Fuzzy Math scares me

Shodanas · May 2016

Drakmar said:

rodarin said:
But once again money raised DOES NOT correlate to anything, nor do I think it will cause anything.

Then how the hell are you so sure they don't have sufficient funds, or that the project will not get finished ?

I swear people, speculate, contrive, fictionalize all kinds of crap but they NEVER have any proof to back it up !

You're new here.

Whatever the anti SC squad states is an axiom. And as we learned in math axioms are taken to be true without the need of proving a given statement.

filmoret · May 2016

Shodanas said:

filmoret said:

Shodanas said:

filmoret said:

Shodanas said:

filmoret said:

howstupidisthis said:

filmoret said:

Drakmar said:

filmoret said:

maybebaked said:

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

Maybe read a little of the thread next time. Not to mention it is equally hilarious people throw more money and never ask where it went or if it works.

What difference does it make to you how anyone spends their money ?

Your boy Derek claims to have made a million dollars designing games, yet all of his games are bug-ridden messes and no player base can be found in any of them. That said.... Ask Derek where is "minimum viable product" is for all those who wasted their money on his game's, not one of them a viable product !

You can say what you want but bottom line is that anything to do with the business end of the product is none of your business period. If you paid money for the game that's all you deserve to get. How they get there is none of yours or my business.

After all the stuff Derek has said... I don't know anyone who takes that guy seriously any more. But honestly anyone who wants to know the truth can realize that CIG has messed up royally. That does not mean they won't deliver a product but they have caused a 6 million dollar game turn into something that costs more then 100 million and still not delivered. Then they have spun everything to make it look like the 6 million dollar game has added scope and now it should cost over 65 million. But when you look at what was promised in the original scope and what was added. Well if you can see that much idk how anyone can take CIG seriously either.

Nobody in their right mind expects SC to be released already, the scope has grown considerably.
Naysayers should note, Wildstar took 9 years to make and millions of dollars and it's already going F2P.
They lost millions, but the naysayers wont to talk about it.

The reason is simple, Chris Roberts and CIG are not establishment and they don't have to cater to whiners and fools, which is really pissing off the current population of entitlement gamers.

Really the scope has grown considerably? What was added that costs over 40 million? Publishing the game I understand could cost 10 mil but thats way back at the 20 million mark. Don't list all the planets and ships because that really isnt adding to the scope. Don't list alien languages or bobble heads thats kinda lame. What exactly was added to the game that caused the scope to increase? Something they actually raised money for and not something hidden like the 64 bit conversion. Which would cost at least 20 million but it isn't listed as one of the stretch goals...

And don't respond with a bunch of fluff give us something that makes sense.

Stop pretending ignorance. You're doing this all to often here, obviously in lack of any serious argument.

The project shown on the KS has absolutely nothing to do with the project being developed now both in scope and complexity.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals

The link is broken... Probably because they don't want you to know the kickstarter listed almost everything that is in the current scope. Like I said aside from ships and planets.

The link works for me.

Plus i know exactly what the KS showed since i am an early backer pledging before the transition to CiG's webpage. I also pledged for some of the 68 (you read correct, 68) stretch goals, many of them containing several features, added in said page.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals

Ok man I believe I have been simple in my questions and answers. You have given us nothing. A link that proves what I'm saying and disproves what you are saying. Nothing has been added to the scope after 20 million mark.
Read the stretch goals list past the 20 million mark. It is obviously that you have not done so. You just pulled this "20 million" out of.. you know from and you're trying to build up an argument around it.

Read the list.

I read the stretch goals. There isn't anything that seems to bring the original scope so far out that it should cost 100 million. You read them and pay attention. I'll break it down just for you. The 6 million dollar game has over 20 star systems, space stations, aliens, ships, FPS module, Squad 42, consistent universe, everything you think should be in a space simulation. The 20 million dollar game added the ability to publish itself and planetary landings. So what is added to this that everyone is claiming caused the scope to change drastically? Because I DO NOT SEE ANYTHING..... I have looked and all I see is 1 class called the repair mechanic. There is nothing else that I can see. So please help me see you are not just blindly throwing up that link and give me something I can believe in and tell other people.

