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Does everyone hate PvP?
GrayPhilosopher
Member UncommonPosts: 78
I've been on these forums for a little while now and I often see negative opinions about PvP and the people who like it. About how PvP is ruining MMO's and so on. Sometimes it's almost as if there's an unofficial war going on between PvP'ers and PvE'ers, which would be silly.
As for myself, I enjoy some good PvP because of the competitive aspect. It's fun to play against and defeat your enemies in contest, knowing it was a player sitting at the other end. It's one thing to outsmart an A.I. and another entirely to outsmart a person. It just feels satisfying.
But I also love the persistant nature of MMO games. How you can create and build up a character over time, customize it and specialize it in a great big world with tons of other players, allowing for a lot of social interaction along the way.
So when I find an enjoyable MMO with PvP in it, I rejoice! But it seems to me a lot of people think the opposite. Not only having a disinterest in PvP but actively despising it to the point of refusing to play a game if PvP is present at all.
So, for those of you who really really don't like PvP. What is it about it that makes it so terrible for you? I'm genuinely curious, since I enjoy it myself.
Now, I understand not everyone likes the same things and that's cool. There are plenty of things I don't like myself. The question is aimed more towards the demographic that seems to actively hate PvP.
You're also welcome to just throw in your general opinion on the subject even if you don't hate it of course.
As for myself, I enjoy some good PvP because of the competitive aspect. It's fun to play against and defeat your enemies in contest, knowing it was a player sitting at the other end. It's one thing to outsmart an A.I. and another entirely to outsmart a person. It just feels satisfying.
But I also love the persistant nature of MMO games. How you can create and build up a character over time, customize it and specialize it in a great big world with tons of other players, allowing for a lot of social interaction along the way.
So when I find an enjoyable MMO with PvP in it, I rejoice! But it seems to me a lot of people think the opposite. Not only having a disinterest in PvP but actively despising it to the point of refusing to play a game if PvP is present at all.
So, for those of you who really really don't like PvP. What is it about it that makes it so terrible for you? I'm genuinely curious, since I enjoy it myself.
Now, I understand not everyone likes the same things and that's cool. There are plenty of things I don't like myself. The question is aimed more towards the demographic that seems to actively hate PvP.
You're also welcome to just throw in your general opinion on the subject even if you don't hate it of course.
Best Answers
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Alverant
RarePosts: 1,320
The PvPers themselves. They have fun attacking weaker players then mocking them for being weak. "Git gud" is not an excuse to be a bully.GrayPhilosopher said:So, for those of you who really really don't like PvP. What is it about it that makes it so terrible for you? I'm genuinely curious, since I enjoy it myself. -
k61977
EpicPosts: 1,503
I don't mind when PVP is what a game is designed around. On the other hand I can't stand when a game was designed for a PVE experience and they tack on PVP to get more customers. I wont play games that are full loot either. Got tired of that experience many many years ago with Ulltima Online. Games like those tend to end up with mob mentalities where you hardly ever see one on one, mostly group jumping single or smaller groups just to take gear.
I do enjoy the games like ESO where they broke up PVP and PVE but both are designed to be there at different places and times. Unfortunately for games like ESO they haven't figured out a way to handle massive groups, which are lagging out their servers and causing delays on skills etc....But overall it has gotten better to some degree since launch.
I tend to stay away from any game where they say PVP is the end game as it is lazy development. It basically says here we are going to give you this awesome experience on the PVE side up till this point and then force you to PVP. If you want PVP, then it should be from the start not changing mid game to a new format.
I tend to like games that have server sets that allow for flagging. Mostly this is for if i am having a bad day and just want to do some PVE activities I can do those without having to constantly worry about someone else. Everything has a time and a place but for games that have both from the start this is the best option for me. As it allows me to PVP when I feel like it and doesn't force me to if I don't.
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cameltosis
LegendaryPosts: 3,707
My summary of why people hate pvp:
1) Gankers - when a person / people with significantly higher power than you attack you and kill you. In these situations, the gankers interupt the player's game but that player has little/no possibility of winning. There is no positive, only negative, to this experience. This only happens in games with open world pvp where everyone is permanently flagged, i.e. about 1% of MMOs. Not a problem in general, just blown out of proportion.
