So what do you expect to happen in this scenario? If we replace the un-flagged player with a flagged player the situation doesn't change. Regardless of the player's flag status you're going to die in one hit anyway. The flag system has nothing to do with it.
PVP and PVE aren't exclusive clubs. Don't bitch about getting attacked if you choose to flag for PVP.
So what do you expect to happen in this scenario? If we replace the un-flagged player with a flagged player the situation doesn't change. Regardless of the player's flag status you're going to die in one hit anyway. The flag system has nothing to do with it.
PVP and PVE aren't exclusive clubs. Don't bitch about getting attacked if you choose to flag for PVP.
That scenario was just one you can take another one where 5 unflagged PvE guys walk up the street and when they walk by the PvP flagged guy they all flag PvP and gank him, then they remove flag and goes back to be PvE players.
So what do you expect to happen in this scenario? If we replace the un-flagged player with a flagged player the situation doesn't change. Regardless of the player's flag status you're going to die in one hit anyway. The flag system has nothing to do with it.
PVP and PVE aren't exclusive clubs. Don't bitch about getting attacked if you choose to flag for PVP.
If the guy had to be flagged when entering that scenario then the guy that got back stabbed might have seen the flagged player and could have reacted.
Being able to turn on and off PvP flag in a second is a really bad flag system.
Only weak lame excuses of PvP players prefer such a system.
Flag PvP and stay PvP if you are interested in PvP.
My fave pvp design of all time was UT99,it offered a complete FAIR system.For the skill aspect it allowed for skills of all kinds to be successful,example map layouts,cover,prediction,movement,escape ,weapon choices,twitch,deception etc etc,i have yet to see another game bring all of the aspects of pvp together like UT99 did.
Now it seems almost every single genre is doing what i call LURING players into spending and longevity rather than simple skill and fun.They allow even the weakest pvp players a chance by allowing unfair advantages such as spending money to bonuses to in this example a PVE player able to pvp for free with no risk.
The BIG picture is that devs are more about $$$$ than great game design,everything they do revolves around making the most potential money.In this case they hope to garner more players by allowing both PVE and PVP to co exist,they hope to have more pvp by allowing PVEr's to pvp for free which should keep the pvp players more interested.In reality "because" of such shotty designs,you would figure that MOST flagged for pvp already have distinct advantages over most other players ,so they have little to fear from a PVE flagged Ramajama said:
OP, is there actually a single player that agrees with your logic? It seems you like you were laughed at official forums so you came here to whine about it.
I for one, have no idea what you are complaining about. PvP flagged player got killed by another player = that is exactly what is supposed to happen.
Ummm YOUR logic is the one i lol@ and is flawed big time.You try and simplify your logic by simplifying what pvp is all about.I just described why uT99 pvp was great and NO where in there did i mention it is to simply kill another player.
I agree 100% with the OP,if you are to allow PVE players protection via "flagging" you do NOT allow abuse or the ability to EXPLOIT the system and that is exactly what this is.A FAIR system would be to have the PVE player flag pvp if he wants that otherwise he is exploiting a terrible design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Not so fucking funny when you're on the receiving end, is it? Griefing assholes have done this to PvE players in MMOs ever since UO, possibly sooner. PvE players complain, you use some pithy saying, like "PvP happened!", or "Git gud!" and call them carebears. Fuck, even in your whiny posts, you call them carebears... even though the one whining about PvP is YOU!
Cry me a fucking river. I have absolutely no sympathy for you or anyone this happens to, and your logic is patently ridiculous. You flag yourself for PvP in the world, you get killed, and you come here and whine that it's somehow not fair. Grow up and take it like a man, or turn your flag off before heading out to PvE for a while. Problem solved.
Oh, and maybe you should try to, "git gud!" too.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Kudos to you and thank you for saving me the time.
/continues to quietly chomp on my popcorn while reading this delicious thread with the PvP gankers drowning in their alligator tears ...
