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Does everyone hate PvP?

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Answers

  • JermzyJermzy Member UncommonPosts: 211
    It is because PvP is to difficult for PvE'rs.   /chuckles   Just kidding.  Maybe.
    Haroo!
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    One game that pure PVE'er's always seem to mention when they talk about their hate of PVP is EVE Online. When they do this, however, it makes me wonder if they've actually played it, or just heard about it and believed the lies.

    To be quite honest, EVE gives PVE'ers tons of game mechanics that can be used to easily avoid PVP.  In fact, you pretty much have be trying to PVP in order to get blown up in EVE.  It's so incredibly easy to avoid a fight, that my fleets sometimes undock and roam for two hours without finding anyone who is willing to fight, and we simply don't get to PVP.
  • SoloAnythingSoloAnything Member UncommonPosts: 308
    I'll sound like a Vulcan saying that PvP in mmorpg is not logical. I PvP in mmo fps which actually requires skill not gear and levels. First PvP experience was Unreal Tournament back in the late 90s and was awesome. In mmorpg I'm looking for big world exploring exping grouping up not bwing bothered by assholes higher lv and gear while I'm trying to enjoy a stress free gaming after a long day at work.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,004
    edited June 2016
    H0urg1ass said:
    The anti PVP crowd is extremely vocal, but their majority is nowhere remotely near as large as they would have you believe.  In fact, if you factor in the amount of pure PVE games sold every year to the amount of PVP predicated games sold/played every year, then PVE is actually the minority outside of the MMORPG landscape.  Just look at CoD, LoL, DOTA, Overwatch, Battlefield and the dozens of RTS games.  PVP is king.

    Blizzard released this infographic recently and it states that there are 900K PVE instances started every day and 670K PVP instances started every day across their servers.  So even in WoW, PVP isn't as small a segment as the pure PVE'ers would have you believe.

    Cod,LoL,DOTA,Overwatch,Battlefield are games where players know from the get go and consent to the PvP because it is an even playground (set aside the cheating). It isn't a situation where you are playing and killing a mob and are half dead when someone decides to come and kill you and stay there killing you over and over.

    Of course if you you use all those games as being supportive of the statistic that more gamers are PvP. I agree in an even playground yes. Even the PvP instances in WoW are again consented to and  balanced  in as much as  they can be but are not the type of PvP people dislike.

    You're being disingenuous to suggest this is the type of PvP people dislike,because it isn't.

    We are talking about open world PvP and ganking and FFA PvP. What are your stats on that compared to MMORPGs with PvE and you also cannot consider consented PvP which most PvEers are willing to do.

    You know why people use EvE as an example. It was the bad publicity of one player driving and egging another player to kill themselves in real life and crowing about it publicly and encouraging them to do it  that even CCP found hard to gloss over or deliberately scamming them out of real money. Those types of acts are what earned EvE the bad name it thoroughly deserves.

  • sumdumguy1sumdumguy1 Member RarePosts: 1,373
    I used to pvp regularly but got sick of the cheating.  Now I understand not everyone cheats and in all honesty I don't think most do, but my own experiences have involved more than a few people caught cheating.  This has turned me off the pvp and now I am more into ops with others.  I have to admit, I do still go back to the original Guild Wars every now and then with my old guild and fight a few fights.  I have no desire to play any of the newer pvp centric games.
  • beebop500beebop500 Member UncommonPosts: 217
    I have been a longtime fan of PvP too, but imho, there are some things that can make PvP great, and some other aspects that can make it terrible.
    PvP is fun and was a large part of my endgame, but I'm gonna go ahead and throw out the idea that PvP should be consensual, and should involve players who are equal or near-equal levels, and (ideally) with similar gear.  Sorry to all of the "open-world" PvP fans, but killing players who are 20 levels below you does not constitute "PvP" in any way, shape, or form.  This is doubly true of the roving five-player packs in many OWPvP games that aren't looking for a challenge; they are looking for easy kills.

