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Beyond PvE and PvP

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,122

imageBeyond PvE and PvP

For anyone who frequents the MMORPG Universe and isn’t aware, last week Chronicles of Elyria (COE) officially funded on Kickstarter. If you know one thing about COE it’s probably that it will feature a volatile concoction of permdeath, survival mechanics and PVP! “Uh, that was 3 things.” Good job sunshine, glad you are paying attention, now try to keep up because I’m about to drop some bold words! Ready?

Read the full story here



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Comments

  • AlomarAlomar Member RarePosts: 1,186
    One things for sure, you are dead right about a significant amount of players looking for an mmo home and just unable to find one. I think it's much larger than a "niche", many players have either given up on the mmo genre, settled with a lesser game, or move from game to game. I'm a hardcore pvper and even I value creativity and the social aspects of mmo's that have not just been lacking in recent years, but has been all but nil. If COE can accomplish what they plan, even if it only has mediocre and not 100% to my liking pvp, I'd be willing to give it a shot at a chance of creating my own content once again.
    Fortes Fortuna Iuvat

    18 year MMO veteran 
    Retired PvP Raid Leader 
    Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 20,894
    edited June 2016
    Well sunshine the game has to be made first.

    chances of CoE being completed with ALL promised features working as described without any scalebacks - 0%
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,896

    DMKano said:

    Well sunshine the game has to be made first.

    chances of CoE being completed with ALL promised features working as described without any scalebacks - 0%



    Agreed.

    CoE is probably the most ambitious game design I have ever seen. It's almost as if they've taken every feature from MMO history that DIDN'T work before and incorporated them all in the CoE "grand design".

    Perhaps it's an MMO legend-in-the-making, perhaps it's just another overambitious indie team promising to deliver the impossible. Time will tell.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    Speaking in terms of technology, it might be pulled of.


    While there are very likely still technological issues that should not be underestimated - afterall, SpatialOS has never been implemented in such scope and it is very much untested technology, the main problem imo is the design.

    Many amateur/indie developers try to mimic real-life mechanics but they do not realize, as much as players, how non-fun those mechanics are when implemented - if they are even possible to implement.

    It is almost a stereotype symptom of indie devs - they are not making the game for actual players but to filfull their very own "dreams", such endeavours are inevitably deemed to fail, you cannot leave out of equation your customers. You make your game, or in fact any business, for your customers, not the other way round.

    Typical example is probably most controversial feature - aging of your character. Who is actually attracted to start the game as a warrior to find out that with more you play, less profficient at combat you will be because your character ages? Who is actually interested in permanent death of your character?

    The list can go on and on, the gameis being made of random real-life alike features but no-one is actually asking: Is that what players want? Will they find it fun? Those fundamental questions are not being asked, or in fact thought of, they are sort of side product of game development.

    It is truly an irony when you see people throwing money at kickstarter games in hope the devs will make a game they want, while in fact they are the last developers care about....
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    SpottyGekko said:
    Agreed.

    CoE is probably the most ambitious game design I have ever seen. It's almost as if they've taken every feature from MMO history that DIDN'T work before and incorporated them all in the CoE "grand design".

    Perhaps it's an MMO legend-in-the-making, perhaps it's just another overambitious indie team promising to deliver the impossible. Time will tell.
    More likely you just have forgotten them after your expectations met with reality of actual game...if even there was any game.
  • MonriaMonria Member UncommonPosts: 10
    Alomar said:
    One things for sure, you are dead right about a significant amount of players looking for an mmo home and just unable to find one. I think it's much larger than a "niche", many players have either given up on the mmo genre, settled with a lesser game, or move from game to game. I'm a hardcore pvper and even I value creativity and the social aspects of mmo's that have not just been lacking in recent years, but has been all but nil. If COE can accomplish what they plan, even if it only has mediocre and not 100% to my liking pvp, I'd be willing to give it a shot at a chance of creating my own content once again.
    Hey @alomar if you really like PVP and want to try something cool try Entropia Universe, it is a real cash economy so you are looting real money!!! there is also space pirating 

    I've been playing it for over 10 years and I like it a lot (though I never go near the PVP areas:) )

    The best place to start it is on a moon named Monria ;) ( I work on the moon :) )

    Go to monria.com and download it
    If you are born on Monria you will get a great starting experience and support through you discipleship and you will always have free flights to other planets like Calypso and Arkadia for a start.
    Also the community on Monria has been said to be the best in the entire entropia universe :)

    There is only one snag and it is a big one:
    Though the game is free to play; because it is a real cash economy, you are not going to be ubber in a few weeks, this is a serious gaming adventure that will take time and that you will end up depositing into if you like it....

    However People who have put effort in over time have made money in it and given up their day job :)
    And if you go down the PVP route you could make this work :)

    Note: Remember in PVP you can also be looted!!

    Why not go to  Monria it's the best place to start your virtual life in Entropia Universe

  • ErevusErevus Member UncommonPosts: 94

    Gdemami said:

    Speaking in terms of technology, it might be pulled of.