Yes this is truly funny the so called PvP players always do this . They only fight when they have an advantage like when you are at low hp. That the OP is complaining about this is hilarious.
What you and the rest are failing to understand is that when pkr goes for the kill he is vunerable to bring attack in a open pvp environment.
What you have here in SOTA (WoW pve servers) is a situation where the "pver" could be standing right next to the person (flagged pvpr) completely immune to attack. Waiting while talking shit even. Again completely immune.
You get it now?
Again, if it's a pve player then they're not interested in getting into the pvp mix. Nope, what you're describing is a smart pvp player waiting for the opportune moment and then going in for the kill.
Anytime you see others on the screen in a pvp game the smart pvp player takes into account the possibility that those players or mobs will be a problem. If you don't think you can take a kill down with what is on the screen then you should think twice about hitting "Go". If you don't have an escape plan if it all goes south then be prepared to deal with the consequences.
What the OP wants is ezmode pvp. There's lots of that out there in safe pvp only zones where you know if people are red or not. There is battlezone pvp. Some games have flag timers.
Personally I'm not a fan of this type of pvp system and I won't be flagging. PvP in most mmos is total rubbish now and better suited for the moba.
Nah your the one that want easy mode PvP. Only flag when you have sneaked up on a PvP flagged player and when he have low life get in a couple of free hits befoore he can react, then unflag and become safe instantly.
My version of PvP is when flagged you stay flagged for a longer time, you can't unflag PvP in lets say 30 minutes to an hour.
Flagging PvP should also be done at a sort of neutral place beforehand you enter open world PvP and not when you have sneaked up to a flagged PvP player with 1hp to get a easy kill.
That was how it was done in UO, you flagged PvP and all the others that was flagged PvP had a chance detecting and fighting you.
What everyone is trying to tell you is that as a PvP flagged player you should assume ALL PLAYERS to be flagged for PvP, whether they are flagged for PvP or not. When fighting PvE mobs and at almost zero health, it makes no difference whether an approaching player is an enabled PvP player or a PvE player who has yet to flag up for PvP. One has to assume that in both instances the approaching player is a PvP player. Why? Because its not a PvE game, its a PvX game that allows for FFA OWPvP. In both instances, you will still be dead.
The lesson to take away from this thread is that when flagged for PvP one should be aware of their surroundings, and especially when fighting PvE mobs and nearing zero health. Failing to do so doesn't make you a victim of unfair PvP, it makes you a dumb PvPer. The overwhelming majority of posters in this thread aren't disagreeing with you because they don't like you, they are disagreeing with you because your argument is flawed. Stop, listen and learn something.
I remember the flag system from SWG. There was a timer if you got flagged for attacking a flagged player or an enemy factioned NPC. I believe the timer was 5 minutes.
Of course a player could set himself as permanently flagged, or if he/she chose to, could turn it off and get the 5 minute timer.
Flags that can be toggled on and off is a horrible PvP system.
I would agree with this if the rules where differently applied to one player over another. That is not, however, the case as all players have an equal ability to utilize the system to their advantage when ever the opportunity arises. In such a system the decision of when, or when not to, flag is obviously a critical tactical component of the PvP system. The implication of such a system should be to assume that all players are PvP enabled, whether they show flagged for PvP or not. Its just a matter of being flexible and adjusting one's play style to a game's prevailing PvP game play mechanics.
Flags that can be toggled on and off is a horrible PvP system.
I don't agree! Flags is a way to introduce PvP to new players. It's a way to tempt into attacking other players.
You get the 5 minute timer if you do, and I bet for someone who is new to the PvP scene, that 5 minutes while running to hide is enough to get addicted to the feeling it creates.
3 settings to flags.
1. Always off. There is no way you can attack or be attacked by a factioned NPC or Flagged Player.
2. Temporary Flagged. Off to begin with but a 5 minute timer is started if you make a hostile action against a factioned NPC or a Flagged Player.
3. Always flagged until switched off. If you switch off then you recieve the 5 minute timer before you return to selection 1 or 2.
