Another bitter EQ1 or UO vet announcing the genre is dead? How many does that make for this month?
Care to share which game you are playing and for how long?
Just finished two pretty great months with BDO. FFA PvP is not something I'm remotely interested in. I was able to overlook that for a while because the other elements in the game were great but eventually it got to be too much. If they had made a PvE server I would still be playing.
Looking forward to going back to WoW in a few months for the new expansion been playing that game on and off since launch.
Probably going to subscribe to SWTOR in a few days and catch up on the story there.
Currently playing Blade and Soul and gw2.
Oh wait, was that how long comment asking about my old school cred?
Nah, just seeing if I was missing out on something worth being dedicated to.
yes because pve and pvp server need to be separated. give endless grind to pve players and give max gear/level to pvp player in huge battle arena that has pve elements
Failed. Hmm and yet more and more games are coming out that have at least some kind of multiplayer online capability. Interesting.
Yep more and more MOGs are coming out (Multiplayer Online Games).
But MOGs are not MMORPGs, IMHO if you are spending more than 50% of your play time in an instance with a few other players you are in fact playing a MOG. MOBAs are obviously MOGs by this definition, but even the likes of WoW and EQ2 have become MOGs over time. Actual MMORPGs are very rare these days.
They are truly a dying b
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
It might not be dead, and there might be a large quantity to choose from, but the quality has been severely lacking since around 2012.
The last major MMO games, with a modicum of quality, were Swtor, GW2, ESO, FFXIV, etc.
Ever since those titles, we've had AA, B&S, BDO, H1Z1, Skyforge, EoS, WS, Landmark, etc... i mean seriously? To deny that the genre isn't in a slump is to deny reality (ironically).
Star Citizen might be the only upcoming MMO that could give the genre a much needed adrenaline shot, due to all the hype it's generated, and i say this as an SC skeptic/hater.
Don't think the situation is quite as dire as the OP suggests, but its definitely a sad spot we find ourselves in.
Not that dire because all it will take is 1 or 2 of these indie games spending a few million and making back 100x that will bring the triples A studios right back on board. Not that they really matter though, because they will simply emulate the shit out of whatever is succeeding until everyone gets sick of it and the entire process repeats itself.
More than a decade later, MMORPGs are one of the few genres of video game I'm still interested in playing. I think that says a lot about their appeal and relevance today.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
yes because pve and pvp server need to be separated. give endless grind to pve players and give max gear/level to pvp player in huge battle arena that has pve elements
I kinda think that they need more sepration than that, to really work you probably should have different games for them.
At the moment one, the other or both are seriously hurt. PvEers focus a lot on improving stats and gear and usually have a huge powergap but PvP isn't very fun unless most fights are close enough to be interesting and that demands a low powergap. You could use a system similar to GW2s downleveling to get it to work (you probably need a bit more tuning though, downleveling gear to some point as well as stats and HP) but so far have I not seen that in an open world.
Trying to make your game appeal to everyone usually makes no-one really happy, compromizes makes all kinds of gameplay worse.
Arena PvP is easier but it honestly isn't near as fun as PvP in an open world.
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
Oh yeah show us your anger and hostility show us how emotional you get over video games yes let that anger over video games out you go man.
See the the difference is I am intelligent enough to know the Developers indie and big are here to make money. I am also intelligent enough to make my own decisions on what I spend my money on. I am also mature enough where I will never get emotionally involved in video games like you clearly are...so yes you put that all together I'm clearly far superior then those who act like you.
Dude. What hostility? What anger? What emotion? Did I do a emoticon? How do you get this from text? ALL CAPS? I don't recall using them. I simply smacked your ideas in the rear and sent them home. You talked smack, I smacked back. Looks like you are the one with the problem here, not me.
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
Calm down....
What about folks like myself who experienced both, can enjoy both old and new and have accepted shit in life changes? I can tell you one thing, it's better than being bitter and getting this angry over the topic.
Calm down? rofl....you guys try to read into text too much. I don't care about the topic itself, I simply replied to a post I thought was full of crap.