2) Losing - We play for fun and losing isn't fun. Assuming you are an average player, 50% of pvpers are going to be better than you, so you'll lose 50% of the time. Do you really want to spend half your free time losing? Compared to PvE which is designed for you to win 99% of the time. This is something most pvp-haters wont admit to but this is a fundamental mindset problem. Can't be fixed
3) Competition / Confrontation - PvP by it's nature is competitive. In every fight, you're trying to beat another person or group of people. Some people just aren't competitive by nature and so the whole notion of fighting other people doesn't appeal. Some might admit to this, but its not really a problem, pvp just isn't for everyone
4) Balance - Pure PvEers often complain that their class got nerfed due to PvP. They hate the fact that developers are balancing classes around PvP. In my experience of MMOs with both, balance happens 95% due to PvE and 5% due to PvP. This has been backed up by the devs (lotro and sw:tor). Ultimately, it sucks when any class gets nerfed. This problem varies developer to developer. In most games, its not a problem and people are just whining, but in other games the devs get over-zealous. Problem works both ways - pvp balance is often screwed due to pve balance tweaks, but pvpers don't shout at the pve'ers as often.
Looking at my gaming history, I'd say I spend probably 60% of my time in PvE and 40% in PvP. I'd personally never play a game that didn't have both in some form or another because I value both playstyles, both communities and enjoy interacting with both. There is also a lot of crossover between the two.
Problems only arise when one group feels overly entitled (e.g. "this is primarily a pve game, how dare you balance for pvp!") or when developers don't think through their actions properly. It is the last that is the big problem. If you have a game with significant PvE portions but have perma-flagged ow-pvp, you're gonna get gankers, so why enable such a feature to begin with??!?
Same with balance. Most of the nerfs tend to come not from pvp, but because the devs weren't balancing consistently. For example, when LotRO launched, it was balanced around group v group for PvE. But, it meant the healer sucked to level up, so damage got boosted (for PVE!) which unbalanced pvp (healers OP). Same with a lot of other classes - their solo abilities got boosted for the leveling process, which then unbalanced them in group situations, resulting in nerfs......its never ending. Perfect balance doesn't exist in complicated games, so devs just need to pick either solo (1v1) or group (rock-paper-scissors) right from the start and balance classes that way. -
Sovrath LegendaryPosts: 32,015
I kind of think this has been talked about ad nauseum on this site.GrayPhilosopher said:
So, for those of you who really really don't like PvP. What is it about it that makes it so terrible for you? I'm genuinely curious, since I enjoy it myself.
My take is that it's not so much "pvp" but the people who make the pvp scene a "bad scene". There are just too many people with too many issues who derive pleasure from making others uncomfortable. No sportsmanship.
Of course you also have the people who constantly can't understand why anyone would do anything that doesn't get "the blood pumping".
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kitarad
LegendaryPosts: 7,919
For me I dislike the acid in my stomach when I get stalked and killed over and over so I quit in the end .Tried it a couple of times only time I enjoyed it was WoW BGs where it was fairer in the beginning later on when they came in with better gear and gravecamped I quit this type of nonsense yet again.
I'm not trying to paint everyone with the ganker idiot brush but the ones who make fun and camp even if it is just once was enough for me so yes I do not like open PvP games period.
I can do without them and I enjoy my PvE experience and best of all I don't need these type of players ruining the game for me.
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spankybus
UncommonPosts: 1,367
I hate what PVP enables. Some of the lowest forms of human behavior. If you derive pleasure from inflicting misery on others, you have issues. And those how say, "It's just a game, relax man."
Behavior is Behavior.
Now, the other real problem that i have with games that have unlimited PvP is there are no real consequences to curtail said behavior. Why aren't more people murdering, abusing fucktards in the real world? I think it is because there are very real consequences for said behavior. But in games, anonymity and a consequence-free environment shows what people can really get up to if allowed. Like Lord of the Flies.
I am, however, a fan of games that allow open PvP with harsh system of consequences for said behavior. I believe in risk/reward gameplay. Being a murderous thief should come at great risk. You should be deprived of access to civilized society, rely on other means to make a living. People should really find themselves thinking twice about the consequences of their actions. To me, that is meaningful PvP. I am hoping Elyria Gets this aspect right.