PvP flagging should be secondary to guild vs. guild or faction vs. faction PvP.
In such a system, like UO Factions or countless other examples, you were always "flagged" against opponents from other factions/enemy guild you were at war with.
Straight up open world PK style "going red" ala UO is a an archaic system.
As I understand it, SOTA features PvP zones as well as a guild vs. guild system in addition to the flagging system?
It seems what SOTA has done is shift the initiative from the attacker to the defender.
Traditionally, you'd only "flag" for PvP if you performed a hostile action, such as attack someone who was not flagged as a PK.
This system is ripe for "griefing" as the burden of initiative/surprise is on the attacker.
A modern example is the Dark Zone in the Division, you go Rogue (PK) by attacking a fellow player, but do not flag as a Rogue if you attack someone who is already flagged.
SOTA appears, as described, to require someone to toggle PvP on to be attackable, which is kind of the "come at me bro" approach quite often in more PvE oriented games like a WoW PvE server.
So you can't initiate attack against someone who isn't flagged for PvP already.
This method shifts the risk/danger to the PK, as they openly invite attack at any time from anybody.
It's the baiting or as I like to call it "come at me bro" style. You flag yourself to challenge others to try and take you on, then (if you're good) punish them for thinking they can take you.
I can understand why PK noobs & cowards dislike it - it removes the initiative from the PK and makes them play and think defensively and strategically.
Most PK are far more comfortable sitting in the shadows and ganking low health PvE players. They have the initiative, they have the control, they have far less risk. It's easy mode.
SOTA seems to think (as I do) that the burden and difficulty/challenge & thus risk should be on the aggressor (PK) as such a system allows for PvE to progress unhindered.
The "classic" PK system does not allow for unhindered PvE, as a PK can chose to involve a PvE player in PvP.
Temporary PvP flags are a horrible mechanic. Why not just have an instanced battleground then? OpenWorld and flagging is a bad mix.
Open world with PvP as a choice anywhere? How is that bad? Those who like PvP can when and where they want. Those who like PvP when an opportunity is given can do it when they like and those who prefer PvE can do it all the time with no risk of being involved. However, their advantage is that they maybe get to watch some really cool PvP fights. Who knows, they might try it.
We can all live together in a huge world without the need to be forced into isolated areas. SWG was amazing!
Temporary PvP flags are a horrible mechanic. Why not just have an instanced battleground then? OpenWorld and flagging is a bad mix.
Open world with PvP as a choice anywhere? How is that bad? Those who like PvP can when and where they want. Those who like PvP when an opportunity is given can do it when they like and those who prefer PvE can do it all the time with no risk of being involved. However, their advantage is that they maybe get to watch some really cool PvP fights. Who knows, they might try it.
We can all live together in a huge world without the need to be forced into isolated areas. SWG was amazing!
I agree, a flag/TEF system is just so much more "MMO" than something instanced. MMOs need open world content, open world PvE & PvP to feel like MMOs, it is what makes the genre unique (or at least used to) when compared to your standard RPGs, mobas, shooters, etc.
I think faction & guild war systems, with a restrictive PK/anti-PK flagging system (that favors the anti-PK) is the best way to do PvP in MMOs, really the only way to do it "right."
PK favored tagging systems are prone to abuse and the PvE population (much larger %) hates it.
SWG (and apparently SOTA) were/are doing it right.
Getting jumped in the wild by 2 rebels (OK, no issue there)
Finding one of them a short time later in town
By the time I get in range to attack the rebel scum's "timer" expires and his flag switches
He becomes "covert" and I can't attack him because supposedly his identity as rebel scum is now magically secret.
"Covert" rebel scum is now dancing around me laughing the whole time.
FFA Open World is great Faction based PvP is great as it doesn't change Instanced BG is not my cup of tea but at least it's consistent (not a huge fan of Esports in my RPGs)
Temporary flagging in Open World is silly to me.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Flags that can be toggled on and off is a horrible PvP system.Slapshot1188 said:
Flags that can be toggled on and off is a horrible PvP system.
