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How compleat and bug free will you tolerate ?

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,030

For all of us waiting for Pantheon, 

We all know how most mmos get released and most often were disappointed.  This is an age old problem that has ALWAYS been hit and miss.  As years go by it's always the same, wait and see.  Often release dates change, some a few days before scheduled.

One thing that always bothers me is when players say " good, it will be that much better ".  Wrong, the way I see it, that means nothing.  You don't know how far it was ever progressing to say a delay will help matters.

With all our experience we all know level of completion and bugs will kill an mmo if not released to an extremely acceptable level.  An mmo WILL FAIL no matter what in my eyes.  Quality is out the door if it's broken, and a three week mega patch will not save it.  Speaking of mega patches fixes, have you really ever seen one ?......I haven't !


My hope and my opinion is Visionary Realms will come true for us.

- Past failures and reputation is on the line.

- Using history of all failures is now aperient.

- No stock holders controlling the when.


This is not Everquest 2, it's not 2004 ( I really enjoyed that game by the way )......Very bad things are not expectable anymore.

Tell us what's your toleration level ?



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Comments

  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,981
    Every mmo will have it's share of issues, both at release and throughout its lifespan. That being said, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is an example of a a game that was unacceptably broken at release. Out of the dozens and dozens of mmo's I've played since 1999, that was the only game that I stopped because the technical issues were game-breaking. 
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,030
    edited May 2016

    I agree,

    Vanguard was pretty bad......But I had the slow time of progressing in the industry on my side....most will not tolerate very much.

    But I do have to say Warhammer Online was bad with its RvR, same with Elders Scrolls Online for mega server bugs.

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,028
    edited May 2016

    My hope and my opinion is Visionary Realms will come true for us.

    - Past failures and reputation is on the line.

    - Using history of all failures is now aperient.

    - No stock holders controlling the when.

    Pantheon has received funding from anonymous investor. It's likely that anonymous investor now controls the company and has the final say when Pantheon is released.

    For an anonymous investor there is no reputation on the line.

    Imho stock holders would be much preferable to an anonymous investor pulling the strings in background.
     
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,944
    My level for bug tolerance varies on how compelling the base gameplay is.

    If I am really liking the base gameplay and am into it my tolerance for bugs is very high.

    However if the base gameplay is a yawnfest for me, every little bug will annoy me because I am already not having a good time.

    Bottom line - it varies depending on how compelling the game is for me
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,030

    I'm hardened too, I've tolerated the earlier mmos, add that graphics don't mean anything to me.

    Core elements can kill some for me like totally broken RvR or Mega servers can still kill a game for me.

    Add that if others quit, this will kill an mmo for me....So others are important too.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,882
    edited May 2016
    As long as the game is "completely" free of spelling errors I'll be fine. ;)

    As mentioned by @DMKano, I am far more tolerant of bugs and issues if I am really enjoying the game play, much less so if I am not.

    Provide live customer service in game to help me get past the errors or complete broken quests or what not (DAOC and Lineage 1 both had this when I started) and I'll be happy to stick with it.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    edited May 2016
    These guys know the risks of launching early. They plan to do extensive testing before launch and don't have to worry about a publisher pushing them to launch early.


  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,424
    Vanguard was still playable, I played it from beta to close. If you want an example of bad then you didn't play Dark & Light. 




  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,944
    edited May 2016
    Vanguard was still playable, I played it from beta to close. If you want an example of bad then you didn't play Dark & Light. 

    I had so much fun in Vanguard (played it for 2 years starting at launch) that I never understood players who complained about it. I was like "are you playing the same game as me?"

    Then again I built a really beefy rig just for Vanguard, and the game ran great on it, sure it had bugs, but the performance was great on my PC.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,800
    The game has to be playable.
  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,981
    DMKano said:
    Vanguard was still playable, I played it from beta to close. If you want an example of bad then you didn't play Dark & Light. 

    I had so much fun in Vanguard (played it for 2 years starting at launch) that I never understood players who complained about it. I was like "are you playing the same game as me?"

    Then again I built a really beefy rig just for Vanguard, and the game ran great on it, sure it had bugs, but the performance was great on my PC.
    The majority of the game's early issues weren't user-end issues, they were game bugs/glitches. It didn't matter what kind of PC you had. I remember trying to loot dead mobs and being unable to because the harvest option would show instead of loot option. I did a quest that involved underwater collection and there was no breathing indicator, then out of nowhere my character died, only to respawn in a completely different area with much higher level mobs. Chunking issues were common. The game was released months too early. Yes, it was technically playable, and many issues were eventually fixed. But at launch it was a mess.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    Unfortunately, Vanguard was not playable at launch for a lot of people. Brad said a huge portion of the people who bought the game never made it past level 1, and it wasn't because it wasn't fun. It was because they couldn't play it.
     
    I too built a PC just to play it, so it wasn't too bad, but it did still lag more than any other game I had played. Other people were crashing out all the time

    Visionary Realms know more than anyone just how crucial it is for the game to be polished and perform well.


