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It's important that Pantheon will be hard.

13

Comments

  • Kayo83Kayo83 Member UncommonPosts: 397
    whilan said:
    Wasn't that what Wildstar was supposed to be, really hard, you needed others to succeed, only for the Hardcore? Isn't that also what caused it to fail?

    Edit: i also don't buy it was good design vs bad design.  Most people couldn't beat it or it took too long hence why they left.
    It was bad design. I didnt get very far in Wildstar because it sucked. Only good design decision it had going was its housing. Combat was terrible and spammy. Everything had its freaking floor pattern! And for what? Sure, group play was tough but staring at the ground playing an ADHD version of "the floor is lava" isnt. Everything in between was mind-numbingly easy. Mobs posed almost no threat. Questing was the usual "follow the glowing dot on the map" chore. The pop-up "Challenges" were ok in general but popped up at the worst times. "Oh you just reached your quest area? Cool ... now run through all these checkpoints in the other direction before time runs out. Have fun!"

    Not to mention there is only so much "Pixar Movie" I can take before it gets irritating.
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,783
    It depends on what people mean when they say "Hard". What I don't want is more of the same ol' RPG arms race. You know, just add more Health and DPS to mobs, requiring ever higher DPS and Damage Absorption for player characters.

    I don't mind "linking" groups of mobs and mobs that can summon adds. I also don't mind mob groups with mixed functions, like having ranged attacks or healers amongst them. Obviously, leaders or special mobs are going to be tougher, but just adding more health and damage output to a mob is king of disappointing in terms of a challenge.
    This is really very important and a huge differentiating factor between something like Dark Souls and [insert any MMO here].

    Dark Souls isn't about being difficult, it's about leveling up as a player, not as an avatar in a game. The game says, "here are the challenges before you and here are the tools, do with them what you will." MMO's generally do not do that. They pretty much all put into place limitations of "you must be at least this tall to enter" for everything.

    If an MMO wants to be "hard" then it should be hard in the sense that the better you play, the more you can do. Not, the longer you play and the better your gear, the more you can do.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,416
    Nasa said:
    Except from EVE which MMO's are considered hard and successful?
    Age Of Wulin. 




  • StevonStevon Member UncommonPosts: 219

    Right now I got talked into playing Dark Souls 3, by a fellow worker.  It's a hard game, it started off just the two of us.  Everyone else is under the impression that it's too hard.  However since everyone else are constantly hearing us talk about it, there asking questions.  Now we have four others playing the game and loving it.

    Were all constantly in a jam at some point in the game and we discuss options for that person....It's getting hard to concentrate on our jobs :)

    Being in a jam ALL THE TIME is the key to us having fun !......We all love it......All of us.

    We have to really concentrate on both character development and game world.......This is how an mmo is to be made.

    IT'S WHAT KEEPS YOU PLAYING.


    And as always, no cash shop, because that's a trick !

    Within reason.  What people don't realize is that for these games to flourish they need customers and a game like EQ would not succeed today unless there were some tweaks to make it accessible to a wider audience.

    EQ in it's hayday was IT there were no other good choices, so we played it.   Many of us loved the challenge and hated the amount of time it took to progress.   If Pantheon returns to those days it will fail.

    Challenge balanced with a realization of the fact that times have changed is critical to it succeeding.   I don't want another WoW but I also don't want another EQ.   I want a balance.

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    edited June 2016
    EQ today is not your father's EQ.  If a new game much like current EQ but with updated graphics was released it would sell well enough.  Personally, Id rather have something more like Vanguard though.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,416
    svann said:
    EQ today is not your father's EQ.  If a new game much like current EQ but with updated graphics was released it would sell well enough.  Personally, Id rather have something more like Vanguard though.
    I agree, i think we are going for a bit of both with a modern touch.




  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    Stevon said:

    Right now I got talked into playing Dark Souls 3, by a fellow worker.  It's a hard game, it started off just the two of us.  Everyone else is under the impression that it's too hard.  However since everyone else are constantly hearing us talk about it, there asking questions.  Now we have four others playing the game and loving it.

    Were all constantly in a jam at some point in the game and we discuss options for that person....It's getting hard to concentrate on our jobs :)

    Being in a jam ALL THE TIME is the key to us having fun !......We all love it......All of us.

    We have to really concentrate on both character development and game world.......This is how an mmo is to be made.

    IT'S WHAT KEEPS YOU PLAYING.


    And as always, no cash shop, because that's a trick !