    And I think that in itself has turned off a lot of Western players....and can you blame them?  We have been inundated with hype for many "sandbox" games, and yet none of them have been long-term successes.  That's not due to their systems, I think, but due to the people who populate them.  OWPvP in the East is much different (usually), as they tend to police themselves, and griefers/gankers are generally shunned and hunted.  That is not the case on these shores, where e-peen is of primary importance, and the "me first" attitude is so prevalent.  

    So I would offer that there is a large number of non-PvP regulars who may be at least interested in PvP, provided that it was presented on even ground, and where that good old buzzword, "skill", would actually mean something.  I would point to the PvP in Guild Wars 1 as a shining example of this, but sadly, that sort of direction seems to have been lost.

    Not so sure if most of the PvP "haters" so much dislike the PvP itself, as they do the terrible communities that some all-PvP games have begotten.  Just my 2c.
    "We are all as God made us, and many of us much worse." - Don Quixote
  • Rhiow-DarkstepRhiow-Darkstep Member UncommonPosts: 26
    For me, what I don't like is when PvP is 'balanced' around 1v1 combat. In an MMO, it should be based around group v group encounters. The biggest challenge for developers being balancing the various group combinations whlist trying to avoid individual OP classes. Games lately just don't get it right, and players always flock to the OP, not neccesarily because it's the best, or most fun, but because it's OP.

    PvP also needs a purpose.  OWPvP very rarely has any purpose. Faction vs Faction, or RvR only works when there is a reason to do it, and something worth fighting for.

    My fondest PvP memories are from DAoC where group play actually worked in RvR and although you still had the solo-stealthers and the Zergs, a well coordinated group was so much more fun and RvR actually felt like it meant something. When your realm came under attack, people responded and you fought for you realm, not for personal glory.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,004
    Absolutely a fan of consented PvP. I will take part in consented PvP any time and enjoy it. 

  • cowheadcowhead Member UncommonPosts: 94
    H0urg1ass said:
    One game that pure PVE'er's always seem to mention when they talk about their hate of PVP is EVE Online. When they do this, however, it makes me wonder if they've actually played it, or just heard about it and believed the lies.

    To be quite honest, EVE gives PVE'ers tons of game mechanics that can be used to easily avoid PVP.  In fact, you pretty much have be trying to PVP in order to get blown up in EVE.  It's so incredibly easy to avoid a fight, that my fleets sometimes undock and roam for two hours without finding anyone who is willing to fight, and we simply don't get to PVP.
    This is very true. PvP is a constant in EvE. But as H0urg1ass said, its very easy to react to or even avoid. I believe that EvE works so well as a PvP sandbox because of its absolute reliance between PvP and PvE players. Without miners and industrialists, the PvP players would have no ships to fly. Everything is made by the players. More MMO's need to have this dynamic. Make PvP players rely on PvE players to make the equipment they use. Make PvP players actually want to defend their gatherer and crafters. Have some crafting materials drop in more dangerous areas (i.e. Raids, Dungeons, or contested areas). Make territory actually matter. The divide between PvP and PvE will always exist but interdependance between both sides would lessen it.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    For me, what I don't like is when PvP is 'balanced' around 1v1 combat. In an MMO, it should be based around group v group encounters. 
    "Group balance" is an excuse for poor balance.
  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
    edited June 2016
    PvE is just gear checks and mechanic learning process (until we see AI/mobs adapt and change behavior). I've been in all types of PvP. I've been ganked, griefed and I've ganked and griefed. I've been weaker and stronger, I've been disliked and praised. I've been respected and accused of cheating, basically I've been in every possible PvP scenario....Unlike the many, I still enjoy it and I will always prefer a game that has PvP feature over the one that does not. It is after all a "feature" and the more features a game has in more different ways can be played and enjoyed.

    To those that complain and cry about balance and what not, man up. There is no such thing as "balance". There is only learn to play by the rules the game has or quit it, something I know most have hard time doing, especially in real life, where PvP is at its core and is as unbalanced as it can be.

