Really? People still can't let SWG go? What's it been 5 or 6 years now? No offense but it would be scary as hell to know what some of these bitter Swg vets would do if they got dumped by an actual person in a real life relationship....I mean they can't even get over a video game after 5 years...
Tell that to the people that still play PONG in 2016 (seen as recently as two weeks ago during a game show).
Really? People still can't let SWG go? What's it been 5 or 6 years now? No offense but it would be scary as hell to know what some of these bitter Swg vets would do if they got dumped by an actual person in a real life relationship....I mean they can't even get over a video game after 5 years...
Tell that to the people that still play PONG in 2016 (seen as recently as two weeks ago during a game show).
I never understood the 'X vs Y' way of thinking. It just didn't make sense. Why not both? Or why not neither? If I like apples, why do I have to hate oranges? Hang on... I don't hate oranges. I like oranges.
/divide by zero error
For me personally, as a fan of star wars and of MMORPGs, I long for the "perfect" Star Wars MMORPG.
So, whenever these arguments come up, I voice my opinion that SWG (pre-cu) was better than SW:TOR in the hopes that a future SW MMO will be more like SWG and less like SW:TOR. Given the outrage during development, the terrible launch, the plummeting userbase shortly after launch, the financial failure of the game (until f2p switch) and the continuing scorn from the "core" playerbase, I'd hope that the message has gotten through to Bioware / Disney so that this sort of mistake doesn't happen again in the future.
Of course you can enjoy both, I played both and actually played TOR for longer than SWG, despite liking SWG far better. It also doesn't make any difference if you like both, because only 1 is out at the moment so it's not as if we're affecting the bottom dollar. I eventually quit SW:TOR after it became clear the developers were never going to improve their game, but instead continue to churn out shallow, repetitive, dull content. My emails to Bioware, posts on official forums and in depth analysis of content / systems whilst I was a subscriber fell on deaf ears so voting with my wallet was all I had left that I could do.
If we really are dreaming then I rather have something that at least feels a little like watching the movies when you play....
Less focus on adding MMO features and mor on trying to bring the movies alive in a game. Both SWG and TOR failed there. I am not saying that either games didn't have their good points but both kinda made me feel like they decided the mechanics first and then added SW over it instead of the other way around.
A SW MMO shouldn't be played like any other MMO (be that UO or Wow), it should be customized specifically to bring the IP to life. Let us do what the heroes do in the movies and skip stuff that don't belong there.
This is a tough one.
Do you want to bring the Star Wars universe to life? Or do you want players to have similar experiences to the movies?
The first one is possible and is what SWG aimed for. It tried to bring the world to life in a semi-realistic way, but what it lacked was scale and purpose. The Galactic Civil War was supposed to be the ever-present backdrop to the game and that is what should have provided the iconic Star Wars experiences, but in reality we just had the 2 themeparks to play through then a bit of pvp.
The second, giving players movie-like experiences, is much better suited to single player games. The only time I've seen it work properly is when everyone can contribute to or participate in hero-like experiences, but isn't the hero. In the Star Wars setting, rather than being Luke blowing up the Death Star, it'd be better if we could be one of the other pilots, making our attempts and helping protect others, or being Chewie and Han helping out in their own way.
When thinking about bringing the universe to life, SWG didn't do too bad. I think tech was a big restriction. For example, heading out of town into the sand dunes of tattooine felt great. I personally felt the isolation, felt like I was in a desert and still enjoyed just riding about, exploring the odd cave etc. On planets with more flora, the tech struggled. Endor, for example, was still good fun to explore but the tech prevented the dense foliage you'd expect. Same thing with towns and cities. The style of everything that was there seemed correct (although a little bit too grid like layouts) however, there just wasn't enough. It was missing the finishing touches, like more NPCs, garbage etc.
SW:TOR, on the other hand, sucked all round. For a start, the small, linear zones killed the experience right from the get go. Star Wars is BIG, with massive locations in all the films but that feeling was missing. It also suffered from being too "clean", whereas the original films were all quite dirty sets (i.e. realistic). Then, it didn't even give you movie-like experiences. I played a Jedi-Shadow, but troopers with a gun were my equal?!?!? I know they had to balance it for mechanical reasons, but it destroyed the IP. Then, the cartoon graphics....another killer.
