Because that article was written today and we have been talking about this for a few days now.
@filmoret Can you please show me where it was first mentioned? Edit: I would like a time stamped link.
mmogfails makes mention of this on the 25'th at 8 AM. Even according to the BDO forums that is the earliest anyone hinted at it. And he full on comes out and states it on the 27'th at 7 AM.
Once again, even the BDO forums credit that site for bringing this to light, before they got locked anyway.
WIlliam pretty much plagiarized someone else's work and research, and claimed it as his own. Good article, but credit should be given where it is due.
Actually this particular thread was created because Daum emailed Bill Murphy and told him the rumors were true. Which if you read the OP you would see they have used nothing from your website. This article is about the NA/EU version not the Russian version.
A swing and a miss. Not my site. Just want credit given where everyone else is giving credit and where it is due.
The game is created by PA, what works in Russia and Korea will work on the US version as well. Daum did not make the game.
Also Bill got the idea after vomomoto made a detailed post about it. He even says so in that thread. I was wrong though. Vomomoto gave credit to mmogfails.
This thread has no need for such credit considering it is in response to Daum's situation and what they are doing about it. Again read the OP. Now should we disrespect Daum by placing mmogfails in a positive light considering he hacked their game and exploited it? Then gave the hack to several others and is now trying to see if the NA version has any hacks.
Ok I need to vent sorry. What the heck is wrong with these people putting important things client side in a pvp game? Seriously this is like on the front page of pvp for dummies. Muahaha, imagine if they made damage client side. You could do 1 mil damage to anything with a basic attack.
Granted a lot of this is on bad design practices, that's still no excuse for wanting to cheat in the first place. I just don't understand what kind of satisfaction it brings to win because you cheated, bottom of the barrel is the only thought that comes to mind.
It's probably that for some people their self worth comes in winning, not in how they won, but just that they won.
You forget the people who like to just generally piss people off.
Which usually stems from self esteem issues or sadism take your pick :P.
I think some people just like to troll others, has nothing to do with self esteem or sadism.
Some people just do it just because they can... kinda like how some rich folks like to do all sorts of kinky stuff, lol.
Because that article was written today and we have been talking about this for a few days now.
@filmoret Can you please show me where it was first mentioned? Edit: I would like a time stamped link.
mmogfails makes mention of this on the 25'th at 8 AM. Even according to the BDO forums that is the earliest anyone hinted at it. And he full on comes out and states it on the 27'th at 7 AM.
Once again, even the BDO forums credit that site for bringing this to light, before they got locked anyway.
WIlliam pretty much plagiarized someone else's work and research, and claimed it as his own. Good article, but credit should be given where it is due.
Actually this particular thread was created because Daum emailed Bill Murphy and told him the rumors were true. Which if you read the OP you would see they have used nothing from your website. This article is about the NA/EU version not the Russian version.
A swing and a miss. Not my site. Just want credit given where everyone else is giving credit and where it is due.
The game is created by PA, what works in Russia and Korea will work on the US version as well. Daum did not make the game.
Also Bill got the idea after vomomoto made a detailed post about it. He even says so in that thread. I was wrong though. Vomomoto gave credit to mmogfails.
This thread has no need for such credit considering it is in response to Daum's situation and what they are doing about it. Again read the OP. Now should we disrespect Daum by placing mmogfails in a positive light considering he hacked their game and exploited it? Then gave the hack to several others and is now trying to see if the NA version has any hacks.
I getcha. Very true and a good point. Like I said, being a writer stuff like this is a pet peeve.
@Realizer and @DMKano
Sorry, but I used to blog for joystiq, and plagiarism pisses me off.
All I want is a link. A forum post, or anything. Can anyone provide me one? I am providing one that supports my argument right here: http://mmogfails.blogspot.com/
Can anyone else provide some place that beat him to it?
I check reddit and the official forums constantly. I am an avid poster on both. Never saw such a complete list of hackable things being mentioned before mmogfails.
Here is my post from April 20th talking about client side exploits not verified by server:
Also if you look down in that same post - I posted a picture that talks about "avoid mana usage"
Again I've known about this way before - but didn't want to post it until I saw an official response (which was CM_Jouska's response in the post I linked)
The pre-launch post from beta about this exploit has been removed from both reddit and official forms - if someone has a screenshot or a cached linked to that - please post it.
Good to know. Thanks.
For some reason official forums and Reddit credit mmogfails. But it looks like you should be credited. Good job Kano!
Ok I need to vent sorry. What the heck is wrong with these people putting important things client side in a pvp game? Seriously this is like on the front page of pvp for dummies. Muahaha, imagine if they made damage client side. You could do 1 mil damage to anything with a basic attack.
