You sell more games pitching to grumpy antisocial teens than cerebral, overanalytical adults? Apparently so.
Sorry to have to say this, but that's arrogant as well as ignorant.
My raid leader during WotLK and Cataclyst in WoW was a PHD in mathematics, some stuff that has to do with fluid mechanics. He is kind of a genius in his field. Yet he plays WoW. And Overwatch.
Myself am a software engineer since over 25 years, yet I play WoW. And Overwatch. And Black Desert. And GW2. etc...
Most people I play with are educated, work in intellectual jobs, and are adults.
Seems to me that the antisocial people are those who are unable to go towards other players and group if the game doesn't force them to do so.
Or did I misunderstand you?
Which group do you suppose buys more games?
Why oh why did mmos change (wail).
Well, first because change is inevitable. But also because they followed the money.
I think I get it and I guess I could see the attraction, kind of.
We seem to have an equal split here. However we DON'T have much choice anyway. MMOs are designed for single players, even the classic's are completely single player driven.
This is how I see the attraction:
- The social media of it all. You get to chat with your guild, compare what you have.
- You get the feeling your not alone in the world, and a feeling of liveliness around you.
- The non-stressful feeling of not having to be responsible. After all, others could be nasty.
Things like this have to be it or more off line games would be popular like Elders Scrolls Oblivion. MMO's come with their own style that separates them from RPGs. The leveling and abilities style of play. I call this the one potato chip at a time style. I have to say I like this too. I always find it intriguing to get that new ability that will greatly effect your character, then I want more !......This could be another attraction.
Most here know I'm Old School driven, even to the point it's disgusting. However half of us are Old School driven, just not as blunt.
In my years, I've found a few things to be true.
- Most are shy
- Many are afraid of that bully
- Many don't like to get sucked in
I guess I could understand these three points. Their real !
But lets talk about the " shy " because this is the big one. This towers above all others. In both real life and in game. Everyone is afraid to ask that guy over their to play, he looks intense, better leave him alone. ALMOST EVERYTIME THIS IS NOT THE CASE. More often than not, he is a potential friend !........Try killing something next to him, then offer to play and chat !...... Now you have one friend. This is what an mmo is suppose to be. This is how community's are built.....But now it's all automatic. Developers removed this for easy and a softer approach. Sure their doing it for you, but with consequence's..... MMO's turned into STRICTLY social media.
If your still the " shy " type anyway, that's fine, to each their own...........I just wish their was an mmo for the other half of us !!!!
As an "old school" and "long time" mmo player, I have to say that some of the things said are true but one thing was missed. Some of us have a group of friends we play with exclusively with. When those friends are not around, I like to play alone. Sometimes I might strike up a conversation with another unknown player but if they are not willing to talk I am ok with that. If they do and we find we have anything in common regarding that game or similar, I might invite them to join our group sometime. I do not pressure anyone and I don't ever want to be pressured to play "multiplayer". I think everyone in an mmo should have the right to play the game as they feel is right for them. If you want to play multiplayer all the time then do so. If not, then you should be able to play alone and be left alone.
Because singleplayer games come to an end. Developers finish it, and never add new content. A good example is Bethesda, they release a few very crappy expansions, most which don't do anything that big and are really crappy (bethesda is super lazy) and never update it again. MMOs come to an end as well (mostly if they are crappy or had bad launches), but even UO is ancient and still running
An MMO (like WoW) continues forever. So I spend 15 dollars, and have more content than I will ever have in a singleplayer game.
I can't play a singleplayer RPG that is based on Warcraft, as big as WoW that will forever update as long as it "lives"
I can't play a singleplayer RPG that is based on star wars like SWTOR, and forever updated
I can't play a singleplayer RPG that is based on lord of the rings, like LOTRO, and forever updated
I can't play any game like GW2
I can't play any game like Saga of Ryzom (which I solo in just fine)
Singleplayer games do NOT have a dynamic economy like one based on players is. They can try to replicate it being dynamic, but it isn't nearly like when its player run
Most singleplayer games have tiny lame worlds. Even WoW has a bigger game world (including expansions) than any singleplayer game
MMOs always update (I know I said that before), for only 15 a month...I get more content than any other singleplayer game will ever have in an expansion. 15 dollars is super cheap compared to always paying 50-60 dollars on a new singleplayer game. Granted have to buy WoW expansions, still vastly cheaper in the long run than running out of content in singleplayer games and needing to buy a new one
I can't chat to people in singleplayer games
I can't RP with people in singleplayer games
Singleplayer games are ALWAYS very stagnant. Even Skyrim and Witcher 3 is incredibly stagnant. The world will never change in those
I can't participate or create player run events in singleplayer games
Multiplayer games are really stagnant or force resets, and even the survival games like RUST/ARK or whatever, the server can reset and you lose everything. MMOs you can play one character for decades and decades (or as long as its up and running).