Babuinix · May 2016

Well I guess you haven't been keeping up with news about PG in Star Citizen

- Think about PG planets with atmosphere, oceans, mountains, jungles looking like a Crysis.
- PG Asteroids in huge sizes with caves, tunnels, abandoned outposts.
- Volumetric Gas giants etc

filmoret · May 2016

Babuinix said:

Well I guess you haven't been keeping up with news about PG in Star Citizen

- Think about PG planets with atmosphere, oceans, mountains, jungles looking like a Crysis.
- PG Asteroids in huge sizes with caves, tunnels, abandoned outposts.
- Volumetric Gas giants etc

That is a lot of work. Did they list that anywhere in the stretch goals? This is the kind of answers that should be more clear to people asking simple questions. I guess they could have added that stuff later probably would have been a lot easier.

megarax · May 2016

WTF, still arguing about a stillborn project?

Wizardry · May 2016

Op forgot one area or two.
That is Chris's wife and BOTH their constant desire to be hollywood stars,Chris more so likes to play Hollywood manager.I am sure no matter what he has said in the past,these constant cravings are costing the game a LOT of millions,that are NOT coming out of his own accounts.
When i saw how he and his 2 cohorts maneuvered those stocks they sold to the company,i was instantly skeptical of anything and everything this guy does.

Babuinix · May 2016

someforumguy · May 2016

I just hope they have something to do for those 300 people. Scaling up very fast without having goals set in stone could that ever be efficient? I mean, it is not as simple as just producing more of the same product. And with a software project as complex as this, employees also need time to get up to speed and get used to working together. And this is after you already know what everyone needs to work on.

spankybus · May 2016

Wizardry said:

...
When i saw how he and his 2 cohorts maneuvered those stocks they sold to the company,i was instantly skeptical of anything and everything this guy does.

?? What's this about? Sorry, never heard anything about issues with stock sales.

Adjuvant1 · May 2016

someforumguy said:

I just hope they have something to do for those 300 people. Scaling up very fast without having goals set in stone could that ever be efficient? I mean, it is not as simple as just producing more of the same product. And with a software project as complex as this, employees also need time to get up to speed and get used to working together. And this is after you already know what everyone needs to work on.

They don't have "300 employees for whom CIG needs to find things to do to keep them busy". CIG has around 80-90 full time employees, including upper management, spread over 4 studios. The rest come and go as temps, independent contractors (artists), part time whatevers, outsourcing.

Babuinix · May 2016

Adjuvant1 said:

someforumguy said:

I just hope they have something to do for those 300 people. Scaling up very fast without having goals set in stone could that ever be efficient? I mean, it is not as simple as just producing more of the same product. And with a software project as complex as this, employees also need time to get up to speed and get used to working together. And this is after you already know what everyone needs to work on.

They don't have "300 employees for whom CIG needs to find things to do to keep them busy". CIG has around 80-90 full time employees, including upper management, spread over 4 studios. The rest come and go as temps, independent contractors (artists), part time whatevers, outsourcing.

That would be completely incorrect, Foundry 42 Manchester alone has about 120+ CIG employees now. Foundry 42 Frankfurt is on their way over 50+ CIG employees (they just used the clause that allowed them to expand their office and are now using a whole floor that they leased until 2020). Rest is spread around LA and Austin. Thanks to all the money CIG needs less and less to outsource work and can just hire dedicated dev's to their staff and work in-house. Thanks to the backers support that made that possible.

Forgot the pic:

Image: http://computergames.ro/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/citizenemployees.jpg

Kefo · May 2016

Shodanas said:

Kefo said:

Shodanas said:

Talonsin said:

howstupidisthis said:

Chris Roberts has a great track record and known for getting things done.

Are you referring to his failed Digital Anvil Studios? His failed movie company Ascendant Pictures or his car dealership?