Pearl Abyss should have realized the western market has no enforced integrity. In Korea the ban follows the player. They can't just use a new dummy email, buy a new key, and create a new account. In the west obviously we don't have this accountability. It's sort of an embarrassing testimony to our culture in some ways.
I wonder how Korean developers will act on this going forward. There are some huge advantages to doing client side work when people don't cheat.
Wait what?
How does a ban follow a player in Korea? Is it via Mac? That can be changed or spoofed quite easily.
Edit: Never mind, I found it. Holy crap the equivalent of their social security number is required to play a game!!!!!!!!!!!! If they are banned, the game publisher permanently bans them from all their current and future games. Harsh.
But now I can see why PA did what they did. In Korea this would never be a problem.
It's possible to fix it. Of course it's possible to fix it. But trying to change fundamental parts of the game engine can easily lead to a few rounds of completely game-breaking bugs before they get it right. That's fine when alpha is still a year away, but something you don't try after launch unless you have a real crisis.
Of course, if the programmers actually working on the project know how to fix it, then why didn't they do it right the first time? A lot of bugs can happen as little mistakes in code that is mostly right, but not having the server verify that cheats aren't happening is not a little mistake.
In other news, banning really won't get you very far. Sure, you can manually see and ban the people who give themselves infinite health. But what about the people who only give themselves an extra 50% health and mana? That doesn't jump out at your opponents so much as an obvious, visible cheat, but the effects of it can still be pretty game-breaking.
This stuff has killed my drive to play BDO. It is the same reason I stopped playing BnS. I love PvP but I hate fighting these kinds of hacks.
How many of them have you seen in game? Is it the game or the forums that's killing your drive?
Yeah there are hackers but not nearly as common as these threads would make you think.
As to the people expressing amazement about how this hack is being done... what does it matter what type of hack it is or how dumb you think the code or security is if the end result is the same old shit: hacker wins consistently in PVP?
In some way or another, ALL games are exploited and hacked and continue that way for decades. Western ones just as much as Korean ones despite the semi-racist comments. Blizzard, 12 years after WOW's release, still goes through periodic ban sweeps and I could point you to many active hacks that work today. But you can use google just like I can so do it yourself if you actually want to know.
It just so happens that the two latest hot mmorpgs that have gotten enough attention for the hackers to be very active in them are Korean, B&S and BDO. The recent Western big release which most people wouldn't call an MMO, The Division, is being hacked just as much right now - live not beta. Don't believe me? The Guardian from two days ago: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/26/hackers-cheats-ruined-the-division-pc-ubisoft
So laugh at KR games and their stupid ways all you want... meanwhile back at whichever game, developed in whichever country you want to name, cheaters in PVP are still killing non cheaters using whatever hacking method works there.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Ok I need to vent sorry. What the heck is wrong with these people putting important things client side in a pvp game? Seriously this is like on the front page of pvp for dummies. Muahaha, imagine if they made damage client side. You could do 1 mil damage to anything with a basic attack.
Players are soloing world bosses in BD as I type this - just passed by a ranger soloing Bheg.... I honestly didn't even care to report it, it's just becoming a complete joke.
It's seems that everyone knows about these hacking programs now. Don't remember anyone mentioning about soloing world bosses until now. Yeah that pretty much will GG BDO if true and they can do nothing about it.
Well I am actually half Chinese, my mom was born in Anhui and immigrated over to the US when she was 4. And you know, I find that comment funny lol. Just like in school everyone thought i knew karate and left me alone haha.
I wouldn't say Chinese though, I would say Korean. Every Korean MMO I play ends up being a hacked piece of garbage. I really hoped BDO would be different, but I was wrong.
I will stick it out, since I already invested $230 into the game, but this is a huge slap in the face. I even waited a few weeks to see if there were cheats AND THERE WEREN'T ANY. So I bought it, only to have these very cheats come out 14 days after I gave Da$m my money. Urge to kill rising.
Honestly, I think he was referring to how China doesn't play above-board or follow the rules many other nations do as a metaphor for cheaters, (the few - China) compared to the general gaming population (the many - Most of the world). Examples of this can be found in their government, creating man-made islands in international contested waters they do not have sovereignty over. As well as in their private sector due to the consistent violation of international business law through corporate espionage, hacking, and flat stealing and implementation of information from rivals across the world.
In regards to cheating in mmo's, there's no real shock here it's become commonplace. Neither is combat related physics being hosted on the client side, ESO came out just two years ago and the majority of their combat coding was client-side till it was changed several months post-launch, and their game's pvp died due to the crippling lag it caused. You can understand why developers see the need to host as much possible on the client side to improve performance.