In my opinion, we need to take the concept of SWG (sandbox, make your own destiny) but offer more tools / systems to allow the emergence of SW moments. So, for example, perhaps let guilds for alliances and let them club together to create ridiculous things. Let guilds / alliances actually build AT-ATs or even death stars (seeing as how they are built by factories / normal men anyway) and let us use them to create our own experiences. Or, let us craft pop-racers and let users / town mayors setup courses and create player events etc.
I mean there are literally people in that game, who can't figure out how to do a 4 man group.......... And I don't mean a minority, almost every group, you will have some one that can't figure out what to do.
Keep seeing a lot of people trying to imply that if you played swg you are somehow more prepared to play an mmo in general. Let me say this to that:
There are people in every mmo who can't figure out what to do in a group. Please dont pretend as if SWTOR is the only mmo where you have people that can't figure out what to do in a group setting. During SWG's time there were also groups with people who didn't know what to do.
What are you talking about..
Sometimes you can go weeks without finding a competent group in these types of games, it's just how it is.
My advice for you, is to stop using LFG tools. Its lazy and if you do use that tool in any mmo dont cry about having fail groups because you were too lazy to put together a competent one before hand or join a guild that is helpful like that.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
FOr me SWTOR failed....If it had been launched as a single player game I probably wouldnt have had any issue with it, but they kept trying to tell us its an MMO when it isnt.
Please explain how it failed?
The game is far from failure actually from what I'm seeing. Rough start? sure. Fail? I wouldn't reach.
Your opinions of whether or not it's an mmo has nothing to do with SWTOR being a failure.
Please provide links to SWTOR's failure. Please give us your definition of a failure game.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Really? People still can't let SWG go? What's it been 5 or 6 years now? No offense but it would be scary as hell to know what some of these bitter Swg vets would do if they got dumped by an actual person in a real life relationship....I mean they can't even get over a video game after 5 years...
Tell that to the people that still play PONG in 2016 (seen as recently as two weeks ago during a game show).
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
There was an NGE because they were unhappy with the sub numbers compared to the new juggernaut WOW.
For the time 200k subs was something most games would have loved to claim. And around 200k was what they were down to by the time the NGE launched. Granted the CU had already caused a minor exodus.
Let me put it this way, you can't compare numbers or figures from pre 2005 and post 2005 for the purposes of success. The markets aren't similar. PC saturation is different. High speed internet penetration is different.
The numbers were not growing. They were losing numbers. They shouldn't have been happy about that. But keep the wow lie alive.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Like many have said here, SWTOR and SWG aren't apples and oranges, I prefer the storytelling style of Bioware more (but that's just what I like) Both at times feel out of place and both at times missed "The Star Wars Feel" of the movies.
I want to touch on that too. This is a major point a lot of people in the thread are missing.
Out of both games the only one that was supposed to feel like the films was "SWG."
SWTOR is based on KOTOR video games and EU canon beforehand. Basically it's a game based on the EU.
SWG is heavily based on the films and it's obvious just look at the box art (for you geezers)
Out of the two .. for my money TOR nailed what they were going for as far as feel. They were not trying to remake the film material, they had more creativity to play with because the whole thing is based on EU.
SO when people say, "Star Wars Experience" think about what you are saying here. SWG did not capture the magic of the films, and neither did SWTOR so what experience are we talking about as Star Wars fans?
SWTOR captured the EU feel perfectly if you ask me. From the horrible fashion choices, to the main characters we see in game. (Read the comics it's all in there!)
Combined with the writing of Bioware and you have something that is doing what it was supposed to do which was capture the fans of the EU KOTOR.
SWG had this huge sandbox where you can pretty much do anything and create your own story with your friends. But again there is a huge wall behind the most iconic "Star Wars" moments. Some people wanted that, some did not. Outside of it being a HUGE sandbox, I dont see how it captures any of the magic of the films. It was for sure supposed to because Darth Vader is on the box art (flip it over), also there is an xpac named after Obi Wan. SWG was selling you on having a movie experience in a sandbox. They got the sandbox part right but that's it.