Car dealership: http://www.carsonlinefree.com/sites/inventory.cfm?dealerID=3507

Same address used for his other businesses here: https://www.corporationwiki.com/Texas/Austin/christopher-roberts/30216003.aspx?showall=true

Besides working on the original Wing Commander games back in the early 90's with many other people helping, what are you referring to as this "great track record"?

No need to throw mud at the man. He may not be Peter Molyneux but he does have a decent palmares.

CR is the mind behind the Wing Commander series. It was his vision driving the production of said games. Then we have Starlancer a solid story driven space combat sim and Freelancer, an excellent game played by many up to present day with a number of high quality mods.

Before Origin while studying in England he created Stryker's Run for the BBC micro and after forming Origin Systems he made Times of Lore. Both games pushed the boundaries in what was possible back then and received critical acclaim.

Really he helped found Origin Systems? That's odd because I don't see his name listed anywhere for founders of the company.

If you want to talk in this discussion then please don't post crap like that.

If you want to talk in this discussion then a) stop acting as a juvenile who had his favorite toy taken away. b) stop being a provocateur by putting words in peoples mouths / writings. c) learn to read written English.

Where in my post do i even remotely say that CR founded or helped founding or whatever Origin Systems?

I'd point out where you said it but @rpmcmurphy ;already pointed it out. It is funny you tell me to learn how to read written English when you clearly have trouble with it yourself. Here's a hint for you, the written part is redundant since you cant read spoken English)

Kefo · May 2016

CrazKanuk said:

Kefo said:

CrazKanuk said:

Kefo said:

CrazKanuk said:

filmoret said:

maybebaked said:

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

Maybe read a little of the thread next time. Not to mention it is equally hilarious people throw more money and never ask where it went or if it works.

Funny, do you give money to charity and then ask them where that money goes? I think that the part that is hilarious about it is the level of accountability being requested. You pledged money, you didn't buy a seat on the board. Sorry, they have no responsibility to justify anything because you've entrusted them with your money. That is if you've entrusted them at all with anything, as it seems that plenty have given nothing yet ask for the most.

Well actually when I give to a charity I look into how much of the money is spent on administration, salaries, etc and what actually goes towards helping whatever the charity is supporting.

Not it sure if you are aware but Canadian charities are fully accountable to the government. If they have anything that looks funny then their charity status can be revoked and there goes their donations.

So yes I do ask them where they spend the money I give and most of them are quite happy to tell you how it's spent.

I thought you you as a fellow Canadian wouldn't have used that horrible example since it is extremely easy to poke holes in it.

Lol, true enough. Actually, I donate to a hospital program and give directly to them opposed to using something like United Way. Damn you logic!!!

Either way, they don't have the same rules and regulations, so they really don't have to answer for themselves. Is it a problem? Probably less of a problem than what is being made of it. Also, it's people who have zero investment in it who are kicking up the biggest stink. Maybe people should start petitioning the government to place more regulations on these projects? I'm pretty sure it would be a more productive venture. No? I thought you as a fellow Canadian would have seen that by now.

Actually, I live pretty close to London (45 minutes), we should meet up and duke it out in person, lol.

CIG really should be answering to the backers though since they are the ones funding them. I know it's different rules then charities but if they want to say how it's the most open development ever then they should post some financials. I'm not asking for full disclosure here and I realize most of the people reading the reports would draw incorrect conclusions from them but it would be the easiest way to put the money issue to rest.

lol I'm a scrawny science nerd so you could probably kick my ass. Maybe I could just bribe you with the ice cream we make here

I have two views on it. First, if they were to open their books entirely it would be unprecedented. So do I really expect them to operate with full disclosure? No. On the other hand, they have raised over $100 million from fans, which is also unprecedented, so I'd love to see they books. BUT! And that's a big but. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that supports them NOT operating under full disclosure. There is plenty of evidence that shows that fans cannot handle truths about operating a company and spending money. If the fans, and by fans I mean people without any vested interest in the game who complain about it, were to have that sort of access, then every expenditure would need to be accompanied with a 3-page blog post explaining the reasoning behind it. Even that might not suffice.

