dog constantly catches all the high value Poke's in my area ....."

Have fun

Not in Canada yet and I refuse to get a US app store account so I don't know what the craze is about lol

Kefo · July 2016

Xeno.phon said:

Back game in development, try and get a refund years later.......not sure how you can think a refund is legit. Play ToS semantics all you like, RSI can prove progress and ongoing development, you are not entitled to anything but a copy of the finished product.

Except that most consumer protection laws entitle the consumer to a refund up to and including 14 days after the completed product has been delivered. SC is still a work in progress so you are actually entitled to all of your money back.

TOS's aren't worth the paper they are printed on and the Star Citizen one is no exception.

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