Singleplayer games are vastly more expensive than MMOs
On top of that, even WoW and other MMO expansions are immensely bigger than any singleplayer "expansion". Witcher 3 blood and wine is TINY compared to expansions released by most MMOs.
Developers very often abandon singleplayer games, calling them "finished" (like Witcher 3 for example). Witcher 3 will forever remain unchanged, not updated and there will never be new content for Witcher 3. I spent 60 dollars and I feel it was a HUGE waste of money, compared to pre-ordering Legions for WoW and getting thousands and thousands of hours of content. WoW I have over 5k hours played easily, and its vastly cheaper than buying any singleplayer game
With one exception, there are no MMO strategy games (that are any good anyway). I wouldn't even want an MMO strategy game. I like my total war, europa universalis and CK2 singleplayer (which paradox DOES always update and release DLCs, the single only GOOD game company for singleplayer games)
There are probably vastly more reasons why MMOs are superior (except for strategies are by far better singleplayer for me)...but I can't think of any more and don't need a novel of a list :P
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Games today offer just as much group as they do solo. All the best rewards, fastest xp and most coin come from grouping. Yes they do offer more solo play than many (not most or all) games of the past did. The first sentence still applies.
So just as much group play as solo play should you choose to do that part of the game, and more incentive.
You allready have the majority of the market.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
When people engage in an activity they enjoy, they will do the thing they like, and they will try and do the most efficient form of what they like.
If they don't like something, they won't do it, path of least resistance or not, it's done for enjoyment. They may do something they dislike for a short period but only because they know they will do something they like soon.
Even if you ignore end game, grouping still delivers fasters xp, more coin and better/more loot during the leveling process. If you like to group, do it, they have all the advantages and tons of people are doing it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The question is more why you should bother play an MMO in that case, single player games gives a far better solo experience then MMOs if playing alone if the prefered playing style.
Because some MMOs gives a better solo experience than single player games?
If i want to play an action RPG with marvel super heroes, Marvel Heroes is the only option out there (I do not count the ancient Marvel Ultimate Alliance 1 & 2). So I play MH as a single player game for its IP and gameplay.
Is there a problem if I can enjoy a MMO as a single player game and do so?
Yeah, you still have the right to do what you like but people still have the right to question it and whether this style of games is good for the industry .
Sure. And i have the right to say "why care what is good for the industry? Aren't you playing games just for your own fun?"
And I can also call them out ... that what they claim as "good for the industry" is actually their preferences. I would say their preferences are not better than other people's.
I enjoy the atmosphere of an MMO where I'm around other people, can listen to chat, play the economy, etc. However, time for me these days is precious. It always seems the moment a good group pops up, it is time for me to fix the family dinner, run a kid to some activity, etc. My play time seems to be quite fragmented these days so a MMO where I can pop on, do a few quests or so then pop off is really convenient. I could never play a completely group centric MMO at this point. My schedule is just too flakey.
I do enjoy grouping with folks but haven't really found a good guild that clicks for me in many years. LoTRO was probably my best group MMO and I do miss those times. My best experiences have been in guilds were folks were on the older side. I remember spending many great evenings/weekends in the past gaming with some awesome folks. Sadly, those days have passed for me. As I'm getting older, I find that my patience with folks is a bit lower than in times past. Some of the nonsense I see in groups or in guilds just makes we want to do my own thing.
I am someone who plays MMOs as a solo player and I have often answered the question of why solos play MMOs and I am not sure I understand why its still a question unless one is new to gaming.