That being said, we DO know that back in the fall of last year, someone requested information from the FTC regarding any sort of investigation into CIG under the Freedom of Information Act. The FTC had no related to any investigation. Therefore, there is obviously no wrong-doing that would even warrant an investigation, I suppose. Unless some US citizen requests a more recent update. See, THAT would be something productive.

That's ok, I'm just a computer nerd, and I'm a pacifist. Also, if you're a scientist, I don't want any of your genetically-engineered ice cream :P

Well in regards to the fans who can't handle truths about operating a company its going to happen regardless if they post some financials or not. People will come to conclusions on their own based on what they see. The hope would be that if they posted some financials the majority would be able to see the data and take away that they are using the cash in a manner that has the backers best interests.

I have absolutely no stake in the game, a fact I'm sure some will jump on if they didn't know already, but I can look at things objectively and come to my own conclusion. Will it necessarily be the correct one? No because I need all the facts first. Posting financials wont be the end all be all but it will help paint a better picture of what money is going for and if they have enough left to see them through Chris's vision.

With the FTC thing there was a debate going on about the wording that was sent in the reply. It came across as ambigious and while that could just be how they normally respond it leaves room for doubt. There is a clause that says if an investigation is on going then they will tell anyone who requests information that they have nothing on record.

We dont make genetically modified ice cream, just really delicious ice cream and frozen dessert too! Or at least we dont directly make genetically modified Ice cream :winky:

Adjuvant1 · May 2016

Babuinix said:

Adjuvant1 said:

someforumguy said:

I just hope they have something to do for those 300 people. Scaling up very fast without having goals set in stone could that ever be efficient? I mean, it is not as simple as just producing more of the same product. And with a software project as complex as this, employees also need time to get up to speed and get used to working together. And this is after you already know what everyone needs to work on.

They don't have "300 employees for whom CIG needs to find things to do to keep them busy". CIG has around 80-90 full time employees, including upper management, spread over 4 studios. The rest come and go as temps, independent contractors (artists), part time whatevers, outsourcing.

That would be completely incorrect, Foundry 42 Manchester alone has about 120+ CIG employees now. Foundry 42 Frankfurt is on their way over 50+ CIG employees (they just used the clause that allowed them to expand their office and are now using a whole floor that they leased until 2020). Rest is spread around LA and Austin. Thanks to all the money CIG needs less and less to outsource work and can just hire dedicated dev's to their staff and work in-house. Thanks to the backers support that made that possible.

Forgot the pic:

It's not incorrect, you're conflating. The way CIG "words" it allows for the conflated understanding. You hear "300 people working on a project" or "300 dedicated staff", you're led to think "300 employees" or even "300 full time employees", but that isn't right.

Erillion · May 2016

"Full time Employee " in the video game industry means 80 hours/week? More in crunch mode....

"A part time Employee " in the video game industry means 50 hours/ week? More in crunch mode....

Have fun

Drakmar · May 2016

Wizardry said:

Op forgot one area or two.
That is Chris's wife and BOTH their constant desire to be hollywood stars,Chris more so likes to play Hollywood manager.I am sure no matter what he has said in the past,these constant cravings are costing the game a LOT of millions,that are NOT coming out of his own accounts.
When i saw how he and his 2 cohorts maneuvered those stocks they sold to the company,i was instantly skeptical of anything and everything this guy does.

LoL, pure fabrication, no truth what so ever....

You guys constantly make up shit because there is none, of course you want there to be, but there is none.

gervaise1 · May 2016

Erillion said:

"Full time Employee " in the video game industry means 80 hours/week? More in crunch mode....

"A part time Employee " in the video game industry means 50 hours/ week? More in crunch mode....

