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Convenience can be the enemy of interaction

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited June 2016
    Arclan said:
    Vanguard was a phenomenal game, and, I imagine, the quests were super interesting.  BUT, no one read them that I know of.  
    1. Click on NPC
    2. Scroll to bottom of quest text, sometimes numerous pages
    3. Click accept
    4. Pull up quest journal for itemized collect/kill/harvest tasks.
    5. Complete quest for monty haul xp rewards

    I'm hoping quests in Pantheon require the user to interact (type) with the NPC such as was done in Everquest.  And hoping quest xp is not so monty haul such the only thing anyone cares about it completing their quests.
    ...or more sensibly you make nice cut scenes and/or voice overs to unfold the story and get player engaged.

    But forcing players into even less convenient interaction is also solution, people love to be forced to do annoying tasks they have no desire for.
    Post edited by Gdemami on
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    If you want to have a story conveyed in a multiplayer game - you need to be smart about it.

    Personally, I think the best way to convey a story is ANYTHING but forced delivery. As in, if you force people to stop in their tracks and listen to quest exposition, when all they want to do is have fun together, you ruin the flow of the game.

    Ideally, you want quality voice acting - and you want to deliver it without stopping the game - and in such a way that you can go back and listen to it again, should you need to.

    Also, I liked how SWtOR involved all party members during quest dialogue - but it was slow and needlessly verbose most of the time.

    A similar system where you can all participate - which does not force you into a locked cutscene - with more to-the-point dialogue and faster responses would be a great way to involve people in the story, should they wish to, but without interrupting the flow of the game needlessly.

    One idea is to have one party member engage the NPC - and then a quick vote would pop up requesting all party members to vote on "accept quest without NPC interaction" or "interact with NPC". If the party members agree to accept quest - then they could continue without interruption, but the actual NPC story delivery could be launched at any time in a separate window (without interaction) - when exposition would be convenient. If members voted to interact - then it would be more like SWtOR - only faster and without a locked cutscene, meaning you could interact with the UI while participating.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    I see no point in quests where you don't actually interact with an NPC. That defeats the purpose, as does trivial task dialogue windows.

    Quests should mean something, and should involve actual decisions. That is the route VR is taking with Pantheon. If you don't want to do a quest because you're with other people, then don't. Automating the process is not the answer.


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    Dullahan said:
    I see no point in quests where you don't actually interact with an NPC. That defeats the purpose, as does trivial task dialogue windows.

    Quests should mean something, and should involve actual decisions. That is the route VR is taking with Pantheon. If you don't want to do a quest because you're with other people, then don't. Automating the process is not the answer.
    I think you missed the part where you could do the quest with full interaction if you wanted to.

    I'm talking about a way to experience the story without interrupting the flow of the game - and it would be optional.

    Is there some reason you feel you have the authority to tell people they shouldn't be able to do that if they want to?
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    DKLond said:
    Dullahan said:
    I see no point in quests where you don't actually interact with an NPC. That defeats the purpose, as does trivial task dialogue windows.

    Quests should mean something, and should involve actual decisions. That is the route VR is taking with Pantheon. If you don't want to do a quest because you're with other people, then don't. Automating the process is not the answer.
    I think you missed the part where you could do the quest with full interaction if you wanted to.

    I'm talking about a way to experience the story without interrupting the flow of the game - and it would be optional.

    Is there some reason you feel you have the authority to tell people they shouldn't be able to do that if they want to?
    Is there a reason you want to perpetuate bad game design where quests don't really matter and you can speed through dialogs to preserve some elusive "flow of the game."

    You are talking about streamlining an important feature based on how it works in your run of the mill themepark. Pantheon isn't about quest progression, so quests won't be something you constantly deal with ad infinitum so that players need an easy way to accept them and move on.

    Quest or don't quest, but Pantheon isn't taking the busy-work approach to questing.


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    Dullahan said:
    DKLond said:
    Dullahan said:
    I see no point in quests where you don't actually interact with an NPC. That defeats the purpose, as does trivial task dialogue windows.

    Quests should mean something, and should involve actual decisions. That is the route VR is taking with Pantheon. If you don't want to do a quest because you're with other people, then don't. Automating the process is not the answer.
    I think you missed the part where you could do the quest with full interaction if you wanted to.

    I'm talking about a way to experience the story without interrupting the flow of the game - and it would be optional.