So again, when it comes to which is better to me it's which made me feel like this is star wars the most?
For me it's SWTOR. No it's not the movie stuff but it was never supposed to be. It's EU. They nailed that.
It felt so epic when my Jedi Knight got his first Lightsaber and they showed him using the force to put it together.. I did not care that 1mil other people just did that, ALL MMOShave that.. it was just cool to me because before that point, I always wondered about how Jedi actually attained their lightsabers. It was a very cool "Star Wars" moment.
Again apples and oranges. Both games had moments when "This doesn't feel like star wars" hits you, but the one that had more of those epic "Ahh this is it" moments for ME was SWTOR.
Post edited by klash2def on
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
At the discretion of the moderator and/or the Community Manager, the following infractions will be classed as either minor or major infractions and appropriate penalties will be applied.
Unofficial Servers
Discussing or advertising unofficial servers or emulators for MMOs is not permitted on the MMORPG.com forums. These servers are against the Terms of Service of the original game, and violate the intellectual propriety rights of the game's publisher and developer.
You must have missed the memo where MMORPG.com added an entire forum specifically for discussion of private/emulated servers.
It's okay little policeman, we'll forgive you for doing such a poor job of investigating. You're obviously a rookie.
The launch version of SWG held no appeal to me. If they had put in X Wing vs. Tie Fighter type space battles at launch I would have been sold. I believe they also made becoming a jedi randomized which was stupid as hell.
The launch version of SWG held no appeal to me. If they had put in X Wing vs. Tie Fighter type space battles at launch I would have been sold. I believe they also made becoming a jedi randomized which was stupid as hell.
Well it wasn't exactly random but it was behind a huge wall of skills you had to learn before you could even entertain the idea.
I do agree. Stupid idea. We wanted to experience the films with this one, which means immediately being able to play a Jedi.. they botched that for me.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Some developers failed to realize that the ability to max out several characters is much more appealing then making one character take forever. Sure would like to try that class but who wants to spill another 1k hours into the game.
Outside of it being a HUGE sandbox, I dont see how it captures any of the magic of the films. It was for sure supposed to because Darth Vader is on the box art (flip it over), also there is an xpac named after Obi Wan. SWG was selling you on having a movie experience in a sandbox. They got the sandbox part right but that's it.
You missed the PVE raids on Imp/Rebel bases you could do. Also Darth Vader wasn't only on the box, he'd also land in his shuttle, off load's a load of ST and the Fight Was On.
There were a number of little things; the locations, some of the NPC's, the whole cantina atmosphere.
I think the biggest factor for picking come's down to the age of the person. For us older folk - we grew up on the original trilogy. For the younger it was the EU version. Heck when KOTOR came out I had to have my kids explain it to me as I'd never heard of it. SWTOR was the same.
Outside of it being a HUGE sandbox, I dont see how it captures any of the magic of the films. It was for sure supposed to because Darth Vader is on the box art (flip it over), also there is an xpac named after Obi Wan. SWG was selling you on having a movie experience in a sandbox. They got the sandbox part right but that's it.
You missed the PVE raids on Imp/Rebel bases you could do. Also Darth Vader wasn't only on the box, he'd also land in his shuttle, off load's a load of ST and the Fight Was On.
There were a number of little things; the locations, some of the NPC's, the whole cantina atmosphere.
I think the biggest factor for picking come's down to the age of the person. For us older folk - we grew up on the original trilogy. For the younger it was the EU version. Heck when KOTOR came out I had to have my kids explain it to me as I'd never heard of it. SWTOR was the same.
I agree with you, I'm 30 yrs old. I wasn't alive when the OG films came out but I did see them, but after I started reading the EU material. I saw Episode IV around 1997-98 for the first time. By then I was more than half way through the Anderson and Veitch series.
I grew up in the 90s-early 2000s so I did see the early 2k's films although to me they were not better than the older original ones. I really got into the entire universe by way of the comic books. The films did not have all this extra depth to it outside of the skywalker family so to me the comics provided a level of star wars mythology that the films never did.