I do agree though, actual stats like hp/mana being hosted on the client side is just a cheap way to save $, and not acceptable from any mmo developer. Yet alone, one that nickel and dimes you with over-priced cash shop items that go far beyond convenience. When game's launch with gaping wholes in security like this it calls it question their motifs, but when westernized games make it to the West and still haven't been looked into it's borderline negligence. ArchAge was the biggest offender in this department I had ever seen, let's hope a fast response to this and an actual fix, not a band aid, occurs in the near future.
Haxus Council Member 21 year MMO veteran PvP Raid Leader Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
I can do the hack. I know nothing about computers. I left the game because what is stopping others from doing it. It should be impossible unless you know what you are doing so, guess I'll be doing Diablo 3 Season 6 when it comes out.
Ok I need to vent sorry. What the heck is wrong with these people putting important things client side in a pvp game? Seriously this is like on the front page of pvp for dummies. Muahaha, imagine if they made damage client side. You could do 1 mil damage to anything with a basic attack.
Pearl Abyss should have realized the western market has no enforced integrity. In Korea the ban follows the player. They can't just use a new dummy email, buy a new key, and create a new account. In the west obviously we don't have this accountability. It's sort of an embarrassing testimony to our culture in some ways.
I wonder how Korean developers will act on this going forward. There are some huge advantages to doing client side work when people don't cheat.
It's not an embarrassing testimony to our culture. Do you know what's embarrassing? Gaming addiction in South Korea is such a huge problem that they had to introduce new laws that led to the usage of KSSN ID's when creating gaming accounts in Korea. That's a relatively new thing there, which of course has then led to major identity theft issues as well.
The game doesn't need a better "anti-cheat system". It needs to get core game mechanics OUT of the client and on to the server!
I'm glad I don't care about this stuff. I'm still enjoying the game.
Well put. This is bad game design pure and simple. Camelot Unchained is doing their engine right so crap like this doesn't happen.
It's not a bad game design, It's the limitation of the internet technology. If they put everything on the server you'll get almost turn based WoW-like combat with global cooldowns to filter out the lag.
PA are pushing for high action combat and this just has to be done on the client side. Every high action combat game has things firing off at the client side.
Currently only korean games have the balls for it and thus they inject software like gameguard or xigncode3 to monitor your system and make sure you are not toying with things.I'm sure they'll update xign to catch the godmode hack and all will go back to normal.
You'd be surprised how many games are not being because of possibility of unwarranted cheating.
I'm shocked that any of these things are sitting on the client. I just assumed that after years of understanding how exploitable it is, no game developers were dumb enough to code it this way.
Mind blowing.
I am actually a little shocked. . and it takes a lot to do that to me these days. I am not sure how this passed through any type of discussion. . unless it was just to save bandwidth. . even then . . I would think they would be:. . "could we. . . .? Naaaah".
if they validated everything on the server BDO would've basically been WoW 2.0 in terms of combat. Nothing to be shocked about. Or did you actually believe that thousands of miles of internet cables and millions of users watching netflix and youtube adds no delay to the network? You'd be surprised to know that most of play with such a high ping that no self respecting counter strike player (or any FPS player in that matter) would play through. And you perceive this as totally fine.
The game doesn't need a better "anti-cheat system". It needs to get core game mechanics OUT of the client and on to the server!
I'm glad I don't care about this stuff. I'm still enjoying the game.
Well put. This is bad game design pure and simple. Camelot Unchained is doing their engine right so crap like this doesn't happen.
You know that on several "Hack" Sites the package system of CU is already dismantled, right ?
You will face the same results as here, not that bad, but they can Workaround CDs, Speed and teleport hack.
Of course Daum need to improve the codebase, but its the asslings that use the hacks that should get blamed. Even in EQ you could use speed hacks, teleports and my favorite, back this days EQUlti, a program they use for CU as well btw. Where you can see the Mobs on your Radar, the pathing and the loot they have.
Before you say.. oh you are a hacker? no, i am not, but i am a dev and interessted in the code. As some of the hacks are very good designed.
Report as many cheater you see, don´t get on the same lvl and help the community.
The game doesn't need a better "anti-cheat system". It needs to get core game mechanics OUT of the client and on to the server!
I'm glad I don't care about this stuff. I'm still enjoying the game.
Well put. This is bad game design pure and simple. Camelot Unchained is doing their engine right so crap like this doesn't happen.
You know that on several "Hack" Sites the package system of CU is already dismantled, right ?
You will face the same results as here, not that bad, but they can Workaround CDs, Speed and teleport hack.