    One of the biggest issues I have is with the individuals that push their agendas through whining and crying the game to change toward their preferences, where the reality is they are the ones that cannot adapt, learn or move on. They want things be done in their way. Entitled I would say, something babies and kids have in common with.

    If you are failing to enjoy a product, it's your loss and pray the next one will satisfy you, because there is only as many products before you stop being a gamer. Nobody will take away that from me cuz a true gamer enjoys every single game for what it is. Despite how much I try to push gaming forward and voting with my wallet, I can still enjoy tetris for all of what it offers.

    image

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    edited June 2016
    Alverant said:
    So, for those of you who really really don't like PvP. What is it about it that makes it so terrible for you? I'm genuinely curious, since I enjoy it myself.
    The PvPers themselves. They have fun attacking weaker players then mocking them for being weak. "Git gud" is not an excuse to be a bully.
    Isn't that the low hanging fruit in terms of this discussion though? It's not like Elite PVE guilds and players aren't the same exact way.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    People don't hate PVP. But that's not what's been implemented in most MMOs. What people hate is griefing with impunity, which is the game that's been implemented in most MMOs.
    PVE ppl call it PVP when they win, griefing when they lose.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • MargraveMargrave Member RarePosts: 1,365
    I know that since I got older, I don't enjoy it anymore.

    It's not fun for me to be fodder for the 12 year olds.
  • MuktukMuktuk Member UncommonPosts: 84
    I get bored with zerg PvP after ~1 min.
    I get bored with small PvP maps after doing them 2 - 3 times.
    I prove myself in real life ... I play games to have fun.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Margrave said:
    I know that since I got older, I don't enjoy it anymore.

    It's not fun for me to be fodder for the 12 year olds.
    Git gud!
  • DztBlkDztBlk Member UncommonPosts: 127
    edited June 2016
    I've been on these forums for a little while now and I often see negative opinions about PvP and the people who like it. About how PvP is ruining MMO's and so on. Sometimes it's almost as if there's an unofficial war going on between PvP'ers and PvE'ers, which would be silly.

    As for myself, I enjoy some good PvP because of the competitive aspect. It's fun to play against and defeat your enemies in contest, knowing it was a player sitting at the other end. It's one thing to outsmart an A.I. and another entirely to outsmart a person. It just feels satisfying.

    But I also love the persistant nature of MMO games. How you can create and build up a character over time, customize it and specialize it in a great big world with tons of other players, allowing for a lot of social interaction along the way. 

    So when I find an enjoyable MMO with PvP in it, I rejoice! But it seems to me a lot of people think the opposite. Not only having a disinterest in PvP but actively despising it to the point of refusing to play a game if PvP is present at all.

    So, for those of you who really really don't like PvP. What is it about it that makes it so terrible for you? I'm genuinely curious, since I enjoy it myself.

    Now, I understand not everyone likes the same things and that's cool. There are plenty of things I don't like myself. The question is aimed more towards the demographic that seems to actively hate PvP. 
    You're also welcome to just throw in your general opinion on the subject even if you don't hate it of course.

    I understand your view and it would seem that what you say is true.  I really can't say what the true cause of the rift is.  I played City of Heroes/Villians (CoH) exclusively for years.  There were zones for PvP and SuperGroups could be made to tailor to any theme.  However, the majority of the focus was on PvE.  I have a very close friend who is a dedicated PvPer and he misses that games as much as I do.  I have almost zero interest in PvP.  I have done occasional duels in arenas.  That's fun from time to time. 

    I feel the move towards sandbox mmos has potentially only made the rift worse.  Sandbox mmos can seem like lame ass attempts to appease both.  In the sandbox mmos I have encountered none of the archetypes really need anyone else.  Sure, some type may buff or heal...a bit.  Psft.  This encourages a population of PvPers who primary focus is to battle other players.  By the way, this game type can also discourages teamplay, dialogue,and community.  That's can be very important to PvE players.  That said, I am personally playing a sandbox mmo right now, but I'm basically running around solo.  Don't need anyone...so far.  I do agree with the PvP flag thing as a good solution.  Lastly, MOBAs are what I always considered as console games.  That's why I had a playstation and a PC (besides some actual work from time to time). 