Which is why I lean more towards to TOR game vs SWG only because to me they nailed the EU a bit more than SWG nailed the films.
The EU has far more depth and creativity than the films because let's face it, the films are 1D and only have 1 family/story involved. There should be thousands of stories in this universe which is the appeal of star wars for me personally.
There are other stories/families that would make amazing games/films but The Old Republic stuff fit what bioware was trying to do perfectly.
I do agree though, it has a lot to do with the age range of the fan who is experiencing the game. My star wars fandom came mostly via the EU comics so if I could break it down it looks like this:
70% EU Comics/Books 15% Original Trilogy 10% KOTOR Video Games 5% Early 2000's Trilogy
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Like many have said here, SWTOR and SWG aren't apples and oranges, I prefer the storytelling style of Bioware more (but that's just what I like) Both at times feel out of place and both at times missed "The Star Wars Feel" of the movies.
I want to touch on that too. This is a major point a lot of people in the thread are missing.
Out of both games the only one that was supposed to feel like the films was "SWG."
SWTOR is based on KOTOR video games and EU canon beforehand. Basically it's a game based on the EU.
SWG is heavily based on the films and it's obvious just look at the box art (for you geezers)
Out of the two .. for my money TOR nailed what they were going for as far as feel. They were not trying to remake the film material, they had more creativity to play with because the whole thing is based on EU.
SO when people say, "Star Wars Experience" think about what you are saying here. SWG did not capture the magic of the films, and neither did SWTOR so what experience are we talking about as Star Wars fans?
SWTOR captured the EU feel perfectly if you ask me. From the horrible fashion choices, to the main characters we see in game. (Read the comics it's all in there!)
Combined with the writing of Bioware and you have something that is doing what it was supposed to do which was capture the fans of the EU KOTOR.
SWG had this huge sandbox where you can pretty much do anything and create your own story with your friends. But again there is a huge wall behind the most iconic "Star Wars" moments. Some people wanted that, some did not. Outside of it being a HUGE sandbox, I dont see how it captures any of the magic of the films. It was for sure supposed to because Darth Vader is on the box art (flip it over), also there is an xpac named after Obi Wan. SWG was selling you on having a movie experience in a sandbox. They got the sandbox part right but that's it.
So again, when it comes to which is better to me it's which made me feel like this is star wars the most?
For me it's SWTOR. No it's not the movie stuff but it was never supposed to be. It's EU. They nailed that.
It felt so epic when my Jedi Knight got his first Lightsaber and they showed him using the force to put it together.. I did not care that 1mil other people just did that, ALL MMOShave that.. it was just cool to me because before that point, I always wondered about how Jedi actually attained their lightsabers. It was a very cool "Star Wars" moment.
Again apples and oranges. Both games had moments when "This doesn't feel like star wars" hits you, but the one that had more of those epic "Ahh this is it" moments for ME was SWTOR.
You say you could do anything. Could I roll a jedi at release or did I have to jump through a bunch of artificial hoops to get one?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
You say you could do anything. Could I roll a jedi at release or did I have to jump through a bunch of artificial hoops to get one?
I admitted to that point already, I'm a SWTOR supporter. I think the way SWG hid the most iconic things about star wars behind the massive skill walls was a horrible gameplay choice.
To be fair though, YES you could do anything (be Jedi included) , it just takes a lot longer to do it than it would on TOR. Again, I think it stupid to hide iconic star wars ideas esp in a game that is supposed to capture the star wars films feel.
Also to make another fair point, It's not artificial hoops you jumped through its literally hundreds of hours you had to pour into certain skill lines to even consider becoming jedi. Once you do reach jedi all those hours of skills did matter, it just took way too long to get to that point. Again my opinion. Some people liked how long it took, but again for me, i wanted to jump right into the star wars action as a force user.
Not spend hours/weeks/months grinding xp for skills just to have the chance to grind for more skills.
OH YEA AFTER YOU SPEND A LIFETIME GRINDING DA SKILLS YOU CAN GET PERMA KILLED. gg Jedi.