    While there are very likely still technological issues that should not be underestimated - afterall, SpatialOS has never been implemented in such scope and it is very much untested technology, the main problem imo is the design.

    Many amateur/indie developers try to mimic real-life mechanics but they do not realize, as much as players, how non-fun those mechanics are when implemented - if they are even possible to implement.

    It is almost a stereotype symptom of indie devs - they are not making the game for actual players but to filfull their very own "dreams", such endeavours are inevitably deemed to fail, you cannot leave out of equation your customers. You make your game, or in fact any business, for your customers, not the other way round.

    Typical example is probably most controversial feature - aging of your character. Who is actually attracted to start the game as a warrior to find out that with more you play, less profficient at combat you will be because your character ages? Who is actually interested in permanent death of your character?

    The list can go on and on, the gameis being made of random real-life alike features but no-one is actually asking: Is that what players want? Will they find it fun? Those fundamental questions are not being asked, or in fact thought of, they are sort of side product of game development.

    It is truly an irony when you see people throwing money at kickstarter games in hope the devs will make a game they want, while in fact they are the last developers care about....



    I strongly disagree with that.
    A developers dream abt a game should only be the force that drives him and not what the public wants.
    Afterall you'll be amazed from the zillion opinions of what is the perfect game for everyone.
    If you're close enough to what you like abt a game with what is being produced then you've found yourself a home.
    "We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing"

    Benjamin Franklin
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,822
    I miss the store fronts of SWG. You could even buy a guild hall and create a mall of vendors or have a guild hall as a private house. The lead dev wanted to have a writer profession, that would have been interesting. Great article, thanks.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,292
    The thing about a KS is, it can be looked at as a test for a developer to see if people do in fact want the game they want to make for themselves. I 100% games like COE and CU came from 1 person's dream about a game they wanted to play, their KS's proved that dream is shared by many others. Everyone who backed this did so knowing some of the features aren't "fun" as much as challenging, but in my time spent embedded with the COE community, I'd think challenging is exactly what most of them consider fun. Make sense?
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited June 2016
    erevus said:
    A developers dream abt a game should only be the force that drives him and not what the public wants.
    Good that game development is free...oh wait...

    Seriously....
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited June 2016
    The thing about a KS is, it can be looked at as a test for a developer to see if people do in fact want the game they want to make for themselves.
    Effusive promises and actual game are two very different things, and that is how KS, and developers, make money - from people not understanding the difference.

    KS can't do what you imply.
  • FacelessSaviorFacelessSavior Member UncommonPosts: 177

    Gdemami said:

    Speaking in terms of technology, it might be pulled of.


    While there are very likely still technological issues that should not be underestimated - afterall, SpatialOS has never been implemented in such scope and it is very much untested technology, the main problem imo is the design.

    Many amateur/indie developers try to mimic real-life mechanics but they do not realize, as much as players, how non-fun those mechanics are when implemented - if they are even possible to implement.

    It is almost a stereotype symptom of indie devs - they are not making the game for actual players but to filfull their very own "dreams", such endeavours are inevitably deemed to fail, you cannot leave out of equation your customers. You make your game, or in fact any business, for your customers, not the other way round.

    Typical example is probably most controversial feature - aging of your character. Who is actually attracted to start the game as a warrior to find out that with more you play, less profficient at combat you will be because your character ages? Who is actually interested in permanent death of your character?

    The list can go on and on, the gameis being made of random real-life alike features but no-one is actually asking: Is that what players want? Will they find it fun? Those fundamental questions are not being asked, or in fact thought of, they are sort of side product of game development.

    It is truly an irony when you see people throwing money at kickstarter games in hope the devs will make a game they want, while in fact they are the last developers care about....



    Uhm. I'm quite interested in character aging and atrophy. Truth be told that's not even a new feature. Most of the more complex MUD's back in the day had aging and permadeath and a lot of the stuff COE is attempting to implement, just without graphics. And those were some of the most immersive RP games/virtual worlds I ever had the pleasure of being a part of. I'm a PVP'ing Lars, stuck without a game, waiting for the next Virtual World since SWG. Just because a game or feature doesn't appeal to you, doesn't mean a market doesn't exist.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    FacelessSavior said:
    Just because a game or feature doesn't appeal to you, doesn't mean a market doesn't exist.
    Just because a game or feature appeal to you, doesn't mean a market exist.

    You are not making any point nor sense. Thanks for letting us know..I guess?
  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,292

    Gdemami said:



    The thing about a KS is, it can be looked at as a test for a developer to see if people do in fact want the game they want to make for themselves.


    Effusive promises and actual game are two very different things, and that is how KS, and developers, make money - from people not understanding the difference.

    KS can't do what you imply.



    That is exactly what a KS does. Maybe at first it was a "hey gang lets do this TOGETHER" concept but a KS now is more or less a market test to gauge the audience, collect from them, and (in many cases) use your KS campaign to show bigger investors you have customers and some funding in order to secure more from them (the investors).