    Is there some reason you feel you have the authority to tell people they shouldn't be able to do that if they want to?
    Is there a reason you want to perpetuate bad game design where quests don't really matter and you can speed through dialogs to preserve some elusive "flow of the game."

    You are talking about streamlining an important feature based on how it works in your run of the mill themepark. Pantheon isn't about quest progression, so quests won't be something you constantly deal with ad infinitum so that players need an easy way to accept them and move on.

    Quest or don't quest, but Pantheon isn't taking the busy-work approach to questing.
    No, that's not what I'm doing.

    I'm presenting an opinion without confusing the message with my opinion of your opinion.

    If you think quests are too important to be optional in terms of the delivery of story - then that's cool, but you're only embarassing yourself if you think your opinion must be universal and the opinion of others must be suppressed.

    It doesn't matter if the game has one quest or a thousand quests. The option to skip interaction to preserve the flow of the game would still benefit people who want that option.

    If you think forcing a group of people to interact with NPCs if that's not what they're in the mood for is good game design, that's cool too - but I disagree.

    Now, are you able to accept that your opinion doesn't have to be objective truth?
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    DKLond said:
    Dullahan said:
    DKLond said:
    Dullahan said:
    I see no point in quests where you don't actually interact with an NPC. That defeats the purpose, as does trivial task dialogue windows.

    Quests should mean something, and should involve actual decisions. That is the route VR is taking with Pantheon. If you don't want to do a quest because you're with other people, then don't. Automating the process is not the answer.
    I think you missed the part where you could do the quest with full interaction if you wanted to.

    I'm talking about a way to experience the story without interrupting the flow of the game - and it would be optional.

    Is there some reason you feel you have the authority to tell people they shouldn't be able to do that if they want to?
    Is there a reason you want to perpetuate bad game design where quests don't really matter and you can speed through dialogs to preserve some elusive "flow of the game."

    You are talking about streamlining an important feature based on how it works in your run of the mill themepark. Pantheon isn't about quest progression, so quests won't be something you constantly deal with ad infinitum so that players need an easy way to accept them and move on.

    Quest or don't quest, but Pantheon isn't taking the busy-work approach to questing.
    No, that's not what I'm doing.

    I'm presenting an opinion without confusing the message with my opinion of your opinion.

    If you think quests are too important to be optional in terms of the delivery of story - then that's cool, but you're only embarassing yourself if you think your opinion must be universal and the opinion of others must be suppressed.

    It doesn't matter if the game has one quest or a thousand quests. The option to skip interaction to preserve the flow of the game would still benefit people who want that option.

    If you think forcing a group of people to interact with NPCs if that's not what they're in the mood for is good game design, that's cool too - but I disagree.

    Now, are you able to accept that your opinion doesn't have to be objective truth?
    You seem to be mistaking actual knowledge and information about Pantheon as my personal opinion. I was merely pointing out that your opinion (which is perfectly valid) may not be as relevant to Pantheon as it is in other games with questing.

    Here is a bit of info about questing in Pantheon.


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited June 2016
    Dullahan said:
    DKLond said:
    Dullahan said:
    DKLond said:
    Dullahan said:
    I see no point in quests where you don't actually interact with an NPC. That defeats the purpose, as does trivial task dialogue windows.

    Quests should mean something, and should involve actual decisions. That is the route VR is taking with Pantheon. If you don't want to do a quest because you're with other people, then don't. Automating the process is not the answer.
    I think you missed the part where you could do the quest with full interaction if you wanted to.

    I'm talking about a way to experience the story without interrupting the flow of the game - and it would be optional.

    Is there some reason you feel you have the authority to tell people they shouldn't be able to do that if they want to?
    Is there a reason you want to perpetuate bad game design where quests don't really matter and you can speed through dialogs to preserve some elusive "flow of the game."

    You are talking about streamlining an important feature based on how it works in your run of the mill themepark. Pantheon isn't about quest progression, so quests won't be something you constantly deal with ad infinitum so that players need an easy way to accept them and move on.

    Quest or don't quest, but Pantheon isn't taking the busy-work approach to questing.
    No, that's not what I'm doing.

    I'm presenting an opinion without confusing the message with my opinion of your opinion.

    If you think quests are too important to be optional in terms of the delivery of story - then that's cool, but you're only embarassing yourself if you think your opinion must be universal and the opinion of others must be suppressed.

    It doesn't matter if the game has one quest or a thousand quests. The option to skip interaction to preserve the flow of the game would still benefit people who want that option.