Agree.
It's a system for players that lack the balls to stay flagged over time. It fit the carebears very well though since being PvP flagged is something i can instantly turn off i meet a tough opposition and the griefing part of it fit the wannabe PvP players.
It is a flag system for the casual PvP player not the hardcore one.
Getting jumped in the wild by 2 rebels (OK, no issue there)
Finding one of them a short time later in town
By the time I get in range to attack the rebel scum's "timer" expires and his flag switches
He becomes "covert" and I can't attack him because supposedly his identity as rebel scum is now magically secret.
"Covert" rebel scum is now dancing around me laughing the whole time.
FFA Open World is great Faction based PvP is great as it doesn't change Instanced BG is not my cup of tea but at least it's consistent (not a huge fan of Esports in my RPGs)
Temporary flagging in Open World is silly to me.
What a awful PvP flag system.
Players that like such a system wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes in real hardcore PvP games like old UO.
They would have ended up in trammel cause they are wannabe PvP players, more like a PK griefer then PvP player.
Flags that can be toggled on and off is a horrible PvP system.Slapshot1188 said:
Flags that can be toggled on and off is a horrible PvP system.
Agree.
It's a system for players that lack the balls to stay flagged over time. It fit the carebears very well though since being PvP flagged is something i can instantly turn off i meet a tough opposition and the griefing part of it fit the wannabe PvP players.
It is a flag system for the casual PvP player not the hardcore one.
There is no "instant" switch to no PvP flag. Now, I don't know how Shroud of the Avatar does it, but there needs to be a timer before the flag goes away and if it currently is an instant switch, I am sure that will change. The game is not released yet.
Getting jumped in the wild by 2 rebels (OK, no issue there)
Finding one of them a short time later in town
By the time I get in range to attack the rebel scum's "timer" expires and his flag switches
He becomes "covert" and I can't attack him because supposedly his identity as rebel scum is now magically secret.
"Covert" rebel scum is now dancing around me laughing the whole time.
FFA Open World is great Faction based PvP is great as it doesn't change Instanced BG is not my cup of tea but at least it's consistent (not a huge fan of Esports in my RPGs)
Temporary flagging in Open World is silly to me.
What a awful PvP flag system.
Players that like such a system wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes in real hardcore PvP games like old UO.
They would have ended up in trammel cause they are wannabe PvP players, more like a PK griefer then PvP player.
LOL!
Ok, in a as you call it "real hardcore" PvP game, I hear you fight the same people all the time? Doesn't that get boring? In a open world with the TEF system you get a bunch more people who PvP. That sounds a lot more fun to me, and it was, in SWG.
Players that like such a system wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes in real hardcore PvP games like old UO.
They would have ended up in trammel cause they are wannabe PvP players, more like a PK griefer then PvP player.
How clueless does someone need to be to say things like that when trying to persuade others that their system is better.
Who the fuck would even want to be in the same game with someone with that attitude?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Getting jumped in the wild by 2 rebels (OK, no issue there)
Finding one of them a short time later in town
By the time I get in range to attack the rebel scum's "timer" expires and his flag switches
He becomes "covert" and I can't attack him because supposedly his identity as rebel scum is now magically secret.
"Covert" rebel scum is now dancing around me laughing the whole time.
FFA Open World is great Faction based PvP is great as it doesn't change Instanced BG is not my cup of tea but at least it's consistent (not a huge fan of Esports in my RPGs)
Temporary flagging in Open World is silly to me.
What a awful PvP flag system.
Players that like such a system wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes in real hardcore PvP games like old UO.
They would have ended up in trammel cause they are wannabe PvP players, more like a PK griefer then PvP player.
LOL!
Ok, in a as you call it "real hardcore" PvP game, I hear you fight the same people all the time? Doesn't that get boring? In a open world with the TEF system you get a bunch more people who PvP. That sounds a lot more fun to me, and it was, in SWG.