    If the game being proposed wasn't desired, it wouldn't fund, that simple. Every backer that puts down money is backing up the intuition and desires of the developer.
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • FacelessSaviorFacelessSavior Member UncommonPosts: 177

    Gdemami said:


    FacelessSavior said:

    Just because a game or feature doesn't appeal to you, doesn't mean a market doesn't exist.



    Just because a game or feature appeal to you, doesn't mean a market exist.



    You are not making any point nor sense. Thanks for letting us know..I guess?



    Sorry. I didn't realize English was a second language for you. Thanks for making the effort to learn! :)
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    That is exactly what a KS does.
    ...and I pointed out why it doesn't.

    You are only proving my point...
  • ishistishist Member UncommonPosts: 212



    Gdemami said:


    FacelessSavior said:

    Just because a game or feature doesn't appeal to you, doesn't mean a market doesn't exist.



    Just because a game or feature appeal to you, doesn't mean a market exist.



    You are not making any point nor sense. Thanks for letting us know..I guess?



    Thanks for letting us know that you didn't understand anything that was written here today. You learned the English language at Trump University didn't you?

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,180
    DMKano said:
    Well sunshine the game has to be made first.

    chances of CoE being completed with ALL promised features working as described without any scalebacks - 0%
    I'd say that there is a hurdle they must overcome before completion.  Defining all the things they are promising in such a way there's not a thousand different interpretations of those definitions they actually intend to implement.  I don't fully understand what the developers are trying to include in this game, because they haven't expressed their ideas clearly.  So far, every idea they have presented comes with a hundred other questions, many of which could drastically alter the game design.  Too many answers to difficult questions seem to be "We haven't decided yet."

    So far, there isn't a consistent, unambiguous set of promised features about this game.  It's all being left up to the communities interpretation of a few basic marketing comments.  EQ:N did almost the exact same thing, and everyone can see how well that worked.  Customer expectations went spiraling wildly out of control.  Even if Daybreak could have produced something to call EQ:N, it would probably have disappointed many of the people who were following the development process.  CoE appears to be verging on a similar path.

    Define the game, build the game, market the game.  In that order, please.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Good article. Hope they can build this thing, and hope it's not just gonna be Medieval RUST.
    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,292

    Gdemami said:



    That is exactly what a KS does.

    ...and I pointed out why it doesn't.

    You are only proving my point...



    How do you know YOU aren't proving MY point?!?! Ha!
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,736
    Welp.......let's see what they can accomplish with 1.3M.
    All those fatures? Yeah, they are going to need money. So, they'll do what all the other Crowd Funded Indie games do. Get some half-assed bullshit skeleton game together and spend the next 9 years in Early Access until no one gives a shit about CoE anymore.
  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 660
    Money says Star Citizen is the game that everyone has been waiting for.
    Baldur's Gate Online - Video Trailer
    * more info, screenshots and videos here

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,736
    Yanocchi said:
    Money says Star Citizen is the game that everyone has been waiting for.
    And waiting for...
    and waiting for...
    and waiting for...
    and waiting for...
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,943
    edited June 2016
    "Beyond the due date I don’t think it’s fair to get overly critical of COE because, like Kickstarter MMOs before it, much of it is still ideas on paper. "


    Wait... what?!?!

    If I say I'm going to make a revolutionary MMO in 18 months and it will have all these ground breaking features, and be done by a new team that has limited experience... on a shoestring budget... you can't criticize me? And the reason you can't is because all the Kickstarter MMOs before it haven't delivered yet?

    That is some screwed up logic...

    Somehow in this world of ours we switched where the burden of proof should fall.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,943




    Gdemami said:






    The thing about a KS is, it can be looked at as a test for a developer to see if people do in fact want the game they want to make for themselves.




    Effusive promises and actual game are two very different things, and that is how KS, and developers, make money - from people not understanding the difference.

    KS can't do what you imply.






    That is exactly what a KS does. Maybe at first it was a "hey gang lets do this TOGETHER" concept but a KS now is more or less a market test to gauge the audience, collect from them, and (in many cases) use your KS campaign to show bigger investors you have customers and some funding in order to secure more from them (the investors).



    If the game being proposed wasn't desired, it wouldn't fund, that simple. Every backer that puts down money is backing up the intuition and desires of the developer.



    The logical fallacy here is the belief that funding somehow equates to a healthy gauge of the audience.

    They only had 10k backers. Those also include people that bought multiple accounts. Those are also the most dedicated fans of the game. Those are also the people that you just gave multiple sparks of life to and even the ones which only received a single spark will not have to give any more revenue to the company until a year AFTER launch.. which is saying 2.5 to 3 years from now.

    I mean.. just think that through. Everyone who was really interested in the game already ponied up. It was only 10k (maybe a bit more now that the KS ended) and ALL of those biggest followers have already purchased gameplay for the next 2.5 to 3 years.

    Does that seem like a sound base to invest in?

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

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