  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,126
    edited May 2016

    Kids these days are way to focused on what I consider the non game play parts of games.  Oh the animations suck, ohh the lip syncing is off, oh there was a bug and I fell through the game world and instantly write the game off and give it a scathing review.

    NONE of those things determine if I like or will play a game.  I focus solely on game play components when deciding if I like a game.  So if Pantheon delivers good gameplay I'm in.  The only "me" thing I get hung up on is performance, and that's only because if your good enough to program for a game you should be good enough to know how to program properly and not deliver a poorly running game and call it a day.  I think providing a smooth running game experience goes a long way at making a game enjoyable for long play sessions.

  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,335
    MMO gaming is a niche market that other gamers occasionally dip into.  If we're ever going to keep those players around and in MMO's, then they need to start releasing them relatively bug free.

    If the newest CoD or Assassin's Creed game came out with as many bugs as some recent MMO releases, it would be the end of that series as a hundred thousand people asked for a refund or destroyed the game on social media.

    MMO's, however, always get a pass on releasing buggy, incomplete games for some reason. Oddly, the only one I can remember that didn't get a pass was Age of Conan.  Black Desert Online has had far far far more game play crippling bugs, and not just bugs but actual design features like putting half the important shit on the client.

    But BDO gets a pass and AoC was "the worst release in history!" according to many.  So weird to me.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,392
    It doesn't have to be perfect. But it has to be playable in a form that does not make me want to toss my monitor into the back yard. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,642
    DMKano said:
    Vanguard was still playable, I played it from beta to close. If you want an example of bad then you didn't play Dark & Light. 

    I had so much fun in Vanguard (played it for 2 years starting at launch) that I never understood players who complained about it. I was like "are you playing the same game as me?"

    Then again I built a really beefy rig just for Vanguard, and the game ran great on it, sure it had bugs, but the performance was great on my PC.
    Well all those I played with crashed at every chunk line and every dungeon loading every time, and that was not fixed for months. Not to mention half our guild had to reroll after the first week because our characters had gone into an invalid state and the gm's reply was "it is not fixable".
    Such bugs are pretty devastating, especially the crash on every chunk line was what made me (and others) quit... It is just too frustrating to crash 5 on your way to the group dungeon on top of the already long travel times. 

    The neverwinter auction cheat is one of those bugs that just happens, but that the company didn't do the rollback is also an example of a bug that drove of many players.. It made me quit.

    Eq2 was extremely bugged at launch, and there were several 24h emergency patches and rollbacks the first month. Every raid encounter was broken in some way, and I remember being the first guild to beat them, a gm was needed for most of them to reset, to apply flags, etc.

    Vanguard was a disaster and Eq2 was on the edge, and today I would not have the stamina to endure that level of bugs.
  • MawneeMawnee Member UncommonPosts: 243
    DMKano said:
    Vanguard was still playable, I played it from beta to close. If you want an example of bad then you didn't play Dark & Light. 

    I had so much fun in Vanguard (played it for 2 years starting at launch) that I never understood players who complained about it. I was like "are you playing the same game as me?"

    Then again I built a really beefy rig just for Vanguard, and the game ran great on it, sure it had bugs, but the performance was great on my PC.
    I was in the same boat. I was there all the way through beta and launch. had a top of the line rig and enjoyed the game. Performance wasn't as good as it should be(No SLI support), but more than playable. I was SO pissed when they removed all the great hair options and went to plastic helmets to "optimize".
  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    edited May 2016
    Connectivity and performance of western made MMOs have always been lacking at launch, even the AAA titles and has been tolerated to an extent depending on the hype of the game released but that shit wont fly anymore thanks to so many asian grinders releasing pretty polished on that front.
    So that would be the most important issue.

    Second most important would be customer support in form of GMs fixing the inevitable quest issues for the player base.
    For the strictly PVE crowd broken quests seem to grow from minor annoyance to game breaking issues in a hurry.
    This needs to be dealt with in a timely fashion.

    Hopefully by now investors have learned what's acceptable at launch, they have the statistics and sample size of almost 20 years of failed MMOs as a cautionary tale so if they launch too early, it's on them.

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • User836User836 Member UncommonPosts: 117

    It needs to be playable for fun and not just... playable. Pathfinder Online was "playable" but my playtime was a constant battle against frustration and boredom. It can't just be a working client, it has to be a full game. ALL of the important systems and content need to be in place. Animations and models cannot be placeholder.

    If that is fulfilled I don't very much mind minor bugs though I'd expect only a very minimum chance of disconnects/crashes.