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
Oh yeah show us your anger and hostility show us how emotional you get over video games yes let that anger over video games out you go man.
See the the difference is I am intelligent enough to know the Developers indie and big are here to make money. I am also intelligent enough to make my own decisions on what I spend my money on. I am also mature enough where I will never get emotionally involved in video games like you clearly are...so yes you put that all together I'm clearly far superior then those who act like you.
Dude. What hostility? What anger? What emotion? Did I do a emoticon? How do you get this from text? ALL CAPS? I don't recall using them. I simply smacked your ideas in the rear and sent them home. You talked smack, I smacked back. Looks like you are the one with the problem here, not me.
Yeah crying about how a genre passed you by is really smacking my ideas lol. No the old bitter vets who can't move on from a hobby that passed them by like you are the ones with issues. You know a 6 year old is able to move on from a hobby? It's amazing some grown adults can't they stick around crying on some random forum about how all these games that passed them by are crap. Yeah keep up the smack talk buddy lol.
Many people who enjoy mmorpg are already playing an mmorpg. Even if newer ones come out, they'll still stick with the old ones.
This right here.
Every mmorpg that is lauched gets a slice of the market and players love that game and want to stick to it for a very long time, they even get defensive and attack newer games (you see this a lot with people bashing on BDO for instance).
The publishers have simply had enough of us and now don't make newer games because we just hate on them anyway, we are the worst market to make games for that there is. All these publishers see how we acted to new games and the pleasure many of us took in ripping into games that competed with our titles, they saw the spectacular fails like Wildstar and they saw how tribal we are. The real surprising thing is that people are shocked the developers don't want anything to do with this niche and toxic market anymore, can you really blame them? Instead of being happy that new titles were coming out we all bashed them for anything we could (And the white knight fanboys were just as bad because they fanned the flames), ripped into them and played a big role in bringing some down. We don't deserve new AAA games.
As I've said before though, it really doesn't matter that much because we have a ton of mmorpg titles running and being updated, the mmorpg market is full of games that we can all swap between and enjoy.
The Genre will never die. It may go down in popularity but it can never die as long as there are folks who enjoy it like myself. Its really only Genre I do like. I play FPS randomly, but always come back to MMOs. All it will take is one solid title to revamp the genre.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
yes because pve and pvp server need to be separated. give endless grind to pve players and give max gear/level to pvp player in huge battle arena that has pve elements
PvP alone will never sustain an mmo playerbase. History has shown over and over that an mmo must be fun without PvP for it to be fun with it. Without something worthwhile to fight over like progression, it just gets boring.
Most players who enjoy PvP also enjoy good PvE. At this point it can be established that tiny subset of players that remain in PvP games after everyone else has left(see Darkfall, see Mortal Online etc) do not represent the majority but only the vocal minority.
Lobo, I am an old gamer who couldn't agree with you more. MMO's are my favorite genre. Having played UO, EQ, WoW, SWG, etc and lots more, I have been so critical of many new MMO's and won't buy them because they don't advance the genre. I had TOTALLY lost faith that any company could do better.... Then one day someone restored that faith.... Jeremy Walsh from Chronicles of Elyria.
But this is exactly what I am talking about.
CoE is perhaps the only one pushing the genre forward. But you can not make such game with 2 million dollars.
I wave worked on mobile game resembling Puzzle&Dragons , and it cost 2 million dollars.
It was maybe 0.01% of scope of Elyra.
Who ever supported CoE will get very rude awakening sooner or later. It just can not be done.
It's definitely on a downward trend right now. Reason being is because life is hard right now on too many people. It isn't easy to balance an MMORPG with work and family, people need to work two jobs to make end's meat. More people are going for graduate degrees to compete in the market, etc etc. Nobody has free time anymore.
Games that you can pick up and play and have reasonable amounts of fun are what's popular right now because of this. Games that are Free (or very inexpensive) are also popular because of this.