    If you think forcing a group of people to interact with NPCs if that's not what they're in the mood for is good game design, that's cool too - but I disagree.

    Now, are you able to accept that your opinion doesn't have to be objective truth?
    You seem to be mistaking actual knowledge and information about Pantheon as my personal opinion. I was merely pointing out that your opinion (which is perfectly valid) may not be as relevant to Pantheon as it is in other games with questing.

    Here is a bit of info about questing in Pantheon.
    As I said, my opinion isn't about Pantheon specifically - but about how I think story can and should be delivered in a multiplayer game - in general.

    If the idea is bad or unwanted from the perspective of the developers, I have no problem with that.

    But that doesn't mean it's objectively bad - or that Pantheon quest delivery is objectively good.

    The OP talked about how quests are skipped in most MMOs - and how convenience can be a problem.

    I responded with how I think there's a way to deliver story AND be convenient.

    There's a reason the vast majority of groups tend to skip quest exposition in the vast majority of MMOs.
  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Dullahan said:
    Here is a bit of info about questing in Pantheon.
    I'm really looking forward to these systems.

    That said, the dialogue trees have me a _little_ wary.  Specifically the branching, mutually-exclusive, consequence-filled, permanent dialogue.  I understand that this is exactly what will encourage players to fully participate in quests, rather than click through mindlessly, and I appreciate that aspect.  But the completionist/perfectionist in me doesn't want to miss out on a good quest because I picked the wrong dialogue choice.  

    The perception system should help with this.  Like the article said, it should give clues to the outcome.  And still, I would rather have permanent dialogue choices than vending machine NPCs.  

    What is the consensus on quest journals and the convenience-vs-interaction debate.  Like @Arclan said, in other MMOs many players will just click through dialogue until they have a neatly itemized list of fetch quests in their journal.  Would it be better to get rid of quest journals and encourage players to literally write things down on a physical notepad while they play?  Or perhaps have a quest journal that is only a word pad and needs to be manually updated? 

    I think that kind of journal would fit well with Pantheon's design philosophy, but I could also see a lot of backlash from players who expect this convenience feature.  Maybe a compromise would be a journal that includes VERY basic information such as "I talked to Soandso in W.Freeport about helping him with his rat problem".  
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Scumm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Here is a bit of info about questing in Pantheon.
    I'm really looking forward to these systems.

    That said, the dialogue trees have me a _little_ wary.  Specifically the branching, mutually-exclusive, consequence-filled, permanent dialogue.  I understand that this is exactly what will encourage players to fully participate in quests, rather than click through mindlessly, and I appreciate that aspect.  But the completionist/perfectionist in me doesn't want to miss out on a good quest because I picked the wrong dialogue choice.  

    The perception system should help with this.  Like the article said, it should give clues to the outcome.  And still, I would rather have permanent dialogue choices than vending machine NPCs.  

    What is the consensus on quest journals and the convenience-vs-interaction debate.  Like @Arclan said, in other MMOs many players will just click through dialogue until they have a neatly itemized list of fetch quests in their journal.  Would it be better to get rid of quest journals and encourage players to literally write things down on a physical notepad while they play?  Or perhaps have a quest journal that is only a word pad and needs to be manually updated? 

    I think that kind of journal would fit well with Pantheon's design philosophy, but I could also see a lot of backlash from players who expect this convenience feature.  Maybe a compromise would be a journal that includes VERY basic information such as "I talked to Soandso in W.Freeport about helping him with his rat problem".  
    I think there should totally be a quest journal. I think you should be able to review exactly what took place in your discussions with npcs regarding quests. Actually, I hope the Journal in Pantheon covers more than just quests.

    If I were designing a "Journal", I'd have it track every NPC you interact with. What you know about them, where they reside, trade and class, conversations I've had, the factions they align with etc. For mob races, information like where you've encountered them, any backstory you've learned, racial or faction goals, leaders of their people/government, and lesser things like usual classes, resistances to dmg or magic, and so on and so forth.

    Generally I don't like "Achievements Systems", but you could unlock information in the form of achievements by simply playing the game, exploring different places, talking to npcs, fighting different people, completing quests, etc. Instead of achievements just being something you complete for bragging rights or experience, it becomes a Tome of Knowledge about the world that you can actually refer to help you better play the game.