    Within reason.  What people don't realize is that for these games to flourish they need customers and a game like EQ would not succeed today unless there were some tweaks to make it accessible to a wider audience.

    EQ in it's hayday was IT there were no other good choices, so we played it.   Many of us loved the challenge and hated the amount of time it took to progress.   If Pantheon returns to those days it will fail.

    Challenge balanced with a realization of the fact that times have changed is critical to it succeeding.   I don't want another WoW but I also don't want another EQ.   I want a balance.

    This is the second post today where you claimed EQ was only for hardcores, and that Pantheon would fail it if was modeled after it. Its simply not true.

    Yes, to be the best and the first to see and do everything in EverQuest, was a huge time investment. Fortunately, that was not the goal for most people and it was before the modern belief that the player is entitled to see and do everything playing casually. That top 10% (that exists in every mmo) spent ridiculous amounts of time playing and that's the narrative that's been repeated ad naseum. Back in reality, the other 90% who had a job and a life but also played and enjoyed EQ is no longer represented; and I can tell you right now, we weren't just playing EQ because "there were no other good choices."

    The fact that it took so much time to experience everything that EQ had to offer was what made it feel like it was worth playing. It gave your achievements weight. It made you feel like there was always something else to strive for and a reason to continue playing. For those reasons, with great anticipation, we thought and planned about what we would do when we were finally able to get back to our PC and log in to Norrath. That is what made the game so compelling!

    What you are proposing is that Pantheon be designed for players who "hate the amount of time it took to progress [in EverQuest]." I think that is a horrible idea, and will likely only result in another tired online fantasy game the offers a "more of the same" experience.


  • StevonStevon Member UncommonPosts: 219
    Dullahan said:
    Stevon said:

    Right now I got talked into playing Dark Souls 3, by a fellow worker.  It's a hard game, it started off just the two of us.  Everyone else is under the impression that it's too hard.  However since everyone else are constantly hearing us talk about it, there asking questions.  Now we have four others playing the game and loving it.

    Were all constantly in a jam at some point in the game and we discuss options for that person....It's getting hard to concentrate on our jobs :)

    Being in a jam ALL THE TIME is the key to us having fun !......We all love it......All of us.

    We have to really concentrate on both character development and game world.......This is how an mmo is to be made.

    IT'S WHAT KEEPS YOU PLAYING.


    And as always, no cash shop, because that's a trick !

    Within reason.  What people don't realize is that for these games to flourish they need customers and a game like EQ would not succeed today unless there were some tweaks to make it accessible to a wider audience.

    EQ in it's hayday was IT there were no other good choices, so we played it.   Many of us loved the challenge and hated the amount of time it took to progress.   If Pantheon returns to those days it will fail.

    Challenge balanced with a realization of the fact that times have changed is critical to it succeeding.   I don't want another WoW but I also don't want another EQ.   I want a balance.

    This is the second post today where you claimed EQ was only for hardcores, and that Pantheon would fail it if was modeled after it. Its simply not true.

    Yes, to be the best and the first to see and do everything in EverQuest, was a huge time investment. Fortunately, that was not the goal for most people and it was before the modern belief that the player is entitled to see and do everything playing casually. That top 10% (that exists in every mmo) spent ridiculous amounts of time playing and that's the narrative that's been repeated ad naseum. Back in reality, the other 90% who had a job and a life but also played and enjoyed EQ is no longer represented; and I can tell you right now, we weren't just playing EQ because "there were no other good choices."

    The fact that it took so much time to experience everything that EQ had to offer was what made it feel like it was worth playing. It gave your achievements weight. It made you feel like there was always something else to strive for and a reason to continue playing. For those reasons, with great anticipation, we thought and planned about what we would do when we were finally able to get back to our PC and log in to Norrath. That is what made the game so compelling!

    What you are proposing is that Pantheon be designed for players who "hate the amount of time it took to progress [in EverQuest]." I think that is a horrible idea, and will likely only result in another tired online fantasy game the offers a "more of the same" experience.
    I never said "modeled after it" nor did I say it should be designed for players who hate the amount of time it took to progress in EverQuest.  I am saying that if it IS a rehash of EQ and takes the same amount of time that it will not succeed in today's market.   There will likely be some who enjoy that (like yourself) but I am pretty sure, based on my own experience and knowing tons of heavy EQ players (of all types), that some will play for a while but soon find themselves moving on after realizing they don't have the time to invest.

    That said as long as the game is rich in content, combat is compelling and there are things to do other than grinding endlessly for levels... then I expect it will be successful.   We don't know enough yet to know one way or the other but so far I am personally pretty excited.