The answer is game depth. If I can have a single player game that has the depth of a 'deep' MMO then yes I would play that as a single player game but usually the case in the past has been MMOs have more content then single player. Its a simple answer really
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Why do you think early MMORPGs were successful with small populations? Nothing has changed except developers trying to give mass appeal to an audience that truthfully doesn't exist.
Why do you think early MMORPGs were successful with small populations? Nothing has changed except developers trying to give mass appeal to an audience that truthfully doesn't exist.
Couldn't be because they couldn't attract larger populations? Poor marketing, user-unfriendly products?
Until the Behemoth rolled in and expanded the total market by a couple of orders of magnitude.
But those tens of millions of new players never existed. Truly.
I like playing with others in MMOs, either in a group or just doing events. I LOVE getting backstory and learning about lore through quests in a game, and that is almost entirely a solo affair. When you do something with a group, it is considered 'normal' (and even polite) to rush through things as quickly as possible. When I play solo I go at a snails pace because I like to read every bit of dialogue/flavor text, listen to the music, look at details in the game, and alt tab to google more info about interesting things.
People will play most of the game solo and get to end game and can't play worth a crap in groups.
So what, that's what socialization is all about, helping others learn. You also just highlighted why many do not play in groups, this type of judgmental attitude is one of the most detrimental things to socialized gaming there is.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
When people engage in an activity they enjoy, they will do the thing they like, and they will try and do the most efficient form of what they like.
If they don't like something, they won't do it, path of least resistance or not, it's done for enjoyment. They may do something they dislike for a short period but only because they know they will do something they like soon.
Even if you ignore end game, grouping still delivers fasters xp, more coin and better/more loot during the leveling process. If you like to group, do it, they have all the advantages and tons of people are doing it.
I disagree. Players will do whatever gives them advantages or easiest if allowed in almost ever instance. Many players are unsatisfied with symptoms of their own gameplay choices.
I think I get it and I guess I could see the attraction, kind of.
We seem to have an equal split here. However we DON'T have much choice anyway. MMOs are designed for single players, even the classic's are completely single player driven.
This is how I see the attraction:
- The social media of it all. You get to chat with your guild, compare what you have.
- You get the feeling your not alone in the world, and a feeling of liveliness around you.
- The non-stressful feeling of not having to be responsible. After all, others could be nasty.
Things like this have to be it or more off line games would be popular like Elders Scrolls Oblivion. MMO's come with their own style that separates them from RPGs. The leveling and abilities style of play. I call this the one potato chip at a time style. I have to say I like this too. I always find it intriguing to get that new ability that will greatly effect your character, then I want more !......This could be another attraction.
Most here know I'm Old School driven, even to the point it's disgusting. However half of us are Old School driven, just not as blunt.
In my years, I've found a few things to be true.
- Most are shy
- Many are afraid of that bully
- Many don't like to get sucked in
I guess I could understand these three points. Their real !
But lets talk about the " shy " because this is the big one. This towers above all others. In both real life and in game. Everyone is afraid to ask that guy over their to play, he looks intense, better leave him alone. ALMOST EVERYTIME THIS IS NOT THE CASE. More often than not, he is a potential friend !........Try killing something next to him, then offer to play and chat !...... Now you have one friend. This is what an mmo is suppose to be. This is how community's are built.....But now it's all automatic. Developers removed this for easy and a softer approach. Sure their doing it for you, but with consequence's..... MMO's turned into STRICTLY social media.
If your still the " shy " type anyway, that's fine, to each their own...........I just wish their was an mmo for the other half of us !!!!
Solo = Not having to deal with group members that don't know how to play or work as a team?
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
There is almost zero appeal to me personally of playing an MMO solo. Some of the makeshift excuses as to why solo-play can be OK are listed in the OP, but ultimately MMOs exist for multiplayer play.
There is almost zero appeal to me personally of playing an MMO solo. Some of the makeshift excuses as to why solo-play can be OK are listed in the OP, but ultimately MMOs exist for multiplayer play.
WRONG
Ultima Online, not the first MMO, but one of the oldest...I played solo just as easily as I can solo in most modern MMOs. But people grouped because they wanted to. Granted, you were safer in a group because PvP was death match style (until they nerfed that), but you could still just as easily solo.