Post edited by klash2def on
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Two entirely different games that aren't in conflict with each other. I never played SWG, but i've heard so much about it from it's rabid defenders, i didn't even have to.
Swtor is what it is. Would i like another Star Wars MMO? Absolutely. The only way that's going to happen is if people stop playing swtor, which isn't likely to happen. Just look at lotro, it's been going since around 2007, which is sad. I wish these companies didn't have such long license contracts.
We hear all the things people want to champion about SWG but if I can be honest, SWG lived a little bit longer trying to become what SWTOR is today. Had they had all that stuff in the game at launch who knows, they still might be here and there would be no SWTOR.
This isn't popular opinion but I will explain.
Before CU and NGE, SWG was already going down, that's why they added all that stuff because WoW had all that stuff and was doing incredible. SWG PRE CU had a lack of direction, no real content to drive the player, hard to understand combat system, bugged out quests, etc etc..
Well guess what happens a few years later.. TOR comes out with all that NGE and CU stuff in there, less bugs, and content that would drive the player..
Where TOR and SWG begins to differ is the depth of the gameplay itself.
Let's forget for a second that in SWG you can be a Wookiee Bounty Hunter that sells droids on the side (my character). Lets forget for a second that In TOR you can be a Cyborg Sith Assassin that sells weapon mods on the side (also my character.)
What's a eye opener is how long it takes to do any of these things in both games...
SWG is huge. Lots of class combinations and deep crafting, but everything just takes too long to do. Cant be a Jedi, can't be a Bounty Hunter, can't do anything iconic until you amass a insane amount of skill points to unlock the paths that will eventually get you there. You can't count on it happening in a quick or even reasonable amount of time.
JESUS OF NAZARETH it takes soooo long to do anything in SWG. The world size is huge buuuuutt planets are just as static as SWTOR tbh even more static than TOR just a lot bigger. In SWG you can't just heal yourself, you have to get healed by a medic and get your buffs from a entertainer.. cool ideas but give us the option to buff and heal without having to depend on other people. TOR gets you right into the action from level 1 you feel important and feel as if you are going to have a place in the galaxy, I admire that even if it is a little bit shallow.
SWG was just too deep for its own good. I wanted to make my wookie and jump right into catching bounties not spend 3 weeks shooting at random wompa rats in the desert to level up my carbine skills.
I did enjoy the fact that if you are a certain faction the other faction will automatically shoot at you or try to kill you in their zones, but this is also true of TOR.. the difference is in SWG you can switch factions at any point which is also very cool.
I'm not saying TOR isn't shallow at times outside of the awesome story, because for sure it is. But it is still pound for pound the better star wars mmo.
The two games are very different, like apples and oranges. If you want to jump straight into iconic star wars action play TOR.. if you are looking for a sandbox in Star Wars skin then get SWG. My wishlist
SWTOR:
Add Races: Wookies, Droids, Trandoshan
Add Class: Entertainer
Add: Free Flight in space
Fix: PVP Imbalance (*this is every mmo but tor is really bad) add more open world PVP
Allow: Players to Defect to the other side of the war. (Jedi become Sith, Sith become Jedi, Bounty Hunters take jobs from Republic etc)
Add: Planet exploration. Basically make each planet about 50% bigger.
Fix: Crafting, make it more meaningful AKA some of the best gear/mods can only be crafted
SWG:
Stay dead and let SWTOR absorb the few cool parts of the game.
TLDR: I dont get all the hype about swg being the best ever mmo when it made all these changes to become more like what TOR is today. SWG would have killed to be what TOR is right now.. the key difference is one is themepark, one is sandbox but the general public is all sandbox is automatically better. Buzzword here is sandbox.. idk why folks get so crazy over the word.
"WHOA SANDBOX GAME I CAN MAKE THINGS AND IT TAKES FOREVER TO MAKE THEM SO GAME IS DEEP NOW , GAME IS CLASSIC"
What's your point [mod edit]?
Post edited by Vaross on
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
As a huge star wars fan who saw the original in a drive in theatre in the 70's, I found SWG to be a stinking pile of crap. Nothing about it felt like star wars.