MMORPG's fit neither category. They are time intensive and generally expensive as well. But MMOs (many that aren't RPGs as well) do show reasonable popularity. H1Z1, Destiny, WoW, World of Tanks, Runescape, The Division, Lineage II, Ark, Rust, GW2, EvE, Black Desert, Blade and Soul etc. All maintain popularity right now and are some of the top games on twitch. Some aren't HUGE, but they maintain a steady presence.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
While I do understand some people's despair at the direction some MMOs and companies have turned towards, I will never agree with the "MMOs are dying/dead" thread-o'-the-week..
As long as there are games.. the need for entertainment.. and more than 100k people on the planet Earth.. massive multi-player games will just continue to be born.. The inherent need for people to gather, socialize, or compete will keep MMO game evolution going..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
While I do understand some people's despair at the direction some MMOs and companies have turned towards, I will never agree with the "MMOs are dying/dead" thread-o'-the-week..
As long as there are games.. the need for entertainment.. and more than 100k people on the planet Earth.. massive multi-player games will just continue to be born.. The inherent need for people to gather, socialize, or compete will keep MMO game evolution going..
I think they specifically talking about MMORPGs, not MMOs.
I agree with the OP. And all these kickstarter games are pretty niche. Non of them will have large playerbases in them. The small indie companies are the ones keeping the genre alive. If it wasn't for them the genre would have almost died out for sure.
I loved MMORPGs. I still really like the genre. But I haven't played any for a long time.
Why?
Because they're crap.
- They're pay2win fests. Basically each MMORPG has a slider, that reads "no fun / no money" on one end, and "hundreds of $$$ and quite some fun" on the other. You can move the slider around as you like. The problem is: in no position it's worth it. A crappy free game is not worth my time, nor is paying hundreds of $$$ for a game. - They're often technologically behind recent games of other genres. NPCs stand around like statues all day and night long, the mobs have basically no AI whatsoever. - They're boring as %§$%. The quests are bland and soporific, the grind is hell, the classes and skills are basically the same as always. - As boring and grindy as the PvE is, is the PvP dictated by the cash shop. Pay more, win more.
I like the genre, but why should I put up with that?
If I want PvP, I much rather play something that is balanced and not as P2W, such as DOTA2 or TF2 or whatnot. If I want PvE, I play something that has a decent storyline and quests.
I like MMORPGs, but I don't play them anymore, because they suck imo.
And another word to that F2P nonsense: basically "F2P" means this: create an average game, then add lots of barriers and obstacles that make it worse and that can only be removed by paying money. No thanks. It's as if I go to see a movie for free in the cinema, and suddenly the image is blurry, the audio is missing, somebody kicks my chair, the image gets blurry and so on, and I have to pay for each of those annoyances to stop.
I rather pay some money upfront and have some quality service than getting crap for free.
Comments
@craftseeker. I can see why many people believe that MMORPG's are dying and I don't necessarily disagree.
However the OP"s first paragraph discusses how he was sure that online multiplayer play was the future and then discusses how it failed.
It hasn't, it is overwhelmingly successfull and will continue that way. Just MMORPG part of online mulitplayer play is having a blip.
The last major MMO games, with a modicum of quality, were Swtor, GW2, ESO, FFXIV, etc.
Ever since those titles, we've had AA, B&S, BDO, H1Z1, Skyforge, EoS, WS, Landmark, etc... i mean seriously? To deny that the genre isn't in a slump is to deny reality (ironically).
Star Citizen might be the only upcoming MMO that could give the genre a much needed adrenaline shot, due to all the hype it's generated, and i say this as an SC skeptic/hater.
Not that dire because all it will take is 1 or 2 of these indie games spending a few million and making back 100x that will bring the triples A studios right back on board. Not that they really matter though, because they will simply emulate the shit out of whatever is succeeding until everyone gets sick of it and the entire process repeats itself.
Many people who enjoy mmorpg are already playing an mmorpg. Even if newer ones come out, they'll still stick with the old ones.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Even Blizz ditches the classical mmorpg design, and made an online shooter.