    Anyway, that's my opinion for whatever it's worth...since you asked. =)

    **NOTICE** Notice the use of the words "encourages" and "can" in my response.
  • barasawabarasawa Member UncommonPosts: 618
    No, of course not.
    There are definitely a group of people that love PvP, even those that love it exclusively. 
    Over the last decade or so, they've been VERY vocal about it, demanding it from every game to such a point that now devs hardly think about not including some kind of PvP. 

    However, it's now gotten to the point with so much non-consensual PvP in games that otherwise seem rather interesting, and many games that have barely done a handwave at PvE that the PvE crowd has had enough and started getting vocal as well. 

    A lot of PvPers, don't care if there are PvEers around that they can't attack, because they can't be attacked by them either. It's a mutual don't bother me, I'm doing something else. That's been around since close to the beginning and never caused a problem. Did you ever hear of anyone in Everquest complaining that they couldn't gank that PvEer that was mining mithril or that PvEer complain that he got ganked when he was mining mithril in EQ? No, because they had PvP Consent Flags. Both types could play and not bother each other. (Except for griefers that always find a way to screw with other people, just look up trains in everquest for one example.)

    As I was saying, with most PvEers, it doesn't matter either, so long as they don't have to be a part of the PvP. You guys can go gank yourselves all day long and leave a mountain of your own corpses, I'm going to be over here trying to catch the golden red herring, or whatever that quest is. It's when it becomes non-consensual it becomes a problem. 

    Now the 'hate' you've been hearing is the vocal people. I've been one of them to some extent with stating my own opinions and ideas. It seems to me that on the PvP side you see a tendency for a "we want to kill everyone in the game" attitude combined with a smattering of "if it ain't killing players it shouldn't exist so get rid of those quests and lore and storyline". 
    On the PvE side it's a large chunk of "leave us the F alone you inveterate @##&;@*s!", and a side order of "PvE works just fine without PvP so you can suck it!". 

    The only real problem is the intractible scum that won't allow anything other than their absolute ideal. I for one am a proponent of the compromise that is known to work perfectly well for 99% of the players out there, PvP needs to be consensual, usually like a flag set much like it was in EQ all those long years ago. (WoWs instant switch with 5 minute cooldown to switch back is ripe for certain types of abuse, so I advocate something more strict than that.) 

    Just remember that in general, most of the players aren't saying anything in these forums at all. Even the ones who read them. What you are seeing is only the most vocal among us.

    Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  • BurntCabbageBurntCabbage Member UncommonPosts: 482
    i for one love pvp..but a pvp on a even lvl or a chance for me also to win..not a fan of pvp where you have to grind your ass off or be twinked out..also not much of a fan of "battle grounds" or 'area" type pvp
  • barasawabarasawa Member UncommonPosts: 618
    Distopia said:
    Alverant said:
    So, for those of you who really really don't like PvP. What is it about it that makes it so terrible for you? I'm genuinely curious, since I enjoy it myself.
    The PvPers themselves. They have fun attacking weaker players then mocking them for being weak. "Git gud" is not an excuse to be a bully.
    Isn't that the low hanging fruit in terms of this discussion though? It's not like Elite PVE guilds and players aren't the same exact way.
    Yes it is the low hanging fruit, and whether you like it or not, there are plenty of PvPers that will go out of their way to target that same low hanging noob fruit.
    It doesn't take a large percentage of the populace to do that to spoil it for everyone, and that percentage definitely exists.

    Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    PvE'ers enjoy the environment, exploring, and questing for the most part.  In PvP open world games or zones you have to fight your way to get to that content a lot of times.  Or you may not be able to do a quest at all if someone is quest camping and enjoys killing you just to keep you from doing the quest.  So to avoid this, you have to minimax your character which may require more time then you can spent on a game, or what while your guild comes to help.