The crafting and housing ruined the game completely. You couldn't go 5 ft on tatooine without running into someones house or harvester. Star wars wasn't supposed to be that. Star wars should have been about fun exciting combat first, story second and frankly they should have left the crafting completely out and put it into a game where it made any semblance of sense being there in the first place. The ridiculous professions such as image designer and entertainer were nothing more than RP fluff that could have just be skills given to anyone rather than waste an entire profession on them. Image designers were annoyances at best trying to explain what you wanted to them, whoever thought up that system should have been fired.
Star wars should have been about fun exciting epic combat between stormtroopers and smugglers. Smuggling and bounty hunting missions. Missions to help either the rebels or imperials and further the war. Instead you had Darth vader just standing there pointless. They tacked on all these crap systems and then had iconic characters and locations be nothing more than pointless fluff.
SWG deserved to die and quite frankly i'm glad it's gone.
SWTOR feels more like star wars than SWG ever did. SWTOR has tons of it's own problems, such as the time setting which i'm not a fan of.
Frankly, there hasn't been a good star wars game since xwing vs tie fighter. I'd personally pay any sum of money for a good open world Star wars game in the vein of Skyrim where you could just do whatever you wanted to. Be a bounty hunter whatever. Single player though.
Some developers failed to realize that the ability to max out several characters is much more appealing then making one character take forever. Sure would like to try that class but who wants to spill another 1k hours into the game.
I agree and they still do it. GW2 leveling is easy and I maxed out every class and enjoyed doing it and still play it everyday. Other games where it takes forever to level one player to max I usually leave before reaching max, especially when they only want to give you one main way to level and actively nerf grind spots and xp so you can buy xp scrolls from the cash shop.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I didn't like either of them but one thing is clear, one is a massive success that is in the top 5 most profitable mmorpg titles running and the other closed down.
Truth is one was for for a small niche of gamers and the other attracted a larger audience, when you have to pay Disney every few years to renew the licence you cannot be a niche mmorpg.
Comments
Pong
Release date(s) November 29, 1972
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pong
Have fun
So, whenever these arguments come up, I voice my opinion that SWG (pre-cu) was better than SW:TOR in the hopes that a future SW MMO will be more like SWG and less like SW:TOR. Given the outrage during development, the terrible launch, the plummeting userbase shortly after launch, the financial failure of the game (until f2p switch) and the continuing scorn from the "core" playerbase, I'd hope that the message has gotten through to Bioware / Disney so that this sort of mistake doesn't happen again in the future.
Of course you can enjoy both, I played both and actually played TOR for longer than SWG, despite liking SWG far better. It also doesn't make any difference if you like both, because only 1 is out at the moment so it's not as if we're affecting the bottom dollar. I eventually quit SW:TOR after it became clear the developers were never going to improve their game, but instead continue to churn out shallow, repetitive, dull content. My emails to Bioware, posts on official forums and in depth analysis of content / systems whilst I was a subscriber fell on deaf ears so voting with my wallet was all I had left that I could do.
Do you want to bring the Star Wars universe to life? Or do you want players to have similar experiences to the movies?
The first one is possible and is what SWG aimed for. It tried to bring the world to life in a semi-realistic way, but what it lacked was scale and purpose. The Galactic Civil War was supposed to be the ever-present backdrop to the game and that is what should have provided the iconic Star Wars experiences, but in reality we just had the 2 themeparks to play through then a bit of pvp.
The second, giving players movie-like experiences, is much better suited to single player games. The only time I've seen it work properly is when everyone can contribute to or participate in hero-like experiences, but isn't the hero. In the Star Wars setting, rather than being Luke blowing up the Death Star, it'd be better if we could be one of the other pilots, making our attempts and helping protect others, or being Chewie and Han helping out in their own way.
When thinking about bringing the universe to life, SWG didn't do too bad. I think tech was a big restriction. For example, heading out of town into the sand dunes of tattooine felt great. I personally felt the isolation, felt like I was in a desert and still enjoyed just riding about, exploring the odd cave etc. On planets with more flora, the tech struggled. Endor, for example, was still good fun to explore but the tech prevented the dense foliage you'd expect. Same thing with towns and cities. The style of everything that was there seemed correct (although a little bit too grid like layouts) however, there just wasn't enough. It was missing the finishing touches, like more NPCs, garbage etc.