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Scumm said: in other MMOs many players will just click through dialogue until they have a neatly itemized list of fetch quests in their journal. Would it be better to get rid of quest journals and encourage players to literally write things down on a physical notepad while they play?
    If players are not even bothering to read quest dialogues, do you seriously think forcing them to make even more effort will work...?
  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Dullahan said:
    I think there should totally be a quest journal...
    I like your ideas.  Having a summary of your interaction with an NPC or a POI would be a nice medium.  Something along the lines of "I was resting in a cabin in EC and thought I heard strange noises under the floorboards".  If you didn't investigate at the time, you would know to come back later and check it out.  

    Also, I like the idea of having EVERY interaction recorded, not just the quest-granting ones.  If only the quests appear in your journal, it becomes a grocery list.  This is similar to the discussion in the article itself.  Some people were suggesting that the Perception system should activate all the time, not just for quests.  Otherwise it's in danger of being a quest-marker "!" of a different flavor.  

    Gdemami said:
    If players are not even bothering to read quest dialogues, do you seriously think forcing them to make even more effort will work...?
    I think it's something worth considering, especially for a game like Pantheon that values immersion.  I'm not trying to suggest that this is a fully-formed proposal, just throwing around ideas.  The name of this thread is "Convenience can be the enemy of interaction" after all.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Scumm said: I think it's something worth considering
    No, it isn't.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    DKLond said:

    There's a reason the vast majority of groups tend to skip quest exposition in the vast majority of MMOs.
    In my first mmo, EQ, I hung on ever word of quest dialogue. Not because it was better than dialogue I encountered in other games since (sometimes it was and sometimes it wasn't), but because it was fresh and new to me then. Now, a dozen games and a bazillion quests later, it gets harder and harder to make that effort. Count me in for nearly anything that will enliven the process. Voices, interactive choices, nudity - whatever. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    Forcing players to read badly written dialogue is a bad design decision.  It should be the player's choice.  If they like the text they can read it, and if they think it is awful they shouldnt be forced to read it.

    Make them read it by making them want to read it.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    svann said:
    Forcing players to read badly written dialogue is a bad design decision.  It should be the player's choice.  If they like the text they can read it, and if they think it is awful they shouldnt be forced to read it.

    Make them read it by making them want to read it.
    Yup, that is why we have voice-overs and cut-scenes - to make dialogues more appealing.

    No point peeing against the wind.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    I also hope it is true that choices you make in pursuing quests will matter. And maybe they mean simply the degree of quest reward.

    But I have always had this dream that someday something will  happen late in the game that was influenced by my decision to stop and help an orphan boy back at level 3. 

    But that has never happened. So far, my end game experiences by and large have been wholly uninfluenced by things I did in early game or in mid-game. I'll bet someone could conjure up an example otherwise, but I am speaking on balance. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • SyanisSyanis Member UncommonPosts: 140
    RPGers like a story of sorts, it can be a blast. But for an MMORPG I think it kind of changes things up. A bit of story can be nice but the game itself shouldn't be a written story. Players need the ability to play how they want, when they want, and where they want w/o being lead through a story along the way. Players want to feel their own adventure and it may have a story involved in bits or not but the real story is the player sort of creating their own story as the play even though they may not be thinking of it that way.

    Think of pen and paper D&D. How boring would that be with a written out story that really had no options for deviation and where the GM really just sat monitoring the dice rolls rather than creating stuff from thin air as the players screw up the GMs plans. It would be boring as heck and worth 1 play through IF the story is really good but that is it... forever.

    SWTOR was the game known for an awesome story. Its thing was it was Star Wars, you had Jedi, and you had Sith. If you took away the Star Wars and connection than it really right there falls apart. The gameplay wasn't anything great, crafting was crap, and it would have bombed.

    But look at every great we have had. Which one of those really guides the players along or tells them what to do and where to go? EQ didn't, WoW classic just pointed at best to the next level range area, DAoC didn't, EQ2 also just sort of pointed to the next range area as well. You made your own adventure and you weren't ever stuck in a story.

    Hence I'd say throw in a few quests and a few short stories maybe revolving around a dungeon and make those quests mean something along with being difficult. Players don't really care why some random NPC wants them to kill 10 baby wolves, then 15 adult wolves, and then 25 dire wolves. Then can't forget the raid boss *Uber Wolf God*.... The game shouldn't be quest start to finish and quests shouldn't even be 1/4 of what your doing. They should maybe be 1/10th of the game and extras but with special rewards.
  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550
    edited June 2016
    Scumm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Here is a bit of info about questing in Pantheon.
    I'm really looking forward to these systems.