Of course Daum need to improve the codebase, but its the asslings that use the hacks that should get blamed. Even in EQ you could use speed hacks, teleports and my favorite, back this days EQUlti, a program they use for CU as well btw. Where you can see the Mobs on your Radar, the pathing and the loot they have.
Before you say.. oh you are a hacker? no, i am not, but i am a dev and interessted in the code. As some of the hacks are very good designed.
Report as many cheater you see, don´t get on the same lvl and help the community.
sure you can blame the hackers all you want but human nature is going to lead to cheaters especially in E sport style pvp games or domination. Good companies who do not cut corners plan for stuff like this and if shit happens anyways they still get it fixed asap. DAOC had radar hacks and warhammer online had warbuddy so obviously no company is perfect and can make their games 100% hack free. But they can also be diligent as much as possible and not let this issue linger very long either or their credibility is out the window. Part of the reason blizzard caught so much slack still to this day over bots is because they let it run rampant for so long that no one took them serious. Radar hackers in DAOC were reported and banned right away as soon as evidence was presented, same with warbuddy users. But my point is blaming the hackers isnt going to solve the problem, people are going to cheat its human nature it happens daily outside of games with crime, but pushing the company for a fast response will help the entire problem.
It's possible to fix it. Of course it's possible to fix it. But trying to change fundamental parts of the game engine can easily lead to a few rounds of completely game-breaking bugs before they get it right. That's fine when alpha is still a year away, but something you don't try after launch unless you have a real crisis.
Of course, if the programmers actually working on the project know how to fix it, then why didn't they do it right the first time? A lot of bugs can happen as little mistakes in code that is mostly right, but not having the server verify that cheats aren't happening is not a little mistake.
In other news, banning really won't get you very far. Sure, you can manually see and ban the people who give themselves infinite health. But what about the people who only give themselves an extra 50% health and mana? That doesn't jump out at your opponents so much as an obvious, visible cheat, but the effects of it can still be pretty game-breaking.
I suspect its quite possible to create algorithms to programmatically monitor information coming from the client and identify responses outside of the norm.
It's done all the time in the financial world where spending or deposit activity varies in terms of size, frequency, source, location etc, is identified, flagged and investigated.
Thing is, it isn't cheap to do this, and I can't see PA/Daum spending a lot of money to prevent in game cheating, like you noted, they could have already done so if they had the will.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is one reason why I have come to prefer PvE to PvP in MMOs. I am not the best PvPer but I can hold my own and I really enjoy a good fight against an good player (don't mind dying to a skilful respectful player). However modern PvP in MMOs just seems frequented by either, cheats, hackers or anally retentive trolls and for me this has spoilt my whole enjoyment of PvP. I am really enjoying BDO at the moment and have yet to do any PvP despite being lvl50, just hope a PKing hacker will not ruin my enjoyment.
look at all these people pretending they have any knowledge about programming and game design... if its very obvious having HP server-sided, why dont u ask them why they did it before assuming and complaining and pretending u know it better than the devs. I really doubt the developers were unaware of the possible issues and I doubt even more strongly that the developers are dumber than you guys...
Sorry, but I used to blog for joystiq, and plagiarism pisses me off.
All I want is a link. A forum post, or anything. Can anyone provide me one? I am providing one that supports my argument right here: http://mmogfails.blogspot.com/
Can anyone else provide some place that beat him to it?
I check reddit and the official forums constantly. I am an avid poster on both. Never saw such a complete list of hackable things being mentioned before mmogfails.
it would be healthy if you stopped caring that much...
Comments
The sky done fell, my friend.
Some people just do it just because they can... kinda like how some rich folks like to do all sorts of kinky stuff, lol.
Boredom motivates.
Good to know.
Thanks.
For some reason official forums and Reddit credit mmogfails. But it looks like you should be credited. Good job Kano!
How does a ban follow a player in Korea? Is it via Mac? That can be changed or spoofed quite easily.
Edit: Never mind, I found it. Holy crap the equivalent of their social security number is required to play a game!!!!!!!!!!!!
If they are banned, the game publisher permanently bans them from all their current and future games. Harsh.
But now I can see why PA did what they did. In Korea this would never be a problem.
Of course, if the programmers actually working on the project know how to fix it, then why didn't they do it right the first time? A lot of bugs can happen as little mistakes in code that is mostly right, but not having the server verify that cheats aren't happening is not a little mistake.
In other news, banning really won't get you very far. Sure, you can manually see and ban the people who give themselves infinite health. But what about the people who only give themselves an extra 50% health and mana? That doesn't jump out at your opponents so much as an obvious, visible cheat, but the effects of it can still be pretty game-breaking.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
How many of them have you seen in game? Is it the game or the forums that's killing your drive?