Asheron's Call, not the first MMO, but pretty old...about same age as Everquest 1. I could very easily solo, but people grouped because they wanted to
Anarchy Online, very old, still easily to solo in, even at release
Star Wars Galaxies, I soloed 99% of the time, but there was so much player interaction that the game was still a very social experience for me. Again, people grouped because they wanted to
Everquest 1, okay you got me, a group based MMO
DAOC, obviously group focused since it was pretty intensive PvP. However I actually soloed pretty good as far as PvE was concerned.
So out of that small list, EQ1 is really the only old MMO that was group based (could MAYBE solo, but I would never have wanted to in EQ1). And DAOC for PvP, but PvE sorta doable if you had the right class.
MMOs were never made to be forced grouping. Except EQ1 and DAOC for PvP stuff. However, ALL MMOs (older ones for sure) were made with a heavy social atmosphere. Outside EQ1 and if you wanted to PvP in DAOC, most MMOs have always been about doing your own thing, with a heavy social influence so people interacted with each other all the time. But most MMos never forced grouping on you, even old ones
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
I don't care about group play anymore I was one of the lucky ones that played FF11 since release and had forced group play which really was the best thing ever. I don't miss it now cause I'm a parent of 2 and my schedule is unforgiving to forced group play. In other words I have a life now before when I played FF11 I was grouping in game but in real life I was completely alienated and had 0 life.
note: this type of thread comes up over and over I would say just play games enjoy yourself and stop crying. We evolve the games evolve if you don't like it find something else that gives you joy.
edit: Attraction to playing solo in a mmorpg: single player rpg don't have same gameplay as mmorpg I just disslike the movement skills the mobs everything. I like mmorpg gameplay 1000 times better so i don't care if it's solo or group.
TLDR: 1. It feels like you're breaking the game, to achieve things solo when the game's normal way of playing is (ideally) with a group. 2. People are dicks in random group finder systems due to no penalty or punishment, so people get turned off from interacting with others because it always results in time wasted.
I can tell you as someone who's started MMOs way back in the EQ days, that the main attraction for us, was because it was literally gamebreaking to be able to do that. It was either an achievement, or a sign of great wealth (twinking a character so much you could solo a lot without mind-boggling downtime).
Nowadays, I personally think that it's because players are younger and younger, and young kids are usually either dicks, or too emotional about everything and create issues. The second MMOs started having people group automatically, cross server, without ANY sense of responsibility required (as everyone's just a random twerp), then that's when shit hit the fan. Back then, you had your server, your community, and you HAD to engage with people to progress. Be a dick? You'll soon find yourself alone in a game where you just can't do much alone. So you actually tried being nice.
Since all of that is gone, and most people are dicks, then a lot of people just don't want to deal with the toxicity of no-penalty insulting infested random groups. But the initial argument, that it "breaks the game" as the game is supposed to be played with multiple people, is still there.
I don't care about group play anymore I was one of the lucky ones that played FF11 since release and had forced group play which really was the best thing ever. I don't miss it now cause I'm a parent of 2 and my schedule is unforgiving to forced group play. In other words I have a life now before when I played FF11 I was grouping in game but in real life I was completely alienated and had 0 life.
note: this type of thread comes up over and over I would say just play games enjoy yourself and stop crying. We evolve the games evolve if you don't like it find something else that gives you joy.
edit: Attraction to playing solo in a mmorpg: single player rpg don't have same gameplay as mmorpg I just disslike the movement skills the mobs everything. I like mmorpg gameplay 1000 times better so i don't care if it's solo or group.
That's a generally good attitude to have.
I am with you, too. I played ff11 and loved it and thought it was the best thing ever.
I just had a node war tonight. No opposition showed up, but it was a lot of fun to see everyone from the guild.
MMOs are built to be played with other people. That's literally why these things exist.
Why do you think early MMORPGs were successful with small populations? Nothing has changed except developers trying to give mass appeal to an audience that truthfully doesn't exist.
Couldn't be because they couldn't attract larger populations? Poor marketing, user-unfriendly products?
Until the Behemoth rolled in and expanded the total market by a couple of orders of magnitude.
But those tens of millions of new players never existed. Truly.