SW:TOR, on the other hand, sucked all round. For a start, the small, linear zones killed the experience right from the get go. Star Wars is BIG, with massive locations in all the films but that feeling was missing. It also suffered from being too "clean", whereas the original films were all quite dirty sets (i.e. realistic). Then, it didn't even give you movie-like experiences. I played a Jedi-Shadow, but troopers with a gun were my equal?!?!? I know they had to balance it for mechanical reasons, but it destroyed the IP. Then, the cartoon graphics....another killer.
In my opinion, we need to take the concept of SWG (sandbox, make your own destiny) but offer more tools / systems to allow the emergence of SW moments. So, for example, perhaps let guilds for alliances and let them club together to create ridiculous things. Let guilds / alliances actually build AT-ATs or even death stars (seeing as how they are built by factories / normal men anyway) and let us use them to create our own experiences. Or, let us craft pop-racers and let users / town mayors setup courses and create player events etc.
There are people in every mmo who can't figure out what to do in a group. Please dont pretend as if SWTOR is the only mmo where you have people that can't figure out what to do in a group setting. During SWG's time there were also groups with people who didn't know what to do.
What are you talking about..
Sometimes you can go weeks without finding a competent group in these types of games, it's just how it is.
My advice for you, is to stop using LFG tools. Its lazy and if you do use that tool in any mmo dont cry about having fail groups because you were too lazy to put together a competent one before hand or join a guild that is helpful like that.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
The game is far from failure actually from what I'm seeing. Rough start? sure. Fail? I wouldn't reach.
Your opinions of whether or not it's an mmo has nothing to do with SWTOR being a failure.
Please provide links to SWTOR's failure.
Please give us your definition of a failure game.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
So that makes it ok. Great. Timmy's mom let's him do that so I can....
These disgruntled swg players don't want to make an effort to get over it. They would rather stay stuck than grow.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The numbers were not growing. They were losing numbers. They shouldn't have been happy about that. But keep the wow lie alive.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I want to touch on that too. This is a major point a lot of people in the thread are missing.
Out of both games the only one that was supposed to feel like the films was "SWG."
SWTOR is based on KOTOR video games and EU canon beforehand. Basically it's a game based on the EU.
SWG is heavily based on the films and it's obvious just look at the box art (for you geezers)
Out of the two .. for my money TOR nailed what they were going for as far as feel. They were not trying to remake the film material, they had more creativity to play with because the whole thing is based on EU.
SO when people say, "Star Wars Experience" think about what you are saying here. SWG did not capture the magic of the films, and neither did SWTOR so what experience are we talking about as Star Wars fans?
SWTOR captured the EU feel perfectly if you ask me. From the horrible fashion choices, to the main characters we see in game. (Read the comics it's all in there!)
Combined with the writing of Bioware and you have something that is doing what it was supposed to do which was capture the fans of the EU KOTOR.
SWG had this huge sandbox where you can pretty much do anything and create your own story with your friends. But again there is a huge wall behind the most iconic "Star Wars" moments. Some people wanted that, some did not. Outside of it being a HUGE sandbox, I dont see how it captures any of the magic of the films. It was for sure supposed to because Darth Vader is on the box art (flip it over), also there is an xpac named after Obi Wan. SWG was selling you on having a movie experience in a sandbox. They got the sandbox part right but that's it.
So again, when it comes to which is better to me it's which made me feel like this is star wars the most?
For me it's SWTOR. No it's not the movie stuff but it was never supposed to be. It's EU. They nailed that.
It felt so epic when my Jedi Knight got his first Lightsaber and they showed him using the force to put it together.. I did not care that 1mil other people just did that, ALL MMOS have that.. it was just cool to me because before that point, I always wondered about how Jedi actually attained their lightsabers. It was a very cool "Star Wars" moment.
Again apples and oranges. Both games had moments when "This doesn't feel like star wars" hits you, but the one that had more of those epic "Ahh this is it" moments for ME was SWTOR.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
It's okay little policeman, we'll forgive you for doing such a poor job of investigating. You're obviously a rookie.