Yeah there are hackers but not nearly as common as these threads would make you think.
As to the people expressing amazement about how this hack is being done... what does it matter what type of hack it is or how dumb you think the code or security is if the end result is the same old shit: hacker wins consistently in PVP?
In some way or another, ALL games are exploited and hacked and continue that way for decades. Western ones just as much as Korean ones despite the semi-racist comments. Blizzard, 12 years after WOW's release, still goes through periodic ban sweeps and I could point you to many active hacks that work today. But you can use google just like I can so do it yourself if you actually want to know.
It just so happens that the two latest hot mmorpgs that have gotten enough attention for the hackers to be very active in them are Korean, B&S and BDO. The recent Western big release which most people wouldn't call an MMO, The Division, is being hacked just as much right now - live not beta. Don't believe me? The Guardian from two days ago: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/26/hackers-cheats-ruined-the-division-pc-ubisoft
So laugh at KR games and their stupid ways all you want... meanwhile back at whichever game, developed in whichever country you want to name, cheaters in PVP are still killing non cheaters using whatever hacking method works there.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It's seems that everyone knows about these hacking programs now. Don't remember anyone mentioning about soloing world bosses until now. Yeah that pretty much will GG BDO if true and they can do nothing about it.
Honestly, I think he was referring to how China doesn't play above-board or follow the rules many other nations do as a metaphor for cheaters, (the few - China) compared to the general gaming population (the many - Most of the world). Examples of this can be found in their government, creating man-made islands in international contested waters they do not have sovereignty over. As well as in their private sector due to the consistent violation of international business law through corporate espionage, hacking, and flat stealing and implementation of information from rivals across the world.
In regards to cheating in mmo's, there's no real shock here it's become commonplace. Neither is combat related physics being hosted on the client side, ESO came out just two years ago and the majority of their combat coding was client-side till it was changed several months post-launch, and their game's pvp died due to the crippling lag it caused. You can understand why developers see the need to host as much possible on the client side to improve performance.
I do agree though, actual stats like hp/mana being hosted on the client side is just a cheap way to save $, and not acceptable from any mmo developer. Yet alone, one that nickel and dimes you with over-priced cash shop items that go far beyond convenience. When game's launch with gaping wholes in security like this it calls it question their motifs, but when westernized games make it to the West and still haven't been looked into it's borderline negligence. ArchAge was the biggest offender in this department I had ever seen, let's hope a fast response to this and an actual fix, not a band aid, occurs in the near future.
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Racist.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
That's a pretty common phrase actually lol.
It's not a bad game design, It's the limitation of the internet technology. If they put everything on the server you'll get almost turn based WoW-like combat with global cooldowns to filter out the lag.
PA are pushing for high action combat and this just has to be done on the client side. Every high action combat game has things firing off at the client side. Currently only korean games have the balls for it and thus they inject software like gameguard or xigncode3 to monitor your system and make sure you are not toying with things.I'm sure they'll update xign to catch the godmode hack and all will go back to normal. You'd be surprised how many games are not being because of possibility of unwarranted cheating.
if they validated everything on the server BDO would've basically been WoW 2.0 in terms of combat. Nothing to be shocked about. Or did you actually believe that thousands of miles of internet cables and millions of users watching netflix and youtube adds no delay to the network? You'd be surprised to know that most of play with such a high ping that no self respecting counter strike player (or any FPS player in that matter) would play through. And you perceive this as totally fine.
You know that on several "Hack" Sites the package system of CU is already dismantled, right ?
You will face the same results as here, not that bad, but they can Workaround CDs, Speed and teleport hack.
Of course Daum need to improve the codebase, but its the asslings that use the hacks that should get blamed. Even in EQ you could use speed hacks, teleports and my favorite, back this days EQUlti, a program they use for CU as well btw. Where you can see the Mobs on your Radar, the pathing and the loot they have.
Before you say.. oh you are a hacker? no, i am not, but i am a dev and interessted in the code. As some of the hacks are very good designed.
Report as many cheater you see, don´t get on the same lvl and help the community.
It's done all the time in the financial world where spending or deposit activity varies in terms of size, frequency, source, location etc, is identified, flagged and investigated.
Thing is, it isn't cheap to do this, and I can't see PA/Daum spending a lot of money to prevent in game cheating, like you noted, they could have already done so if they had the will.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am really enjoying BDO at the moment and have yet to do any PvP despite being lvl50, just hope a PKing hacker will not ruin my enjoyment.
it would be healthy if you stopped caring that much...