Have fun

Not in Europe - at least if they do 80 hours they won't be paid for 80 (max is 48); a full time equivalent head is probably c. 1650 hours per year - say 37 to 40 hours per week. That is not my experience in the US either - it mght be of course - typically you could be looking at 1750 to 1840 hours for an equivalent head.

Whether the employees are full time, part time or equivalent heads is another question.

CrazKanuk · May 2016

Kefo said:

Well in regards to the fans who can't handle truths about operating a company its going to happen regardless if they post some financials or not. People will come to conclusions on their own based on what they see. The hope would be that if they posted some financials the majority would be able to see the data and take away that they are using the cash in a manner that has the backers best interests.

I have absolutely no stake in the game, a fact I'm sure some will jump on if they didn't know already, but I can look at things objectively and come to my own conclusion. Will it necessarily be the correct one? No because I need all the facts first. Posting financials wont be the end all be all but it will help paint a better picture of what money is going for and if they have enough left to see them through Chris's vision.

With the FTC thing there was a debate going on about the wording that was sent in the reply. It came across as ambigious and while that could just be how they normally respond it leaves room for doubt. There is a clause that says if an investigation is on going then they will tell anyone who requests information that they have nothing on record.

We dont make genetically modified ice cream, just really delicious ice cream and frozen dessert too! Or at least we dont directly make genetically modified Ice cream :winky:

I wouldn't be optimistic that financials would do more help than harm. That's the main reason I'm against releasing anything. Considering the wild and crazy conspiracy theories that have been flying around for months with the limited information that there is available, there is no evidence that more data would help that, considering the data that is available is generally ignored anyway (on both sides).

You're not alone in posting and not having a penny in the game. I've seen it time and again. My thought is that if the majority of people on the "haters" side had money invested, there would have been more investigation into CIG already. If FTC complaints were coming from people who had significant investments in the game, there would have been more action. The same goes for any consumer protection agency in any country. Actually, the hate is probably a combination of people just wanting to argue on the Internet and not being able to do anything productive to change anything. Look at DS and his whole promise of legal action, *poof* smoke! Because there's nothing to investigate.

Hmmmmmmm, using science to make ice cream? Sounds fishy to me

Babuinix · May 2016

Adjuvant1 said:

Babuinix said:

Adjuvant1 said:

someforumguy said:

I just hope they have something to do for those 300 people. Scaling up very fast without having goals set in stone could that ever be efficient? I mean, it is not as simple as just producing more of the same product. And with a software project as complex as this, employees also need time to get up to speed and get used to working together. And this is after you already know what everyone needs to work on.

They don't have "300 employees for whom CIG needs to find things to do to keep them busy". CIG has around 80-90 full time employees, including upper management, spread over 4 studios. The rest come and go as temps, independent contractors (artists), part time whatevers, outsourcing.

That would be completely incorrect, Foundry 42 Manchester alone has about 120+ CIG employees now. Foundry 42 Frankfurt is on their way over 50+ CIG employees (they just used the clause that allowed them to expand their office and are now using a whole floor that they leased until 2020). Rest is spread around LA and Austin. Thanks to all the money CIG needs less and less to outsource work and can just hire dedicated dev's to their staff and work in-house. Thanks to the backers support that made that possible.

Forgot the pic:

It's not incorrect, you're conflating. The way CIG "words" it allows for the conflated understanding. You hear "300 people working on a project" or "300 dedicated staff", you're led to think "300 employees" or even "300 full time employees", but that isn't right.

Its not conflating, it's a simple fact and you are wrong when you say they have only "80/90" people under their contracts. They had that number around 2013 and since then have opened Foundry 42 UK & Frankfurt that have almost 200 guys by now. And this is not including the outsource company's from Canada / Malasya etc

So get your facts straight before posting please.

Erillion · May 2016

gervaise1 said:

Erillion said:

"Full time Employee " in the video game industry means 80 hours/week? More in crunch mode....

"A part time Employee " in the video game industry means 50 hours/ week? More in crunch mode....