I do agree. Stupid idea. We wanted to experience the films with this one, which means immediately being able to play a Jedi.. they botched that for me.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
There were a number of little things; the locations, some of the NPC's, the whole cantina atmosphere.
I think the biggest factor for picking come's down to the age of the person. For us older folk - we grew up on the original trilogy. For the younger it was the EU version. Heck when KOTOR came out I had to have my kids explain it to me as I'd never heard of it. SWTOR was the same.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
I grew up in the 90s-early 2000s so I did see the early 2k's films although to me they were not better than the older original ones. I really got into the entire universe by way of the comic books. The films did not have all this extra depth to it outside of the skywalker family so to me the comics provided a level of star wars mythology that the films never did.
Which is why I lean more towards to TOR game vs SWG only because to me they nailed the EU a bit more than SWG nailed the films.
The EU has far more depth and creativity than the films because let's face it, the films are 1D and only have 1 family/story involved. There should be thousands of stories in this universe which is the appeal of star wars for me personally.
There are other stories/families that would make amazing games/films but The Old Republic stuff fit what bioware was trying to do perfectly.
I do agree though, it has a lot to do with the age range of the fan who is experiencing the game. My star wars fandom came mostly via the EU comics so if I could break it down it looks like this:
70% EU Comics/Books
15% Original Trilogy
10% KOTOR Video Games
5% Early 2000's Trilogy
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
You say you could do anything. Could I roll a jedi at release or did I have to jump through a bunch of artificial hoops to get one?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
To be fair though, YES you could do anything (be Jedi included) , it just takes a lot longer to do it than it would on TOR. Again, I think it stupid to hide iconic star wars ideas esp in a game that is supposed to capture the star wars films feel.
Also to make another fair point, It's not artificial hoops you jumped through its literally hundreds of hours you had to pour into certain skill lines to even consider becoming jedi. Once you do reach jedi all those hours of skills did matter, it just took way too long to get to that point. Again my opinion. Some people liked how long it took, but again for me, i wanted to jump right into the star wars action as a force user.
Not spend hours/weeks/months grinding xp for skills just to have the chance to grind for more skills.
OH YEA AFTER YOU SPEND A LIFETIME GRINDING DA SKILLS YOU CAN GET PERMA KILLED. gg Jedi.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Swtor is what it is. Would i like another Star Wars MMO? Absolutely. The only way that's going to happen is if people stop playing swtor, which isn't likely to happen. Just look at lotro, it's been going since around 2007, which is sad. I wish these companies didn't have such long license contracts.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
The crafting and housing ruined the game completely. You couldn't go 5 ft on tatooine without running into someones house or harvester. Star wars wasn't supposed to be that. Star wars should have been about fun exciting combat first, story second and frankly they should have left the crafting completely out and put it into a game where it made any semblance of sense being there in the first place. The ridiculous professions such as image designer and entertainer were nothing more than RP fluff that could have just be skills given to anyone rather than waste an entire profession on them. Image designers were annoyances at best trying to explain what you wanted to them, whoever thought up that system should have been fired.
Star wars should have been about fun exciting epic combat between stormtroopers and smugglers. Smuggling and bounty hunting missions. Missions to help either the rebels or imperials and further the war. Instead you had Darth vader just standing there pointless. They tacked on all these crap systems and then had iconic characters and locations be nothing more than pointless fluff.
SWG deserved to die and quite frankly i'm glad it's gone.
SWTOR feels more like star wars than SWG ever did. SWTOR has tons of it's own problems, such as the time setting which i'm not a fan of.
Frankly, there hasn't been a good star wars game since xwing vs tie fighter. I'd personally pay any sum of money for a good open world Star wars game in the vein of Skyrim where you could just do whatever you wanted to. Be a bounty hunter whatever. Single player though.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
SWTOR is a bad KOTORIII with a sub
tried SWTOR last week, server is empty
Truth is one was for for a small niche of gamers and the other attracted a larger audience, when you have to pay Disney every few years to renew the licence you cannot be a niche mmorpg.