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lowrads
UncommonPosts: 200
I think more people dislike a lack of narrative than the statistical exercise that makes up most of forms of player competition. They don't mind getting into conflict with other players, but they want to have a clear reason not just for conflict, but for conflict with that specific player or small group of players.
Just attacking whatever is there doesn't register with a lot of people, and they aren't going to empathize with players for whom this is sufficient. Even if they come out on top, it doesn't feel like an accomplishment, but rather just another chore undertaken in a losing war against entropy. Real victory involves something else to them. When they don't care about the win, then they don't care about the losses either, so the whole situation becomes tedious and predictable.
Ganking or unfair tactics hasn't been an unusual situations since the earlist chimpanzee squads started hunting other lone chimps. It's just something to overcome through preparation and player organization. Even animals need a reason to attack things, whether for food, territory or mate competition. Species tend to avoid other species that don't interact with their own ecological niche if they are neither potential prey or competition.
The real core problems of poor virtual worlds are poor virtual ecologies.
Answers
... and the 1,000,000+ PvE vs PvP threads that have been posted ad nauseum over the past decade in every PvE game that features PvP, and every gaming forum, hasn't made that answer clear enough that we need to start yet another "troll infested in the making" thread on the subject?
Your answer is everywhere on the internet and probably the most pre-eminent subject matter regarding gaming since the inception of gaming. Google is your friend.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
It's like saying I hate PvEers because they're all ninja-looters.
Also that's just people in general being asshats.
Camel's points number 2 and number 4 are my biggest irritation with PvP. I take losing to a live player much harder than I do to an NPC. Also I've found that my success in PvP is somewhere in the 25% range. That leaves 75% of the time filled with irritation.
I also hate when MMO devs try to balance PvE and PvP together. This destroys any CC in the game which in turn destroys PvE tactics and interesting combat.
I retired retroactively..Haha
1) i'm new, I got killed, and respawn. The ganker is waiting and kills me before I can move, so I respawn. The ganker kills me before I can move, so I ... uninstall.
2) I played up to level 50, and entered the PvP zone and fought to take over a keep. 80 of us attacked and defeated the 50 defenders. I love PvP and DAOC!
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
You probably got killed because someone wanted your grind spot. If they killed you at low HP it's because they saw an opportunity and they took it, trying to play smart, not hard.
PvP in an OwPvP game is war. It's not a consensual duel where it's all sunshine and rainbows and fairness. PvP in OwPvP is usually not fair - it's not supposed to be fair. If you want structure and balance, play in an Arena or Battleground, or duel another player. But OwPvP is an entirely different type of gameplay and it's about banding together to dominate in an unending war. War in real life is not fair, either - you take what advantages you can get. Catching the enemy off guard is a great way to do that.
Playing smart is a skill. You'd be dumb not to take such an opportunity if it earns you a win, and most PvPers in that situation would do the same. This even applies to structured PVP like BGs and Arenas - is someone busy casting on a flag to claim it, or stuck in a long animation, or did somebody just come by and get them to low HP and then die? Great, I'll interrupt that flag cast and get in a bunch of damage before they can react, or I'll get off damage before they can get out of that animation, or I'll finish off that low HP person because I can - the other player needs to be skilled enough to prepare for those situations and react accordingly. That's what PvP is all about.
It doesn't mean he's an asshole, and it doesn't give you a right to hate him and talk shit about him. It's just the nature of OwPvP and he's playing as intended. You are free to not like it, but it doesn't mean PvPers are bad people. It just means you are misunderstanding the nature of the game.
PvPers think and feel about these situations differently than PVEers. It's a completely different mindset and you need to understand that. It doesn't make PvPers bad people, it just means you don't understand and you dislike it and that's ok. But you, and every other PvEer that so vehemently hates PvP, need to learn to take the emotions out of it.
There's not a corresponding mechanism where a PvE player can 'force' another player into their style of play. A role player can't give someone an e-beer and force them to sit around in a tavern for an hour listening to a bard. Players can't force others to group up to kill a mob and can't force another to engage them in a verbal debate or help corner the market on Wolf Spleens.
PvP is non-cooperative; PvE is cooperative. It's a chaos versus order thing, and I know where my preference is.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Blizzard released this infographic recently and it states that there are 900K PVE instances started every day and 670K PVP instances started every day across their servers. So even in WoW, PVP isn't as small a segment as the pure PVE'ers would have you believe.