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Right now I got talked into playing Dark Souls 3, by a fellow worker. It's a hard game, it started off just the two of us. Everyone else is under the impression that it's too hard. However since everyone else are constantly hearing us talk about it, there asking questions. Now we have four others playing the game and loving it.
Were all constantly in a jam at some point in the game and we discuss options for that person....It's getting hard to concentrate on our jobs
Being in a jam ALL THE TIME is the key to us having fun !......We all love it......All of us.
We have to really concentrate on both character development and game world.......This is how an mmo is to be made.
IT'S WHAT KEEPS YOU PLAYING.
And as always, no cash shop, because that's a trick !
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Oh yes, just looked it up, you can hack and cheat, at least on the PC version. Problem solved.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
However there is a perfect difficulty they need to find, hard and challenging but not impossible. If 95% of all dungeon runs fail by even experioence players it is too hard. If 5% fail it is too easy, you need something in the middle (60% maybe?).
Raiding is a different matter of course, just talking about general dungeons there. Players should die now and then unless they play divinely good even in the open world.
Blizzard simplified WOW'S raiding so it would appeal to more than 10% of the playerbase.
So the real question for Pantheons devs is how small of a long term playerbase do they wish to appeal to?
(I'm thinking the Wildstar team had some 2nd thoughts on this seeing how things all turned out.)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If anything, we can conclude that the concept of allowing everyone to beat the game has basically killed MMOs. It was never supposed to be about finishing some crowning achievement or slaying a final boss, but a persistent world that continues to challenge you.
An interesting thing is as MMOs get easier the shorter time players stay in them, that might also be unreleated but i don't think it is even if it is just part of the reason so many players just stay a few weeks.
Now, some players do quit the same moment they feel they die too much but games that are way harder then modern MMOs did keep a lot of players. Guildwars were initially pretty hard and Wow started out at least way harder then it is today (generally, not sure if you compare the hardest raids then and now).
There is another interesting factor here: Almost all MMOs have the same general difficulty. That means the competition for more challenging MMOs is far less then of casual ones. There is certainly likely that only 10% of the gamers might like harder games but there are 100 games to compete with for easy gameplay with a few tougher raids, there is almost no other game with a general high or medium-high difficulty.
Pantheon is aiming mainly against older players and hardcore fans. I think the probable playerbase for that is better with harder content then easy.
Now, if you were to make Wow2 you want it pretty easy but Pantheon is more related to EQ and Vanguard then Wow.
As for Wildstar, I don't think it's problem really was difficulty. With Pantheon I think the magical playerbase would be between 250K-1M. If it is good enough it should be able to get that, there is very few similar games that isn't ancient so as long as it can be fun for the oldschoolers it should do well (it is made on a pretty limited budget so 250K players should be more then enough to support it).
Also, AA might not be the best example. Most of its dungeons were hard simply because many mobs could one-shot you.
Kyleran. The problems with WildStar is development started in 2005 and cost several million dollars Lets say between $100 Million and $250 Million because thats what other MMOs cost. The game was build for the less than 1% of WOWs 2005 Player base where a bit of twitch gaming with action combat like setup and a very hard grind is the problem. Hell players had to grind hours just to get keyed to raid, then you did the 20 man raid to do the 40 man raid. WOW in Vanilla and TBC didn't have the same raid on different modes, they were completely different raids. Add to that the core of the game was built around large raids which outside of lets say vanilla WOW severs run by blizzard themselves will never work again. This is because people like me know how much of a pain it is in the ass to run these raids because I did it. Why I would do it on a blizzard runs server is because the majority of that server will be old school vanilla players not today's MMORPG gamer which jumps from one game to another when they cannot stand in fire and live. You cannot have an MMO costing $100 million and not go for the casual crowd that jumps to a new game the first time he dies.
Pantheon will not be for these type of players, it will be for players like myself who like the old school MMORPGs though I might not like the EQ type, I would be better in a game like Shared Online or something
EQ and Vanguard, the predecessors to Pantheon, were about social challenges as much as they were about challenging mechanics. Social interaction, teamwork and time devotion were probably the biggest factors.
I understand why people may bring up Dark Souls, because its unforgiving nature is comparable to older games. However, I wouldn't consider that aspect to be the defining quality of an oldschool MMORPG.
I am hoping for approximately the same degree of difficulty we had in EQ.
Soloing and grouping had a learning curve, and even the best would wipe occasionally.
Raiding, especially on the cutting edge, could be extremely challenging.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I don't mind "linking" groups of mobs and mobs that can summon adds. I also don't mind mob groups with mixed functions, like having ranged attacks or healers amongst them. Obviously, leaders or special mobs are going to be tougher, but just adding more health and damage output to a mob is king of disappointing in terms of a challenge.
Usually when a MMO makes something "#hard" that just means it takes more time to kill the bosses, it isn't really much harder to spend 20 minutes to kill a boss instead of 5 minutes and it certainly isn't more fun. Adding more damage is at least somewhat better but it is still pretty weak.
A more random element makes it harder to just wiki a boss to get an exact method to kill it and if you also makes it smarter you forces the players to adapt during combat. Timing is something most MMOs can do better as well, both timing your own attacks for effectivety (instead of standard skill rotation) and to time together with the rest of the group.
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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
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My friend and I are weeks ahead of the others in this so called hard game. Both of us had made several mistakes in attribute points for our character development ( nothing extremely major ), we also had fought are way through several maps. Basically I'm saying we have some experience.
The others are struggling to avoid them by are discussions. We talked about the game all day yesterday, and I cant wait to find out how everyone made out last night. One is going for a healer / fighter build and another is working on a not very popular Assassin. There going down new territory !
To make a long story short not much work will get done today because we have a lot to talk about.
Dark Souls 3 is not an mmo, but try finding this in newer mmos like Black Dessert Online or any other mmo.......Enjoy your off line fishing features or what ever your doing in BDO. I enjoy the struggle.
THIS IS A LOST ART !
Yeah, that is one of the downsides to the internet (in my opinion). Back in the dark ages there weren't any videos and you weren't expected to do homework for a game you were playing.
I realize that quite a few people must like it this way, but I like to learn things myself - which means that normally I won't be able to get a group. I don't want to ruin other people's fun just because I am a luddite
I guess people could have a good faith disagreement about whether studying is "preparation" to be expected (and desired) in any challenging mmo, or whether it reduces the encounter to ez mode by robbing it of any spontaneity or surprises.
Personally, I would rather face the dungeon with the freshness with which it was faced the first time a group of players entered it. But finding like minded people is not easy.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Hmm, quote isn't working for me at the moment, but @Amathe
I agree about facing the dungeon with 'freshness'. The way I play (anymore) is the first time I experience a dungeon is 4 - 6 months after it is released - after the first rush and after everyone expects you to have it memorized.