    That said, the dialogue trees have me a _little_ wary.  Specifically the branching, mutually-exclusive, consequence-filled, permanent dialogue.  I understand that this is exactly what will encourage players to fully participate in quests, rather than click through mindlessly, and I appreciate that aspect.  But the completionist/perfectionist in me doesn't want to miss out on a good quest because I picked the wrong dialogue choice.  

    The perception system should help with this.  Like the article said, it should give clues to the outcome.  And still, I would rather have permanent dialogue choices than vending machine NPCs.  

    What is the consensus on quest journals and the convenience-vs-interaction debate.  Like @Arclan said, in other MMOs many players will just click through dialogue until they have a neatly itemized list of fetch quests in their journal.  Would it be better to get rid of quest journals and encourage players to literally write things down on a physical notepad while they play?  Or perhaps have a quest journal that is only a word pad and needs to be manually updated? 

    I think that kind of journal would fit well with Pantheon's design philosophy, but I could also see a lot of backlash from players who expect this convenience feature.  Maybe a compromise would be a journal that includes VERY basic information such as "I talked to Soandso in W.Freeport about helping him with his rat problem".  
    Each point @Scumm raised is one in which I share the same opinion.

    1. Delighted that quests in Pantheon are more substantive and not click-through xp crack.
    2. Not wanting to be penalized based on choices I make during quest dialogue.
    3. Feeling that forcing the player to keep track of quest details not only increases the sense of ownership the player has in their character; but also causes entire web site communities to spring up.  Long live Alakhazams, Ever Lore, Zan Fi Monks, and all those other great sites (feel free to list any that come to mind).

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550
    Folks pushing for convenience are kidding themselves if they think the quest delivery and dialogue have any bearing on whether players will read or click-through.  When xp and rewards are involved, people will *always* click-through.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited June 2016
    Arclan said:
    Folks pushing for convenience are kidding themselves if they think the quest delivery and dialogue have any bearing on whether players will read or click-through.  When xp and rewards are involved, people will *always* click-through.
    That is why there is inreasing amount of cutscenes in games over the last years, because devs like to waste resources, right?
    Post edited by Gdemami on
  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    centkin said:
    You missed the good times then -- Vanguard was best in beta. 
    Funny you say that.  That's when I stopped playing. 

    It was fantastic in alpha when there was 5-20 people online at any time (including devs) and general chat was world wide and everyone knew each other.  Then early beta came and it was still fine, still fun, but the sense of a tight community wasn't as close once they shut off world chat and made it only zone wide.

    Then they opened the beta flood gates...and added ridiculous tombstones that littered the ground and seemed to clog up the world.  I know that got changed eventually, but the tombstones are what primarily drove me away.  The tombstones were horrible for awhile.  Add them to the flood of new people who had never played before who were creating thousands of tombstones everywhere.  It wasn't a good situation.


    Fine -- early beta then.  I don't consider "playtest" as beta anyway.  Beta is when the devs are still active and you have Wawker Thestwian Wanger popping in to play with the testers, and what you say means something.

    The transition to meh was complete when SOE took over and nearly complete when they made the energy system the same as the mana system.  Before that you could spam skill paths forever with a disciple and it was fun.

  • RallydRallyd Member UncommonPosts: 95
    edited June 2016
    Gdemami said:
    svann said:
    Forcing players to read badly written dialogue is a bad design decision.  It should be the player's choice.  If they like the text they can read it, and if they think it is awful they shouldnt be forced to read it.

    Make them read it by making them want to read it.
    Yup, that is why we have voice-overs and cut-scenes - to make dialogues more appealing.

    No point peeing against the wind.
    I personally don't find voice-overs and cut-scenes to be the cure to badly written dialogue.  Bad writing is bad writing, it doesn't matter what you do to spice it up, in the end it's still bad writing.

    Voice-overs and cut-scenes are great and all, but I'd rather take the ridiculous amount of money that those 2 things cost, and invest them into better writers.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited June 2016
    Rallyd said:
    I personally don't find voice-overs and cut-scenes to be the cure to badly written dialogue.
    It is not a cure.

    People just won't read walls of text, regardless how well written. Period.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,466
    edited June 2016
    Lol, the person who said " no one intereacted with npc in EQ" is talking shit. You had no choice but to read the whole conversation. OK you we're e looking for key words but you still read the whole script, not like today's mmo's where you just click through and say yes. 

    I'm talking quest npc's of which there was only a few.




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