  • Sid_ViciousSid_Vicious Member UncommonPosts: 2,126
    I don't mind a bug here and there so long as it doesn't prevent me from playing.
    Vanguard was still playable, I played it from beta to close. If you want an example of bad then you didn't play Dark & Light. 
    I had a top of the line computer when that game came out, also played it from beta to close . .. and well.. I was unable to walk through doors because of so much lag sometimes and some cities I could not even walk in because the game would crash, or I would get stuck or fall through the world, etc. about a year after release I was finally able to walk through doors and stuff in capital cities on my first try! lol

    I agree that it was still a playable game though and still had a lot of fun... luckily I was able to go to different parts of the map when some parts were unplayable.

    NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

    Watch me play Darkfall and sometimes PVP in other MMORPGs on Twitch.

    Darkfall has launched!!! MAY 5th!! Join before its too late!

    Follow my RP blog here: http://riseofagon.blogspot.com/



  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 486
    edited June 2016
    Crashes and bugs are more important to me than FPS. Nothing makes me lose interest faster than the client crashing and me logging in to finding myself dead. Or maybe a quest bugging and be impossible to complete. S*** like that is like walking into a room full of people with the plague.

    Be that as it may, it's hard, really hard to make good software. It's easy to take for granted. I program a ton. I've programmed for over 20 years. I know bugs will insert themselves into the code no matter what. Still, I expect a certain quality in agame and that means I expect testing. If htey don't test it then don't release it. I test my own code, AT LEAST. Period.

    Performance can be a probelm too. IF it's hard to play the agme because perfomance is hindering you then that can be game killing. However, when I started Wurm Online in 2012 my FPS was about ~5 in the cites and about ~15 in the wilderness. I LOVED it, despite the choppiness making travel harder. I eventually upgraded my video card and my fps jumped up several times. So it's not bad unless the hindrance is signficiant.
  • tokinitokini Member UncommonPosts: 372
    edited June 2016
    game has to playable - 'optimized' i guess is the word peopel use. cant have a vanguard release where it was hit or miss whether your computer would handle the game well or not.

    basic gameplay features like combat and crafting need to be about 99% bug free.

    the systems they have promoted as new, or intrinsic to the gameworld, need to be in place and work perfectly (mana climates, etc)

    if there are no max level raids on release, a few dungeons they planned arent ready, or even if the the level cap is lower than planned for a month or two, then increased, and a high level zone doesnt open till then, i can deal with that.

    i guess what im saying, the game and its main advertised features need to all be in place, and i can wait a bit for some 'content'
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Dullahan said:
    Unfortunately, Vanguard was not playable at launch for a lot of people. Brad said a huge portion of the people who bought the game never made it past level 1, and it wasn't because it wasn't fun. It was because they couldn't play it.
     
    I too built a PC just to play it, so it wasn't too bad, but it did still lag more than any other game I had played. Other people were crashing out all the time

    Visionary Realms know more than anyone just how crucial it is for the game to be polished and perform well.
    Yeah I had a nice rig at the time as well, at times it felt like I couldn't walk 20 feet without getting stuck, falling through, or hung up on terrain. There was also a lot of dysnc going on. 

    That said as an ex SWG player, as well as TES fanboi,  bugs don't really bother me all that much. As long as the game is deep, playable, as well as fun, I have no problem dealing with bugs or other issues.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AcorniaAcornia Member UncommonPosts: 251
    For me to stay with a game it must be fun and enjoyable to play.

    Games that lost me right after they came out:

    Age of Cornan    Released with only the first 20 levels conpleted.  After that it was a royal mess.  Game felt like released a year too soon.

    Starwars the old republic   Lost me due to the game enigne they used.  At start each zone could only hold a max of 24 players.  Due to this and lack of NPCs moving around and no open world star wars feeling decided me to quite and not look back.

    Black Desert Online   Having all important game stats stored on Player mechines instead of server side that has lead to the level of game hacks seen.   All I can say is shame on the devs who made the game.   I would not have them working for me on any projects.
  • Sid_ViciousSid_Vicious Member UncommonPosts: 2,126
    Acornia said:
    For me to stay with a game it must be fun and enjoyable to play.

    Games that lost me right after they came out:

    Age of Cornan    Released with only the first 20 levels conpleted.  After that it was a royal mess.  Game felt like released a year too soon.

    Starwars the old republic   Lost me due to the game enigne they used.  At start each zone could only hold a max of 24 players.  Due to this and lack of NPCs moving around and no open world star wars feeling decided me to quite and not look back.

    Black Desert Online   Having all important game stats stored on Player mechines instead of server side that has lead to the level of game hacks seen.   All I can say is shame on the devs who made the game.   I would not have them working for me on any projects.
    The bugs had been flushed out for those games at release though... I am honestly okay with it being less ready than those were.

    AOC - Only first 20 levels completed?? I never came across that issue but must admit that I spent most of my time on a twink in the first nooby dungeon claiming it for my own ; ) I would have kept playing but Darkfall had come out so... moved on...

    NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

    Watch me play Darkfall and sometimes PVP in other MMORPGs on Twitch.

    Darkfall has launched!!! MAY 5th!! Join before its too late!

    Follow my RP blog here: http://riseofagon.blogspot.com/



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