    Now, some games like L2 had open world PvP but I could go days without having to PvP or getting ganked which means to me the Devs had good game mechanics for PvP and PvE content.  You also had good escape mechanics that made it pretty easy to avoid PvP if you didn't get oneshoted.  Eve was actually pretty easy to avoid ganking once you learned the game.

    Griefing and ganking can indeed force you to change you plans for the session into their plans for your session.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    kitarad said:
    H0urg1ass said:
    The anti PVP crowd is extremely vocal, but their majority is nowhere remotely near as large as they would have you believe.  In fact, if you factor in the amount of pure PVE games sold every year to the amount of PVP predicated games sold/played every year, then PVE is actually the minority outside of the MMORPG landscape.  Just look at CoD, LoL, DOTA, Overwatch, Battlefield and the dozens of RTS games.  PVP is king.

    Blizzard released this infographic recently and it states that there are 900K PVE instances started every day and 670K PVP instances started every day across their servers.  So even in WoW, PVP isn't as small a segment as the pure PVE'ers would have you believe.

    Cod,LoL,DOTA,Overwatch,Battlefield are games where players know from the get go and consent to the PvP because it is an even playground (set aside the cheating). It isn't a situation where you are playing and killing a mob and are half dead when someone decides to come and kill you and stay there killing you over and over.

    Of course if you you use all those games as being supportive of the statistic that more gamers are PvP. I agree in an even playground yes. Even the PvP instances in WoW are again consented to and  balanced  in as much as  they can be but are not the type of PvP people dislike.

    You're being disingenuous to suggest this is the type of PvP people dislike,because it isn't.

    We are talking about open world PvP and ganking and FFA PvP. What are your stats on that compared to MMORPGs with PvE and you also cannot consider consented PvP which most PvEers are willing to do.

    You know why people use EvE as an example. It was the bad publicity of one player driving and egging another player to kill themselves in real life and crowing about it publicly and encouraging them to do it  that even CCP found hard to gloss over or deliberately scamming them out of real money. Those types of acts are what earned EvE the bad name it thoroughly deserves.
    First of all, you apparently didn't read the OP very well.  I'm not being disingenuous in the least.  I'm answering his question, not responding to your inserted bias.  He doesn't mention once FFA PVP.  He's talking about the overall general hate-mood for PVP on these forums, and it isn't relegated to the tiny microcosm of FFA PVP games, of which they are a tiny tiny minority of MMORPG's.

    You, however, are on a one man crusade against FFA PVP and magically appear like genie whenever you think it is being mentioned to remind everyone how much you hate it.  We get it.

    Also, the EVE incident you're bringing up is like 2011 era old old news.  It's such old news that it's now 2016 and there hasn't been an incident remotely like it since.  That kind of person is in the extreme minority of EVE, and yet that's another game you will magically appear to hate on every time you can.  

    The filth and hate found in LoL and DOTA far surpasses anything I've ever seen in EVE.  EVE doesn't have a bad name, it simply has haters, of which you are one.  If you had ever actually played EVE, you'd find one of the generally warmest and most welcoming communities of gamers in an MMO.
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    People don't hate PVP. But that's not what's been implemented in most MMOs. What people hate is griefing with impunity, which is the game that's been implemented in most MMOs.
    Implemented by the people playing the game.
    BDO has both PVE and PVP, but there are consequences to being a PK'er, not that there isn't a lot of PVP in the game, wars between guilds are not uncommon, and there is more to come, but the ones doing the complaining, are not really PVP'ers, they are the ones who just like to PK with impunity.
  • p4ttythep3rf3ctp4ttythep3rf3ct Member UncommonPosts: 194
    I like both.  I enjoy being able to veg out and PvE for hours sometimes, while on the other hand, sometimes I feel like yelling.  

    That's just, like, my opinion, man.

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