And look what happened to this genre as a result of developers trying retain those new players. They wanted nothing to do with it. Maybe because all those tens of millions didn't really like what this genre had to offer as much as everyone thought, outside of that one game.
Comments
Why oh why did mmos change (wail).
Well, first because change is inevitable. But also because they followed the money.
As an "old school" and "long time" mmo player, I have to say that some of the things said are true but one thing was missed. Some of us have a group of friends we play with exclusively with. When those friends are not around, I like to play alone. Sometimes I might strike up a conversation with another unknown player but if they are not willing to talk I am ok with that. If they do and we find we have anything in common regarding that game or similar, I might invite them to join our group sometime. I do not pressure anyone and I don't ever want to be pressured to play "multiplayer". I think everyone in an mmo should have the right to play the game as they feel is right for them. If you want to play multiplayer all the time then do so. If not, then you should be able to play alone and be left alone.
Let's party like it is 1863!
An MMO (like WoW) continues forever. So I spend 15 dollars, and have more content than I will ever have in a singleplayer game.
I can't play a singleplayer RPG that is based on Warcraft, as big as WoW that will forever update as long as it "lives"
I can't play a singleplayer RPG that is based on star wars like SWTOR, and forever updated
I can't play a singleplayer RPG that is based on lord of the rings, like LOTRO, and forever updated
I can't play any game like GW2
I can't play any game like Saga of Ryzom (which I solo in just fine)
Singleplayer games do NOT have a dynamic economy like one based on players is. They can try to replicate it being dynamic, but it isn't nearly like when its player run
Most singleplayer games have tiny lame worlds. Even WoW has a bigger game world (including expansions) than any singleplayer game
MMOs always update (I know I said that before), for only 15 a month...I get more content than any other singleplayer game will ever have in an expansion. 15 dollars is super cheap compared to always paying 50-60 dollars on a new singleplayer game. Granted have to buy WoW expansions, still vastly cheaper in the long run than running out of content in singleplayer games and needing to buy a new one
I can't chat to people in singleplayer games
I can't RP with people in singleplayer games
Singleplayer games are ALWAYS very stagnant. Even Skyrim and Witcher 3 is incredibly stagnant. The world will never change in those
I can't participate or create player run events in singleplayer games
Multiplayer games are really stagnant or force resets, and even the survival games like RUST/ARK or whatever, the server can reset and you lose everything. MMOs you can play one character for decades and decades (or as long as its up and running).
Singleplayer games are vastly more expensive than MMOs
On top of that, even WoW and other MMO expansions are immensely bigger than any singleplayer "expansion". Witcher 3 blood and wine is TINY compared to expansions released by most MMOs.
Developers very often abandon singleplayer games, calling them "finished" (like Witcher 3 for example). Witcher 3 will forever remain unchanged, not updated and there will never be new content for Witcher 3. I spent 60 dollars and I feel it was a HUGE waste of money, compared to pre-ordering Legions for WoW and getting thousands and thousands of hours of content. WoW I have over 5k hours played easily, and its vastly cheaper than buying any singleplayer game
With one exception, there are no MMO strategy games (that are any good anyway). I wouldn't even want an MMO strategy game. I like my total war, europa universalis and CK2 singleplayer (which paradox DOES always update and release DLCs, the single only GOOD game company for singleplayer games)
There are probably vastly more reasons why MMOs are superior (except for strategies are by far better singleplayer for me)...but I can't think of any more and don't need a novel of a list :P
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
All those complaining are the real anti social who won't accept other type of gamers.
Many mmorpg today are build to accept all kind of gamers, and put everyone in one game.
So just as much group play as solo play should you choose to do that part of the game, and more incentive.
You allready have the majority of the market.
If they don't like something, they won't do it, path of least resistance or not, it's done for enjoyment. They may do something they dislike for a short period but only because they know they will do something they like soon.
Even if you ignore end game, grouping still delivers fasters xp, more coin and better/more loot during the leveling process. If you like to group, do it, they have all the advantages and tons of people are doing it.
If i want to play an action RPG with marvel super heroes, Marvel Heroes is the only option out there (I do not count the ancient Marvel Ultimate Alliance 1 & 2). So I play MH as a single player game for its IP and gameplay.