Have fun

Not in Europe - at least if they do 80 hours they won't be paid for 80 (max is 48); a full time equivalent head is probably c. 1650 hours per year - say 37 to 40 hours per week. That is not my experience in the US either - it mght be of course - typically you could be looking at 1750 to 1840 hours for an equivalent head.

Whether the employees are full time, part time or equivalent heads is another question.

I AM from Europe.

They are getting PAID "full time" for 35 to 40 hours (depending on country) ..e.g. 38.5 h/week. For Austria it is 1720 to 1860 hours ... similar to your numbers given above (1720 is the average number HR people often use, as it includes typical amount of sick days etc.)

But they are WORKING 80+ hours/week typically in the video game industry. They do not get extra pay for those extra hours. And i am quite sure they are not "officially" logging that hours to avoid any problems with the labour regulations inspector. Not many can (want to ?) do this for more than a few years.

If the game is really successful (sales over figure XXXX, Metacritic Value over YYYY) they MAY get a bonus.
But primarily the reputation from working on a successful project helps you get your next job.

Have fun

rodarin · May 2016

All this 'employee' talk is just more noise. Another number they will spin however they want to depending on what they want to portray.

How much theyre getting paid MIGHT be relevant but since it will never be known its another one of those 'dont ask dont tell' issues. Just one of many this game has.

All we know is CR claimed they needed 3 mil a month to maintain their current level (what that level is is also unknown) of development. Another statement that can be spun and has been spun both directions by both sides. Ultimately is was a very poorly veiled attempt for these guys to get more money coming in.

There are two goals right now, and the things anyone for or against this project needs to worry about.

Either SQ 42 releases in some workable form, and or an actual persistent game world to play in.

Both have merit because an SQ 42 release shows they have toe ability to actually DELIVER a product. A persistent game world allows them to show they can actually do that, 32 or 64 bit is irrelevant for now. But getting persistence allows them to add actual core MMO features to their little test bed. While it wont be proof they can do it in a full blown MMO scenario it will at least show they can do it in the first place.

Anything and everything else at this point is completely immaterial.

This game has been in a holding pattern since who knows when. The additions to the 'alpha' and all the claims they keep trying to maintain and all the half answers they keep giving to hand picked questions really dont mean shit.

Until they deliver a working SQ 42 or implement a working persistent world this project is still not even close to being anything but a concept and a handful of dreams.

Babuinix · May 2016

Squadron 42 is well on it's way, like all SP games you won't know much about it before completion. (How much have you seen of Mass Effect:Andromeda?) If you can't deal with it it's your problem not CIG.

Persistence is already being used in the Private Test servers. Quests, Shopping, Repairs etc all cost/earn you game credits.

Just because some don't want to see it doesn't mean its not happening.

Arglebargle · May 2016

I am skeptical of any CIG pronouncements until they can be independently verified. I suspect their math is very, self-servingly, fuzzy. Though that wouldn't be that surprising in the modern business environment.

Vrika · May 2016

Adjuvant1 said:

someforumguy said:

I just hope they have something to do for those 300 people. Scaling up very fast without having goals set in stone could that ever be efficient? I mean, it is not as simple as just producing more of the same product. And with a software project as complex as this, employees also need time to get up to speed and get used to working together. And this is after you already know what everyone needs to work on.

They don't have "300 employees for whom CIG needs to find things to do to keep them busy". CIG has around 80-90 full time employees, including upper management, spread over 4 studios. The rest come and go as temps, independent contractors (artists), part time whatevers, outsourcing.

CIG has around 300 people for whom they need to find things to do to keep them busy.

It doesn't really matter if someone's full time employee, contractor, or something else the management still needs to be done.

CrazKanuk · May 2016

Arglebargle said:

I am skeptical of any CIG pronouncements until they can be independently verified. I suspect their math is very, self-servingly, fuzzy. Though that wouldn't be that surprising in the modern business environment.

About 200 list CIG as their current employer on Linkedin. Not sure how accurate or helpful that number is.

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