At the moment one, the other or both are seriously hurt. PvEers focus a lot on improving stats and gear and usually have a huge powergap but PvP isn't very fun unless most fights are close enough to be interesting and that demands a low powergap. You could use a system similar to GW2s downleveling to get it to work (you probably need a bit more tuning though, downleveling gear to some point as well as stats and HP) but so far have I not seen that in an open world.
Trying to make your game appeal to everyone usually makes no-one really happy, compromizes makes all kinds of gameplay worse.
Arena PvP is easier but it honestly isn't near as fun as PvP in an open world.
Every mmorpg that is lauched gets a slice of the market and players love that game and want to stick to it for a very long time, they even get defensive and attack newer games (you see this a lot with people bashing on BDO for instance).
The publishers have simply had enough of us and now don't make newer games because we just hate on them anyway, we are the worst market to make games for that there is. All these publishers see how we acted to new games and the pleasure many of us took in ripping into games that competed with our titles, they saw the spectacular fails like Wildstar and they saw how tribal we are. The real surprising thing is that people are shocked the developers don't want anything to do with this niche and toxic market anymore, can you really blame them? Instead of being happy that new titles were coming out we all bashed them for anything we could (And the white knight fanboys were just as bad because they fanned the flames), ripped into them and played a big role in bringing some down. We don't deserve new AAA games.
As I've said before though, it really doesn't matter that much because we have a ton of mmorpg titles running and being updated, the mmorpg market is full of games that we can all swap between and enjoy.
https://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/understanding-mmo-retention/
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
Most players who enjoy PvP also enjoy good PvE. At this point it can be established that tiny subset of players that remain in PvP games after everyone else has left(see Darkfall, see Mortal Online etc) do not represent the majority but only the vocal minority.
CoE is perhaps the only one pushing the genre forward. But you can not make such game with 2 million dollars.
I wave worked on mobile game resembling Puzzle&Dragons , and it cost 2 million dollars.
It was maybe 0.01% of scope of Elyra.
Who ever supported CoE will get very rude awakening sooner or later. It just can not be done.
Games that you can pick up and play and have reasonable amounts of fun are what's popular right now because of this. Games that are Free (or very inexpensive) are also popular because of this.
MMORPG's fit neither category. They are time intensive and generally expensive as well. But MMOs (many that aren't RPGs as well) do show reasonable popularity. H1Z1, Destiny, WoW, World of Tanks, Runescape, The Division, Lineage II, Ark, Rust, GW2, EvE, Black Desert, Blade and Soul etc. All maintain popularity right now and are some of the top games on twitch. Some aren't HUGE, but they maintain a steady presence.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
As long as there are games.. the need for entertainment.. and more than 100k people on the planet Earth.. massive multi-player games will just continue to be born.. The inherent need for people to gather, socialize, or compete will keep MMO game evolution going..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
Why?
Because they're crap.
- They're pay2win fests. Basically each MMORPG has a slider, that reads "no fun / no money" on one end, and "hundreds of $$$ and quite some fun" on the other. You can move the slider around as you like. The problem is: in no position it's worth it. A crappy free game is not worth my time, nor is paying hundreds of $$$ for a game.
- They're often technologically behind recent games of other genres. NPCs stand around like statues all day and night long, the mobs have basically no AI whatsoever.
- They're boring as %§$%. The quests are bland and soporific, the grind is hell, the classes and skills are basically the same as always.
- As boring and grindy as the PvE is, is the PvP dictated by the cash shop. Pay more, win more.
I like the genre, but why should I put up with that?
If I want PvP, I much rather play something that is balanced and not as P2W, such as DOTA2 or TF2 or whatnot.
If I want PvE, I play something that has a decent storyline and quests.
I like MMORPGs, but I don't play them anymore, because they suck imo.
And another word to that F2P nonsense: basically "F2P" means this: create an average game, then add lots of barriers and obstacles that make it worse and that can only be removed by paying money.
No thanks. It's as if I go to see a movie for free in the cinema, and suddenly the image is blurry, the audio is missing, somebody kicks my chair, the image gets blurry and so on, and I have to pay for each of those annoyances to stop.
I rather pay some money upfront and have some quality service than getting crap for free.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)