    I know the game will have a progression curve more like EQ than WoW, which I agree is good, but again within reason.  A game with old EQs curve in today's market would not retain players for long imo.

    I think what made EQ so compelling was the overall experience - the community, raiding, grouping and more - not the time it took to progress.   "Difficulty" itself is not compelling without rich content and compelling gameplay.

    Ultimately if the content is compelling time will be ok... but if you need to spend a month grinding at a specific camp to gain 5 levels then I think we will see a ghost town of a game real soon.
  • User836User836 Member UncommonPosts: 117
    edited June 2016

    There are so many things that combine to make a good gaming experience and there is much interdependency between those things. I have enjoyed some really easy games and some really hard ones, sometimes the difficulty or lack of it has been a very prominent reason for liking the game, sometimes not.

    I believe it is the total package that determines whether I like something or not. The pieces need to fit together and provide an working and fun whole. For some games a tough difficulty is a good fit, for others it is a bad one. Sometimes certain aspects of the game should be harder than others - this is often true (for me) when it comes to MMORPGs.

    Of course some like generally higher difficulty games more than others but even so the 'just right' amount of difficulty even for an individual might be different from game to game.

    More summarily: In my view, it's important that Pantheon will be just as hard as its components dictate it to be in order for it to be a fun game.

  • mayito7777mayito7777 Member UncommonPosts: 768

    Right now I got talked into playing Dark Souls 3, by a fellow worker.  It's a hard game, it started off just the two of us.  Everyone else is under the impression that it's too hard.  However since everyone else are constantly hearing us talk about it, there asking questions.  Now we have four others playing the game and loving it.

    Were all constantly in a jam at some point in the game and we discuss options for that person....It's getting hard to concentrate on our jobs :)

    Being in a jam ALL THE TIME is the key to us having fun !......We all love it......All of us.

    We have to really concentrate on both character development and game world.......This is how an mmo is to be made.

    IT'S WHAT KEEPS YOU PLAYING.


    And as always, no cash shop, because that's a trick !

    Amazes me how 2-3 players think they speak for the whole MMO community, only 5% of the total player base likes what you like, the other 95% loves to have fun, to socialize with guild members, Wildstar took the approach you like and look where they are now, the hardcore community is like a band of wild mosquitoes they come to a new game, they bit, they suck the blood and 3 months later they are on to the new shinny thing, they dont stick to any game, the casual and semi-casual players are the ones who stick to a game and develop a community. so please save your rhetoric.

    want 7 free days of playing? Try this

    http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    Kyleran said:

    Blizzard simplified WOW'S raiding so it would appeal to more than 10% of the playerbase.
    Among all the posters who brag that WoW raiding is easy, I'm willing to bet real money that not even 5% have actually beaten the hardest current raid in Mythic mode.
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    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • BossalinieBossalinie Member UncommonPosts: 723
    Dullahan said:
    LynxJSA said:
    Dullahan said:
    Kyleran said:
    On a more serious note, MMO players generally won't stick with a game they can't "beat.'

    Blizzard simplified WOW'S raiding so it would appeal to more than 10% of the playerbase.

    So the real question for Pantheons devs is how small of a long term playerbase do they wish to appeal to?

    (I'm thinking the Wildstar team had some 2nd thoughts on this seeing how things all turned out.)
    What are you basing the statement on that MMO players won't stick with a game they can't beat? The vast majority of people playing MMOs up to and including WoW were not "beating" those games, yet they continued playing them. By WoTLK, still less than 10% of their playerbase even cleared the final raid content.

    Kyleran is correct. MMORPGs for the past 12 years or so have been designed to get people to the end not to prevent them from getting to the end. If Pantheon wants to repeat the mistakes of the past, it's free to do so if it feels it can sustain itself on the limited audience it would attract. 

    Thats nothing but semantical nonsense. MMORPGs were hard, and people didn't complete all available content, including in WoW when it was at its peak. You can argue all day that they were designed to get people to the end, but the fact remains that most people did NOT accomplish everything.

    There was a carrot, and and stick. Now its just more carrot with little to no stick.
    I don't believe it's that cut and dry.

    The content people did not complete specifically relied on +20-40 others, substantial commitment, persistence, good leaders, and just down right time.

    I hate the WoW 10% completion card because its lacks base. That 10% means nothing towards difficultly if 100% of WoW player base were not hardcore raiders.