Is there a problem if I can enjoy a MMO as a single player game and do so?
Sure. And i have the right to say "why care what is good for the industry? Aren't you playing games just for your own fun?"
And I can also call them out ... that what they claim as "good for the industry" is actually their preferences. I would say their preferences are not better than other people's.
I do enjoy grouping with folks but haven't really found a good guild that clicks for me in many years. LoTRO was probably my best group MMO and I do miss those times. My best experiences have been in guilds were folks were on the older side. I remember spending many great evenings/weekends in the past gaming with some awesome folks. Sadly, those days have passed for me. As I'm getting older, I find that my patience with folks is a bit lower than in times past. Some of the nonsense I see in groups or in guilds just makes we want to do my own thing.
The answer is game depth. If I can have a single player game that has the depth of a 'deep' MMO then yes I would play that as a single player game but usually the case in the past has been MMOs have more content then single player. Its a simple answer really
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Nothing has changed except developers trying to give mass appeal to an audience that truthfully doesn't exist.
Until the Behemoth rolled in and expanded the total market by a couple of orders of magnitude.
But those tens of millions of new players never existed. Truly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Ultima Online, not the first MMO, but one of the oldest...I played solo just as easily as I can solo in most modern MMOs. But people grouped because they wanted to. Granted, you were safer in a group because PvP was death match style (until they nerfed that), but you could still just as easily solo.
Asheron's Call, not the first MMO, but pretty old...about same age as Everquest 1. I could very easily solo, but people grouped because they wanted to
Anarchy Online, very old, still easily to solo in, even at release
Star Wars Galaxies, I soloed 99% of the time, but there was so much player interaction that the game was still a very social experience for me. Again, people grouped because they wanted to
Everquest 1, okay you got me, a group based MMO
DAOC, obviously group focused since it was pretty intensive PvP. However I actually soloed pretty good as far as PvE was concerned.
So out of that small list, EQ1 is really the only old MMO that was group based (could MAYBE solo, but I would never have wanted to in EQ1). And DAOC for PvP, but PvE sorta doable if you had the right class.
MMOs were never made to be forced grouping. Except EQ1 and DAOC for PvP stuff. However, ALL MMOs (older ones for sure) were made with a heavy social atmosphere. Outside EQ1 and if you wanted to PvP in DAOC, most MMOs have always been about doing your own thing, with a heavy social influence so people interacted with each other all the time. But most MMos never forced grouping on you, even old ones
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Oh you're going to tell me what appeals to me now?
note: this type of thread comes up over and over I would say just play games enjoy yourself and stop crying. We evolve the games evolve if you don't like it find something else that gives you joy.
edit: Attraction to playing solo in a mmorpg: single player rpg don't have same gameplay as mmorpg I just disslike the movement skills the mobs everything. I like mmorpg gameplay 1000 times better so i don't care if it's solo or group.
1. It feels like you're breaking the game, to achieve things solo when the game's normal way of playing is (ideally) with a group.
2. People are dicks in random group finder systems due to no penalty or punishment, so people get turned off from interacting with others because it always results in time wasted.
I can tell you as someone who's started MMOs way back in the EQ days, that the main attraction for us, was because it was literally gamebreaking to be able to do that. It was either an achievement, or a sign of great wealth (twinking a character so much you could solo a lot without mind-boggling downtime).
Nowadays, I personally think that it's because players are younger and younger, and young kids are usually either dicks, or too emotional about everything and create issues. The second MMOs started having people group automatically, cross server, without ANY sense of responsibility required (as everyone's just a random twerp), then that's when shit hit the fan. Back then, you had your server, your community, and you HAD to engage with people to progress. Be a dick? You'll soon find yourself alone in a game where you just can't do much alone. So you actually tried being nice.
Since all of that is gone, and most people are dicks, then a lot of people just don't want to deal with the toxicity of no-penalty insulting infested random groups. But the initial argument, that it "breaks the game" as the game is supposed to be played with multiple people, is still there.
I am with you, too. I played ff11 and loved it and thought it was the best thing ever.
I just had a node war tonight. No opposition showed up, but it was a lot of fun to see everyone from the guild.
MMOs are built to be played with other people. That's literally why these things exist.