Same people? I understand you have no experience from real PvP games but in felucca UO there was many thousands of PvP players that had flagged PvP and stayed PvP.
There was no griefing 1 second switch to PvP in UO, such a system if for carebears and wannabe PvP players.
Players that like such a system wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes in real hardcore PvP games like old UO.
They would have ended up in trammel cause they are wannabe PvP players, more like a PK griefer then PvP player.
How clueless does someone need to be to say things like that when trying to persuade others that their system is better.
Who the fuck would even want to be in the same game with someone with that attitude?
You actually think i wan't anything to do with these carebears in any game?
SOTA is a carebear game and it is good that the hardcore PvP players that enjoyed old UO that Garriott was part of not believe in his words that this is a spiritual successor to UO. This game have nothing with UO to do.
That is why information about the status of the game get revealed so players know what they are buying. You know that is one part why forums exists and why people read them, pretty much as reviews over at steam.
Comments
PVP and PVE aren't exclusive clubs. Don't bitch about getting attacked if you choose to flag for PVP.
A laughable flag system.
Being able to turn on and off PvP flag in a second is a really bad flag system.
Only weak lame excuses of PvP players prefer such a system.
Flag PvP and stay PvP if you are interested in PvP.
I ended this thread on the first page.
Now it seems almost every single genre is doing what i call LURING players into spending and longevity rather than simple skill and fun.They allow even the weakest pvp players a chance by allowing unfair advantages such as spending money to bonuses to in this example a PVE player able to pvp for free with no risk.
The BIG picture is that devs are more about $$$$ than great game design,everything they do revolves around making the most potential money.In this case they hope to garner more players by allowing both PVE and PVP to co exist,they hope to have more pvp by allowing PVEr's to pvp for free which should keep the pvp players more interested.In reality "because" of such shotty designs,you would figure that MOST flagged for pvp already have distinct advantages over most other players ,so they have little to fear from a PVE flagged
Ramajama said:
Ummm YOUR logic is the one i lol@ and is flawed big time.You try and simplify your logic by simplifying what pvp is all about.I just described why uT99 pvp was great and NO where in there did i mention it is to simply kill another player.
I agree 100% with the OP,if you are to allow PVE players protection via "flagging" you do NOT allow abuse or the ability to EXPLOIT the system and that is exactly what this is.A FAIR system would be to have the PVE player flag pvp if he wants that otherwise he is exploiting a terrible design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Kudos to you and thank you for saving me the time.
/continues to quietly chomp on my popcorn while reading this delicious thread with the PvP gankers drowning in their alligator tears ...
Irony at its best lol
What everyone is trying to tell you is that as a PvP flagged player you should assume ALL PLAYERS to be flagged for PvP, whether they are flagged for PvP or not. When fighting PvE mobs and at almost zero health, it makes no difference whether an approaching player is an enabled PvP player or a PvE player who has yet to flag up for PvP. One has to assume that in both instances the approaching player is a PvP player. Why? Because its not a PvE game, its a PvX game that allows for FFA OWPvP. In both instances, you will still be dead.
The lesson to take away from this thread is that when flagged for PvP one should be aware of their surroundings, and especially when fighting PvE mobs and nearing zero health. Failing to do so doesn't make you a victim of unfair PvP, it makes you a dumb PvPer. The overwhelming majority of posters in this thread aren't disagreeing with you because they don't like you, they are disagreeing with you because your argument is flawed. Stop, listen and learn something.
Of course a player could set himself as permanently flagged, or if he/she chose to, could turn it off and get the 5 minute timer.
The best system there was if you ask me.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I would agree with this if the rules where differently applied to one player over another. That is not, however, the case as all players have an equal ability to utilize the system to their advantage when ever the opportunity arises. In such a system the decision of when, or when not to, flag is obviously a critical tactical component of the PvP system. The implication of such a system should be to assume that all players are PvP enabled, whether they show flagged for PvP or not. Its just a matter of being flexible and adjusting one's play style to a game's prevailing PvP game play mechanics.