    IMO, I'm going to need to see if they can make the living MMO world difficult... beyond dungeons and raids...
  • AkemieAkemie Member UncommonPosts: 45
    The difficulty has to be reasonable and fun for the average player; otherwise, catering to the 5% hardcore crowd will cause the game to crash and burn.  They will need to find that sweet spot.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    edited June 2016
    Amazes me how 2-3 players think they speak for the whole MMO community, only 5% of the total player base likes what you like, the other 95% loves to have fun, to socialize with guild members, Wildstar took the approach you like and look where they are now, the hardcore community is like a band of wild mosquitoes they come to a new game, they bit, they suck the blood and 3 months later they are on to the new shinny thing, they dont stick to any game, the casual and semi-casual players are the ones who stick to a game and develop a community. so please save your rhetoric.
    The hardcore players I know tend to spend years in the same game so I don't believe that is true. Yeah, Wildstar was a disaster but I always had the impression it was going for group players (instead of soloers) and that isn't the same thing, many casual players enjoy grouping.

    There are bungee players though that play a MMO hardcore 3 weeks before leaving and then don't play for months but they probably fit better in your semi hardcore group, they usually skip the more challenging stuff anyways and just level up to max and hit a few heroics before leaving. In hours a year that group mostly play like casuals.

    WS wasn't really that hard besides a few raids, finding a good group was harder then most of the actual content. It was certainly nothing compared to early MMOs. Plenty of very easy games have failed as well (edit: easy sologames).

    The reason to make Pantheon harder then the average modern MMO is simple in any case: there is very little competition there unlike the standard solofriendly MMO that is super easy until a while after hitting max level, there you go up against 200 games with Wow in pole position. A good and different MMO have a lot of potential but it need to stand out. Going up against Wow on it's terms always end badly.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 2,946
    Time needed to achieve something does not equal difficulty. And that is exactly what older MMOs required, more time to get things done. More time to travel, more time to level up, more time to get a group going etc. nothing difficult, just more time consuming.

    Funnily enough some of the harder content I have encountered in an MMO has been in WoW higher level raiding during the TBC and WoTLK era, you know, that easy mode game that ruined the genre. And even that wasn't incredibly hard, MMOs were never about that. If you want hard, go play bullethell shooters, the Souls series or some oldschool DMC or Ninja Gaiden Black. Patheon does not need to be hard and even more niche, it needs to be good so it can become a sleeper hit, not a bastion of even more elitism and exclusivity.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
     


    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • ReMouRNReMouRN Member UncommonPosts: 11
    I understand part of raiding has been and probably always will be learning the fight, the script, and simply locking it down. Personally, I have always thought that a true test of a team would be to have a raid fight be totally randomized. It would take a lot to make this work, but if there were certain tiers of raiding where you had an easy mode, where the raid was always the same thing every time to help people learn to raid and work together efficiently and of course - obtain better gear. Then there could be the hard mode, where the actual boss would be the same to some degree, but you never knew what you were going into. I think that would be so intense that if done correctly, could be amazing.

    Imagine having to learn on the fly within reason that every minute fifteen seconds adds were spawned. Along with that a noxious pool of sorts would randomly appear that you had to avoid and move the fight and raid away from. On top of that every five minutes that all if the adds weren't burned down a mini raid boss would spawn that the raid would have to direct _immediate_ attention to, otherwise it would prove fatal.

    That's a very basic premise I just tossed out on the fly. Some might say, well that's just a dps fight. Or, as long as you have solid heals and dps what makes that different from any other raid fight? Well, how about this.. have it so if the raid is doing well that the add timer shortens and add another X factor into the fight. Some of the toughest raid fights where everything wasn't muscle memory are my fondest. I am surprised no one has incorporated this idea yet, and I hope to see it done some day.

    image
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    I think the issue for many is remembering what exactly was hard in most MMORPGs in the first place.  Hard to me as an example is a game that challenges my skill, not my patience. If the challenge I have to face is one of not getting bored, I don't consider that hard game-play, the exact opposite actually, if it was truly hard I wouldn't be bored, I'd feel challenged, which is stimulating and forces me to think.  I can't recall a single experience in an MMORPG that forced me to think on that level...  Not even in most PVP situations. 

    In my experience most MMORPGs are a numbers game, everything revolves around that. Be it number of players needed, numbers in gear enhancements needed, numbers in PVP, etc... With the right numbers and right enhancements, most things become easy, outside of some pieces of content like hardcore raiding, which is still heavily reliant on the numbers game as well. 






    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    edited June 2016
    Patience or the time factor is important if an mmo is to have any semblance of realism. Just the fact that not everything is always readily available is part of the challenge. They're endurance challenges, and its part of life and sports. Not all competitions are immediately decided by who is the fastest or strongest or smartest, but who wants it the most over a period of time (like a series or a season). Otherwise, getting your reward or that trophy wouldn't mean much.

    The trick is balancing it so the challenge is still fun and not too tedious. Personally, I felt EQ was successful at doing just that. Others will disagree, and that is fine. Everyone has a different threshold.


  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    ReMouRN said:
    I understand part of raiding has been and probably always will be learning the fight, the script, and simply locking it down. Personally, I have always thought that a true test of a team would be to have a raid fight be totally randomized. It would take a lot to make this work, but if there were certain tiers of raiding where you had an easy mode, where the raid was always the same thing every time to help people learn to raid and work together efficiently and of course - obtain better gear. Then there could be the hard mode, where the actual boss would be the same to some degree, but you never knew what you were going into. I think that would be so intense that if done correctly, could be amazing.

    Imagine having to learn on the fly within reason that every minute fifteen seconds adds were spawned. Along with that a noxious pool of sorts would randomly appear that you had to avoid and move the fight and raid away from. On top of that every five minutes that all if the adds weren't burned down a mini raid boss would spawn that the raid would have to direct _immediate_ attention to, otherwise it would prove fatal.

    That's a very basic premise I just tossed out on the fly. Some might say, well that's just a dps fight. Or, as long as you have solid heals and dps what makes that different from any other raid fight? Well, how about this.. have it so if the raid is doing well that the add timer shortens and add another X factor into the fight. Some of the toughest raid fights where everything wasn't muscle memory are my fondest. I am surprised no one has incorporated this idea yet, and I hope to see it done some day.

    As your idea was on the fly I'll just point out a few objections on the fly.  Say there are a dozen or even 2 dozen different combination of mechanics that can happen.  People zone into a raid and discover that they don't like the mechanics chosen - "Ok, everybody zone out and reset your instance - we need to get a different mechanic."

    Penalizing a raid by making it harder when they do well will go over like a lead balloon unless you also decide that the loot will scale up when the added difficultly kicks in.

    These are the 2 things that immediately popped into my head when I read your post.  Frankly I don't think it would be worth the dev time to try to implement something like this for the small percentage of raiders out there - can you imagine trying to debug this and get it working consistently?  Devs have enough trouble getting the mechanics to work when they don't have a random factor into which ones the bosses have.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,174
    For people to enjoy the game being hard, some folks new to games of this type may have to adjust their view of what "the game" is.

    For example, in EQ you may try to get to Castle Mistmoor but end up getting ganked by a brownie along the way instead. Then you have to recover your corpse, etc. You may need help from friends to drag your corpse or kill the brownies.

    Nowadays, all the travel time, the encounter with the brownies, the recovery, and any help you may ask for from your friends to get back to a safer area - all that is "down time."  It is not, as some see it, "part of the fun."

    I never saw that as down time. I saw it as part of the game. I don't mean to suggest I liked getting ganked. But I liked adventuring in a world that was dangerous and posed surprises. That's part of the sense of "hard" I am looking for. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AnirethAnireth Member UncommonPosts: 939
    The problem is most people seem to think that multiplying all numbers by 10000 is the way to go. Sure, it might be "hard"; but not "challenging". If you can walk around the enemy in a circle all day, maybe even simply lock camera + and enable autowalk and put something on mouse 1, it might take you a few days to kill that boss, but was it challenging?

    From what i gather, Dark Souls does a bit of both. Instant death due to not evading properly etc. Most MMOs only increase numbers. Whether it's one enemy with 100 million HP when your best attack does 1000, or if it's 100 enemies at once or 10000 coming one after another.

    Increasing numbers makes a game harder, but not challenging in a positive way.

    Thats also why people look for gear score and stuff. Once you watched a video on Youtube or finished the dungeon once, you know 99% or more of what can happen. The only "challenging" thing is to do enough damage before the time runs out, given that the boss is immune most of the time.

    Another things is if bosses are designed to basically only target certain classes (AoE centered at boss with a range of 2 meters less than the ranged classes.. just enough so that melee classes can't dodge out, but ranged are safe at all times..). Best if they knock you down or otherwise immobilize you, so that the boss can do it another tme, or even two times, before you can move again..
    Another thing are moves that randomly target one player and almost certainly kill him, with no way to know who it will target beforehand, or to dodge it. If you're it, gg. Sometimes you'll even get kicked for dying when there was nothing that could be done.