You get the 5 minute timer if you do, and I bet for someone who is new to the PvP scene, that 5 minutes while running to hide is enough to get addicted to the feeling it creates.
3 settings to flags.
1. Always off. There is no way you can attack or be attacked by a factioned NPC or Flagged Player.
2. Temporary Flagged. Off to begin with but a 5 minute timer is started if you make a hostile action against a factioned NPC or a Flagged Player.
3. Always flagged until switched off. If you switch off then you recieve the 5 minute timer before you return to selection 1 or 2.
This is perfect for everyone, even new players.
In such a system, like UO Factions or countless other examples, you were always "flagged" against opponents from other factions/enemy guild you were at war with.
Straight up open world PK style "going red" ala UO is a an archaic system.
As I understand it, SOTA features PvP zones as well as a guild vs. guild system in addition to the flagging system?
It seems what SOTA has done is shift the initiative from the attacker to the defender.
Traditionally, you'd only "flag" for PvP if you performed a hostile action, such as attack someone who was not flagged as a PK.
This system is ripe for "griefing" as the burden of initiative/surprise is on the attacker.
A modern example is the Dark Zone in the Division, you go Rogue (PK) by attacking a fellow player, but do not flag as a Rogue if you attack someone who is already flagged.
SOTA appears, as described, to require someone to toggle PvP on to be attackable, which is kind of the "come at me bro" approach quite often in more PvE oriented games like a WoW PvE server.
So you can't initiate attack against someone who isn't flagged for PvP already.
This method shifts the risk/danger to the PK, as they openly invite attack at any time from anybody.
It's the baiting or as I like to call it "come at me bro" style. You flag yourself to challenge others to try and take you on, then (if you're good) punish them for thinking they can take you.
I can understand why PK noobs & cowards dislike it - it removes the initiative from the PK and makes them play and think defensively and strategically.
Most PK are far more comfortable sitting in the shadows and ganking low health PvE players. They have the initiative, they have the control, they have far less risk. It's easy mode.
SOTA seems to think (as I do) that the burden and difficulty/challenge & thus risk should be on the aggressor (PK) as such a system allows for PvE to progress unhindered.
The "classic" PK system does not allow for unhindered PvE, as a PK can chose to involve a PvE player in PvP.
SOTA made a wise choice.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
We can all live together in a huge world without the need to be forced into isolated areas. SWG was amazing!
I think faction & guild war systems, with a restrictive PK/anti-PK flagging system (that favors the anti-PK) is the best way to do PvP in MMOs, really the only way to do it "right."
PK favored tagging systems are prone to abuse and the PvE population (much larger %) hates it.
SWG (and apparently SOTA) were/are doing it right.
What ruined it was:
FFA Open World is great
Faction based PvP is great as it doesn't change
Instanced BG is not my cup of tea but at least it's consistent (not a huge fan of Esports in my RPGs)
Temporary flagging in Open World is silly to me.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Players that like such a system wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes in real hardcore PvP games like old UO.
They would have ended up in trammel cause they are wannabe PvP players, more like a PK griefer then PvP player.
Ok, in a as you call it "real hardcore" PvP game, I hear you fight the same people all the time? Doesn't that get boring? In a open world with the TEF system you get a bunch more people who PvP. That sounds a lot more fun to me, and it was, in SWG.
Who the fuck would even want to be in the same game with someone with that attitude?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There was no griefing 1 second switch to PvP in UO, such a system if for carebears and wannabe PvP players.
SwG PvP system sounds awful.
SOTA is a carebear game and it is good that the hardcore PvP players that enjoyed old UO that Garriott was part of not believe in his words that this is a spiritual successor to UO. This game have nothing with UO to do.
That is why information about the status of the game get revealed so players know what they are buying. You know that is one part why forums exists and why people read them, pretty much as reviews over at steam.
You seem a bit clueless.