    That not "challenging", it's just "hard". Numbers on their own are pointless, it's the mechanics that make a game challenging.

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    And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
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  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 480
    edited July 2016
    Amathe said:
    For people to enjoy the game being hard, some folks new to games of this type may have to adjust their view of what "the game" is.

    For example, in EQ you may try to get to Castle Mistmoor but end up getting ganked by a brownie along the way instead. Then you have to recover your corpse, etc. You may need help from friends to drag your corpse or kill the brownies.

    Nowadays, all the travel time, the encounter with the brownies, the recovery, and any help you may ask for from your friends to get back to a safer area - all that is "down time."  It is not, as some see it, "part of the fun."

    I never saw that as down time. I saw it as part of the game. I don't mean to suggest I liked getting ganked. But I liked adventuring in a world that was dangerous and posed surprises. That's part of the sense of "hard" I am looking for. 
    Exactly. I think more than one posters in this thread would argue what you just described is a test of patience more often than not, instead of challenge or intellect or teamwork or something. It's like getting a pizza and discovering 90% of it's rotten while one small piece is blissful. The whole pizza should be thrown out. And I think that mentality is a travesty. The same people seem to like games on rails, I swear.

    I was thinking about teh sewers below Qeynos. It was so easy to get lost in them and lose your corpse. It took time you know and it was easy to get aggro by accident. And yet that's precisely why I liked it! The pain of a corpse run and the panic which ensued when I was lost and getting killed served as the foundation for the  successes. It kept me playing because I valued it. I fought through it. I survived it!

    I'm sorry but I have to feel some pain to respect the MMO. If I don't respect it, I don't stick around. Respect comes from a couple things. The first is choices which I can enjoy. Being in a group and having to know when to change aggro or when to do C&C or whne to run and so on are interesting choices to me. Second, it has to hurt when I don't do well or just plunge blindly into a dangerous place. And there's really only one way to make it hurt. It has to cost you time. Sorry, but it won't hurt any other way.

    Dismiss me or claim I don't exist, whatever. I do exist and I do influence. I know because I'm an old gamer and have met others like myself. Modern game designers are increasingly hostile to us because ther'es a trend in design schools. Essentially, negative consequences are to be avoided like hte plague. hence, game design is more about psychology than ti's games now. And this means people like myself cannot respect most games being produced. All is lost? Not exactly. See, not everybody making games is coming out of these design schools. We're not all clones yet.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,628
    Being hard has NOTHING to do with good quality combat design.
    Perfect example is Darkest Dungeon,that is a crap design and very shallow,yet most would consider it hard to beat.

    ANYONE,any combat /level designer can make any battle totally unbeatable,that doesn't take any skill at all.
    Imo the MOST important factor is to keep fun and only challenging because too hard usually means nothing more than memorizing some sequences that need said response instead of just random predictability.

    This is what has been happening in the RAID scene,nothing more than predictable sequences then players respond the same way every time,rinse and repeat,that is NOT fun gaming.I don't want to watch some you tube video on how to beat some npc,i want to just randomly play the game,the way i want without predictable sequences.

    I know most still scratching their head,wtf is he talking about,yeah exactly my point.An example to make it more clear and how Raiding is usually done is for example,....25% dmg and said Boss heals and releases a special attack,again at 33%,maybe at 50%.I have used the FFXI a millions times before because seems most gamer's have been playing poorly designed combat.In FFXI you could have trouble with the simplest mobs,just because they were unpredictable,you simply had to pay attention and react,no need for 15 dps to overtake the mobs regeneration,no need for 5 rezzers to raise constant dying players,just simple "pay attention" combat,challenging but still fun.
    I guarantee the FIRST mention of difficult combat will be a RAID,i 100% guarantee it,these or i should say MOST system designers are bad at their job and think only one way,one dimensional.They want tough combat.."hurry let's make a RAID"  lmao,would be all i need to see to stay away from said game.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • XxPriestxXXxPriestxX Member UncommonPosts: 133
    <Insert another post based on personal subjective opinion in order to argue with another personal subjective opinion.>

    I just want a good game with an oldskewl feel to it. It doesn't have to be an EQ, but definitely don't want a WoW. So far, what I've seen of the game appeals to what I'm looking for. (i.e. More group content, less special snowflake, training mobs ftw!)
    Trolling, being trolled, getting banned, yelling at mods, getting perma banned, making new accounts, and still trolling this site since 2004 =D
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    edited July 2016
    delete
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